Written by Redel on 10.05.2021 at 15:12

reserve 8s and higher for the albums I really, really, really like.
Does that make sense?

It makes a lot of sense - to me at least. This is what everyone should be doing and then this topic would have no reason to exist anymore.

As a guy with rating distribution similar to the guy above, I'm gonna remain silent...

Written by nikarg on 01.05.2021 at 19:20

Written by Roman Doez on 01.05.2021 at 14:13

Http://www.metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=289022
This guy is extremely harsh in his votes, I'm not sure whether or not it's rating abuse, just wanted to point it out

This isn't vote abuse and, in my opinion, being harsh also balances all the ridiculous overrating.

I've been keeping track of JimmyMagnetar lately because every Friday when new albums are released there are always albums with low ratings and usually he is there early in the morning giving out 5's and lower. But he at least has an average of 5,78 from 1306 rating (when this is written).

Just recently I started noticing this guy too. He has 55 ratings that are 1-3 and only 6 ratings that are 8-10 out of 91 in total giving him an average of just 3,6. Of the albums released today (May 14th) he has given five albums a 1. So maybe time to reconsider if it's rating abuse or not.

Written by Karlabos on 12.05.2021 at 18:26

I'm gonna remain silent...

But you should not!
Instead you should speak out load against the tendency to view rates lower 6 as rating abuse.

Written by Nejde on 14.05.2021 at 18:23

Just recently I started noticing this guy too. He has 55 ratings that are 1-3 and only 6 ratings that are 8-10 out of 91 in total giving him an average of just 3,6. Of the albums released today (May 14th) he has given five albums a 1. So maybe time to reconsider if it's rating abuse or not.

I am not getting your point I guess. Why precisely is it time to reconsider rating abuse with this guy?
We are talking about this guy, right?
Http://www.metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=289022

I mean, no offense dude, but take yourself.
You have 85 ratings that are 9-10 and only 0 ratings that are 1-3 out of 153 in total, giving you an average of 8.57 (as of now).
Your average rating is 2.57 points away from a 6, while the guy you refer to is just 2.4 points off.
What makes your rating distribution better compared to this guy's in terms of rating abuse?

My point is, dude, and please dont feel offended, that rating abuse should equally be considered with too high ratings as with too low ratings.

I consider rating abuse to be when votes are cast with the specific intention of either inflating or deflating overall album scores.

That can mean tanking discographies or albums competing with personal favorites in the charts with 1s and 2 or doling out 9s and 10s as if masterpieces are produced by the minute and everything they shuffle on Spotify or Deezer is worthy of being inducted into the Metal Hall of Fame.

Obviously the user in question has an intriguing voting pattern as all 23 1 votes are for albums released in 2021, but they do show signs of discerning quality as the entire voting spectrum is being used.

You can always PM users who vote in ways you don't understand or consider to be flagrant violations of your personal ethics in an attempt to engage in meaningful conversation about our perceptive differences, and if your keen sense of justice is validated by way of a confession of abusing the system, then you can contact myself or your other local Mods with proof and we'll deal with it accordingly. Until then, if a user's votes are deemed "questionable" at worst, it really isn't worth the fuss to nuke them from orbit or to send a strongly worded warning. We're more concerned with egregious examples that can be unanimously agreed upon as harmful to the sanctity of the highest honor known to metalheads: forcing your opinion on others.

Written by Redel on 15.05.2021 at 01:13

Written by Nejde on 14.05.2021 at 18:23

Just recently I started noticing this guy too. He has 55 ratings that are 1-3 and only 6 ratings that are 8-10 out of 91 in total giving him an average of just 3,6. Of the albums released today (May 14th) he has given five albums a 1. So maybe time to reconsider if it's rating abuse or not.

I am not getting your point I guess. Why precisely is it time to reconsider rating abuse with this guy?
We are talking about this guy, right?
Http://www.metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=289022

I mean, no offense dude, but take yourself.
You have 85 ratings that are 9-10 and only 0 ratings that are 1-3 out of 153 in total, giving you an average of 8.57 (as of now).
Your average rating is 2.57 points away from a 6, while the guy you refer to is just 2.4 points off.
What makes your rating distribution better compared to this guy's in terms of rating abuse?

My point is, dude, and please dont feel offended, that rating abuse should equally be considered with too high ratings as with too low ratings.

Difference is that I have given my 153 ratings over the last 11 years. Also I usually only rate albums that I really like from bands that I really like. The 9's and 10's are albums that I listen to regularly, all year around. If an album is not to my taste I don't listen to it enough to give a fair rating thus not handing out less than 7's. For instance I don't care at all for AC/DC. That doens't mean that I go in and rate their albums low because they're not 1's, 2's and 3's. I just don't like them that's all, so I don't rate an album considered very good in general low just because I don't like it. Otherwise I could go in and hand out 1-3's to almost every power metal album here on MS. Instead I let the people who actually like it give a more proper rating. I don't like giving negative ratings but that's just me.

But when someone just goes off rating every new album every week with mostly 5's or lower I would call that (at least some sort of) rating abuse. And like someone asked earlier in this thread, why torture yourself listening to music you really hate just so you can hand out mostly 1-3 ratings? Also when users are rating bands like Gojira, Soen and The Ocean for example with 1's I would call that rating abuse because none of these bands releases albums that deserve 1-3 ratings. Overall production and song writing are way to good for such low ratings no matter your personal taste. Lulu on the other hand does, that's the difference, at least for me.

^ I think you are assuming everyone votes like you (voting mostly for the albums you pretty much like)

Maybe the dude is just a MS follower with taste different from the staff, so he sees some news, sees everyone enjoying something vehemently and clicks out of curiosity, then... For him it sounds like crap.
Then he just votes it as crap. That´s it.

That'd also explain why he casts votes on things released recently.

Written by Nejde on 15.05.2021 at 12:10

Difference is that I have given my 153 ratings over the last 11 years. Also I usually only rate albums that I really like from bands that I really like. The 9's and 10's are albums that I listen to regularly, all year around. If an album is not to my taste I don't listen to it enough to give a fair rating thus not handing out less than 7's. For instance I don't care at all for AC/DC. That doens't mean that I go in and rate their albums low because they're not 1's, 2's and 3's. I just don't like them that's all, so I don't rate an album considered very good in general low just because I don't like it. Otherwise I could go in and hand out 1-3's to almost every power metal album here on MS. Instead I let the people who actually like it give a more proper rating. I don't like giving negative ratings but that's just me.

But when someone just goes off rating every new album every week with mostly 5's or lower I would call that (at least some sort of) rating abuse. And like someone asked earlier in this thread, why torture yourself listening to music you really hate just so you can hand out mostly 1-3 ratings? Also when users are rating bands like Gojira, Soen and The Ocean for example with 1's I would call that rating abuse because none of these bands releases albums that deserve 1-3 ratings. Overall production and song writing are way to good for such low ratings no matter your personal taste. Lulu on the other hand does, that's the difference, at least for me.

Noone should be forced to listen to albums they dont like or rate albums that they dont feel confortable with rating. Fair enough. But the behavior you describe is the exact reason we have overly high average ratings on MS.

Now, overly high ratings may or may not be an issue to people. That also depends on their understanding of rating abuse. And when it comes to rating abuse people just appear to have differing understanding of what a fair concept of rating abuse should convey, and I guess that is totally fine because there simply is not just one concept of rating abuse, there are just too many issues in detail that you may consider abusive or not.

I have come across vaguely two "concepts" of rating abuse so far. The first one is close to what you describe as your view of rating abuse. It is based on the assumption that there is some common knowledge on the objective quality of an album and this objective quality determines the rules of rating. If they are not followed it is seen as rating abuse. As you say, low rating on Gojira is prohibited.
The other one would be not to look too much at someones ratings on single albums because the objective quality might be too hard to determine precisely, or just not known to everybody. You rather focus on people's distribution of ratings overall.
I guess I would rather go with that second approach.

But I am aware that this is not an easy issue, as I said, and also that most users on MS would rather see the first approach as a fair concept of rating abuse, at least that is my impression.

One final point: Because things seem to be really complex with this topic let's be cautious with blaming someone for rating abuse.

Written by Redel on 15.05.2021 at 15:16

As you say, low rating on Gojira is prohibited.

I didn't say that it's prohibited to rate a 1 on Gojira because everyone has the right to their own opinion. But to call Gojira '1 - worst ever' or ' 2- pure shit' is just ridiculous even if you don't like them. That's like comparing them to Lucid Dreaming's The Chronicles Pt. III from last year and that album still has a 3,2 rating. 1 and to 2 ratings should be for music that has awful production, mixing, singing and so on and that is genuinely bad, not for music that actually has great production regardless of your taste in said music.
But as you say, there are no clear lines as to what is rating abuse or not. But if we detect a rating pattern that seems suspicious from a user, we can report it in this thread and let the mods decide if it's abuse or not.

Written by Nejde on 15.05.2021 at 18:00

But as you say, there are no clear lines as to what is rating abuse or not. But if we detect a rating pattern that seems suspicious from a user, we can report it in this thread and let the mods decide if it's abuse or not.

Exactly. But also:

Written by Redel on 15.05.2021 at 15:16

Because things seem to be really complex with this topic let's be cautious with blaming someone for rating abuse.

I am not trying to be diplomatic, but you all have valid points. Mods read every comment posted here and sooner or later we check out the voting patterns of the users mentioned. If you don't see any change (deletion of album votes, user ban, etc.), it can mean two things: a) we decided that the user is not clearly violating the rules, or b) we haven't gotten around checking the user out yet.

Bear in mind that a lot of moderating takes place before you people even notice and report it.

Http://www.metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=306444 this guy is pretty weird IMO
30 10s , 2 5s and others are below 5

Written by Mehrad on 03.06.2021 at 20:49

Http://www.metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=306444 this guy is pretty weird IMO
30 10s , 2 5s and others are below 5

weird - yes, kind of, but I don't know if it's abuse here.

Written by JoHn Doe on 03.06.2021 at 22:32

Written by Mehrad on 03.06.2021 at 20:49

Http://www.metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=306444 this guy is pretty weird IMO
30 10s , 2 5s and others are below 5

but I don't know if it's abuse here.

It's clearly a vote abuse.

Written by Cynic Metalhead on 04.06.2021 at 13:06

Written by JoHn Doe on 03.06.2021 at 22:32

Written by Mehrad on 03.06.2021 at 20:49

Http://www.metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=306444 this guy is pretty weird IMO
30 10s , 2 5s and others are below 5

but I don't know if it's abuse here.

It's clearly a vote abuse.

well then, nuke'em all.

I try to be as fair as I possibly can with my ratings, I actually enjoy rating albums, and sharing and comparing my ratings with others.
I admit there are some bands I realy dislike, but I won't go out of my way to rate their albums low deliberately, only if I really think the album is genuinely that bad I will rate it low,

The one thing that I liked most about this website when I first joned is the rating system, which to me seems fair overall, I know there will always be a few that use tactical voting to see their favourite albums rise in the top 200, and give bad ratings deliberately, this tho has not seemed to have much effect on the overall chart, because the majority of people on this site vote fairly.

And I don't have a problem with anyone rating top albums with low scores, for instance rating Ride The Lightning a 1, if they can come up with a justified and valid reason for doing so.

Written by Mehrad on 03.06.2021 at 20:49

Http://www.metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=306444 this guy is pretty weird IMO
30 10s , 2 5s and others are below 5

It is abuse and it has been dealt with. Thanks for pointing it out.

Http://www.metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=310733
this guy seems to have made an account just to get that Duskmourn to the top

Written by Mehrad on 22.06.2021 at 20:15

Http://www.metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=310733
this guy seems to have made an account just to get that Duskmourn to the top

Good catch.

edit: Nice day today in Mod Country. I had some time to go through people's votes (big bands releasing albums help a lot - thank you Helloween) so I deleted hundreds of votes and permabanned a few accounts. I really wonder why you do it, you will be caught in the end.

Written by Nejde on 15.05.2021 at 12:10

Also I usually only rate albums that I really like from bands that I really like. The 9's and 10's are albums that I listen to regularly, all year around. If an album is not to my taste I don't listen to it enough to give a fair rating thus not handing out less than 7's. For instance I don't care at all for AC/DC. That doens't mean that I go in and rate their albums low because they're not 1's, 2's and 3's. I just don't like them that's all, so I don't rate an album considered very good in general low just because I don't like it. Otherwise I could go in and hand out 1-3's to almost every power metal album here on MS. Instead I let the people who actually like it give a more proper rating. I don't like giving negative ratings but that's just me.

I think I know what you mean. I have the same issue. If I start listening to an album and I don't like the first song or the second song, I usually stop listening because I don't want to force myself to listen to an album that seems to be consistently bad. However, I usually don't give that album a rating. Why? Well, because I haven't listened to all of it and I find it wouldn't be fair to evaluate an album which I've only heard a little of (even if that little bit sucked).
Sometimes if an album is highly regarded but I don't like it at first, I'll give it a chance again later. But sometimes I don't want to force myself to listen to something, even though the rest might be surprisingly good and only the part that I heard wasn't good .
That's why my ratings are mostly a 7 and above - because those are albums that I've listened to all the way through (and those are usually ones that I liked... since I wouldn't listen to all of it if I didn't like it )
Does that make sense?

I think I've handed out a bunch of 10s and not a single 1 so far. I dunno, I just don't finish albums that I hate and I don't rate albums I haven't finished.

As for my 10s, I've given every single Death album a 10. Surely someone here will agree that this band had one of the best discographies in metal. Of course not everybody will like all their albums. Like if you don't care for Tech Death or Prog Death, you will probably only enjoy the first couple of albums. But if you like all these sub-genres, I think it's legit to give all Death albums a perfect rating. Every single one has merit.

When I do give an album a 10 I'm asking myself if there is anything I would change about the album to make it better. If no significant flaws come to mind and I loved the journey it took me on, I'll give it a 10.

That said, if decimals were available, I'd probably lower most of my 10s down to 9.5s.

And just for clarification: I always listen to music on my giant headphones for maximum immersion. I try not to do anything else while listening to an album I've never heard before (except reading lyrics if available). When I find myself getting bored and fiddling around on my phone during some of the songs, it's not gonna be a 10. I try to listen to an album at least three times before rating it a 10 and it has to hold my attention during those repeat spins as well.

There are a few more minor factors that go into my choice of rating and I might still change my mind later and lower or raise ratings.

A quick walk through of the top 10 reveals several folks that seem fairly blatant for 2021 ratings abuse
http://www.metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=122534&r_order=year
http://www.metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=146367&r_order=year
http://www.metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=125988&r_order=year
http://www.metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=187175&r_order=year

I'll cut it off there, but it seems this year the trolls are even worse than last year (Aside from the whole Paradise Lost supervote thing). Well over half the bands in the top 10-20 seem to have either benefited from or suffered from ratings abuse. Just...I don't get it...

Https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=316952

Https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=289375 look this guy.

Written by ChapuLviz on 18.11.2021 at 16:31

Https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=289375 look this guy.

Quite an interesting rating distribution, indeed.
Love it or hate it.
How in the world would you choose to rate over 2k albums like that?

This user's appreciation for Swallow The Sun goes a little too far.

Interesting. A pair of 10s and a pair of 1s, and both of the 1s are competition for the 10s.
https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=148832&r_order=year

damn, Thy Catafalque's catching hell from some people, most of their super low ratings are obviously silly.

Written by sgtrobo on 26.12.2021 at 23:09

Interesting. A pair of 10s and a pair of 1s, and both of the 1s are competition for the 10s.
https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=148832&r_order=year

damn, Thy Catafalque's catching hell from some people, most of their super low ratings are obviously silly.

Well spotted, classic case of rating abuse.

Written by Nejde on 15.05.2021 at 12:10

I could go in and hand out 1-3's to almost every power metal album here on MS. Instead I let the people who actually like it give a more proper rating. I don't like giving negative ratings but that's just me.

exactly. I tend to rate bands I like more, and if I have low ratings for someone, it's because it's a band that I know is good but put out something atrocious (Lulu, St. Anger, Illud, Cold Lake, etc)

Written by sgtrobo on 26.12.2021 at 23:09

damn, Thy Catafalque's catching hell from some people, most of their super low ratings are obviously silly.

I intend to go through as many ratings as I can of the top albums by the end of the year. Every abuser will get a minimum of 30 days to permanent ban depending on other factors (how long they are registered, other website contributions, etc.). I don't care about keeping someone here who has only registered to give 10 to all StS albums while tanking the other contenders, and never visits again.