Written by X-Ray Rod on 22.04.2012 at 18:58

No offence buddy, but that's just a stupid way to make a point. It's like when there's a debate about euthanasia and one of the persons in the debate says "well, what will you say if your mother is in a coma, HUH?!". That doesn't really help.
Nobody (except the suicidals) wants to die... Im just talking about the idea of no god...no something, nothing.That isn't the same as the life you are having. It's the fact of losing the things you have that REALLY scares me, not what there's afterwards.

I think it's a perfect way to make a point. If someone says to me they have no fear of death then react in such a way when they're told they're going to die it says to me that the two don't correspond.

I don't think the euthanasia point is the same thing and a different subject altogether. I think for someone to be so sure about euthanasia as a positive thing they would have already considered that scenario and idea of someone being in so much pain. You have a different kind of emotional attachment to family members/loved ones than you do about yourself. It's much easier to imagine how you'd feel about them in pain/dying than yourself. I don't get sad at the thought of me dying. It's more a kind of unknowable panic.

In any light this is far too serious for me, not really the kind of thing I enjoy discussing ;]

Written by [user id=4365] on 22.04.2012 at 19:04
I think it's a perfect way to make a point. If someone says to me they have no fear of death then react in such a way when they're told they're going to die it says to me that the two don't correspond.

Well, maybe I used the wrong words (two times now, how awful is that?). Like I tried to say before, the post-death doesn't scare me, pre-death scares the crap out of me... *THE* death... don't know what to think... As long as it's painless I suppose.

Now... we should stp being serious. Let's go troll Marcel or something.

Written by X-Ray Rod on 22.04.2012 at 19:10


Now... we should stp being serious. Let's go troll Marcel or something.

Sounds like my kind of fun.

Written by X-Ray Rod on 22.04.2012 at 16:46

I personally don't get how it can empower someone

It empowers me because I'm piecing the puzzle and figuring out what am I really like, as opposed to what I thought I was like all along. I feel more like a real person than an artificial creation of my own mind.

As for fearing death, I won't start fearing death until I start really living. At this point of my life... I'm just letting life pass me by. I think I'm used to trying to get through life without any awkward contact, and without risking failure by doing something actually ambitious. If and when death comes, it won't be much of a change, except I'll lose the awareness I've gained. And I like this awareness. Maybe it would be a loss to the world if I went, but in order to convince myself it is really the case, I should get some useful work done - which includes awkward contact and risking failure.

Written by Milena on 22.04.2012 at 22:16

Written by X-Ray Rod on 22.04.2012 at 16:46

I personally don't get how it can empower someone

It empowers me because I'm piecing the puzzle and figuring out what am I really like, as opposed to what I thought I was like all along. I feel more like a real person than an artificial creation of my own mind.

Cool for you then. Nice to discover yourself
In my case it was perfectly normal as a kid to say "no way!"... The following years just reinforced my apathy towards the God question, seeing it as something trivial at best. It was clear from the beginning that it wasn't going to be a question I would find interesting no matter the answer.

Written by X-Ray Rod on 22.04.2012 at 16:46
But yeah, I guess it's cool. I dunno.

What works for some doesn't always work for others. I've never been empowered by anything save being told I have a nice cock.

Nothing else really phases me, but I say good on anyone who finds spiritual freedom empowering.

Written by [user id=4365] on 22.04.2012 at 18:53
I don't think anyone at your age can really know for sure how you feel about death until you get to around my age.

I know you didn't want to continue a discussion, but I just thought I'd point out that I agree.

After going through wanting to die, I'm now in a place where I want to be happy. And you can't be happy when you're dead because you can't be when you're dead*, and I'm only 20. I imagine people who are in their 40s and 50s want to squeeze everything they can out of the life they're living before they inevitably reach the final stages of their lives.

* obviously different philosophies contest this point

Written by Troy Killjoy on 23.04.2012 at 03:40
And you can't be happy when you're dad because you can't be when you're dead*

I like to think there's no typo in this comment and you actually meant that being a dad = dead.

Written by X-Ray Rod on 23.04.2012 at 03:46
I like to think there's no typo in this comment and you actually meant that being a dad = dead.

Grr... rarely do I ever commit a typo, but when I do... fuck is it ever awful.

Written by Troy Killjoy on 23.04.2012 at 03:52

Written by X-Ray Rod on 23.04.2012 at 03:46
I like to think there's no typo in this comment and you actually meant that being a dad = dead.

Grr... rarely do I ever commit a typo, but when I do... fuck is it ever awful.

Is it awful?..... or insightful?

To hell with babies. Nah, in all honesty I don't mind the idea of having a little afro kid running around although if it doesn't come up, I wouldn't complain either.

I am spiritual i guess. But i think religion is just a load of shit. It was created by people who wanted to constrict the society in some way and thought they knew what is right and wrong. I think god is something imaginary and is created because we couldnt answer the question "what created the elements for the Big Bang?" or " Who was the one who created this life? " or some other questions like that, which are by themselves the wrong questions to ask.

Written by [user id=132201] on 16.08.2012 at 08:35

I am spiritual i guess. But i think religion is just a load of shit. It was created by people who wanted to constrict the society in some way and thought they knew what is right and wrong. I think god is something imaginary and is created because we couldnt answer the question "what created the elements for the Big Bang?" or " Who was the one who created this life? " or some other questions like that, which are by themselves the wrong questions to ask.

Do you know what was before the Big Bang (that's a theory, right?) and do you know how the universe will come to an end? I don't...

If you say that religion was created in order to constrict the society then you should start with laws and regulations in general. Should people return to the woods and live like animals in order to achieve the "bliss"?

Actually one could say that the primordial couple/first people/Adam and Eve/Ask and Embla/call them whatever you will did live in some sort of bliss until they learnt to make choices in life and to tell right from wrong with the freedom of doing both...

Also, you can't really say there can be morals without any religious backgrounds. Even the most devout atheist who doesn't knowingly follow any religious movement but has high moral principles follows the rules that had been stated in several religions before and had been embedded in the laws and traditions of every society long before that person became "atheist". One can't just say "Oh, I don't need any religion to be a good person." Sure... but these ideas about what makes one a good person are already principles of religion(s) themselves... Therefore, it'd be more correct to say that one doesn't need to go to church every Sunday in order to be a better person. It's not what a man believes but how he acts that determines his beliefs.

And yep... can't really say that religion were load of shit as you put it...

Someone clearly doesn't undestand that a theory is actually proof.

and there can be morals without religion because morality isn\'t restricted to religion. FFS even the most worst atheists have morality and morality there has nothing to do with religion AT ALL.

Rekigioys people really should get off theior moral high horse,

Seriously the most devout religious people are the the most unexcepting people around and the most unloving ones. It says in the Bible: Love thy neighbour and what don''t those fucking nimwits do? Right they don;t love their homosexual neighbour because he homosexual. Really devout believers/ christians are the people we can all do without, simple as that.

Fuckj them all and their holier than thou attitude thinking they are above everyone else just because they believe in imaginary friends. Yes your friends are imaginary because noone has ever proved their existence.

While I won't use harsh words since I'm actually very mellow at this time of the night. I gotta say this with at least one curse word:

Saying... Or even implying that moral is restricted to religion is plain bullshit and honestly... a bit offensive.

Written by Ernis on 16.08.2012 at 23:33

Written by [user id=132201] on 16.08.2012 at 08:35

I am spiritual i guess. But i think religion is just a load of shit. It was created by people who wanted to constrict the society in some way and thought they knew what is right and wrong. I think god is something imaginary and is created because we couldnt answer the question "what created the elements for the Big Bang?" or " Who was the one who created this life? " or some other questions like that, which are by themselves the wrong questions to ask.

Do you know what was before the Big Bang (that's a theory, right?) and do you know how the universe will come to an end? I don't...

If you say that religion was created in order to constrict the society then you should start with laws and regulations in general. Should people return to the woods and live like animals in order to achieve the "bliss"?

Actually one could say that the primordial couple/first people/Adam and Eve/Ask and Embla/call them whatever you will did live in some sort of bliss until they learnt to make choices in life and to tell right from wrong with the freedom of doing both...

Also, you can't really say there can be morals without any religious backgrounds. Even the most devout atheist who doesn't knowingly follow any religious movement but has high moral principles follows the rules that had been stated in several religions before and had been embedded in the laws and traditions of every society long before that person became "atheist". One can't just say "Oh, I don't need any religion to be a good person." Sure... but these ideas about what makes one a good person are already principles of religion(s) themselves... Therefore, it'd be more correct to say that one doesn't need to go to church every Sunday in order to be a better person. It's not what a man believes but how he acts that determines his beliefs.

And yep... can't really say that religion were load of shit as you put it...

Let me say please fuck off with your imaginary friends, but somehow I am not allowed to do that because it offends you and your imaginary friends, bu tI'll do it nonetheless... fuck off with your imaginary friends. This is a music forum so speak abput music and not about some imaginary entity that rules the world. If you want to do that FINE but do it vioa pm and not in public forums where people will get offended by such nonesense such as me.

Just to start things off, I was raised Catholic but would define myself as agnostic if anything. I do lean towards the spiritual side though.

Not everyone is religious because they actually believe in creationism or god or whatever... A lot of people are religious because they honestly think it provides them with good guidelines for how to live. Whether you want to believe it or not, there are a lot of good religious people who actually serve the community instead of doing shit like trying to convince everyone that homosexuality is a disease. With that being said, of course morality can exist without religion and vice versa, and of course there are numerous incidences of power-hungry assholes twisting the message of major religions in order to manipulate people. Another significant reason that people turn to religion (based on a few examples I've seen) is the sense of community. In some places a mass, ceremony, charity event, etc is basically a town get-together that wouldn't happen otherwise, and a good opportunity to meet people (not that I've ever made friends at church, but it's kind of nice how I usually run into someone I haven't seen for a while whenever I show up). And of course there's the obvious reasons like being raised that way and never really questioning it, and fearing death enough to want to believe there's something afterwards... Being raised in a community with very few religious extremists or fundamentalists, I can't say that there are any ways that religion specifically hindered me. Sure, I got bullied for my sexuality and had to take some pointless religion courses instead of something useful but I think that would have happened to me regardless...

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 17.08.2012 at 01:22


Let me say please fuck off with your imaginary friends, but somehow I am not allowed to do that because it offends you and your imaginary friends, bu tI'll do it nonetheless... fuck off with your imaginary friends. This is a music forum so speak abput music and not about some imaginary entity that rules the world. If you want to do that FINE but do it vioa pm and not in public forums where people will get offended by such nonesense such as me.

Haha pissed drunk Marcel is epic

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 17.08.2012 at 01:22

Let me say please fuck off with your imaginary friends, but somehow I am not allowed to do that because it offends you and your imaginary friends, bu tI'll do it nonetheless... fuck off with your imaginary friends. This is a music forum so speak abput music and not about some imaginary entity that rules the world. If you want to do that FINE but do it vioa pm and not in public forums where people will get offended by such nonesense such as me.

I'm going to ask a question and I'm going to do this as politely as possible so that no one feels raw about it. What happened?! Why do you use such an aggressive tone? Can't say I've never done that myself but I try to avoid displaying such attitude. If there's any kind of personal grudge you're feeling (tho I couldn't see why), by all means, feel free to tell this to me (via PM if you feel like it).

Another baffling thing is that it's a religion thread. Should we instead discuss some new albums in THIS particular thread. If it's a music forum then why does it include a "General forum" in the first place? If we can talk bout sex, recreational drugs and alcohol, then WHY not about religion? Or is it just that you don't want me to post about religion?

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 17.08.2012 at 00:48

and there can be morals without religion because morality isn\'t restricted to religion. FFS even the most worst atheists have morality and morality there has nothing to do with religion AT ALL.

YES! I am not disagreeing. What I had in mind was that moral principles, whenever they ever came to existence, were always tied to some religion. And, nope, I'm not tying morals to any particular religion. You can find the same ideals about loving others and trying to live a life full of honesty and good deeds in every major (and surely also minor) religion or philosophical movement.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 17.08.2012 at 00:48

Seriously the most devout religious people are the the most unexcepting people around and the most unloving ones. It says in the Bible: Love thy neighbour and what don''t those fucking nimwits do? Right they don;t love their homosexual neighbour because he homosexual. Really devout believers/ christians are the people we can all do without, simple as that.

What kind of devout religious people do you know then? You say that they ARE the MOST unloving people as if it were a fact. Yes, they CAN be but that doesn't depend on any religion. People are people. Some are major jerks, some are lesser jerks. Religious views (or absence of them) don't really make anyone a better or a worse person. Period.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 17.08.2012 at 00:48

Fuckj them all and their holier than thou attitude thinking they are above everyone else just because they believe in imaginary friends. Yes your friends are imaginary because noone has ever proved their existence.

Yes, I know what you mean and I don't really like that kind of people either. If someone's a jerk then going to church/mosque/temple/whatever shrine doesn't make that person less of a ratbag. At the same time one can be a wonderful person who helps others and is always nice and kind to everyone without ever having had any religious affiliation. Yep... even an atheist can be a better Christian than some fundamentalist puritan.

About you telling me to fuck off along with my imaginary friends. I'm cool with that... Hope you feel better now.

Written by [user id=27368] on 17.08.2012 at 03:59

sense of community. In some places a mass, ceremony, charity event, etc is basically a town get-together that wouldn't happen otherwise, and a good opportunity to meet people (not that I've ever made friends at church, but it's kind of nice how I usually run into someone I haven't seen for a while whenever I show up).

That can be a good thing and a bad thing. It's bad when people develop the "club" feeling and then they start feeling superior to "outsiders" and then whenever someone happens to be "different" they shun that person. And usually people like that follow a certain religion blindly without ever questioning how it all began. They don't even have an idea what they believe in.

However, it's a good thing in laid-back societies where religion isn't fundamentalist and where people are more free to follow their own thoughts and conscience. There a mass can really be a nice get-together with friends you had some booze with in the town the night before. It's a contrast when compared to some strict communities where everyone comes to church because it's an "obligation" that makes the members of that community better than the "non-believers".

Written by [user id=27368] on 17.08.2012 at 03:59

Being raised in a community with very few religious extremists or fundamentalists, I can't say that there are any ways that religion specifically hindered me. Sure, I got bullied for my sexuality and had to take some pointless religion courses instead of something useful but I think that would have happened to me regardless...

Yep, it can be seen from what you've written before. Plus... people get bullied for sexuality by religious and non-religious people alike. I live in an atheist country and it's very sad that there's so many people who want all homosexuals to be burnt/stoned or something like that... the same people want religious people to disappear as well...

Whoa...Marcel f*ckin with the religion...and i was being accused of intolerance and hatred

Written by Ellrohir on 19.08.2012 at 12:03
Whoa...Marcel f*ckin with the religion...and i was being accused of intolerance and hatred

You weren't drunk that day... that's what was so funny.

Then again his opinion wouldn't change anyways, he might have used less offesive words but his opinion (which I share) stands: You can have moral without any religious background.
While I can tolerate them, I still won't support any religion and the very concept that I need some kind of religious background to be a good person offends me.

But you kinda have to believe you can have it...some people dont...

Written by X-Ray Rod on 19.08.2012 at 12:38

I need some kind of religious background to be a good person

Who said you need any?

Tbh it is quite common argument supporting the existence of church now, in the age of science - the church provides society with morale standards and therefore the church must prevail...without it, we will descend back into barbarism...

and it is also often said ppl without religious belief are automatically bad, because they lack any morale just by definition...

I can't tell if you're playing the devil's advocate, but the church providing us with moral standards? Haha, that's the most ridiculous and blind thing I've heard in a while if you are being serious. The "church" is amongst the most hypocritical organisations known to man.

Don't fuck your children, let us do that for you (literally and otherwise). Nevermind all our sex crimes, look at all those heathen gays over there! Please, the "church" is nothing more than an obstacle of logical and free thought to be overcome in the modern day. There was more barbarism when the church had more power. The only difference is that the barbarism had a "cause" behind it.

Quote:
and it is also often said ppl without religious belief are automatically bad, because they lack any morale just by definition...

I'm not going to even pretend that I have the knowledge to answer whether or not religion had a hand in once shaping moral thought, but even if it did it is most certainly an archaic and outdated mode of moral transmission in this day and age. At least in the sense of the "church" as you would understand it. I was raised in a religious free environment and I don't fuck children, stab people for money, judge people on their sexual orientation or anything like that. I turned out pretty ok. Though the "church" might not agree.

Written by Ernis on 19.08.2012 at 13:04

Written by X-Ray Rod on 19.08.2012 at 12:38

I need some kind of religious background to be a good person

Who said you need any?

Oh nobody really... but saying this:

Written by Ernis on 16.08.2012 at 23:33
Also, you can't really say there can be morals without any religious backgrounds.

Is just as bad since it implies that all moral must have had a religious thought behind it and not simply common sense and good manners to make a society move on.

Written by X-Ray Rod on 19.08.2012 at 15:02

it implies that all moral must have had a religious thought behind it and not simply common sense and good manners to make a society move on.

Now there's another very good question. Where do common sense and good manners come from? What is common sense and how do you define good manners? Where did they have their beginnings? Are these things something humans are born with or are they something that develop in a given society under certain circumstances?

Can you give me an answer? I can't find any. I am NOT implying that good manners and common sense stem from any particular religion.

All I know is that, for example, for the generation of our great-grandparents and grandparents good manners and common sense did have a profound contact with religious ideals. Where did you get your manners and common sense from? From the society that surrounds you, from home and school... at least so I imagine. Or did you have all of this ready inside of you from birth? Where did you parents get common sense and manners? Where did their parents and the generations before get their manners from? As I said... it's impossible to exclude religion from the historical development of moral and social standards entirely.

Once again... I know atheists/agnostics who may not follow any religion knowingly but are a wonderful people. Charity and compassion and love etc are things that have been revered in religions, personified as deities and saints and for many generations they have always had a strong association with religion... not just Christianity but also others...

I've got few friends who don't follow any religion and still are great people. I've got a friend who's a devout muslim and he's a wonderful and sincere person as well. My bro's a devout Christian... We are all people with our good and bad sides and different views on religion but we all try to follow these same ideal standards and for some awkward reason it works rather fine... I could never see myself bothering my muslim friends with claims that "You know, islam is so wrong. Why can't you see that the Lutheran church is better?" or my atheist friends attacking me with statements "Get over this imaginary friend phase!" In the end there's just one religion to follow... love... whether you find the ideals to follow from a self-help book, from a friend's advice, from Hinduism, Buddhism or Christianity or any other possible source... doesn't matter as long as you try to live so as to make yourself a better person day by day...

Feel free to read what you want to read out of this text...

Written by [user id=4365] on 19.08.2012 at 14:42

I can't tell if you're playing the devil's advocate, but the church providing us with moral standards? Haha, that's the most ridiculous and blind thing I've heard in a while if you are being serious. The "church" is amongst the most hypocritical organisations known to man.

Don't fuck your children, let us do that for you (literally and otherwise). Nevermind all our sex crimes, look at all those heathen gays over there! Please, the "church" is nothing more than an obstacle of logical and free thought to be overcome in the modern day. There was more barbarism when the church had more power. The only difference is that the barbarism had a "cause" behind it.

Right... Christians are child-molesters, Muslims are terrorists and Jews steal your money... If a person is narrow-minded enough to just notice only one face of a large polyhedron then it's up to that person himself if he'll ever be willing to think outside the box or not.

I remember a flatmate of mine being appalled by the idea that I've got friends who come from islamic countries. He was even more appalled when I said that I'd love to visit them there. "OMG! But they will cut my head off because that's what they do to non-believers!" It's like... "Don't drink water! Fish fuck in it!"

Written by Ernis on 20.08.2012 at 00:00




Right... Christians are child-molesters, Muslims are terrorists and Jews steal your money... If a person is narrow-minded enough to just notice only one face of a large polyhedron then it's up to that person himself if he'll ever be willing to think outside the box or not.

I remember a flatmate of mine being appalled by the idea that I've got friends who come from islamic countries. He was even more appalled when I said that I'd love to visit them there. "OMG! But they will cut my head off because that's what they do to non-believers!" It's like... "Don't drink water! Fish fuck in it!"

Not wishing to delve deep into this in this moment so I am only responding to this part but to be fair Joe said "church".

Church =/= Christians

I have christian friends, I listen to christian bands (and I generally boycott bands with a purpose that is VERY diametrically opposed to my code, such as nazi bands) and I have absolutely NOTHING against christians, the same doesn't go towards the church however, as it is a much different entity with much different things on its account.

Written by Ernis on 20.08.2012 at 00:00

Right... Christians are child-molesters, Muslims are terrorists and Jews steal your money... If a person is narrow-minded enough to just notice only one face of a large polyhedron then it's up to that person himself if he'll ever be willing to think outside the box or not.

I remember a flatmate of mine being appalled by the idea that I've got friends who come from islamic countries. He was even more appalled when I said that I'd love to visit them there. "OMG! But they will cut my head off because that's what they do to non-believers!" It's like... "Don't drink water! Fish fuck in it!"

You completely missed my point. The church, the whole, HAS downplayed crimes of people in their organisation in an effort to marginalise the damage on the whole "polyhedron" as you put it. That is undeniable. I'm not making claims against individuals, I'm talking about how the general order deal with those individuals. Citing stereotypes is an inappropriate response if you ask me as that's not being brought into question here. How can someone say the church is worth its moral grounding when it's an organisation that manipulates the broader image it conveys? It's dishonest and hypocritical.

I have no issues with the individual Christian and their beliefs here, rather the twisted broader perceptions of the church.

Thanks for elaboration to both of you who have posted above right now. Other religions aside, in Christianity's context the term "church" actually means "Christians"... that is, people are the church.

If we speak of people who've done bad things and who have abused the power they had within the church, then it's another thing. And even when speaking about church(es) as organisations, one can't only see the evil side and completely ignore the good things that have been done.

Written by Ernis on 20.08.2012 at 00:00
Now there's another very good question. Where do common sense and good manners come from? What is common sense and how do you define good manners? Where did they have their beginnings? Are these things something humans are born with or are they something that develop in a given society under certain circumstances?

We can have as many theories as possible and none would be better than the other really. But if you ask me... I believe a lot of what could go into the bag of "common sense and good manners" goes all the way back to the classic old Instinct Of Survival which is something that is written on the very core of every creature which I have no problems in applying here as well since we are animals after all.

It wouldn't be such a stretch to believe that we usually choose the path that works best for us... This shouldn't imply that we are just a bunch of egoistic people since we just want the best for ourselves and our offspring. Now... Going back to my point: It's very easy to see how not fucking up your own species is good for your survival in the long run.... By helping each other or simply to try to not disturb the life of the neighbor by... for example: Kill him/her. That's some pretty straight forward reasoning... A reasoning that got more complicated with time since many others things went down in the list of "things you shouldn't do" in order to not ruin the overall existence of a society that grew more and more which obviously leads to a more complicated system.

Quote:
Can you give me an answer? I can't find any

.
Then I wonder why do you write this:

Quote:
it's impossible to exclude religion from the historical development of moral and social standards entirely.

...If you just wrote that you have no personal answers to where common sense and good manners come from (which in the end leads to a system of morals).

Peace!