Metallica sold out but did not fail considering that they sell millions of records (even St Anger sold 3 million from what I read).

Someone mentioned Voivod earlier; well I don't thonk they ever sold out, especially with Nothingface and Angel Rat which are both great records.

Megadeth is the most obvious answer to this one. Whilst it's hard to see 30+ million albums sold and getting a number 2 album in the US as a "failure", by Dave Mustaine's own ambitions it was a failure. As Megadeth didn't manage to match Metallica in terms of mainstream popularity, and record sales, which is why Dave made Megadeth more commercial in the first place. To try and do just that.

As for Morbid Angel, I don't think they "sold out", as I don't think the changes they made were in order to gain more popularity. I could be wrong, but that's how I personally see it. People need to remember that a band simply experimenting, or even gaining more popularity as a result of that experimentation, doesn't automatically mean they "sold out". There's a difference between actively seeking mainstream popularity, and just aqquiring it as a matter of course. But fans will decry any change in a band's sound that they don't like as "selling out", which is why I don't use the term much myself.

Written by Angelic Storm on 02.01.2012 at 01:30

As for Morbid Angel, I don't think they "sold out", as I don't think the changes they made were in order to gain more popularity. I could be wrong, but that's how I personally see it. People need to remember that a band simply experimenting, or even gaining more popularity as a result of that experimentation, doesn't automatically mean they "sold out". There's a difference between actively seeking mainstream popularity, and just aqquiring it as a matter of course. But fans will decry any change in a band's sound that they don't like as "selling out", which is why I don't use the term much myself.

I don't think Morbid Angel sold out with their last album. I only think they sucked.

Written by Angelic Storm on 02.01.2012 at 01:30
People need to remember that a band simply experimenting, or even gaining more popularity as a result of that experimentation, doesn't automatically mean they "sold out".

Well I'd ask the band members myself but I don't think they'd go out of their way to respond to an email asking if they were looking to achieve mainstream success with their new direction.

So I'm only left with my assumptions.

Written by RavenKing on 02.01.2012 at 01:51
I don't think Morbid Angel sold out with their last album. I only think they sucked.

The difference between those viewpoints, is one is stating a personal opinion, whereas the other is attempting to state a fact. An album sucking or not just comes down to individual viewpoints, whether a band has sold out or not is something that's either a fact, or it isn't. Personal opinion doesn't come into that. Therefore, I'll never use the term "sell out", unless the case in question is irrefutable, ala Dave Mustaine.

@Troy: Exactly. So attempting to state a fact based merely on assumption, isn't really the cleverest thing in the world to be doing. Yet most disgruntled fans do it when a band they like changes their sound and they disapprove of that change.

Gonna have to back Angelic on this one. As the musicians grow up and "mature" their interests in music and style changes as musicians and some bands want to do something else. In the case of bands like Metallica and Megadeth the whole band agrees to change and they do, in the case of a lot of black and death metal bands the musicians who want to do something different leave the band instead of trying to make the band change; hence the very common "so and so left the band due to creative differences" reason...

Written by psykometal on 02.01.2012 at 03:27

Gonna have to back Angelic on this one. As the musicians grow up and "mature" their interests in music and style changes as musicians and some bands want to do something else. In the case of bands like Metallica and Megadeth the whole band agrees to change and they do, in the case of a lot of black and death metal bands the musicians who want to do something different leave the band instead of trying to make the band change; hence the very common "so and so left the band due to creative differences" reason...

Fact is a traditional Heavy Metal or Powermetal band can easily change towards something more radio-friendly and has a reasonable chance to be successful at it.
For a Black or Death Metal band, it is much more tricky and can easily lead to the band's demise. Problem in this case is most fans will hate the new material and more 'mainstream' people will still see the band as Black or Death Metal and won't care for it.
So, they will loose lots of old fans and will not gain as many new ones.

Written by Angelic Storm on 02.01.2012 at 02:03
@Troy: Exactly. So attempting to state a fact based merely on assumption, isn't really the cleverest thing in the world to be doing. Yet most disgruntled fans do it when a band they like changes their sound and they disapprove of that change.

I'm posting on a forum... the only time my statements can be considered a fact is when I say it's a fact and provide evidence. Just like with anyone posting on here.

When someone says "power metal is gay", it's their opinion. It's not a fact. But it would be stupid if we all had to write "imo" every time just so others wouldn't think we're deluding ourselves by stating opinion as fact.

Written by Troy Killjoy on 02.01.2012 at 04:35

But it would be stupid if we all had to write "imo" every time just so others wouldn't think we're deluding ourselves by stating opinion as fact.

I do it anyway because there are too many (imo ) idjits out there who can't recognize this fact...

Written by RavenKing on 02.01.2012 at 03:34

Fact is a traditional Heavy Metal or Powermetal band can easily change towards something more radio-friendly and has a reasonable chance to be successful at it.
For a Black or Death Metal band, it is much more tricky and can easily lead to the band's demise. Problem in this case is most fans will hate the new material and more 'mainstream' people will still see the band as Black or Death Metal and won't care for it.
So, they will loose lots of old fans and will not gain as many new ones.

Oh most assuredly. And that was my point exactly is that with a lot of the black and death metal bands instead of changing/"selling out" the members who want to change or be more mainstream will leave the band "due to creative differences" so that the band can retain their black or death metal style intact. And likewise in those genres members are also known to "leave for creative differences" because the band is getting too "mainstream" and they want to retain their "kvltness/br00tality".

Written by Troy Killjoy on 02.01.2012 at 04:35
I'm posting on a forum... the only time my statements can be considered a fact is when I say it's a fact and provide evidence. Just like with anyone posting on here.

When someone says "power metal is gay", it's their opinion. It's not a fact. But it would be stupid if we all had to write "imo" every time just so others wouldn't think we're deluding ourselves by stating opinion as fact.

Not so. Saying a band has "sold out" is making (or attempting to make) a factual statement regardless of if you use the exact word "fact" in your statement or not. A band either made a deliberate, calculated move to alter their music purely to gain a lot of money/mainstream popularity, or it didn't. There's no grey areas there. It's very different to posting opinions about bands/albums, as stating a band has "sold out" requires evidence to prove such, otherwise others have the right to question and deride that statement. This is not the case when stating whether or not you like a band or album, as that is just a personal opinion, and so requires no evidence to be presented. And nobody has the right to deride that opinion either.

It would be, but seeing as there's a lot of stupid people around, who do believe presenting an opinion is presenting a fact, I prefer to shut them up in advance.

Written by Angelic Storm on 02.01.2012 at 06:04
Not so. Saying a band has "sold out" is making (or attempting to make) a factual statement regardless of if you use the exact word "fact" in your statement or not.

"In my opinion Darkthrone sold out when they decided to become a crust punk band."

Did they really sell out? Only they know. That's where the "imo" comes into play. I'm not trying to state a fact that Darkthrone sold out; I'm saying I personally think they sold out. The only way any of us can state a fact about a band selling out is if the band members admit to it.

That's just an example by the way... I don't believe they sold out.

Written by Angelic Storm on 02.01.2012 at 06:04

Not so. Saying a band has "sold out" is making (or attempting to make) a factual statement regardless of if you use the exact word "fact" in your statement or not. A band either made a deliberate, calculated move to alter their music purely to gain a lot of money/mainstream popularity, or it didn't. There's no grey areas there. It's very different to posting opinions about bands/albums, as stating a band has "sold out" requires evidence to prove such, otherwise others have the right to question and deride that statement. This is not the case when stating whether or not you like a band or album, as that is just a personal opinion, and so requires no evidence to be presented. And nobody has the right to deride that opinion either.

It would be, but seeing as there's a lot of stupid people around, who do believe presenting an opinion is presenting a fact, I prefer to shut them up in advance.

True. However, personally, and I don't know if it's a mistake, when a band obviously takes a softer, more accessible for the mainstream direction, I tend to automatically see it as selling out to a certain extent.

Written by Troy Killjoy on 02.01.2012 at 06:08
"In my opinion Darkthrone sold out when they decided to become a crust punk band."

Did they really sell out? Only they know. That's where the "imo" comes into play. I'm not trying to state a fact that Darkthrone sold out; I'm saying I personally think they sold out. The only way any of us can state a fact about a band selling out is if the band members admit to it.

That's just an example by the way... I don't believe they sold out.

I see your point of course, but it's still different to stating whether or not you like a band/album or not. The main reason being that saying a band "sold out" with no evidence, means that others can legitimately deride that opinion if they wish. Seeing as no evidence is required to form an opinion of an albums' quality (or lack of it), then you have a right to express that opinion without others' calling it into question and/or deriding it. Both are only opinions, but one can be legitimately challenged (if there's no evidence), whilst the other one can't be.

And yes, you are right, which is why you can state Dave Mustaine sold out, and put anyone in their place who tried to deride that statement. He admitted to writing Megadeth music a certain way in the 90's purely to get a number one album, so it's beyond doubt that he sold out. Of course some Megadeth fanboys like to remain oblivious to that fact, but there you go!

Well, I wouldn't know... I didn't even know they had become crust punk, as I've only heard their black metal stuff.

Written by Angelic Storm on 02.01.2012 at 06:21

Well, I wouldn't know... I didn't even know they had become crust punk, as I've only heard their black metal stuff.

In my opinion, you don't miss anything by not hearing Darkthrone's crust punk stuff.
You can check it if you want but I don't think you will like it very much.

Written by RavenKing on 02.01.2012 at 07:16

Written by Angelic Storm on 02.01.2012 at 06:21

Well, I wouldn't know... I didn't even know they had become crust punk, as I've only heard their black metal stuff.

In my opinion, you don't miss anything by not hearing Darkthrone's crust punk stuff.
You can check it if you want but I don't think you will like it very much.

I still think they are good.

Written by RavenKing on 02.01.2012 at 07:16
In my opinion, you don't miss anything by not hearing Darkthrone's crust punk stuff.
You can check it if you want but I don't think you will like it very much.

I'm not even entirely sure what crust punk is, but you're right, it probably isn't my thing.

Interestingly enough, "A Blaze in The Northern Sky" was the first ever black metal album I heard... it's kinda hard to imagine the band who made that doing anything in a punk style.

Written by Angelic Storm on 02.01.2012 at 12:40

Written by RavenKing on 02.01.2012 at 07:16
In my opinion, you don't miss anything by not hearing Darkthrone's crust punk stuff.
You can check it if you want but I don't think you will like it very much.

I'm not even entirely sure what crust punk is, but you're right, it probably isn't my thing.

Interestingly enough, "A Blaze in The Northern Sky" was the first ever black metal album I heard... it's kinda hard to imagine the band who made that doing anything in a punk style.

The Peaceville trilogy (Darkthrone's BM era) is quite different from their crust punk era.

Written by [user id=111172] on 02.01.2012 at 18:26

Kelly Osbourne failed

Reality TV saved her.

Written by VPeter on 31.12.2011 at 15:02

Satyricon's "Now, Diabolical" and "The Age of Zero" had Saytricon's recent Black N Roll brand style they had since "Volcano" but only highly commercialised and so far the massive success Satyr has hoped for hasn't come yet.

Gives me hope people can still recognize crap, regardless of whether it has a big name on the cover or not.

Written by Slayer666 on 02.01.2012 at 19:46

Written by VPeter on 31.12.2011 at 15:02

Satyricon's "Now, Diabolical" and "The Age of Zero" had Saytricon's recent Black N Roll brand style they had since "Volcano" but only highly commercialised and so far the massive success Satyr has hoped for hasn't come yet.

Gives me hope people can still recognize crap, regardless of whether it has a big name on the cover or not.

I don't know if it's successful or not but it does suck.

Written by RavenKing on 02.01.2012 at 18:25
The Peaceville trilogy (Darkthrone's BM era) is quite different from their crust punk era.

The first time I heard Darkthrone was on a Peaceville sampler that also contained songs by Anathema, Pentagram, and other bands,

I can imagine that it is quite different, and I can also imagine a lot of fans being disappointed with the change to crust punk, regardless of whether the change was selling out or not...

Written by NLthrasher on 30.12.2011 at 17:34

Written by Valentin B on 30.12.2011 at 16:09

Grave Digger released a glam rock or something album in 1987 under the name "Digger" which imo is absolutely ridiculous it didn't work out for them, so they reverted to their old style (thank Satam for that as their late 90s/early 200s albums are godly).

I know that band and album but I didn't know it was to reach out to more people and get more mainstream popularity, I thought it was just a different side project to let loose the remaining creativity that they couldn't express in Grave Digger.

it was the exact same line-up with a more commercial name (imo a more ridiculous change than even Rhapsody to Rhapsody of Fire), but instead of songs called "Heavy Metal Breakdown", it's actually more "Don't Leave Me Lonely".. the infamous "Turbo" got released the year before.. I think it's pretty obvious what the band's intention was

In this category I would also add Manowar's album "Fighting the World" as an unofficial sell-out album. The songs are much more catchy and chorus-based than on their previous stuff, and almost as if to say "ok ok, we were joking, here's some more TRUE metal!" they released "Kings of Metal" just next year, which is really one of their best imo.... after which they (and by "they" I mean that asshole who shall not be named here) lost all their creativity as they'd go on to release a new album only every 4-5 years with little distinguishing them apart from sound quality.

Written by Angelic Storm on 02.01.2012 at 20:02
I can imagine that it is quite different, and I can also imagine a lot of fans being disappointed with the change to crust punk, regardless of whether the change was selling out or not...

I personally took the style change as... whatever the reverse of selling out is. If they wanted to make more money, they'd just rehash the sound from their classics. Or maybe they'd even elaborate on the old death metal sound they had prior to said classics.

But crust punk? That's about as black metal as a black metal band can get.

Written by vezzy on 02.01.2012 at 18:29
Reality TV saved her.

Reality TV molded her into a typical pop-teen princess. She used to be happy with being herself: didn't care about her weight, didn't care if she wasn't wearing the "in thing"... then the pressures of reality TV come down on her from all angles and you're left with this:


"LOL boys wanna fuck me now!"

Written by Angelic Storm on 02.01.2012 at 20:02

I can imagine that it is quite different, and I can also imagine a lot of fans being disappointed with the change to crust punk, regardless of whether the change was selling out or not...

If we equate "selling out" with "deliberately changing the band's sound to target a wider, more profitable audience", I wouldn't say they sold out.

I hate new Darkthrone with a passion, but I genuinely believe Fenriz and Nocturno are just doing what they want and don't give a fuck about how their music will be received, which is pretty much the polar opposite of "selling out".

The problem, however, is that they can't make punk to save their lives.

Written by Troy Killjoy on 02.01.2012 at 21:51

Kelly

Her smile reminds me of this

Written by Troy Killjoy on 02.01.2012 at 21:39
I personally took the style change as... whatever the reverse of selling out is. If they wanted to make more money, they'd just rehash the sound from their classics. Or maybe they'd even elaborate on the old death metal sound they had prior to said classics.

But crust punk? That's about as black metal as a black metal band can get.

But were they making a lot of money from the sound of their classics? I can't see that being the case... I do tend to find that the term "sell out" is used more when a band makes it's sound more melodic, and/or more simplistic than earlier material.

Written by Angelic Storm on 03.01.2012 at 09:27
But were they making a lot of money from the sound of their classics?

According to Gylve (in the Until the Light Takes Us black metal documentary) the Peaceville trilogy did really well, with the initial pressings selling out quicker than the band or the label expected. And I think (if memory serves) he mentions the cult status of some of those albums leading to high bidding wars on sites like eBay.

So if Darkthrone really wanted a quick cashgrab, they could just go out and write a new Transilvanian Hunger and they'd be set. This crust punk experiment is surely anything but guaranteed sales.

Written by Troy Killjoy on 03.01.2012 at 09:41
According to Gylve (in the Until the Light Takes Us black metal documentary) the Peaceville trilogy did really well, with the initial pressings selling out quicker than the band or the label expected. And I think (if memory serves) he mentions the cult status of some of those albums leading to high bidding wars on sites like eBay.

So if Darkthrone really wanted a quick cashgrab, they could just go out and write a new Transilvanian Hunger and they'd be set. This crust punk experiment is surely anything but guaranteed sales.

I never imagined that old-school style of black metal would be much of a money earner really... maybe compared to most other black metal bands the trilogy did well, but I doubt we're talking about big bucks here, or am I wrong? And do bands actually get any profit when one of their albums is sold on eBay?

Well, I definitely wouldn't argue that there's much money to be made in crust punk... it'd be like if Arch Enemy started playing grindcore.