After album "Master of Puppets" is that a best album from Metallica, that the when issued.

This album is very memorable for me.

Empty is the first word that comes to my mind when And Justice is brought up or put on.

Written by wormdrink414 on 05.07.2010 at 11:45

Empty is the first word that comes to my mind when And Justice is brought up or put on.

Decent album here , but WTF kind of heavy metal band would deliberately mix down the bass guitar to almost ZILCH? Sounded pretty odd even back then to my young ears. I'd like to see a proper re-mastering of this record, where you can actually HEAR THE NEW BASSIST!!!!
Anyhow I actually really like the songwriting on "Justice"......

A truly great album, Last of Metallica as far as im concerned. But i agree with cjguitar40 i too wish the bass were louder, i bet it would be a great experience to hear it that way.

Written by Irritable Ted on 13.08.2010 at 10:40
An album absolutely crying out to be remixed/remastered. Put the bass back in. Did they leave it out as a tribute to Cliff or what?

Agreed. It is in terrible need of remixing. The three surviving members were well known for giving Jason a very hard time in the initial years after Cliff's death. So its definitely possible that he was deliberately mixed out in a mean spirited way by James and Lars. Then again, the bass has never been very audible in Metallica albums, aside from the ones produced by Bob Rock. lol

IMO Justice is the last great album Metallica made. Only the bad production lets it down. Its also the first Metallica album I heard. xD

Remix? No, please. Metallica is one of the few old bands that don't need to remaster their early albums. If you ask me for:

- Blind Guardian, yes, until "Somewhere Far Beyond" including this.

- Megadeth, yes, until "Countdown To Extinction" including this. (By the way, the Megadeth remasters are outstanding)

- Sepultura, yes, until "Arise" including this (here the same, the remasters are exceptional).

- Testament, yes, until "Low" without including this (here there isn't remasters).

Anyway, the sound of a particular album, is a matter of tastes, don't forget.

Written by Vikcen on 14.08.2010 at 05:48


- Blind Guardian, yes, until "Somewhere Far Beyond" including this.

I disagree. The sound in the old recordings is better than on the remasters because they removed too much of the echo when they remastered the albums.

Imo, it's the opposite that should be made for metal in general. The old albums don't need to get more polished production. It's the new albums that need to sound more like older metal. Modern productions make metal sound empty and dull. Just compare the new Slayer album to their old albums (until "Hell Awaits") for an eloquent example.
The songs themselves are not bad but the production completely destroys the album.

@Vikcen: I think the Megadeth remasters were in general, awful. Especially the ones for "Peace Sells..." and "Rust In Peace". My general rule is, if it isn't broke, dont try and fix it. And those albums were great as is. Even SFSGSW, which had an original production that was quite poor, was robbed of a bit of it's charm in the remaster. The only Testament albums Id say need remixing are "Souls Of Black" and "The New Order". Especially the former. BG and Sepultura: Definitely not.

@Hidden_Dictator: Removing the echo, is one of the things I hate most in remastered versions of albums. The Megadeth remasters are a very good (or a horrendous one lol) example of this. Most of the songs with echoy endings were suddenly made to come to a complete stop on the last note. Also, the guitar sound becomes very dry, robbing certain songs of a lot of their charm. It gives the songs a very artificial sound, and I don't like it.

There are rare ocassions like with AJFA, were I think the album really needs remixing, but generally speaking, I dont really like the idea of remixing/remastering an album. It kills the album's personality, more often than not.

Written by Angelic Storm on 14.08.2010 at 07:56

@Hidden_Dictator: Removing the echo, is one of the things I hate most in remastered versions of albums. The Megadeth remasters are a very good (or a horrendous one lol) example of this. Most of the songs with echoy endings were suddenly made to come to a complete stop on the last note. Also, the guitar sound becomes very dry, robbing certain songs of a lot of their charm. It gives the songs a very artificial sound, and I don't like it.

There are rare ocassions like with AJFA, were I think the album really needs remixing, but generally speaking, I dont really like the idea of remixing/remastering an album. It kills the album's personality, more often than not.

Totally agreed. Removing the echo makes albums sound lifeless and artificial, imo. We so often have to deal with lack of reverberation on new albums, at least leave the old albums as they are, for Christ's sake.

For me, an album is a piece of art and fine as it is. I see changing the sound as desecration of the original. If it isn't broken, don't fix it.

Remixing/remastering never add, it only removes, Which is a pity.

Written by RavenKing on 14.08.2010 at 08:43
Totally agreed. Removing the echo makes albums sound lifeless and artificial, imo. We so often have to deal with lack of reverberation on new albums, at least leave the old albums as they are, for Christ's sake.

For me, an album is a piece of art and fine as it is. I see changing the sound as desecration of the original. If it isn't broken, don't fix it.

Remixing/remastering never add, it only removes, Which is a pity.

Yep, lack of reverberation is a major problem with a lot of modern production. You mentioned Slayer's latest, which is a very good example. That album would sound so much better without the dry/compressed production. A lot of the songs are actually good, but they are stifled by the production, which is a shame. Remastering for its own sake, is a desecration of the original. Aside from isolated cases where an album actually needs remixing/remastering, its almost always a bad move.

That's a very good point. The whole point of remixing/remastering, is to add to the sound. The problem is, lots of albums are being remastered that dont need to be. And even some of the one's that do, remove too much. I mentioned SFSGSW earlier. The original of that didnt have very good production, but in a way that helped it, because it had a very eerie atmosphere. Now, if that album had been remixed properly, the sound would have been improved, but with that eerie charm left intact. But, due to the removal of the echo, the one great thing about that album's sound was stripped away. It is a real shame that even in some cases where remastering could help, its done in a very lazy, unprofessional way.

Of all Metallica albums i think this is the one that grew on me the most over the years. the songs might be very long and drawn-out in some cases, but i lov'em, especially the title track.

i always think of the bullshit corruption and nepotism in Romania and feel like beating those people up with a baseball bat while that track is playing.

"i can't believe the things we say... i can't believe, i can't believe the price.. we pay!"

Written by Irritable Ted on 14.08.2010 at 12:32
The first one that I heard was the black album. It is still my favourite even though most Metallica fans would disagree. The production was better, James' singing was better and it had some really good tracks. They haven't done anything since that I have liked nearly as much.

...AJFA needs beefing up, it could have been a really powerful album, but it has just been left sounding scratchy and thin, a step down from the brilliant Master Of Puppets where you can hear the bass. I don't think the style of MOP is too far removed from the black album, the songs are quite similar and the guitars sound better.

I would disagree, but I do like the black album still. It has some really great songs on it. xD

"Beefing up" is the perfect term for what AJFA needs. The sound is very dry, and there's no 'oomph' to it. Having the bass clearly audible in the mix, black album style, would improve the album's sound a lot. Although its production isnt very good, the songs are still able to shine through it.

Written by Angelic Storm on 14.08.2010 at 14:59
I would disagree, but I do like the black album still. It has some really great songs on it. xD

"Beefing up" is the perfect term for what AJFA needs. The sound is very dry, and there's no 'oomph' to it. Having the bass clearly audible in the mix, black album style, would improve the album's sound a lot. Although its production isnt very good, the songs are still able to shine through it.

YouTube has bass enhanced versions which basically do nothing but make the bass the lead guitar, but it's still good to get an idea of what the bass lines are.

Also, The Black Album having better production... I don't really know, maybe slightly more-so, but it's bad compared to RtL or MoP.

Best and only good Metallica album. BLack album, Master of Puppets, and Ride the Lightning all such shit. While they don't eat as much shit as St. Anger or Death magnetic they are still nothing in comparison to the shear magnitude that Justice for all has.

Always happens in these type of debates, as always i say: The sound of a particular album is a matter of tastes.

Written by Angelic Storm on 14.08.2010 at 07:56

@Vikcen: I think the Megadeth remasters were in general, awful. Especially the ones for "Peace Sells..." and "Rust In Peace". My general rule is, if it isn't broke, dont try and fix it. And those albums were great as is. Even SFSGSW, which had an original production that was quite poor, was robbed of a bit of it's charm in the remaster. The only Testament albums Id say need remixing are "Souls Of Black" and "The New Order". Especially the former. BG and Sepultura: Definitely not.

To begin, the sound of "And Justice For All" is better than "Rust In Peace" (not remastered) or any early album without remastering from Blind Guardian, Slayer, Sepultura or Testament. I don't like the album "Rust In Peace" without remastering, and neither"Countdown To Extinction" without remastering, both albums remastered gains a lot more. The same with Sepultura, i don't like "Beneath The Remains" and "Arise", but remastered yes, a lot more.

I agree with "Souls Of Black" and "The New Order" =). With Blind Guardian is another story, i have not entirely clear, the remasters i think that does not change much, i like both versions, maybe with Blind Guaridan i agre with you, don't need remaster.

Written by Angelic Storm on 14.08.2010 at 07:56


@Hidden_Dictator: Removing the echo, is one of the things I hate most in remastered versions of albums. The Megadeth remasters are a very good (or a horrendous one lol) example of this. Most of the songs with echoy endings were suddenly made to come to a complete stop on the last note. Also, the guitar sound becomes very dry, robbing certain songs of a lot of their charm. It gives the songs a very artificial sound, and I don't like it.

There are rare ocassions like with AJFA, were I think the album really needs remixing, but generally speaking, I dont really like the idea of remixing/remastering an album. It kills the album's personality, more often than not.

Charm, echo, dry, artificial... etc all this is a matter of tastes. Then for you, in your case, you can feel that they doesn't need remaster.

Then for you "And Justice for all" is a rare ocassion that needs remastering? and the albums cited not lol. Sorry, but i can't be agree with you. AJFA have better sound than the albums cited for example (without remastering of course ) as i have said before.

Written by Angelic Storm on 14.08.2010 at 07:56


but generally speaking, I dont really like the idea of remixing/remastering an album. It kills the album's personality, more often than not.

The same i could say about "And Justice For All".

Written by RavenKing on 14.08.2010 at 07:14


Imo, it's the opposite that should be made for metal in general. The old albums don't need to get more polished production. It's the new albums that need to sound more like older metal. Modern productions make metal sound empty and dull. Just compare the new Slayer album to their old albums (until "Hell Awaits") for an eloquent example.
The songs themselves are not bad but the production completely destroys the album.

Imo, I think the same about this, a matter of tastes. You feel that the old albums don't need to be changed, for you it's ok, for you are fine as they are. I prefer the sound of the new Slayer albums than the old, what's more, for me the best Slayer albums are the last two (Dave Lombardo, was the only one missing). In general i think i prefer modern sound in the Tharsh Metal, but no always, depends.




Ending, in conclusion, it is a matter of tastes, but when someone stars to question an album like "And Justice For All" for their sound, i have to debate .

@Vikcen: I totally respect your point of view on the matter. I just don't share it. I must say that as an old metalhead who's been listening to metal for over 25 years, I've been used to unpolished sound in the 80s and I really struggle with new albums nowadays because I find them overpolished in general.
For me, it's simply unthinkable that I could prefer the production on new Slayer to how it sounded on old albums.

Written by Vikcen on 15.08.2010 at 02:29
To begin, the sound of "And Justice For All" is better than "Rust In Peace" (not remastered) or any early album without remastering from Blind Guardian, Slayer, Sepultura or Testament. I don't like the album "Rust In Peace" without remastering, and neither"Countdown To Extinction" without remastering, both albums remastered gains a lot more. The same with Sepultura, i don't like "Beneath The Remains" and "Arise", but remastered yes, a lot more.

I agree with "Souls Of Black" and "The New Order" =). With Blind Guardian is another story, i have not entirely clear, the remasters i think that does not change much, i like both versions, maybe with Blind Guaridan i agre with you, don't need remaster.

I do not think that AJFA has better sound than the un-remastered RIP. It may be slightly clearer, but it has a very dry sound particularly on the drums, and due to the bass being mixed out, sounds a bit flat. The un-remastered RIP's production is warm, the drums sound powerful, and the bass is perfectly mixed within the album. I prefer all of the Megadeth albums in their un-remastered forms. Although Ive always had a love/hate relationship with SFSGSW's original mix, I still prefer it over the remaster because the eerie quality that the original had was lost in the remaster. That album needed remastering, but it was sadly done in a way that enhanced nothing other than making it a little more clear and louder, and removing it's greatest asset. "Killing Is My Business..." is another good example. The original production wasnt amazing, but it had a sound which I found, and still do to an extent, find quite unsettling. "The Skull Beneath The Skin" in particular has a very creepy sound, and the reverberating, echoy ending especially. When I heard the remaster, and found this had been removed, I was very disappointed. And now only listen to the original version. KIMB is actually rare in the Megadeth remasters in that it does actually enhance the sound to an extent. But again, stripping away it's creepy quality robs it of it's best asset.

I actually dont think Ive ever heard the Sepultura remasters, but seeing as I love BTR and "Arise" in their original forms, I dont see any great need to seek them out. xD

Although I really like the songs on "Souls Of Black", I really loath the production, it's horrid! lol It really needs remixing/remastering. And so does "The New Order".

Quote:
Charm, echo, dry, artificial... etc all this is a matter of tastes. Then for you, in your case, you can feel that they doesn't need remaster.

Then for you "And Justice for all" is a rare ocassion that needs remastering? and the albums cited not lol. Sorry, but i can't be agree with you. AJFA have better sound than the albums cited for example (without remastering of course ) as i have said before.

That is correct. It is just a matter of taste. I dont agree that AJFA has better sound than the un-remastered albums I mentioned, for reasons Ive just described. And yes I do think it needs remixed. The bass especially, badly needs to be re-instated on the album. I know some people dont think bass is very important, but for me, it is crucial in adding to, and enhancing an album's sound.

Quote:
The same i could say about "And Justice For All".

Seeing as Im not a fan of AJFA's current mix, I dont agree.

Quote:
Ending, in conclusion, it is a matter of tastes, but when someone stars to question an album like "And Justice For All" for their sound, i have to debate .

Well, Ive never liked AJFA's original production, and this is coming from someone who loves that album! If there are people that like it, then that's great. Its just always left me feeling a bit cold, and that something is missing. Even the band themselves, have stated dissatisfaction with it's production. lol The one thing I will say though, if it ever is remixed/remastered the echo must be kept, otherwise it will sound worse than it currently does.

hehee I dont mind debate, I enjoy it in fact.

Written by RavenKing on 15.08.2010 at 03:05

@Vikcen: I totally respect your point of view on the matter. I just don't share it. I must say that as an old metalhead who's been listening to metal for over 25 years, I've been used to unpolished sound in the 80s and I really struggle with new albums nowadays because I find them overpolished in general.
For me, it's simply unthinkable that I could prefer the production on new Slayer to how it sounded on old albums.

I understand you. It is totally respectable. In my case, not always is the same, i love the sound of old albums, i love old albums too, but not all hehe... At the same time, some new stuff in this decade, i find it artificial and synthetic, but not all. For example, about Slayer, i like very much "Reign in Blood" and "Seasons in the Abyss" too, or the early stuff of Metallica is another example for me, i like Testament too, Pantera, Iron Maiden, etc, etc. But the sound evolves with the new technology, and neither you can shut down on one thing, although one is getting older

The sound of a particular album (or how it sounds) is very personal for a person.

Written by Angelic Storm on 15.08.2010 at 05:06


I do not think that AJFA has better sound than the un-remastered RIP. It may be slightly clearer, but it has a very dry sound particularly on the drums, and due to the bass being mixed out, sounds a bit flat. The un-remastered RIP's production is warm, the drums sound powerful, and the bass is perfectly mixed within the album. I prefer all of the Megadeth albums in their un-remastered forms.

Precisely i found "And Justice For All" very powerful (even the drums ) in their sound, try to syntonize with high bass (i do it this way), maybe your opinion can change. And, that the bass not be heard, doesn't mean that the sound of a particular album is bad.

Written by Angelic Storm on 15.08.2010 at 05:06


I actually dont think Ive ever heard the Sepultura remasters, but seeing as I love BTR and "Arise" in their original forms, I dont see any great need to seek them out. xD

Although I really like the songs on "Souls Of Black", I really loath the production, it's horrid! lol It really needs remixing/remastering. And so does "The New Order".

About Sepultura, I recommend strongly the remasters, you can try more listenings, in earnest, it is exceptional =).

I feel the same with "The New Order", although i love it. And i think the same with the first "The Legacy".

Written by Angelic Storm on 15.08.2010 at 05:06


hehee I dont mind debate, I enjoy it in fact.

The same .

I don't know why they accepted this stupid bassist. the base can't be heard even in "blackended" that was written by jason.

I don't know why they accepted this stupid bassist. the base can't be heard even in "blackended" that was written by jason.

Written by mz on 20.12.2010 at 10:01

I don't know why they accepted this stupid bassist. the base can't be heard even in "blackended" that was written by jason.

Eh? It's not Jason's fault that the bass can't be heard on this album! It was the fault of the production, and it was James and Lars' decision to take out the bass in the final mix.

Blackened, One and Harvester of Sorrow are the only ones I find good on this.
Everything else is either dull or exceedingly long to the point of boredom.
Also, why does an album like this need 4 reviews? I know it's Metallica, but come on...

Written by [user id=101272] on 12.04.2011 at 02:23

Blackened, One and Harvester of Sorrow are the only ones I find good on this.
Everything else is either dull or exceedingly long to the point of boredom.
Also, why does an album like this need 4 reviews? I know it's Metallica, but come on...

What about such masterpieces "...And Justice For All", "To Live Is To Die" and "Dyers Eve"? =)

Written by Vikcen on 12.04.2011 at 07:53

Written by [user id=101272] on 12.04.2011 at 02:23

Blackened, One and Harvester of Sorrow are the only ones I find good on this.
Everything else is either dull or exceedingly long to the point of boredom.
Also, why does an album like this need 4 reviews? I know it's Metallica, but come on...

What about such masterpieces "...And Justice For All", "To Live Is To Die" and "Dyers Eve"? =)

More than ever, the term "masterpiece" is subjective here. This album is boring.

Written by Troy Killjoy on 12.04.2011 at 15:23

Written by Vikcen on 12.04.2011 at 07:53

Written by [user id=101272] on 12.04.2011 at 02:23

Blackened, One and Harvester of Sorrow are the only ones I find good on this.
Everything else is either dull or exceedingly long to the point of boredom.
Also, why does an album like this need 4 reviews? I know it's Metallica, but come on...

What about such masterpieces "...And Justice For All", "To Live Is To Die" and "Dyers Eve"? =)

More than ever, the term "masterpiece" is subjective here. This album is boring.

Always is subjective then?

Written by Troy Killjoy on 12.04.2011 at 15:23

Written by Vikcen on 12.04.2011 at 07:53

Written by [user id=101272] on 12.04.2011 at 02:23

Blackened, One and Harvester of Sorrow are the only ones I find good on this.
Everything else is either dull or exceedingly long to the point of boredom.
Also, why does an album like this need 4 reviews? I know it's Metallica, but come on...

What about such masterpieces "...And Justice For All", "To Live Is To Die" and "Dyers Eve"? =)

More than ever, the term "masterpiece" is subjective here. This album is boring.

Such statements are a waste Internet space. Seriously, you could say that about any album.

Written by K✞ulu on 13.04.2011 at 17:04

Such statements are a waste Internet space. Seriously, you could say that about any album.

They aren't a waste of space when the topic of conversation is about an album I happen to have an opinion on. If every opinionated comment was a waste of space these forums would be completely barren, with the exception of the Pub and various non-music-related threads.