Written by [user id=142921] on 28.07.2015 at 07:41

The roll and sidestep have the exact same amount of I-frames.

There doesn't seem to be much info on this oddly enough. From what I can tell the sidestep / back is quicker, and also gives you a different attack when done right out of a forward step. Either way I wouldn't mind seeing this implemented in future Souls games, based entirely on weight of course.

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Storm King is great. It's my avatar on this site ^.^ Rom and Micolash heavily remind me of Demon's Souls. They'd fit right in I think. I think Rom is my favourite boss in the game. She can also be the hardest for some if you don't know how to dodge her vertical glacial cascades.

Micolash sort of annoyed me, for one his dialogue got in the way of me picking up the items dotted about =P and he also spammed a call beyond spell and nearly killed me as it's almost impossible to dodge right. Rom was also my favourite though. Just a very memorable battle. I loved the design of Rom too. She looked so pathetic and helpless, yet by the end of the fight there were at least 50 spiders crawling toward me. That fight was a total hit and run job from the off. Never stop moving, don't bother with the baby spiders, just get in a hit and run out and around again. Did it with a blood vial to spare too.

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It's good but I skip most of the songs on it :/ Gerhman's theme and Hunt or be hunted(?) are the highlights for me there. Can't beat the Maiden Astraea theme though!

Well there's The Hunt, which is Gascoigne's. I assume you mean that one? That one, Cleric beast and Queen of the Vilebloods (loved the last 30 seconds or so) were the standouts for me I think.

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Ye I always preach environmental lunacy. For a map that big I expected more. Skellige delivered. Velen and White Orchard not so much. We can both agree that keeping the game linear like the first two would have been the better road to take. I hope MGSV doesn't suffer the same fate.

I have a feeling MGSV will be a few smaller sandboxes with more handcrafted layout so I reckon it should be ok.

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Going into a Witcher game for gameplay? You silly man! Gameplay is the last thing you play the Witcher series for haha. I hope you don't go to McDonalds looking for a sophisticated meal too. I have a real habit of loving extremely flawed PC games. Vampire The Masquerade and Stalker are are riddled with tech issues, Deus Ex is putrid to look at, Deadly Premonition has gameplay that looks like it just came out of steam greenlight and Witcher 1 and 3 have many small issues that just pile up.

Anyway I played Dark Souls at 60fps for a brief moment yesterday. It was so satisfying but for some reason my button layout would change whenever I landed a backstab on an enemy and when I plunged on the Asylum Demon. Then my game would black screen on startup and google temporarily fixed it but the problem has resurfaced and applying the same solution doesn't work anymore.... I've fiddled with it so much I'm over it and just hoping when windows 10 drops these issues will be fixed. PCs are fucking aids. Onto Dead Space in the meantime. Jump scare central that thing is.

Well, gameplay, and lots of adventure-y awesomeness and reward incentives; such as loot, new weapons and armour, cool locations and things to see, etc. Witcher's fairly vanilla medieval (I guess?) setting really isn't my thing either tbh so nothing really ignited my imagination. Witcher 2's locations felt a bit more unique and lively to me. So yeah, really the game was going off its story for me and not much else =P

I assume you're using the DSfix thing then? I've never had trouble with my button layout changing (are you using a 360 controller, if not that could be why) but I've had issues with the game not starting up with the 60fps function turned on. I'd also recommend downloading the texture pack too, it really improves the overall look of the game.

Written by Uldreth on 28.07.2015 at 13:18

I find PS:T suffers from crap combat less than other infinity engine RPGs, I guess maybe because you don't have to combat that much at all. I literally could not get through the intro area in BG2 without attempting to gouge my eyes out...

Also, welcome back oO.

At least in BG2 your characters don't get stuck on each other during battle -_-

I basically tanked my way through BG2, so you could try that. That's problem with the system, that melee builds are basically fire and forget, whereas magic builds often require ludicrous amount of management. It took a long time to figure out what spells are useful and what aren't, but when you've learned a few key ones you can get through off those alone. I barely bothered with attack spells, just a few buff and debuff ones.


And thanks ^^

Written by [user id=4365] on 28.07.2015 at 13:32


At least in BG2 your characters don't get stuck on each other during battle -_-

I basically tanked my way through BG2, so you could try that. That's problem with the system, that melee builds are basically fire and forget, whereas magic builds often require ludicrous amount of management. It took a long time to figure out what spells are useful and what aren't, but when you've learned a few key ones you can get through off those alone. I barely bothered with attack spells, just a few buff and debuff ones.


And thanks ^^

Might try playing some warrior-styled character but I am really put off by the fact that they basically have no active abilities. They did not even fix this in Pillars Of Eternity really...

Not to mention that often attributes that would make them good at diplomacy is detrimental to melees, and I tend to build my characters to be able to talk or coerce myself out of stuff.

Originally I was also incapable of playing Neverwinter Nights 2, but at least the OC gives me enough fighter companions early on that I can use THEM to tank and I just use ludicrous AoE spells for mass destruction, but NWN2 compensates by having unbearable camera settings.

Written by Uldreth on 28.07.2015 at 13:38


Might try playing some warrior-styled character but I am really put off by the fact that they basically have no active abilities. They did not even fix this in Pillars Of Eternity really...

Not to mention that often attributes that would make them good at diplomacy is detrimental to melees, and I tend to build my characters to be able to talk or coerce myself out of stuff.

Originally I was also incapable of playing Neverwinter Nights 2, but at least the OC gives me enough fighter companions early on that I can use THEM to tank and I just use ludicrous AoE spells for mass destruction, but NWN2 compensates by having unbearable camera settings.

I don't know if you know, or if you want to know regarding diplomacy stats as I suppose it's sort of a spoiler but...

It doesn't matter at all in BG2. Charisma is a total dump stat as it only affects shop prices, certain attitudes toward your character from your companions, and maybe 1 or 2 interactions within your party. You can safely play a main character with the lowest possible charisma and not lose out on anything. You can be a thicko brawler and I'm pretty sure you'll have all the same opportunities as a super clever mage. You can die though from one enemy that reduces your charisma permanently. If it goes below you die, though it's a pretty rare occurrence. There's also a weapon that randomly reduces it, which I ended up accidentally using without realising and had to permanently use a ring to compensate.

It sounds shallow but I don't think I could ever play a NWN game because of the archaic 3D visuals.

[edit]

Double checked and Wisdom and Intelligence also have next to no use for conversation options. Apparently 10 minimum is advised. It's like the polar opposite of Planescape.

Real time with pause works perfectly well for games where you control a single character. NWN and NWN2 are a piece of cake - though no doubt in part because I've played NWN online for 10 years now, and there's obviously no pause option. The radial menus and quickbars are pretty easy to get the hang of. The problem, IMO, only applies to party-based combat: either you have to pause it all the time to assign new orders to everyone, you try to control everyone real-time, or you let the AI take care of your companions. The problem with this is that option 1 makes it effectively a clumsy and irritating turn-based game, while options 2 and 3 mean that in order for them to work, the game difficulty must be too low - it's always inferior to properly planning your moves with pause, so when you do run into trouble you can just do that and it becomes easy mode. (Unless, I guess, you have enough self-control never to use pause.)

Also, if you're looking for a PnP experience, I really encourage you to try NWN online. There are still a bunch of privately owned persistent RP worlds around, with dedicated DM teams and playerbases ranging from a few hundred to a few dozen. As crazy as it sounds, there has been no comparable platform released for online D&D (or RP in general) on a persistent server since that game. That's 13 years! There is no real RP to be had in MMORPGs, and obviously no DM oversight or opportunity to affect the world. Shards Online is looking promising, though.

Written by [user id=142921] on 28.07.2015 at 15:11


Ye using DSfix which is integrated with the texture pack. Removes all the muddy textures and makes murals actually decipherable. My problems are just incredibly inconsistent. I mean, when I was on a Win7 OS I used ps3 controller with DSfix and w/o the texture pack and everything worked fine. I'm on Win8 now. Yesterday I had a black screen on startup then after fixing that a button layout change caused by a backstab. I could hear the *device has been recognized* sound as the layout changed. Today backstab worked fine but a plunge attack lead to the button change. Then I reinstalled the game and went through the same method to fix the blackscreen issue but it didn't work. I'm so confused on how my layout changes like that. How on earth does a cause b in this situation?!? Ps4 controller doesn't work at all, tried 2 ps3 controllers and 3 programs to recognise the controllers. Choices now are for Win10 to magically fix my issues or just play w/o the texture pack which i'm sorta fine with but ya know.....I didn't buy a gtx980 to play Mud Souls at 30fps...

Probably not the answer you want but you should really consider getting a 360 (or better still the Xbone) controller and the official dongle thing, as most games (aside from RTS etc.) tend to be pre-programmed to respond to it, Bark Moles included.. Cost you a bit of money but would save time and effort. The 360 controller is pretty good, aside from the d-pad.

Written by IronAngel on 28.07.2015 at 11:03


I do get why people love BG2 so much, though. For many, it was a revelation of what RPGs could be. It is a well-rounded package that has aged relatively well, with awesome fan content. (There's a mod that lets you play both the games and expansions in a single playthrough and even bring some companions from 1 to 2 - it's essential.) For me, the game that I see through rose-tinted glasses is Final Fantasy IX. It was the first RPG I got for myself, when it was released. Those areas, characters, that music, I'm still convinced it's in the top 5 most atmospheric RPGs ever.

it's rose tinted for me as it was the game-changer. i can see why people retro playing it the first time after immersion in other games would find issues. much like any other game i played. some age well - like, say, Star Wars: A New Hope. others have aged like the tv show The A-Team, where you watch now and wonder, "what was I thinking back then?"

... never finished IX. Or X. not sure why IX never really got me. I liked VII and enjoyed a lot of VIII, though a lot annoyed me about that one (including the shift to more "realistic" looking characters.) ... IX was a step back to a preferred style. maybe i finally got my PS2 and just that was the reason? just never pulled me in like II, III, or VII. shit, one of my Navy buddies and i when we meet up and go drinking still reference "Fire Claw" that the kung-fu bodybuilding broheim of the prince used.

X i just played more water polo than anything else. got really bored with the game. maybe logged 20 hours of "game play", outside of side games.

i think a good chunk is just getting a good new p and getting BG2 then DAOC that helped kill FF for me.

IX probably holds up the best of the PS1 trio, though I more or less covet them equally. IX's offbeat main character (a slightly pervy, offbeat and cheerful monkey-man) was a nice change and the overall art style was amazing, and generally had a very memorable cast of companions.

The pre-rendered backdrops would look fantastic in an HD remake: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=551612

I'd probably give that one a go. my lappy could easily handle it and i have a lot less competition for my time now than around it's time.

Written by [user id=142921] on 28.07.2015 at 07:41

Exclusives atm just The ORder 1886 and Bloodborne and The Last of Us if you don't have a ps3. I'ma be all over Ratchet and Clank. Game looks great. It just needs to stay true to the original and maintain good performance. I dunno if its gonna be at 60fps. I hope so.

Not at all interested in The Order 1886 and I can borrow The Last Of Us on PS3 from a friend any time I'd like. And all the remasters (God Of War III for example) don't interest me at all, since the only difference will be a graphics boost, but graphics are secondary in games for me. I already enjoyed the fuck out of GoW 3 and having it look pretty isn't gonna make me enjoy it any more.
I hope that R&C game is good though, god I love that series. Or most of it at least. Still haven't played the Nexus, but I heard it was pretty short, so I don't know if it's worth the money.

In light of the recent discussions I gave BG2 another shot, this time asa paladin. The interface, the combat, and the graphics still irritate the shit out of me, but this time I did not feel like stabbing myself in the butt over and over again... And the story/characters sucked me in well enough to make me invested. Damn it!

*Rides off into the distance*

Did you patch it, to include widescreen etc? I guess you're probably playing the Enhanced Edition which has most of that (and a host of its own problems apparently). I found quite a lot of the game to be pretty nice looking. For an isometric game (always found it far less appealing than the pre-rendered style of FF7 etc, which obviously wouldn't have worked for the combat).

I tried playing Icewind Dale for a bit (EE version) as it seemed a lot nicer looking than BG2. I stopped pretty quickly though when I learned how much combat there is. There's a non-combat option on it though, but the story is total guff apparently so didn't bother with it, as I would be playing it just to look at the backdrops.

To be honest I have no excitement for the new one coming out, Siege of Dragonspear. It looks awful. Why did they choose the exact same engine, with janky animations and all? That's nostalgia taken to silly levels. At least Pillars of Eternity looked modern whilst retaining the style.

---

Forgot to mention that I finally completed Xenoblade. My first try, way back when it was released, I got about 25 hours into and became put off by the ludicrous amount of battles you're drawn into. This time round I ended up cheating and giving myself a x3 exp modifier (yay for emulators). Even then, being able to skip 70%+ of the combat there was still too much of it; the clock was pushing 60 hours by the end. It's another game that wears its time to completion like a badge of honour, and would have taken well over 100 hours if I hadn't cheated. Problem is the combat is really, really dull. Like a vastly simplified version of FFXII's combat. It's a shame though as the story is surprisingly good for a JRPG in this day and age. It's no Xenogears but constantly engaging. The environments are pretty amazing too, in scope that is. They're still very lo-res because of the Wii but they still impress regardless.

From what I've read the new X sequel coming out is basically more of the same, but without the good story, so I don't feel so bad about not owning a Wii U now.

Written by [user id=4365] on 29.07.2015 at 23:50

*Rides off into the distance*

Did you patch it, to include widescreen etc? I guess you're probably playing the Enhanced Edition which has most of that (and a host of its own problems apparently). I found quite a lot of the game to be pretty nice looking. For an isometric game (always found it far less appealing than the pre-rendered style of FF7 etc, which obviously wouldn't have worked for the combat).

I tried playing Icewind Dale for a bit (EE version) as it seemed a lot nicer looking than BG2. I stopped pretty quickly though when I learned how much combat there is. There's a non-combat option on it though, but the story is total guff apparently so didn't bother with it, as I would be playing it just to look at the backdrops.

To be honest I have no excitement for the new one coming out, Siege of Dragonspear. It looks awful. Why did they choose the exact same engine, with janky animations and all? That's nostalgia taken to silly levels. At least Pillars of Eternity looked modern whilst retaining the style.

Nah, its the complete edition from gog, I doubt it is patched. Truth to be told, I am not sure if the widescreen patch for BG2 works better or not, but I remember it caused some issues for PS:T when I used it, so I didn't bother with it this time. Small screen size is annoying, but otherwise I doubt any graphical improvement would be significant. And yeah it is not *that* terrible graphic-wise, the combat irritates me far more. Seriously, Divinity: Original Sin's turn based system worked so well, I don't see the point behind this real-time with pause bullcrap.

Yeah I surprisingly dig the graphics *and* gameplay of Pillars, it does have issues, but I find it to be a really good nostalgia RPG. Which also means I should play it more, it is quite funny, when it came out I played it for a while, then decided to do with NWN2 what I did with BG2 now, and give it another chance (prior to that NWN2 was also barely playable to me), and that game sucked me in so much I never finished Pillars .

Written by Uldreth on 30.07.2015 at 00:23

Nah, its the complete edition from gog, I doubt it is patched. Truth to be told, I am not sure if the widescreen patch for BG2 works better or not, but I remember it caused some issues for PS:T when I used it, so I didn't bother with it this time. Small screen size is annoying, but otherwise I doubt any graphical improvement would be significant. And yeah it is not *that* terrible graphic-wise, the combat irritates me far more. Seriously, Divinity: Original Sin's turn based system worked so well, I don't see the point behind this real-time with pause bullcrap.

Yeah I surprisingly dig the graphics *and* gameplay of Pillars, it does have issues, but I find it to be a really good nostalgia RPG. Which also means I should play it more, it is quite funny, when it came out I played it for a while, then decided to do with NWN2 what I did with BG2 now, and give it another chance (prior to that NWN2 was also barely playable to me), and that game sucked me in so much I never finished Pillars .

Planescape's widescreen mod is a total pain in the arse. Causes crashes once an hour or so and I had to uninstall and reinstall it (along with the text size mod) a few times because it wouldn't load up the next screen.

And yeah, Divinity's turned based combat was poetry. Hard as fuck and very unforgiving but it totally made the game (whereas the story didn't really interest me too much, but it didn't matter too much coz it was fun to play).

I think BG2 was interrupted about 3 times before I finished it. Probably took me a month to do, whereas Pillars I spammed 70 hours over a few days. Games should learn not to butt in when you're on a roll!

Written by [user id=4365] on 30.07.2015 at 00:51

Written by Uldreth on 30.07.2015 at 00:23

Nah, its the complete edition from gog, I doubt it is patched. Truth to be told, I am not sure if the widescreen patch for BG2 works better or not, but I remember it caused some issues for PS:T when I used it, so I didn't bother with it this time. Small screen size is annoying, but otherwise I doubt any graphical improvement would be significant. And yeah it is not *that* terrible graphic-wise, the combat irritates me far more. Seriously, Divinity: Original Sin's turn based system worked so well, I don't see the point behind this real-time with pause bullcrap.

Yeah I surprisingly dig the graphics *and* gameplay of Pillars, it does have issues, but I find it to be a really good nostalgia RPG. Which also means I should play it more, it is quite funny, when it came out I played it for a while, then decided to do with NWN2 what I did with BG2 now, and give it another chance (prior to that NWN2 was also barely playable to me), and that game sucked me in so much I never finished Pillars .

Planescape's widescreen mod is a total pain in the arse. Causes crashes once an hour or so and I had to uninstall and reinstall it (along with the text size mod) a few times because it wouldn't load up the next screen.

And yeah, Divinity's turned based combat was poetry. Hard as fuck and very unforgiving but it totally made the game (whereas the story didn't really interest me too much, but it didn't matter too much coz it was fun to play).

I think BG2 was interrupted about 3 times before I finished it. Probably took me a month to do, whereas Pillars I spammed 70 hours over a few days. Games should learn not to butt in when you're on a roll!

wow who is back ---- lol

Written by Bad English on 30.07.2015 at 02:17


wow who is back ---- lol

More like passing through just to vent about games for a bit ;]

Written by [user id=4365] on 30.07.2015 at 12:27


More like passing through just to vent about games for a bit ;]

So yer not here to stay?

Written by Uldreth on 30.07.2015 at 12:40

So yer not here to stay?

Probably not =P maybe if I listen to new music this year, but I barely have.

Written by [user id=4365] on 30.07.2015 at 12:48

Written by Uldreth on 30.07.2015 at 12:40

So yer not here to stay?

Probably not =P maybe if I listen to new music this year, but I barely have.

it means you're not metal anymore?

I've become a plain rock -_- someone paint me!

Just occurred to me I also played Machinarium this year. Not really one for point and click adventures (I think the only one I ever finished was Secret of Monkey Island on the Amiga when I was about 8) but man, puzzles aside it's such a great experience. One of the best soundtracks I've ever heard, and looks amazing. Love the way the story is told too through thought bubbles. I cheated most of the way through it though, but it doesn't really matter.

After replaying Demon's Souls and Dark Souls recently, I've started Dark Souls 2 again (never finished it) and I already want to quit. I don't get it. It feels like a cheap rip off of the other two. I easily put over 200 hours in each of its predecessors, but it's hard for me to play DS2 for more than 15 minutes.

Blates made in the Bloodborne engine, which is not a bad thing in the slightest. Paint me more excited than Jimmy Savile in a children's emergency ward. Interestingly it sort of looks technically inferior to Bloodborne, not that it matters. No doubt the PC version will be crisper. They're obviously going for transparency after the DSII fiasco.

Written by [user id=142921] on 31.07.2015 at 12:48

Dead Space done!

I swear I tried really hard to like that game, but it didn't work out for me. The atmosphere didn't grab me, the monsters were kinda meh, the story was kinda lame, it wasn't even scary...

I guess I will add it to my list of overrated games that dissappointed me.

Dead Space games (first two) certainly aren't bad, but they're pretty much revolved around the novelty that you shoot the limbs off, rather than the head / torso. I enjoyed the unique weapons that resulted from it. Gets a bit lame after a while though (lol pun). Second one feels a bit bit better than the first; it just tweaks and refines it a little.

--

I certainly hope DSIII employs some of the faster combat of BB, but only when appropriate, otherwise it runs the risk of repeating the fairly rubbish gameplay of Demons Souls where everything feels sped up and makes the animations look jerky and unrealistic (which affects the gameplay to a large degree). Light, cloth-like armour would give BB-level speed and evasion but I also think it would be cool if they went the extra mile with the heavy armour; perhaps make it even slower and clunkier, but give a little (very little) additional defense as a result. High armour in other Souls games was pretty pointless in terms of giving extra defense. Bring back proper poise too. Make it all balanced of course. Would be bad if people could tank their way through the game with too much ease. Looking at that trailer again though it doesn't look likely: jump rolling 6 feet around the floor with ease whilst wearing full metal armour... Hmm. Guess I'll find out soon enough, but it only reduces the available gameplay styles when everything is too fast paced and doesn't abide by logical weight restrictions. Fine for BB; swinging around a fuck-off great concrete slab with fast paced impunity somehow worked, but not so much in a Souls game I reckon. I don't want another Demons Souls: I want my attacks, rolls, parries and general skill to mean something in a context that actually makes logical sense.

A couple of months ago I tried (very hard) to get into Blade of Darkness as many people seem to regard it as a Souls-like precursor and highly regard the melee combat system. Personally I thought it was terrible. Looked great for its time and had a lot of potential but the melee and evasion system was extremely unwieldy. One thing I did really like about it though which I think Souls games could learn from is that enemies could suffer from friendly fire, and even start attacking each other as a result. Would be great to see that level of awareness in a Souls game. I also quite liked the idea of extremely destructible shields too. I think Souls games would also benefit from something similar to that.

Written by [user id=142921] on 05.08.2015 at 16:29

Though going from Thief 3's Shalebridge Castleto Dead Space wasn't ideal. It's like transitioning from SoulsBorne's combat to Witcher's. Hard to appreciate the latter ya know?

Normally I take my time between games. If I ended one, I just stick to Dota 2 until another game gets my interest.

The last time I have so much fun in a videogame was South Park, and that says a lot. Maybe my love for games is disappearing :'(

Footage of a boss battle. As I suspected the rolling motion looks completely wrong; lobbing your character 8 feet across the screen in a fast-forward, overly light and nimble fashion. Doesn't look natural at all; looks like it's almost comically bouncing around at one point during the double roll. Boss isn't too inspiring either. Looks pretty enough though, despite the film quality.



More footage here. Yeah, looks more like an action game at this point. Twinkle toes clad in full knight armour dancing along the floor, swinging around an ultra greatsword in one hand like it weighs as much as a stick. I hope this gets some serious tweaking before release but as it stands it looks like all the superior mechanical improvements of DS2 have been thrown out the window whinge moan moan.

Written by [user id=142921] on 06.08.2015 at 17:55


Looks very floaty ye. The most extreme it's been I'd say. The sprint animation looks exactly like the Demon's Souls one. The strafing is weird. It's like he takes imaginary steps between the real steps so he moves further than what he should.

Yeah the strafing is really weird and bothers me a lot =P no one moves like that... the way he / she moves as fast left and right, and backwards, as moving forward is a bit uncanny valley for me for some reason. Also wondering if they've done away with tiered rolling (fat/medium/fast etc.) as the roll looks very fast despite being clad in armour and having a shield and zweihander (I think). I'm hoping it's just for the demo.

Written by [user id=142921] on 14.08.2015 at 14:10


Rejoice!

~'The demo characters were indeed sped up. Builds using heavy armor like the ones in the demo will be slower in the final game'

Thank funk for that.

Still think weapons are too feathery though =p

Just tried playing Touhou 15 which got released yesterday.
Well, I don't know if I'm getting rusty at it, but what the hell was that? Went for normal level and lost all the damn continues without even finishing the game lel

Written by [user id=142921] on 14.08.2015 at 17:17


google translation: Question:The general tempo of Dark Souls 3 is higher than in previous titles and is strongly reminiscent of bloodborne. How do you ensure that even hard-bound characters remain sufficiently agile if it is almost regarded as a must due to the much nimbler and more numerous enemies?

Miyazaki: The two characters that were available in the demo at Gamescom, their heavy armor and WEAPONS in defiance are intentionally designed something more agile. We want to demonstrate to the players, in which direction we want to go with Dark Souls 3. In the final game of the hero is, however, be much slower with such equipment. But we make sure that a minimum level of speed is maintained so that even heavy tank builds come without drawbacks through the game.

Me: Maybes weapons were fiddled with too.

Article: http://www.pcgames.de/Dark-Souls-3-Spiel-55615/Specials/Hidetaka-Miyazaki-im-Gamescom-Interview-1167759/

Well that sounds positive. Not sure why they'd demo something which isn't going to be representative of the final game though. Perhaps they only decided after the demo to dial it back a bit.

Currently have Twitch plays Dark Souls going on in the background. It's painful to watch. They're never going to get anywhere.