Written by TheMAGAmvm on 27.10.2012 at 00:38

Written by Vombatus on 26.10.2012 at 22:34

long post

While I totally agree on alot of your points, I wouldn't really say it is a soviet model or with marxist ideology. In a way, it would be like saying that any form of political organization similar to USSR is soviet-like, when it can easily be an amalgam of ideas that were already existent and just have alot in common (kind of normal considering both are suppose to have a similar role, though I'd say the EU is much less developped... and it happens with anything that is somewhat federate/confederate).

And you did mention alot of points that would make us think that EU is USSR in western way, but it's quite easy to mention some other points that make it clearly different, so it's quite relative. I mean, the way EU was built was based upon the neofuncionalism, with a fundamental rol of the spill-over effect (totally not present in USSR).... and it's political institutions are much closer to the consocionalism... nothing to do with USSR model yet it represents it's basis.

I could go on but huge posts on the internet ain't my thing... basically my point is that any form of organisation musn't have to be an imitation/copy of an already existing model (unless it is the intention and you see it at 100%, thing I doubt between URSS/UE), but rather a combination that make then similar on some points and not on some other... In the end it all depends on what variables are chosen for comparison, I had myself a couple of courses where each teacher said different stuff as they picked it up from a different point of view or analysed a different area.

Written by Vombatus on 27.10.2012 at 14:24

Written by TheMAGAmvm on 27.10.2012 at 00:38

Written by Vombatus on 26.10.2012 at 22:34

long post

While I totally agree on alot of your points, I wouldn't really say it is a soviet model or with marxist ideology. In a way, it would be like saying that any form of political organization similar to USSR is soviet-like, when it can easily be an amalgam of ideas that were already existent and just have alot in common (kind of normal considering both are suppose to have a similar role, though I'd say the EU is much less developped... and it happens with anything that is somewhat federate/confederate).

And you did mention alot of points that would make us think that EU is USSR in western way, but it's quite easy to mention some other points that make it clearly different, so it's quite relative. I mean, the way EU was built was based upon the neofuncionalism, with a fundamental rol of the spill-over effect (totally not present in USSR).... and it's political institutions are much closer to the consocionalism... nothing to do with USSR model yet it represents it's basis.

I could go on but huge posts on the internet ain't my thing... basically my point is that any form of organisation musn't have to be an imitation/copy of an already existing model (unless it is the intention and you see it at 100%, thing I doubt between URSS/UE), but rather a combination that make then similar on some points and not on some other... In the end it all depends on what variables are chosen for comparison, I had myself a couple of courses where each teacher said different stuff as they picked it up from a different point of view or analysed a different area.

I didn't say that all forms of organization are identical, I just said the EU is identical with the former USSR. I mentioned a lot of stuff, it would take me days to describe in detail everything. I am following every decision they take and I can see the effects the decisions have.

EU was created in a dubious way, tbh. Check out who Jean Monnet is and Robert Schuman (foreign affairs minster). I am sorry, but an organization, even though at that time was intended to cover the economic issues several countries in Europe were dealing with, is usually created by people that are at the highest place in a state (a president, prime-minister, etc.), not a foreign affairs minister or a person like Jean Monnet that was never elected and he never had a public function (which makes you wonder what was the real purpose in creating this organization).

Unfortunately, EU is an organization with deep roots into stalinism with orwellian concepts backing it. Check out how they try to regulate the lives of the citizen without asking for their consent. The marxist ideology is present in the resolution that created the EU and was then implemented in every country that is now a member, some of them are more extreme, like Sweden, others not. I am basing this since I've read the law from like 15 EU members, I wrote my thesis on this issue, and the marxist ideology is getting more and more like a religion, positive discrimination is promoted everywhere and political corectness is the perfect "jail" for those that are against these policies. (both concepts were elaborated by Karl Marx in his best known book, The Manifesto of the Communist Party)

You can believe what you want, you can believe that EU is a democratic construction created in a non-democratic way and rejects the use of referendum. Check out the Croatian episode, 30% of the population is against entering in the EU, considering the fact that the anti-EU groups have been either censored or annihilated using coercion. I think EU is democratic only when it comes to the people that make it function, but not when it comes to the national states and the citizens residing in them.

Read the book that I suggested in the previous posts, you will definitely see EU differently. You will find more similarities between the 2 construction rather than differences.

Hmmmm again I agree on most of it. And I don't think EU strictly follows democratic principals and such (even if parlament memebrs are based upon elections, it's the comission that has the power and is cut off citizen influence... the elistism aspect wasalways present, as you pointed out) and has similar points with URSS.

I think we just disagree on the idea behind it's construction. I don't think the basis behind the EU was a marxist approach, even if the result ended up with something similar to URSS, which did try to put it in practice.

Written by [user id=130727] on 27.10.2012 at 11:29

Ok OL has got such friendly members, their music is interesting kinda, they got good performance in live shows, they really have nice point of view making ppl friend through music, but please asking their fans to vote for them to get Noble Prize? Nah!

I agree, it's not really something you ASK to receive. I mean you don't say "Yeah we spread the peace, can we have our award now?" Surely having their own fans viewing them as bringing people together and breaking down barriers is reward enough in itself..

Bitch, please

Written by TheMAGAmvm on 26.10.2012 at 18:37

You know, in stead of the European Union or figures like Kissinger, I would definitely opt for Orphaned Land. Any day, any where.

+ 1
And all the similar posts after the first one. They have actually done something, some every day thing, to help promote cultures and make people think of other people as people and friends, and not as members of other nation / religion.
They deserve it way more then any Obama, Ahtisaari, Kissinger, EU, or any other politician...

Wait... what?

Written by UnknownCheese on 26.10.2012 at 22:56


I'd say it's the million plus American dollars that comes with the prize.

Yeah, they certainly weren't promoting THIS PART in their request, were they?

This is really outrageous, even for them.

If they think that gracing the cover of a magazine and touring a lot is really helping anything, then I hope they continue to do so. If they need a giant sum of money and a public pat on the back then they're doing it for all the wrong reasons in the first place.

Written by TheMAGAmvm on 26.10.2012 at 22:13

Written by gid on 26.10.2012 at 22:00

You guys do know that the Nobel Peace Prize is often awarded to encourage the person/organization to pursue peace, right? That's why it was awarded to the EU and to Obama before that: not to recognize them for what they had already done, but to act as an incentive.

Let's not let the facts get in the way of a good moan though. Carry on.

Your reasoning is shallow. You cannot give a Nobel prize, lets say for medicine, to someone that has not even contributed with anything until now, and you just give it to him as a motivation, that is not what means to get a reward, because this is what the Nobel prize is, like any other prizes, a reward.

I'm not going to argue with you. The Nobel Peace Prize stands aside from the other Nobel prizes because it is often awarded to encourage future achievements. Every year there's controversy about who has been nominated, and every year the Nobel Institute say that the award is meant to act as an incentive as well as a retrospective award.

Written by gid on 27.10.2012 at 19:47

Written by TheMAGAmvm on 26.10.2012 at 22:13

Written by gid on 26.10.2012 at 22:00

You guys do know that the Nobel Peace Prize is often awarded to encourage the person/organization to pursue peace, right? That's why it was awarded to the EU and to Obama before that: not to recognize them for what they had already done, but to act as an incentive.

Let's not let the facts get in the way of a good moan though. Carry on.

Your reasoning is shallow. You cannot give a Nobel prize, lets say for medicine, to someone that has not even contributed with anything until now, and you just give it to him as a motivation, that is not what means to get a reward, because this is what the Nobel prize is, like any other prizes, a reward.

I'm not going to argue with you. The Nobel Peace Prize stands aside from the other Nobel prizes because it is often awarded to encourage future achievements. Every year there's controversy about who has been nominated, and every year the Nobel Institute say that the award is meant to act as an incentive as well as a retrospective award.

Excuse me, but what did Kissinger do since he won it? He claimed that he finally became a pacifist, and not because he wanted, it is because of age, getting old makes you dull and you see the world in a different perspective. Of couse, after bombarding ruthlessly a country and killing without discrimination, you've really seen them all.

The EU has nothing to do with it either, since several european countries keep fishing in african waters causing food industries in several african countries to collapse (Cote d'Ivoire, Senegal, etc.) and guess what? The EU is the first when it comes to humanitary help, so you provoke a famine, then you pay in order to reduce colateral damage, a good way to waste the money of people that are still producing something.

How about Obama? Other than the fact that he did not wage war like his predecessor, what did he do in order to "promote" peace? Absolutely nothing, the only reason why he did not start a war against Syria or Iran until now is because the elections were getting close. In my country we have a saying "From 2 bad thing, pick the smallest" and I fear that between Obama and Romney, Obama is the smallest, this is how pollitics function nowadays. Serving the people in speeches, serving corporate interests behind closed doors. Considering the fact that the Republicans are backed by the jewish lobby, the army and the military industry, in the next couple of years I expect a war, at least.

Standing aside, I've met a lot of people that really promoted peace, I know people that have fought for human rights their entire life, even Orphaned Land made music in order to do such a thing, which I find it more honorable than bombarding a country, causing a famine because of greed or being a hypocrite. You know, this is not a Nobel Prize for Peace anymore, rather for Hypocrisy (and no, not the band).

Great thread of posts related to this subject. I WILL NOT vote for OL, simply because their music doesn't meet the criteria or standard that would be associated with stimulating any type of peace movement . It seems like they're just following up due to this award train that they've been riding, so I won't criticize.

I am by profession a foreign affairs expert and the amount of misinformation about politics you are piling up here is tremendous.
About this Nobel Prize thingie--while I'm not saying that Kissinger or Obama deserved it (or the EU for that fact, though they've done much more for regional peace than the other two), the glorious music of Orphaned Land affects too few to get nominated to such an influential prize. Don't compare them with Obama or Kissinger. By your reasoning ("they did not deserve it") OL should only get it because you think they deserve it more? No. Compare OL with those great individuals who really did a lot for international peace and you will realize that this whole petition is a bit overrated.

Written by mastero87 on 28.10.2012 at 17:00

I am by profession a foreign affairs expert and the amount of misinformation about politics you are piling up here is tremendous.
About this Nobel Prize thingie--while I'm not saying that Kissinger or Obama deserved it (or the EU for that fact, though they've done much more for regional peace than the other two), the glorious music of Orphaned Land affects too few to get nominated to such an influential prize. Don't compare them with Obama or Kissinger. By your reasoning ("they did not deserve it") OL should only get it because you think they deserve it more? No. Compare OL with those great individuals who really did a lot for international peace and you will realize that this whole petition is a bit overrated.

Funny, where was the EU when civil war broke in Yugoslavia? Since you said stuff about regional peace, or Europe is for you EU and not the non-members? Where was the EU when war almost broke between Roumania and Ukraine back in 2006? I think that you're the one misinformed here. I don't know what foreign affairs you have been studying, or if you live in Europe, but dude, you've been really living a sheltered life. Unfortunately, I am confronted with political corectness everyday, to still think that I am living an illusion is just insane. Not to mention that back in 2009 I had problems with authorities because in my speech was euro-skeptic, but guess what, those that were against me and said I am wrong, after the event from July-August 2012 in Roumania they came to me to apologise, even though 3 other events took place earlier.

I am not going to argue with you though. The marxist ideology in the EU construction is pretty obvious, you do not need to be a foreign affairs expert to realize it, you just need to follow EU's movements and also what declarations the top people like Barosso (if you look back in his old days, this guy promoted maoist values in his country of origin), Schultz, Reding and other pseudo-democrats say. Even today, the Central European Bank CEO made a pretty insightful declaration, which unfortunately for you, only assures me that my theory is right. We have until now 4 episodes where we see the soviet construction underneath the EU, Greece, Roumania, Italy and Spain, do you need more? Well, in the near future we might see some more, don't worry.

I stated my opinion like this "Instead of Kissinger, Obama or the EU, I would give the Nobel prize for peace to Orphaned Land any day". May the best win, unfortunately, lately only warmongers and oppressive organizations end up winning it, since when did people confuse warmongers with peacemakers this is beyond my understanding, I consider it a huge error in the moral value department. Does the title "Peace Sells...But Who's Buying?" tell you something?

This is proof that the Nobel Peace Prize means absolutely nothing.

Written by R'Vannith on 27.10.2012 at 16:21

Surely having their own fans viewing them as bringing people together and breaking down barriers is reward enough in itself..

This, this, this. I think they've lost a little credibility with me after reading this. :/

Written by TheMAGAmvm on 28.10.2012 at 21:12

Written by mastero87 on 28.10.2012 at 17:00

I am by profession a foreign affairs expert and the amount of misinformation about politics you are piling up here is tremendous.
About this Nobel Prize thingie--while I'm not saying that Kissinger or Obama deserved it (or the EU for that fact, though they've done much more for regional peace than the other two), the glorious music of Orphaned Land affects too few to get nominated to such an influential prize. Don't compare them with Obama or Kissinger. By your reasoning ("they did not deserve it") OL should only get it because you think they deserve it more? No. Compare OL with those great individuals who really did a lot for international peace and you will realize that this whole petition is a bit overrated.

Funny, where was the EU when civil war broke in Yugoslavia? Since you said stuff about regional peace, or Europe is for you EU and not the non-members? Where was the EU when war almost broke between Roumania and Ukraine back in 2006? I think that you're the one misinformed here. I don't know what foreign affairs you have been studying, or if you live in Europe, but dude, you've been really living a sheltered life. Unfortunately, I am confronted with political corectness everyday, to still think that I am living an illusion is just insane. Not to mention that back in 2009 I had problems with authorities because in my speech was euro-skeptic, but guess what, those that were against me and said I am wrong, after the event from July-August 2012 in Roumania they came to me to apologise, even though 3 other events took place earlier.

I am not going to argue with you though. The marxist ideology in the EU construction is pretty obvious, you do not need to be a foreign affairs expert to realize it, you just need to follow EU's movements and also what declarations the top people like Barosso (if you look back in his old days, this guy promoted maoist values in his country of origin), Schultz, Reding and other pseudo-democrats say. Even today, the Central European Bank CEO made a pretty insightful declaration, which unfortunately for you, only assures me that my theory is right. We have until now 4 episodes where we see the soviet construction underneath the EU, Greece, Roumania, Italy and Spain, do you need more? Well, in the near future we might see some more, don't worry.

I stated my opinion like this "Instead of Kissinger, Obama or the EU, I would give the Nobel prize for peace to Orphaned Land any day". May the best win, unfortunately, lately only warmongers and oppressive organizations end up winning it, since when did people confuse warmongers with peacemakers this is beyond my understanding, I consider it a huge error in the moral value department. Does the title "Peace Sells...But Who's Buying?" tell you something?

I did not say that the EU deserved it for that fact. I said they deserved it more than Obama or Kissinger as they really helped in a lot of cases (also by its mere existence a Franco-German conflict would be impossible) and they did not in a lot of other ones, e.g. the conflict in Yugoslavia, which was indeed a disgrace for EU external politics. I said OL would not deserve it by comparison to many others who really did not get the Nobel Peace Prize for nothing (like Liu Xiaobo, Muhammad Yunus).

I don't know how have you acquired any knowledge on my expertise on my own profession, which I am in fact very good at. I didn't even say anything factual to be addressed as misinformed (nor did I mention anything on your comment on the EU having a Marxist ideology). I only mentioned that I would give it to OL rather than Obama or Kissinger but with comparison to lots of other I would not. So just stop indulging into personalities.