As has been pointed out in other, more specific threads, such as those concerning either Christianity, Islam or Judaism; I have decided to get things going with this one, a general one. A thread where the concepts of religion and spirituality can be discussed openly, in all their grandeur. In other words, there are no specifics here. No partiqular topic that must be adhered to, other than the wide, guiding tense of Religion and Spirituality
So, what are examples of things that could and should be discussed? Well, it's up to you!
What is the nature of life? What is the nature of God? Is there a heaven, or a hell? An existance of an after life? What is the soul? Why are we here?
You get the idea. Relate these questions and others like them -similar to them- to yourself and what you feel about life, death; and existance.
EDIT: I suppose I should make it clearer, that this thread is designed for discussion and debate, by those members of Metalstorm who are not affiliated with any religion or spiritual path in partiqular.
...But anyway, as a Christian, I believe not only digging deeper to discover what my faith is about, but also digging deeper into the beliefs of the rest of the world, so I can understand why I don't believe what others do.
I agree with what Hrothdane said above but this tickled my funny bone. Don't you think you should hold off deciding what the absolute truth of existence and everything is after you've looked at everything? Otherwise you're making up your mind and choosing the first thing that comes along (ie: growing up in America and being encultured by Christians) and then deciding why you don't believe in anything else (ie: it's not Christianity). If you're going to claim that is some sort of "search" for truth, then that is a total fallacy and a personal condemnation of free thought and inquiry altogether.
And please, if you ever reply to this, answer my question first and don't just turn around and ask the same question. I understand and accept that we are all encultured into our society, but I am curious as to how you see it. I think you are a Christian because you have been encultured by a largely Christian society and I'm convinced that if you had been born in India or the Mid-East then you would be Hindu or Muslim, respectively. To me, it's very similar to language or customs. Whereas you may think you are a Christian because it is the truth.
no religion is all-bad.. and most certainly none is perfect ... so, to 'pick' a religion to believe in is an absolute hoax and a fallacy. you either believe in the COMMON GOOD in all religions or you dont.. but to believe a certain religion is somehow 'better' than others... this is just pointless... most (if not) all religions promote good morals; justice, peace, and love (then again they promote violence and killing and some other shit but nevermind that ) ... so, if someone is to 'pick' a religion, he/she'll simply overlook the 'bad stuff' in his religion of choice and point out the 'bad stuff' in other religions... so, what is more relevant is believing in 'morals' rather than religion ... if you have certain morals (let it be religious-based or not it doesnt matter) if you are a moral person then it wouldnt matter what religion you follow or even do not follow one at all .. wont make much difference... it would be just a 'label' .. like one's nationality for example. i'm an egyptian, he's an american, she's a christian, they're muslims, ...etc. labels, while if you believe in the core concepts of 'good' .. it wouldn't matter which religion you follow.. different religions are simply different 'versions' of the story behind these morals ... so, follow the core essence and leave the shallow shell ... follow the morals itself and nevermind the theatrics associated. hope i delivered my message clearly
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None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free
Johann Wolfgang van Goethe 1749-1832
no religion is all-bad.. and most certainly none is perfect ... so, to 'pick' a religion to believe in is an absolute hoax and a fallacy. you either believe in the COMMON GOOD in all religions or you dont.. but to believe a certain religion is somehow 'better' than others... this is just pointless... most (if not) all religions promote good morals; justice, peace, and love (then again they promote violence and killing and some other shit but nevermind that ) ... so, if someone is to 'pick' a religion, he/she'll simply overlook the 'bad stuff' in his religion of choice and point out the 'bad stuff' in other religions... so, what is more relevant is believing in 'morals' rather than religion ... if you have certain morals (let it be religious-based or not it doesnt matter) if you are a moral person then it wouldnt matter what religion you follow or even do not follow one at all .. wont make much difference... it would be just a 'label' .. like one's nationality for example. i'm an egyptian, he's an american, she's a christian, they're muslims, ...etc. labels, while if you believe in the core concepts of 'good' .. it wouldn't matter which religion you follow.. different religions are simply different 'versions' of the story behind these morals ... so, follow the core essence and leave the shallow shell ... follow the morals itself and nevermind the theatrics associated. hope i delivered my message clearly
You did, very well said! I just don't understand why people have to keep the baggage of religion. You see, if it was just morals as you claimed, then there would be no need for any myths or anything supernatural. Unless of course people need those things to believe in morals. But then again, I don't really understand that notion either. If you're only good because god commands it, then I wouldn't think you're very good at all.
I guess it all extends beyond just what we can discuss on a forum. Something that extends thousands, if not millions of years of both cultural and physical evolution and thousands of miles around the globe. Something that I am humble enough to realize I will never fully comprehend, nor do I claim to know the absolute truth of (unlike many other people in this world).
I think that myths are quite simple and complicated at the same time. Simple for what they serve as -a purpose- but more difficult if applied more layers, explanations etc.
The most interesting about that theme is how such stories manage to be successful. The more "acceptable" a myth becomes, it ends to become not only successful, but also ..solid truth and reality -ultimate goal-. I think that it's a bit tricky but sometimes we cannot define & comprehend rationally/clearly such things. And i feel that's because the lack of information we have mostly (til now?), you know partially informed and such. I see this is how these things work, for example use a pattern of a myth and maybe you can create your own religion-if you organize it, there you go -in the business Or you can create your own stories (eating some mushrooms maybe, or drink alcohol, -combine it with fasting- it's an old recipe after all) e.g superman is a myth -and a good one- but it was made quite recent who knows in the future what will happen
... I see this is how these things work, for example use a pattern of a myth and maybe you can create your own religion-if you organize it, there you go -in the business Or you can create your own stories (eating some mushrooms maybe, or drink alcohol, -combine it with fastening- it's an old recipe after all) e.g superman is a myth -and a good one- but it was made quite recent who knows in the future what will happen
Exactly what L. Ron Hubbard did with $cientology ... turned his science fiction novel 'dianetics' into a religion for profit !
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None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free
Johann Wolfgang van Goethe 1749-1832
The day that your story turns into: I lost my arm and then I prayed and it grew back, then I will believe in a god. That would be miraculous. Fever dropping is not a miraculous healing. I don't want to sound rude, but I see a real danger in this kind of attitude, namely that people think that praying can solve their medical problems(I am not talking about your situation, you were about to go to the emergency room). But a lot of people died this way, even more saddening is that a lot of innocent children also died because of the faith of their parents. On a more lighter note, whenever I hear of such a story, I think of an alternative interpretation of the whole god-intervenes-in-your-life-thingy: For me a church with a lightning-rod is the very definition of lack of faith
So how do you explain that my 104°F temperature dropping back to normal within a couple of minutes at the exact same time people laid hands on me and prayed?
That's quite simple, false attribution on your part, though I'd ask for proof of said event too in a formal setting.
And absolutely, even religion now has been influenced by things we call mythology, imo all existing, and extinct religions are mythology.
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"Both optimists and pessimists contribute to our society. The optimist invents the airplane and the pessimist the parachute." G B Stern
"Society is like a stew. If you don't stir it up every once in a while then a layer of scum float u
The day that your story turns into: I lost my arm and then I prayed and it grew back, then I will believe in a god. That would be miraculous. Fever dropping is not a miraculous healing. I don't want to sound rude, but I see a real danger in this kind of attitude, namely that people think that praying can solve their medical problems(I am not talking about your situation, you were about to go to the emergency room). But a lot of people died this way, even more saddening is that a lot of innocent children also died because of the faith of their parents. On a more lighter note, whenever I hear of such a story, I think of an alternative interpretation of the whole god-intervenes-in-your-life-thingy: For me a church with a lightning-rod is the very definition of lack of faith
So how do you explain that my 104°F temperature dropping back to normal within a couple of minutes at the exact same time people laid hands on me and prayed?
That's quite simple, false attribution on your part, though I'd ask for proof of said event too in a formal setting.
And absolutely, even religion now has been influenced by things we call mythology, imo all existing, and extinct religions are mythology.
"A myth is a religion which nobody believes in any more." I like that quote, although I've forgotten who it was that said it (think it might have been Lenin, but I'm not sure could also have been Richard Dawkins or somebody close to him).
Of course religion is influenced by mythology. Mythology was religion at some point. You think judaism started in Israel? Not a chance. It is believed to have originated in Mesopotamia (current Iraq) with the Sumerians and the Babylonians. You think Christmas is supposed to be in December? Think again. The romans put it in december because they couldn't get the pagans in the conquered lands up north to stop celebrating their pagan holidays.
Hell, we still celebrate Midsummer, only we have put a cross on top of the pole.
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Free nations are peaceful nations. Free nations don't attack each other. Free nations don't develop weapons of mass destruction!
- George W. Bush, ex-president of the United States of America
Myths are just existentially relevant stories whose intent is to teach something about humanity, the transcendent and the world. They're not "untrue accounts of history" like people on TV use the word. I think it's sad that our ability to think and communicate in terms of myths and symbols has degraded so. Myself included; I just don't feel the relevance of religious symbols and mythology. I understand it, from a perspective of knowledge, but I don't feel it.
Judaism most certainly started in Israel, by the way. Well, insofar as any authentic religion "starts" anywhere; it formed in Israel and among Babylionian diaspora, but what we would call modern Judaism only formed at around 70 CE after the destruction of the second temple and in a looser sense, after the destruction of the first temple. So most of the OT narratives don't actually talk about Jews in any sense of the word. But yeah, they're definetely mythology, stories with existential and theological aims.
The day that your story turns into: I lost my arm and then I prayed and it grew back, then I will believe in a god. That would be miraculous. Fever dropping is not a miraculous healing. I don't want to sound rude, but I see a real danger in this kind of attitude, namely that people think that praying can solve their medical problems(I am not talking about your situation, you were about to go to the emergency room). But a lot of people died this way, even more saddening is that a lot of innocent children also died because of the faith of their parents. On a more lighter note, whenever I hear of such a story, I think of an alternative interpretation of the whole god-intervenes-in-your-life-thingy: For me a church with a lightning-rod is the very definition of lack of faith
So how do you explain that my 104°F temperature dropping back to normal within a couple of minutes at the exact same time people laid hands on me and prayed?
That's quite simple, false attribution on your part, though I'd ask for proof of said event too in a formal setting.
And absolutely, even religion now has been influenced by things we call mythology, imo all existing, and extinct religions are mythology.
"A myth is a religion which nobody believes in any more." I like that quote, although I've forgotten who it was that said it (think it might have been Lenin, but I'm not sure could also have been Richard Dawkins or somebody close to him).
Of course religion is influenced by mythology. Mythology was religion at some point. You think judaism started in Israel? Not a chance. It is believed to have originated in Mesopotamia (current Iraq) with the Sumerians and the Babylonians. You think Christmas is supposed to be in December? Think again. The romans put it in december because they couldn't get the pagans in the conquered lands up north to stop celebrating their pagan holidays.
Hell, we still celebrate Midsummer, only we have put a cross on top of the pole.
Right on! Sadly I've only had time to read the blind watchmaker myself.
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"Both optimists and pessimists contribute to our society. The optimist invents the airplane and the pessimist the parachute." G B Stern
"Society is like a stew. If you don't stir it up every once in a while then a layer of scum float u
Myths are just existentially relevant stories whose intent is to teach something about humanity, the transcendent and the world. They're not "untrue accounts of history" like people on TV use the word. I think it's sad that our ability to think and communicate in terms of myths and symbols has degraded so. Myself included; I just don't feel the relevance of religious symbols and mythology. I understand it, from a perspective of knowledge, but I don't feel it.
Judaism most certainly started in Israel, by the way. Well, insofar as any authentic religion "starts" anywhere; it formed in Israel and among Babylionian diaspora, but what we would call modern Judaism only formed at around 70 CE after the destruction of the second temple and in a looser sense, after the destruction of the first temple. So most of the OT narratives don't actually talk about Jews in any sense of the word. But yeah, they're definetely mythology, stories with existential and theological aims.
What is today called judaism started in Israel, however:
* Abraham's wife was from Uruk, which was a Sumerian city believed to have been located in Iraq.
* Sodom and Gomorrah are believed to have been located in Iraq as well, or at least in association with the rivers Eufrat and Tigris.
* Much of the mythology of the old testament dates back to the Sumerians. The history of Noah's Ark is a good example, which is believed to have originated as a part of the Epic of Gilgamesh.
* If the old testament is to be examined, it is clear that the early jews worshipped Baal in some form, whom was a Babylonian/Sumerian god. The part about Moses renouncing Baal is not coincidental, there is a reason it's there. It has been proposed that it is some kind of illustration of the conflicting interests between the people dedicated to the old Sumerian/Babylonian god Baal and the followers of the god An/Anu (has been proposed to be the same god that is now called God, Jehova, Jahve or Allah).
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Free nations are peaceful nations. Free nations don't attack each other. Free nations don't develop weapons of mass destruction!
- George W. Bush, ex-president of the United States of America
"If the old testament is to be examined, it is clear that the early jews worshipped Baal in some form, whom was a Babylonian/Sumerian god. The part about Moses renouncing Baal is not coincidental, there is a reason it's there. It has been proposed that it is some kind of illustration of the conflicting interests between the people dedicated to the old Sumerian/Babylonian god Baal and the followers of the god An/Anu (has been proposed to be the same god that is now called God, Jehova, Jahve or Allah). "
So it's representation maybe of both a sort of conflict and transition? (Not my area of education by any means lol)
"Sodom and Gomorrah are believed to have been located in Iraq as well, or at least in association with the rivers Eufrat and Tigris"
I think just maybe they might be waiting to find these cities for a long long long time to come.
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"Both optimists and pessimists contribute to our society. The optimist invents the airplane and the pessimist the parachute." G B Stern
"Society is like a stew. If you don't stir it up every once in a while then a layer of scum float u
I think that myths are quite simple and complicated at the same time. Simple for what they serve as -a purpose- but more difficult if applied more layers, explanations etc.
The most interesting about that theme is how such stories manage to be successful. The more "acceptable" a myth becomes, it ends to become not only successful, but also ..solid truth and reality -ultimate goal-. I think that it's a bit tricky but sometimes we cannot define & comprehend rationally/clearly such things. And i feel that's because the lack of information we have mostly (til now?), you know partially informed and such. I see this is how these things work, for example use a pattern of a myth and maybe you can create your own religion-if you organize it, there you go -in the business Or you can create your own stories (eating some mushrooms maybe, or drink alcohol, -combine it with fasting- it's an old recipe after all) e.g superman is a myth -and a good one- but it was made quite recent who knows in the future what will happen
hahaha this is a good point but you know something it's just hard to live when you believe in a religion(any religion) and it's also hard to live without one that's why I made my own mix who knows maybe my combined religion will be the only religion after 1000 or 2000 years
That's quite simple, false attribution on your part, though I'd ask for proof of said event too in a formal setting.
How do you figure it is false attribution? I am curious as to your reasoning on this manner. And as for proof, what sort of proof would you like?
Well I figure it's a false attribution for many a reason. One we first need to prove that the deity, entity, etc that gave these people the powers to heal you do in fact exist to even give these powers. So, testable proof of said deity first. I assume your deity to be "Jesus", if so bring him to my door, we'd be happy to have you come have tea with us. 2ndly I can then ask/examine, etc. if your deity really did in fact give him the powers to heal you, then question the deity why he made you sick in the first place. See how that works? In many religions the religion created the issue then solves the issue in order to appear effective.
At any rate this is like the Flying Spaghetti Monster belief that lack of pirates causes disasters. It's a false correlation.
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"Both optimists and pessimists contribute to our society. The optimist invents the airplane and the pessimist the parachute." G B Stern
"Society is like a stew. If you don't stir it up every once in a while then a layer of scum float u
Well I figure it's a false attribution for many a reason. One we first need to prove that the deity, entity, etc that gave these people the powers to heal you do in fact exist to even give these powers. So, testable proof of said deity first. I assume your deity to be "Jesus", if so bring him to my door, we'd be happy to have you come have tea with us. 2ndly I can then ask/examine, etc. if your deity really did in fact give him the powers to heal you, then question the deity why he made you sick in the first place. See how that works? In many religions the religion created the issue then solves the issue in order to appear effective.
I was really hoping for a rather intelligent conversation on the matter, not a rude and inane banter.
Well I figure it's a false attribution for many a reason. One we first need to prove that the deity, entity, etc that gave these people the powers to heal you do in fact exist to even give these powers. So, testable proof of said deity first. I assume your deity to be "Jesus", if so bring him to my door, we'd be happy to have you come have tea with us. 2ndly I can then ask/examine, etc. if your deity really did in fact give him the powers to heal you, then question the deity why he made you sick in the first place. See how that works? In many religions the religion created the issue then solves the issue in order to appear effective.
I was really hoping for a rather intelligent conversation on the matter, not a rude and inane banter.
Oh oh me tooooo, but I know better, so I expected an inferiority complex, and I got it. The only reason that's "banter" to you is becuse you can't provide me proof of you supersition. Now, I will be rude.
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"Both optimists and pessimists contribute to our society. The optimist invents the airplane and the pessimist the parachute." G B Stern
"Society is like a stew. If you don't stir it up every once in a while then a layer of scum float u
Oh oh me tooooo, but I know better, so I expected an inferiority complex, and I got it. The only reason that's "banter" to you is becuse you can't provide me proof of you supersition. Now, I will be rude.
You are correct. I can't provide you with any proof that you want. But really, do I need to? You seem to already have made up your mind before even getting to know me or what I have faith in. But for me, that incident is just one of many I have experienced that have helped to shape my belief and faith in a great many things.
Now if you are truly interested in understanding, or at least hearing about, my experiences I am more than willing to share them with you. Please just let me know if that fancies you.
Oh oh me tooooo, but I know better, so I expected an inferiority complex, and I got it. The only reason that's "banter" to you is becuse you can't provide me proof of you supersition. Now, I will be rude.
You are correct. I can't provide you with any proof that you want. But really, do I need to? You seem to already have made up your mind before even getting to know me or what I have faith in. But for me, that incident is just one of many I have experienced that have helped to shape my belief and faith in a great many things.
Now if you are truly interested in understanding, or at least hearing about, my experiences I am more than willing to share them with you. Please just let me know if that fancies you.
Okay, all good with me, that was the point of how I went about this, to make sure you know I don't accept faith as proof. Of course I have my position on religion, but don't say you. It's not personal I have devout friend, you might end up one of em. On that note I've not made up my mind about you at all, you've only posted 4 sentences to me. I may not believe what you believe, but I will lend an ear anytime, so post away.
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"Both optimists and pessimists contribute to our society. The optimist invents the airplane and the pessimist the parachute." G B Stern
"Society is like a stew. If you don't stir it up every once in a while then a layer of scum float u
I think that myths are quite simple and complicated at the same time. Simple for what they serve as -a purpose- but more difficult if applied more layers, explanations etc.
The most interesting about that theme is how such stories manage to be successful. The more "acceptable" a myth becomes, it ends to become not only successful, but also ..solid truth and reality -ultimate goal-. I think that it's a bit tricky but sometimes we cannot define & comprehend rationally/clearly such things. And i feel that's because the lack of information we have mostly (til now?), you know partially informed and such. I see this is how these things work, for example use a pattern of a myth and maybe you can create your own religion-if you organize it, there you go -in the business Or you can create your own stories (eating some mushrooms maybe, or drink alcohol, -combine it with fasting- it's an old recipe after all) e.g superman is a myth -and a good one- but it was made quite recent who knows in the future what will happen
hahaha this is a good point but you know something it's just hard to live when you believe in a religion(any religion) and it's also hard to live without one that's why I made my own mix who knows maybe my combined religion will be the only religion after 1000 or 2000 years
well, just saw your quote "it's just hard to live when you......"
Many people think likewise, and -from what i observe- especially young people. I can discuss this endlessly , using examples or try to use some philosophy here, you know- an effort to make it easier.... but you know what? I try to understand this in a way of "maturing & growing up process". It works for me at least... A part of our lives, take it, struggle to make it personal, leave it behind completely or whatever. As you say "my own mix" -it's extremely personal after all.
My questions and personal research is -now on- why these things happened, how, when (time periods), what they serve, are they any good? , are there any drawbacks, who are using these things and, of course why, what has happened to our conscience (and the collective one) and many other details. Details that scholars are providing, with combined research in many respective fields. It's like a detective research and a quite interesting approach. More like a religiology hint/approach, if that word is a valid one in English. (It exists in my lang though)
As for the myths & mythologiess from various places, always a favourite thing to keep us and our imagination occupied.
well, just saw your quote "it's just hard to live when you......"
Many people think likewise, and -from what i observe- especially young people. I can discuss this endlessly , using examples or try to use some philosophy here, you know- an effort to make it easier.... but you know what? I try to understand this in a way of "maturing & growing up process". It works for me at least... A part of our lives, take it, struggle to make it personal, leave it behind completely or whatever. As you say "my own mix" -it's extremely personal after all.
My questions and personal research is -now on- why these things happened, how, when (time periods), what they serve, are they any good? , are there any drawbacks, who are using these things and, of course why, what has happened to our conscience (and the collective one) and many other details. Details that scholars are providing, with combined research in many respective fields. It's like a detective research and a quite interesting approach. More like a religiology hint/approach, if that word is a valid one in English. (It exists in my lang though)
As for the myths & mythologiess from various places, always a favourite thing to keep us and our imagination occupied.
"especially young people.."
well maybe I don't know but what I think religion isn't about science or supernatural things or anything what I mean is I don't find myself forced to believe in everything that my religion says to believe in God ,yet there are things that I do believe in them with or without a religion and it doesn't matter if god likes these things or not
I don't feel like I need some proof to make sure that god exists or something cuz if I asked for a proof the only proof that may satisfy me is seeing god and if I were a God I would prefer to be a bit mystical so maybe if I saw him I wouldn't believe in him cuz I would have a different idea now seeing him would be a proof that he's there but if seeing god is a common thing then I would say that if he was truly a God I shouldn't have seen him cuz he must be greater than that..so I don't know if I really want to see him cuz I might be disappointed
all these questions you've said are important and in my case many of them are still unanswered and I don't care about that cuz sooner or later there will be an answer a good one or at least I hope so look I'm not that person who strongly believe in God..etc. but what I think religion is matter of faith and I can't put my faith in science cuz science usually force you to believe in things 1+1=2 there isn't any other possibility while religion is full of possibilities sure people believe in science cuz they "know" it's true and they know it cuz there's a proof but there's not any proof that god exists that's why it is called faith
@kokosho
Religions surely do not have a scientific orientation, it's not their purpose, it is clear and simple. But science has the benefit to encompass all aspects of our lives, including that one. This does not mean we should always fight and choose a side -in our discussions- and try to defend it, it is boring i think. Also proof & the final beliefs is not the requested -direct- thing. (There is a long road in-between to be walked until we research the whole "building", maybe a personal one, for each and every one of us, with knowledge our major guide, and a clear mind). Another thing i want to mention is faith. For me it's a nice/beautiful word and a useful one. But i want to separate it from the "strict & dogmatic" for reasons that suit mostly my character. I try to avoid this, due to the sterility that is created, a constant stagnation, not beneficial at all. I see this as a duty, not as a "misleading reaction of evil that is everywhere and seeks out chances to plant me seeds of doubt" ™. On the other hand i try to be fair and think fair, search & find negative aspects -even the "scientific" ones.
@kokosho
Religions surely do not have a scientific orientation, it's not their purpose, it is clear and simple. But science has the benefit to encompass all aspects of our lives, including that one. This does not mean we should always fight and choose a side -in our discussions- and try to defend it, it is boring i think. Also proof & the final beliefs is not the requested -direct- thing. (There is a long road in-between to be walked until we research the whole "building", maybe a personal one, for each and every one of us, with knowledge our major guide, and a clear mind). Another thing i want to mention is faith. For me it's a nice/beautiful word and a useful one. But i want to separate it from the "strict & dogmatic" for reasons that suit mostly my character. I try to avoid this, due to the sterility that is created, a constant stagnation, not beneficial at all. I see this as a duty, not as a "misleading reaction of evil that is everywhere and seeks out chances to plant me seeds of doubt" ™. On the other hand i try to be fair and think fair, search & find negative aspects -even the "scientific" ones.
well from what I see in Islam there are some scientific orientation.sure it is cuz it's a discussion not a fighting when I discuss something I want to know more about it and I want to know how different people look at things differently maybe change my thoughts and opinions so sure it's boring to get outta a discussion and you see that nothing is changed in you
when I said faith sure I didn't mean the strict and dogmatic dogmas are closer to rules than faith closer to the idea of 1+1=2 I know dogmas usually based on faith but since most people who have dogmas never try to find faith in the dogma they believe in,the dogma turned into some stupid rules that doesn't suit our lives and personalities
let me tell you something everyone thinks that he\she is trying to be fair and think fair.people who think that there's a god for example think that it's unfair to even say "what if god is not exist"and when you ask them if they thought about that they would say that they did and they found out that there is god and if you might say to them why they would say that it's unfair to believe that there's not and they truly believe that they're fair so I don't think I can say that I'm "trying" to think fair my mind tells me that I am but do I know that I'm fair with my thoughts?no I don't
Usually different points of view/opinions are personal adjustments we make, right? Anyway, I think that critical thinking has many levels, and is closely related to other things such as the environment that we grow up, our own families and friends, let's add the cultural stimulants -that's even more definitive, and many other minor factors. The levels (variety/interest) that someone can discuss upon such themes -and don't cross the little red line that he already has set for himself, you know it's a bit tricky here! Sometimes if we are not so liberal we name it taboo, and that is all. I'm referring here to the "absolute existent god or not/denial" that you said. Some can discuss, others may not be able to start. Some are happy and feel fulfillment with what they have found so far… Others are always on the move, more critical with that. However, the main problem, let's say between these two groups is always the same. That's why I think, in the age of reason is more fruitful to follow some free thinking. For… personal conclusions of course. An interesting sector is history of religions, a step to the right direction imo. The academic side/view, for those who find it interesting. At least for people who are not ultra devoted followers, and have time to read, why not. I think it's good.
So the virus just decided to up and leave my body?
Maybe.
If I only saw this happen once I sure could try to explain it away. Maybe a second healing I could still dismiss with "oh, science will find an answer one day" or something to that effect. But when I have seen healings over and over again, including the complete disappearance of cancer, and doctors have no explanation, the miraculous is a logical choice for me.
Oh, and I by no means think I am more important than anyone else. If anything, my healings are a humbling experience not an ego boost.
Dane, I want to ask you something.
Is this event the reason you became religious, or were you like that already?
If you were, what made you reach that decision? Was it some unfortunate event like the one you just described, or was it something else?
Btw, I'm only asking because I'm curious, I've got intention of starting an argument/discussion or something.
Quote:
In the name of the father, son and holy spirit. Amen.
- Forgive me father for I have sinned, I have done terrible things.
- We all stray from the path of the lords sometimes, child, but with penance you will find your way again.
- Will you help me father?
- Of course child.
- Will you pray for me?
- Yes
- WILL YOU FUCK ME !!!!
*Spawn of Possession - Church Of Deviance*
----
- I love my technical, melodic, my thrash, agressive and fast paced, my sludge, well thought, my heavy, heavier and my metal, ever-growing -
I will have to sit down for a day and read this whole interesting thread.
----
"No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten." -HST
think religion is matter of faith and I can't put my faith in science cuz science usually force you to believe in things 1+1=2 there isn't any other possibility while religion is full of possibilities sure people believe in science cuz they "know" it's true and they know it cuz there's a proof but there's not any proof that god exists that's why it is called faith
I would just like to point out that the statement 1+1=2 is not strictly speaking a scientific one, it is a mathematical one. Science uses empiricism to arrive at theories and conclusions, where as mathematics uses logic only, no empiricism involved.
there's not any proof that god exists that's why it is called faith
There can be no scientific proof of the existence of the supernatural. Science makes no comment on anything other than the material world. Any argument for or against the exitence of a deity is necessarily a philosophical one.
For the past year I've become more and more open to a lot of things you might call 'supernatural' and that have indeed been quite strange. I am not going to explain them here. More important is the change in mindset I found in myself. I found out that these strange things can happen and that, being the skeptical person that I am, wouldn't really need any proof.
It doesn't need proof if you completely trust the person that shares these experiences with you. Why would you need to proof for something that someone really experienced as true and that you can't explain otherwise? I learned that this does not matter. I'm not a scientist. And maybe it would actually hurt the person who trusts you his or her experiences (You deny the existence of something that may have been a very emotional experience for someone). How can you tell if these aren't true if you haven't experienced them yourself?
Just as Dane Train tells us about his healing and dropping of the fever. It is enough proof for himself for his religion. And it actually doesn't really matter what other people think about this.
Everyone has his/her own truth and own reality that is created by all the experiences (this might be called 'proof' if these are your experiences) you've had in your life, together with a few set things at birth.
Why should I complain about some of these experiences if the person in question isn't aggressively trying to convert people or using it in any other way that might hurt or damage people?
Of course, it's not really a bad thing if you really, really want to share the things you experienced with someone else, trying to convince this person of doing the same thing/taking the same path.
I remember my enthusiasm after the first few times with psychedelics. I was so overcome with joy and excitement that I really would want others to experience the same thing. But it just doesn't work that way. You can't push someone for something like that. They will make their own decision and if they will feel the need for it, they will encounter it anyway in some way in the future.
Just as the experiences of my girlfriend, whom I completely trust, made her who she is today. Although I don't really understand certain things and others are really hard to comprehend, I believe whatever she says about these things. And trust me, she isn't someone who would tell anyone about these kind of things, she's actually afraid people won't believe her. She's a very sincere person.
---- And when our eyes will meet there
We will recognize nothing's wrong
) ... so, if someone is to 'pick' a religion, he/she'll simply overlook the 'bad stuff' in his religion of choice and point out the 'bad stuff' in other religions... so, what is more relevant is believing in 'morals' rather than religion ... if you have certain morals (let it be religious-based or not it doesnt matter) if you are a moral person then it wouldnt matter what religion you follow or even do not follow one at all .. wont make much difference... it would be just a 'label' .. like one's nationality for example. i'm an egyptian, he's an american, she's a christian, they're muslims, ...etc. labels, while if you believe in the core concepts of 'good' .. it wouldn't matter which religion you follow.. different religions are simply different 'versions' of the story behind these morals ... so, follow the core essence and leave the shallow shell ... follow the morals itself and nevermind the theatrics associated. hope i delivered my message clearly 
Or you can create your own stories (eating some mushrooms maybe, or drink alcohol, -combine it with fasting- it's an old recipe after all) e.g superman is a myth -and a good one- but it was made quite recent who knows in the future what will happen 
