Islam

Written by akatana on 19.06.2008 at 12:10

Written by [user id=30512] on 18.06.2008 at 09:50

@taka: First you say that Black Winter needs to mix his faith and science and that it is possible to accept evolution and still belive in God, but than you are going to explain why there cannot be a God and why it is unlogical to believe in it. Please, be a little consistent. If you find believing in a God ridiculous, than say so, and don't say just the opposite.

Evolution disproves the issue of man being created by god but that does not mean that there could be no god. I personally think that there is no god but it cannot be proven. So what I am saying is that if your religion tells you that humans and the earth were created by god then your religion is false but if you are saying that there is something like an abstract god then I don;t really care about that because I can make no scientific statement about it. It is illogical to believe in the bible or the qur'an or in a god that has the properties of the bible and the qur'an. So it is illogical to believe in the god of the bible and the god of islam (and many other religions) but it is not illogical to believe in a god in general (mainly because logic does not apply to abstract concepts).

I'm sorry, I understood you wrong. Myself I think that an abstract god is not a god, so, a god about which cannot be made a scientific statement is no god and so no god would excist. I mistook your words because a abstract god cannot excist for me.

Written by Black Winter on 18.06.2008 at 11:30

Quote:

we can suppose that God created humans perfect,but then during millions of years some changes happened due to changing conditions that originated these 'mistakes'.I can not tel which is correct but either ways it's God's will.

certainly by Allah, you don't mean a god who once created the universe, and after that has nothing to do with it.
since according to Quran god has never been unmindfull of his creation, so such defects or mistakes should never have happened due to condition changes or such.

"...and We are never unmindful of (Our) Creation."
23:17

Quote:

do you want me to tell you why? it's because it's earthly life,it's not perfect,actually far from being perfect,if it was perfect then why should there be afterlife?This of course does not under value the creation of God,and the beauty of that creation,but I wanted to point out that the game of life is imperfect,that justifies the need for another life,the afterlife.

but afterlife has nothing to do with earthy imperfections_ according to Quran.
as you know, after creating Man, Allah is so satisfied with his creation and calls himself "the best to create"

"...so blessed be Allah the Best to create!"
23:14

and we see repeatedly in Quran that all god's creations are perfect, for example:

"He Who has made everything which He has created most Good..."
32:7
"We have indeed created man in the best of molds"
95:4

AND in below verse, you can clearly see that god asks :"Seest thou any flaw?"

"...,no want of proportion wilt thou see in the Creation of (Allah) Most Gracious so turn thy vision again: Seest thou any flaw?"
67:3

Quote:

I think all this discussion is pointless.

yes,it is. caz you can always describe things as god's will.

(I chose to quote you here because I thought it would be more appropriate )

Written by [user id=30512] on 22.06.2008 at 21:22


this Surah says that she is a brother of Aaron, so, it remains very strange. It doesn't make it really easier for those who know only the quran, because they now will think that Aaron is a brother of Mary and so they would have lived in the same time. That is not so of course.

Ah yes that, actually Aaron was mentionned in the Quran 11 times as the brother of Moses (2-248/7-142/19-53/20-30/20-70/20-90/20-92/23-45/25-35/26-13/27-34)
about the verse that refers to Mary as 'sister of Aaron',it's not the Quran that called her that,the verse reported what people then said to her ('They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought! "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"'),there are many interpretations of that verse but I go with the most simple interpretation based on the Hadith,quoting Mughriah :"
When I came to Najran, they (the Christians of Najran) asked me: You read "O sister of Harun" (i.e. Maryam) in the Qur'an, whereas Moses was born much before Jesus. When I came back to the messenger of God I asked him about that, whereupon he said:didn't they know that The (people of the old age) used to give names (to their persons) after the names of Apostle and pious persons who had gone before them.

Written by Black Winter on 23.06.2008 at 19:55

(I chose to quote you here because I thought it would be more appropriate )

Written by [user id=30512] on 22.06.2008 at 21:22


this Surah says that she is a brother of Aaron, so, it remains very strange. It doesn't make it really easier for those who know only the quran, because they now will think that Aaron is a brother of Mary and so they would have lived in the same time. That is not so of course.

Ah yes that, actually Aaron was mentionned in the Quran 11 times as the brother of Moses (2-248/7-142/19-53/20-30/20-70/20-90/20-92/23-45/25-35/26-13/27-34)
about the verse that refers to Mary as 'sister of Aaron',it's not the Quran that called her that,the verse reported what people then said to her ('They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought! "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"'),there are many interpretations of that verse but I go with the most simple interpretation based on the Hadith,quoting Mughriah :"
When I came to Najran, they (the Christians of Najran) asked me: You read "O sister of Harun" (i.e. Maryam) in the Qur'an, whereas Moses was born much before Jesus. When I came back to the messenger of God I asked him about that, whereupon he said:didn't they know that The (people of the old age) used to give names (to their persons) after the names of Apostle and pious persons who had gone before them.

ok, that clears up a lot. Thank you.

Written by Black Winter on 28.06.2008 at 23:47

Written by Varegan on 28.06.2008 at 03:29

because its not like "havin fun together", its a real war, Muslim extremists can be found everywhere and they are all ready to suicide bombing and cutting blasphemer's head off! its order of their religion, (I'm not sure... maybe they just don't want to be racist.)

I don't know why you take every chance to spread these lies about Islam,keep doing it,and I will keep correcting it.

Black Winter, man,
'Christianity and islam only rule the world because they had to go through crusades to spread it (this is jihad, or if its not, it is terrorism). It's a matter of corruption! That's the only reason why they've become so widespread, if they had been spread through compassion (as every GOOD faith should be) then they would've already been dead (like zarathustra which is almost dead). when lack of compassion is shown as well as cruelty and corruption, I must put my foot down! It's BEYOND MY REALM OF UNDERSTANDING HOW ANY " CARING/GOOD/COMPASSIONATE BEING " CAN BE PROUD OF BEING CHRISTIAN OR MUSLIM?!'

About post-mortem,
what will happen to animals ?
what will happen to a little child who was for example 1 year old (when died) ? (i mean when its armageddon)
allah has collected his body's pieces from depth of underground, air or water and summoned him; he will look for his parents, scared, crying, ... suddenly his 90 years old grandpa finds him and says son! you'll go to heaven! but me to hell! i didnt pray to allah!, but he still is crying, hungry, thirsty, ... THE DOORS of heaven and hell will open and so on.
the grandpa will burn in fire and the grandson will grow. will fuck nymphs. will eat and drink anything and will live for ever and ever and wont get tired.

good funny bullshits being used to fool any moron.

Written by Mosquiller on 30.06.2008 at 15:02

Written by Black Winter on 28.06.2008 at 23:47

Written by Varegan on 28.06.2008 at 03:29

because its not like "havin fun together", its a real war, Muslim extremists can be found everywhere and they are all ready to suicide bombing and cutting blasphemer's head off! its order of their religion, (I'm not sure... maybe they just don't want to be racist.)

I don't know why you take every chance to spread these lies about Islam,keep doing it,and I will keep correcting it.

Black Winter, man,
'Christianity and islam only rule the world because they had to go through crusades to spread it (this is jihad, or if its not, it is terrorism). It's a matter of corruption! That's the only reason why they've become so widespread,

I agree with this part, I am sure that their imperialist attitude has played an enormous role in their spreading over the world

Written by Mosquiller on 30.06.2008 at 15:02


'Christianity and islam only rule the world because they had to go through crusades to spread it (this is jihad, or if its not, it is terrorism). It's a matter of corruption! That's the only reason why they've become so widespread, if they had been spread through compassion (as every GOOD faith should be) then they would've already been dead (like zarathustra which is almost dead). when lack of compassion is shown as well as cruelty and corruption, I must put my foot down! It's BEYOND MY REALM OF UNDERSTANDING HOW ANY " CARING/GOOD/COMPASSIONATE BEING " CAN BE PROUD OF BEING CHRISTIAN OR MUSLIM?!'

About post-mortem,
what will happen to animals ?
what will happen to a little child who was for example 1 year old (when died) ? (i mean when its armageddon)
allah has collected his body's pieces from depth of underground, air or water and summoned him; he will look for his parents, scared, crying, ... suddenly his 90 years old grandpa finds him and says son! you'll go to heaven! but me to hell! i didnt pray to allah!, but he still is crying, hungry, thirsty, ... THE DOORS of heaven and hell will open and so on.
the grandpa will burn in fire and the grandson will grow. will fuck nymphs. will eat and drink anything and will live for ever and ever and wont get tired.

good funny bullshits being used to fool any moron.

those are basic matters:
how islam spread,of course,it's not about islam,it's about a new state,that wanted to gain more power and land,and that's every state's desire, but still,muslims were very gentle with the lands they conquered,they never forced a person to change his religion,take for example,palestine,lebanon,syria,its christians are still there they faced no problem with muslims in charge,and I don't feel the need to remind of the ruling of Jerusalem by the muslims,it was one of its best eras,of tolerance and growth,take another example,Spain,when muslims conquered it,they did not force the locals to convert to islam,muslims stayed in spain for 800 years,800 years man!and when captured again by the crusaders,they uprooted muslims,even the locals who converted to islam,and it became again the spain that we knoiw now.
I addition to that,in many parts of the world,muslims never conquered them,but Islam spread there with no problem,take for example asia(mainly south east), africa(exept for the north)..
so I can say that I feel quite comfortable about the way islam spread.

what will happen to little children?they will go to heaven,they are called"the birds of heaven"
What will happen to animals?I don't know,and honestly I don't care,what difference would that make?
As for the rest of your post,I didn't get much,but the thing abouth the pa going to hell and the son going to heaven,and yes,that makes absolute justice,you only get awarded about what you did,YOU only,not your father,nor your son..make sure that all these questions about the after life are not necessary,two sentences are enough to say here:
God is just.
those who did good will be greatly awarded.

@ Black Winter:I heard some sort of shits about circumcising virgin girls in Islam , and its ordered by Muhammad, and its not forbidden or haram

Written by Varegan on 04.07.2008 at 00:36

@ Black Winter:I heard some sort of shits about circumcising virgin girls in Islam , and its ordered by Muhammad, and its not forbidden or haram

No!! that's strictly forbidden!!circumcising only concerns guys not girls,I heard some of this shit about some villages in Africa that do it with girls and it's honestly sick,that's just sick

Written by Mosquiller on 30.06.2008 at 15:02

Black Winter, man,
'Christianity and islam only rule the world because they had to go through crusades to spread it (this is jihad, or if its not, it is terrorism). It's a matter of corruption! That's the only reason why they've become so widespread, if they had been spread through compassion (as every GOOD faith should be) then they would've already been dead (like zarathustra which is almost dead). when lack of compassion is shown as well as cruelty and corruption, I must put my foot down! It's BEYOND MY REALM OF UNDERSTANDING HOW ANY " CARING/GOOD/COMPASSIONATE BEING " CAN BE PROUD OF BEING CHRISTIAN OR MUSLIM?!'
...

I dont exactly know how it is with Islam, but I know that the crusades started because the Saracenes (Turkey, muslim) had occupied Jerusalem from the (also muslim) Arabics and the Saracenes started to kill pilgrims. Of course it is known that the crusaders where promissed mountains of gold and expensive stones and the money played a large part also. It is also known that christianity grows moslty under persecution, when the persecution ended (around 350 AC) the growth of christianity almost ended also, 200 AC the entire roman empire had already received the gospel, after about 300 AC they didn't go further anymore, the persecution was almost gone.

2:21 AM and im extremely drunekn now but hope i make my point clear for u

palestine, lebanon, syria, Spain... ok,
what about iran ? what about the city of ctesiphon? what about the city of istakhr ? what about persepolis ? what about derbent ? what about the zarathustrians holy shrines that arabs destroyed ? doesnt that mean to force ?
1 example : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istakhr -> (qoute: Istakhr was burned to the ground during the Islamic conquest of Persia by Arab invaders.)
arabs invasion had 3 main reasons : to steal (one example:the flag of iran was the flag of 'kavian', we say derafsh-e-kavian, that was made of very amazing and expensive material, muslims stole it and sold many of its pieces in arabia and also many great carpets), to spread and to conquer more lands.

Battle of Walaja, Battle of Firaz, Battle of the Bridge, The Battle of al-Qādisiyyah, Battle of Nahawand, ...
you see?! these are the battles that led to islamic conquest of persia! why battle ? why sword ?
===
you dont care about animals but i do care.
i have a shepherd german dog and when i look at him i wonder where will he go after he dies ?
also animals can dream when theyre asleep but dreaming doesnt mean to have soul. thats bullshit. dejavu is bullshit too.
quran should have something to say about this. animals are alive, the can breathe, and remember, they were living on earth before all the humans. they are a creation too however.
===
about that long short story, there are many questions behind it.
will the little child grow in heaven ? will someone raise him ?
i dont think that a 90 Y O man will be interested to have sex!
===
last word fot tonight, if allah exist, we are his PUPPETS then.
i'll explain later... sleepppyyyy :|

@ ÆSHMA
Oh dear animals have also their rights, In Islam It is forbidden to cage animals, to beat them unnecessarily, to brand them on the face, or to allow them to fight each other for human entertainment. "They must not be mutilated while they are alive."

He is also reported to have said: "There is no man who kills [even] a sparrow or anything smaller, without its deserving it, but Allah will question him about it [on the judgment day]," and "Whoever is kind to the creatures of God is kind to himself."[2][10]

A Hadith says that a woman went to hell for a cat that she tied until she died,away from food and water,you probably know this hadith it's well known.
There are also many verses that animals do worship God,and implicitly that they will be awarded for it:

6-38 : "There is not a moving (living) creature on earth, nor a bird that flies with its two wings, but are communities like you. We have neglected nothing in the Book, then unto their Lord they (all) shall be gathered."

16-49: "And to Allah prostate all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth, of the live moving creatures and the angels, and they are not proud (i.e. they worship their Lord (Allah) with humility)."

And you know animals have a great value in the Quran,there are six suras that are named after the names of animals,and you probably know the story that associate the credit for the messenger (S) and Abubaker(AS) 's rescue from the persecuters,to a pigeon and a spider,driven of course by God's wisdom.

@ Aei Ontos
The turks did a lot of horrible things to many nations,mainly muslim nations,but not all of them,the turks had some 'favourite' nations like tunisians,egyptians,albanians..but I can say that the whole muslim nation started to fall apart after the turkish conquest,they were muslims,yes,but they were too violent,and not too wise.
As for the crusades,what I know is simply what I studied in class,there were some priests that incited people to go fight for the christian lands that hae been invaded by the muslims,not just Jerusalem,but the whole Kanaan land,spain,south italy,and to stop that islamic flow,there were even some priests who were giving "forgiveness checks" to those who participate in the crusades.I've aloso some ideas from "Kingdom of Heaven" the movie but that was in a kind of late era of the crusades.

@ Black Winter; Ahh I didnt ask about animal rights
didnt get my answer either.

@ Both; (believers defend and non-believers refuse, thats a very natural behaviour)
so what do most of scandinavian bands sing about?
did not christian invaders tortured and killed vikings and witches? burned they holy palaces down ?!

my post contained the specific answer to your repeated question about the fact if animals will be judged.

Written by Mosquiller on 09.07.2008 at 23:50

@ Both; (believers defend and non-believers refuse, thats a very natural behaviour)
so what do most of scandinavian bands sing about?
did not christian invaders tortured and killed vikings and witches? burned they holy palaces down ?!

You believe all scandinavian bands? Here in Europe there is laughed about them. They can tell you the weather of the coming winter very well, but any sense of history, no, not really. Witches have been killed, indeed. Both other things are bullshit.

Written by [user id=30512] on 10.07.2008 at 17:37

Written by Mosquiller on 09.07.2008 at 23:50

@ Both; (believers defend and non-believers refuse, thats a very natural behaviour)
so what do most of scandinavian bands sing about?
did not christian invaders tortured and killed vikings and witches? burned they holy palaces down ?!

You believe all scandinavian bands? Here in Europe there is laughed about them. They can tell you the weather of the coming winter very well, but any sense of history, no, not really. Witches have been killed, indeed. Both other things are bullshit.

Correct to a certain extent. In some regions their where large conflicts, but it wasn't nearly has viloent has the bands claims it to be. The reason why the scandinavian countries got "christianized" was beacuse they let us keep celabrating our pagan tradition and make those "christian" were else their was oppertunity. A good example is christmas, which was a large pagan feist before christianity came. It's still a grand feist, but know it's masquraded in the name of Jesus. Also, one of our biggest and most beloved tradition(midsummer-eve) is purely pagan, with no connection with christianity what so ever. For a time, during the transaktion between paganism and christianity, it was not uncommon to to be both christian and pagan, people whorshiped both gods. For example could a warrior both have thor's hammer and the christian cross around his neck.


But we are getting a bit off topic here.

religion is not fact nor fiction. It is a belief that is taught. this does not excuse the fact that many abuse this philosophy to brainwash youth and generation. Faith is not about god or religion it is fundamentally about the belief system that best fits your personal beliefs. Id doesnt need to be extreme nor exlusive. the best values one can hold are inclusive and agreeable ones. I think faiths that frown appon music in all forms are flawed because music is the modern peoples form of expression, and if that is degraded it leaves limited resources for us to express ourselves.

Written by Mosquiller on 07.07.2008 at 00:24

palestine, lebanon, syria, Spain... ok,
what about iran ? what about the city of ctesiphon? what about the city of istakhr ? what about persepolis ? what about derbent ? what about the zarathustrians holy shrines that arabs destroyed ? doesnt that mean to force ?
1 example : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istakhr -> (qoute: Istakhr was burned to the ground during the Islamic conquest of Persia by Arab invaders.)
arabs invasion had 3 main reasons : to steal (one example:the flag of iran was the flag of 'kavian', we say derafsh-e-kavian, that was made of very amazing and expensive material, muslims stole it and sold many of its pieces in arabia and also many great carpets), to spread and to conquer more lands.

Battle of Walaja, Battle of Firaz, Battle of the Bridge, The Battle of al-Qādisiyyah, Battle of Nahawand, ...
you see?! these are the battles that led to islamic conquest of persia! why battle ? why sword ?

right, and :
-they disjointed precious lamé, Baharestan carpet to devide them among themselves!!!!
-they melted precious impressed silver/gold plates to devid them among themselves!!!
-they captured women/men/children and took them to slavery!!!
-they destroyed valuable BOOKS of Madayen believing : 'everything we need is in Quran, if they say the same things we have in Quran then we won't need them and if they contain anything against Quran, then they must be destroyed' !!!
-...

Quote:

...Battle of Nahawand, ...

and they called it Fath-ol-Fotuh, i guess.


and about animals:
quran mostly speaks of the animals we use, and says they have been created for humans to use their meat & milk & carrier & ...and NO MORE!!!
so there is no surprize there's no indication of what you say.

And cattle He has created for you (men): from them ye derive
warmth and numerous benefits and of their (meat) ye eat.
16:5
And (He has created) horses, mules and donkeys for you to
ride and use for show...
16:8


@black winter

you have a good talent in scaping what you don't wanna see or accept.
his main point was muslims using war to conquer Persian Emipre and to convert persians to islam and you simply neglected that!!!!

and about animals, the verses you're mentioning are just sarcastic, they mean ALL are under god's power and etc. so NO, animals won't be awarded for worshiping god, don't tell me you don't know this...
how can you claim this while you certainly know having free-will, power to choose,doer's aim being following God's instructions, ... is the first step to be awarded for something done even a GOOD act, in islam.
no, certainly animals won't be judged in islam.

hehehe... so what's your point? if that story contains a pigeon's roost and a spiderweb which helped Mohhamad hiding in a cave, be safe, it doesn't prove anything...
and if 6 suras have animal's name it certainly dosen't mean they have great value in Quran as you claim!!

that Hadith says: 'a woman WENT TO HELL...'
i have a fundamental problem with this:
what i know about that afterlife bullshit is that all souls will remain in 'Barzakh' till the judgement day then god will judge all and they will be sent to hell and heaven so noone enters Duzakh (hell) before the judgement day, or was that Haddith just metaphoric?

OMG...so you say animals will be judged?
you must be jocking then i have to thank you for making me lol that much tonight.
i can imagine animals standing in lines and being judged by Allah:
a scorpion being sent to hell for biting a child and killing him/her!!! or
a mosquito being punished for biting ppl and making them ill with malaria!!! or
a cat being sent to hell for killing a mouse for no reason!!! or
grasshopper being sent to hell for destroying farms!!!
therefore i'm too eager to see sinful dinasaurs in hell !!!
then lets go further and talk about trees, flowers, viruses, bacteria, ...
a tree is sent to hell for using all the sun light, soil elements, etc and leave nothing for small buds!!!
viruses are sent to hell for making ppl sick!!!

that would be more acceptable if you've said, they will all be sent to hevean caz they don't have free-will...
even if by judgement you only meant being awarded for worshiping God, first of all it's not judgement anymore and second that's funny
due to the reasons i mentioned above.

"Evolution" is a theory developed by racists, who gleefully point out that Africa is 60,000 years removed in evolution from Europe.

Written by Black Winter on 10.07.2008 at 10:03

my post contained the specific answer to your repeated question about the fact if animals will be judged.

you sure?
thanx to Keyser Söze, he cleared my point up for you.
you know, you have either to put quran aside and read about history of iran, (the islamic conquest and the part how muslims forced ppl to convert) or bow down to what i told you.
an obvious thing is that you ignored my other Qs.
i say this again that Christianity, Judaism and Islam :"fakes" because they were all in a way plagiarisms of Zoroaster's religion

This powerful religion was the official religion in Iran until 1400 years ago when a group of Arabs led by Muhammad invaded Iran and forced the Muslim religion on the people , some Iranian families committed suicide to escape from the hands of the "Davou" or "Devil" as the barbaric Arabs were known at the time, others fled, but the majority of Iranians converted to Islam by force. All Iranians are Zoroasterian by definition until 1400 years ago, and all rituals and traditions related to the new year(Nowrooz) that Iranians celebrate annually are in memory of Zoroaster (and also The Great 'Cyrus' and other emperors and emperesses).

I had a quran, shredded it and it is now my usual habit to shit on it's papers when Im shitting in the restroom.
cant mention anyother verses for you unless i buy a new one.

Written by [user id=30512] on 10.07.2008 at 17:37

You believe all scandinavian bands? Here in Europe there is laughed about them. They can tell you the weather of the coming winter very well, but any sense of history, no, not really.

Honestly, I dont. but i agree with buruzm's music, bathory, mayhem (dead & euro era!)
also, I know about the arab muslim invaders that one of their leaders was homo.
he was trying to capture a scandinavian beautiful guy but they were kicked and couldnt reach their end there.

Quote:

Witches have been killed, indeed. Both other things are bullshit.

Thats it.
Im sure that many none-witches HAVE BEEN KILLED as well.

Written by Conservationist on 13.07.2008 at 23:13

"Evolution" is a theory developed by racists,

lOl
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Origin_of_Species

Written by Conservationist on 13.07.2008 at 23:13

"Evolution" is a theory developed by racists, who gleefully point out that Africa is 60,000 years removed in evolution from Europe.

absolute bullshit...
though it apparently is nothing but SPAM, i'll respond to make it clear :

* Evolution does not teach racism; it teaches the very opposite caz Genetic studies show that humans are remarkably homogeneous genetically, so all humans are only one biological race.
* evolution doesn't even consider "race" a valid biological classification as it has been proved by modern genetic analysis that the vast majority of variation between humans correlates little_ if at all_ with racial boundaries.
* The "scientific racists" were creationists, who, in order to justify slavery and the extermination of natives, argued that for example blacks were inferior .
* by looking at history, it's apparent that actually "scientific racism" emerged about 10 years BEFOR "Origin" and it became prominent just prior to and after the CIVIL WAR due to race issues in the American South.
* only an idiot might think that calling a specific race the "the pinnacle of evolutionary development", was scientific at all caz simply a life-form is never the 'perfect' life-form except in terms of the environment and environmental conditions it is adapted to;
* ...

for more, visit:
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA005_1.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA005.html
http://wiki.cotch.net/index.php/Evolution_is_racist

There was a very interesting program on the other night here in the UK about the Qu'ran. It made me think about something I've never really thought about before... that a lot of peoples beliefs/practices are actually very old cultural things and they use religion to back it up, seen as it can be interpreted in many different ways. Like it said that women wearing the veil is actually an old Bedouin custom and was around way, way before Islam, but people take certain passages from the Qu'ran and think that it means that women MUST wear a veil. If that makes sense. Actually it showed some families where the daughter had only just started to wear a veil and her parents couldn't understand it and thought it was daft because it wasn't a part of the culture of their generation. I thought that it was something that ALL women had to do in Muslim countries, but it's not as black and white as that. Basically it made me hate religion even more because people just twist things to mean what they want them to mean in order to manipulate/influence people. No one's really sure of the values or morals that religions lay out.

but with that it isn't the fault of religion that people twist it. most people are happy to follow an "organised" religion, one where they're not really required to think and can just follow the rules already set. people who set upnew religions often do it to suit themselves at the time, think henry tudor and the church of england (he started it so he could get divorced in case anyone doesn't know!).

religion and beliefs are probably very seperate. a religion that is based around morality i think is a good one. i'm a methodist and to be honest it's a pretty good one to follow! basically you do what is right, fair and morally correct most of the time (occasional daft things like not drinking alcohol when jesus turned water to wine don't make sense in my head though!) and that's about it. there is no "head" of the methodist church like the pope or queen. a much more simplistic view overall.

Written by AiwiAstwihad on 13.07.2008 at 22:58


right, and :
-they disjointed precious lamé, Baharestan carpet to devide them among themselves!!!!
-they melted precious impressed silver/gold plates to devid them among themselves!!!
-they captured women/men/children and took them to slavery!!!
-they destroyed valuable BOOKS of Madayen believing : 'everything we need is in Quran, if they say the same things we have in Quran then we won't need them and if they contain anything against Quran, then they must be destroyed' !!!
-...

Quote:

...Battle of Nahawand, ...

and they called it Fath-ol-Fotuh, i guess.
his main point was muslims using war to conquer Persian Emipre and to convert persians to islam and you simply neglected that!!!!

Curiously the story about this library being burnt and that quote of the I-don't-know-who khalife,I've heard it only two times in my life,both in this thread,once by you,and the other by Hamird,I've looked for this incident in some history books,no trace,but it drove me more to search for the roots of the arab/persian conflict,the sum of it,it's more complicated than you think,I have no envy going into it again because it's not worth it,you know nearly every nation on earth had glorious times,and nearly every nation on earth got defeated by another one,but this did not prevent its people from working for their nation,I advise iranians to do that,instead of crying their lost glory and childishly throwing the blame at arabs of muslims or islam,and further,if we suppose muslims did make unclear war,Islam's view is clear about it"in times of war,do not cut a tree,kill an armless old man,a woman,a child..",so it only remains for us to look at this issue from a more political point of view,a young country looking for more power,it was the law then,as simple as that.

Written by AiwiAstwihad on 13.07.2008 at 22:58


and about animals:
quran mostly speaks of the animals we use, and says they have been created for humans to use their meat & milk & carrier & ...and NO MORE!!!
so there is no surprize there's no indication of what you say.

hmmm..the ayas and the hadith mentionned do not constitute an indication?

Written by AiwiAstwihad on 13.07.2008 at 22:58

And cattle He has created for you (men): from them ye derive
warmth and numerous benefits and of their (meat) ye eat.
16:5
And (He has created) horses, mules and donkeys for you to
ride and use for show...
16:8

so??I'm not seeing anything wrong here

Written by AiwiAstwihad on 13.07.2008 at 22:58

and about animals, the verses you're mentioning are just sarcastic, they mean ALL are under god's power and etc. so NO, animals won't be awarded for worshiping god, don't tell me you don't know this...
how can you claim this while you certainly know having free-will, power to choose,doer's aim being following God's instructions, ... is the first step to be awarded for something done even a GOOD act, in islam.

of course,but I said awarded not judged,and look again at this verse:
6-38 : "There is not a moving (living) creature on earth, nor a bird that flies with its two wings, but are communities like you. We have neglected nothing in the Book, then unto their Lord they (all) shall be gathered."

Written by AiwiAstwihad on 13.07.2008 at 22:58

hehehe... so what's your point? if that story contains a pigeon's roost and a spiderweb which helped Mohhamad hiding in a cave, be safe, it doesn't prove anything...

doesn't it prove,at least,how enormour an animal's role can be,how much importance can the least act of an animal be?

Written by AiwiAstwihad on 13.07.2008 at 22:58

and if 6 suras have animal's name it certainly dosen't mean they have great value in Quran as you claim!!

No??have you seen the index of the quran,what names are usually given to suras?it's not just like that,the names of the suras are very important elements?do you find it meaningless that suras have names of animals side by side with suras having names like: Muhammed,Mery,Yusuf,The Romans,Women,The Pen,The Sun..?

Written by AiwiAstwihad on 13.07.2008 at 22:58

that Hadith says: 'a woman WENT TO HELL...'
i have a fundamental problem with this:
what i know about that afterlife bullshit is that all souls will remain in 'Barzakh' till the judgement day then god will judge all and they will be sent to hell and heaven so noone enters Duzakh (hell) before the judgement day, or was that Haddith just metaphoric?

no,it wasn't,but don't you know that God already knows wether people will go to hell or heaven,actually even before their birth?that's well known Soze.

Written by AiwiAstwihad on 13.07.2008 at 22:58

OMG...so you say animals will be judged?
you must be jocking then i have to thank you for making me lol that much tonight.
i can imagine animals standing in lines and being judged by Allah:
a scorpion being sent to hell for biting a child and killing him/her!!! or
a mosquito being punished for biting ppl and making them ill with malaria!!! or
a cat being sent to hell for killing a mouse for no reason!!! or
grasshopper being sent to hell for destroying farms!!!
therefore i'm too eager to see sinful dinasaurs in hell !!!
then lets go further and talk about trees, flowers, viruses, bacteria, ...
a tree is sent to hell for using all the sun light, soil elements, etc and leave nothing for small buds!!!
viruses are sent to hell for making ppl sick!!!

nice circus,I think I am not in the right forum....actually I am...this is indeed the serious discussion forum,maybe you are just making me "lool" because I made you "lool".

Written by AiwiAstwihad on 13.07.2008 at 22:58

that would be more acceptable if you've said, they will all be sent to hevean caz they don't have free-will...

sorry haven't...I..said it? I mean I did say "awarded" and not "judged"?

Written by AiwiAstwihad on 13.07.2008 at 22:58

@black winter

you have a good talent in scaping what you don't wanna see or accept.

there you go a full detailed answer,I don't usually like to do it,because I don't see it interesting to debate with someone who is ready to oppose to anything related to Islam,aimal rights is a well known basic value in Islam,you doubt it,why?

Written by Mosquiller on 14.07.2008 at 23:27

Written by Black Winter on 10.07.2008 at 10:03

my post contained the specific answer to your repeated question about the fact if animals will be judged.

you sure?
thanx to Keyser Söze, he cleared my point up for you.
you know, you have either to put quran aside and read about history of iran, (the islamic conquest and the part how muslims forced ppl to convert) or bow down to what i told you.
an obvious thing is that you ignored my other Qs.
i say this again that Christianity, Judaism and Islam :"fakes" because they were all in a way plagiarisms of Zoroaster's religion

This powerful religion was the official religion in Iran until 1400 years ago when a group of Arabs led by Muhammad invaded Iran and forced the Muslim religion on the people , some Iranian families committed suicide to escape from the hands of the "Davou" or "Devil" as the barbaric Arabs were known at the time, others fled, but the majority of Iranians converted to Islam by force. All Iranians are Zoroasterian by definition until 1400 years ago, and all rituals and traditions related to the new year(Nowrooz) that Iranians celebrate annually are in memory of Zoroaster (and also The Great 'Cyrus' and other emperors and emperesses).

it's sad that you are still whining over a past that will not come back,balamig your problems on others,that is not constructive actually extremely disconstructive.

Written by Mosquiller on 14.07.2008 at 23:27

I had a quran, shredded it and it is now my usual habit to shit on it's papers when Im shitting in the restroom.
cant mention anyother verses for you unless i buy a new one.

hehe really kewl you iranians are all different dimensions of the same one person,you are repeating the lame story of Gorothrim?pathetic.
Seriously have you read the first message of this topic,you should express your opinion in respect,ifyou don't like then don't participate.no one will notice anyway.sorry for the harsh talk but that's it.

Quote:
it's sad that you are still whining over a past that will not come back,balamig your problems on others,that is not constructive actually extremely disconstructive.

Past has passed. we're not whining over it nor BALAMIG our problems on others.
just telling you guys and gals that what islam and muslims have done in past!

Quote:
hehe really kewl you iranians are all different dimensions of the same one person,you are repeating the lame story of Gorothrim?pathetic.

I realy like this.
today, as you see, many of iranian youths have many ideas in commen.

Quote:
Seriously have you read the first message of this topic,you should express your opinion in respect,ifyou don't like then don't participate.no one will notice anyway.sorry for the harsh talk but that's it.

No didnt read the first post. i agree we should respect eachother.
but seriously, that was what i realy have done IMAO!

Written by Black Winter on 27.07.2008 at 00:17

...that quote of the I-don't-know-who khalife...

that was "Omar".

Quote:

I've heard it only two times in my life,both in this thread,once by you,and the other by Hamird...

then hear the third time from Ibn Khaldun. you certainly know him, don't you?

Quote:

you know nearly every nation on earth had glorious times,and nearly every nation on earth got defeated by another one,but this did not prevent its people from working for their nation,I advise iranians to do that...

one of your most idiotic saying ever; what do you know about iran's political/social/cultural/economical/etc conditions? NOTHING, so shut your mouth and keep your advices for yourself. and don't worry, someday your moronic islam will be vanished from our valued land...
but anyway, it's a good idea to start with burning your Fuckin mosques!! lol

Quote:

...instead of crying their lost glory and childishly throwing the blame at arabs of muslims or islam

is this all you have to say? we are not crying for our lost glory, though I DON'T WANNA START AN ARGUMENT OVER THIS (cos if i do, i'll definatlely get a warning) , i have to say, it was not a total victory for Arab muslims, first and for most, they won not cos they were powerful but cos Persia was in a terrible internal political condition at that time (Yazdgerd was the king) PLUS this that for example Pirooz _the one who killed Omar was originally from Nahavand.
btw, i just responded your claim, don't try to show things in another way. you claimed that islam did not spread by SWORD and we brought you the example of Persia BUT you started giving advices and changing the topic. this is what i call "escaping what you don't wanna see or accept".

Quote:

of course,but I said awarded not judged.

and i said even being awarded is against islam's base:
"so NO, animals won't be awarded for worshiping god, don't tell me you don't know this...
how can you claim this while you certainly know having free-will, power to choose,doer's aim being following God's instructions, ... is the first step to be awarded for something done even a GOOD act, in islam."

oh...and...one more thing, if scientists knew this, they would all convert to islam to go to hevean to have the apportunity to see extincted animals there such as dinasours or mammoths!! lol

Quote:

There is not a moving (living) creature on earth, nor a bird that flies with its two wings, but are communities like you. We have neglected nothing in the Book, then unto their Lord they (all) shall be gathered.

how do you interpret gathered as awarded? gathered here means reviving the dead not awarding animals.

Quote:

doesn't it prove,at least,how enormour an animal's role can be,how much importance can the least act of an animal be?

lol.
if you wanna continue this way, you can say how camels are important as Mohammad used them in his wars!! or how cows/camel are important as he ate from their meat/milk!! or how animals are important as they're being sacrificed to Allah!!
well...apparently animals rights has a very different meaning for you than the official meaning.
animal rights groups will be glad to hear those logical & practical proofes from you.

Quote:

No??have you seen the index of the quran,what names are usually given to suras?it's not just like that,the names of the suras are very important elements?do you find it meaningless that suras have names of animals side by side with suras having names like: Muhammed,Mery,Yusuf,The Romans,Women,The Pen,The Sun..?

come on, those things mean nothing. take 'Bagharah' for example, what does it prove? NOTHING.
it's called "Bagharah" cos the story that Sura speaks about contains a "cow", that's all and no more.
or spider for example, it's called "Spider" cos the life of who chose other protectors rather than Allah is compared to spirederweb for both being fragile, again: that's all and no more.
or elephant for example, it's called "Elephant" cos it tells the story of "Companions of the Elephant" and again: that's all and no more.
it goes the same with Ant & Bee.

Quote:

no,it wasn't,but don't you know that God already knows wether people will go to hell or heaven,actually even before their birth?that's well known Soze.

nice, you just mentioned an old philosophical problem with God's Omniscience.

Quote:

sorry haven't...I..said it? I mean I did say "awarded" and not "judged"?

again, not even awarded...second, then what is the award for animals? it can't be Hur Ein!!! lol

God is evil, hates humanity and wants to inflict general suffering and malaise upon his playthings (that's you) to wile away his time. You see, just like the rest of us, God suffers from existential angst and ennui. However God's existential problems are amplified by his infinite existence. In order to achieve relief God created the universe and uses it to inflict his anguish upon countless conscious beings.
just look at this incomplete list of vile things said to be 'acts of God': tsunamis, volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, tornadoes, HIV, cancer, the Bubonic plague, Ayn Rand, syphilis, floods, old age and the cancellation of Firefly. That last one might have been the fault of Fox. although they are probably working for God Arrgg

"This world could not have been the work of an all-loving being, but that of a devil, who had brought creatures into existence in order to delight in the sight of their sufferings."
Arthur Schopenhauer

What's with the deep hatred you guys got?
I didn't read the whole thread but it seems like those Iranians are going into a revolution or something