The title says it all. I've always wondered what is indeed the best way to teach music to a person who is learning the instrument that you know best. Of course, one can point to obvious points like:

1. Learning songs - while this may work in building stamina and coordination, think about people who spend all their time learning songs that are completely illiterate when it comes to improvising, listening skills, or have no rhythm at all because they depend on the songs drum beat when the song comes on.

2. Finding your own style by playing around on the instrument - This can be important for any musician to build independence of your own style for improvising and writing music, but I find that people who don't expand beyond their own style are rather monotone.

3. Learning scales, chord theory, and progressions - may not be the best place for someone to start off, since it often confuses the individual from learning. But think, if we can get a person starting to understand how these things work, then wouldn't it make them even stronger in learning songs or finding their own style?

My mum is also a music teacher, myself I've had quite a few teachers throughout. I see time and time again that certain parts of teaching make the student robotic in playing and often doesn't understand what they are playing just sort nodding their head and saying yes.

But then again, all of these teachers teach what they teach for a reason eh? I mean, without the foundation that they're giving, perhaps exploring the instrument with your own personality would be impossible, or would it?

Lets say someone approached you today, and asked you to sit down with them for an hour to explain the basics of playing the instrument you know. What would be the best way? Some would tell them 'practice the minor pentatonic scale and see me next week' or some would say 'This is chord (insert name) and this is chord (insert name) see how that makes sense?'.

Pretty long ass topic post, but you get it. The question is, how would YOU teach someone the instrument you play?

Hmm i think you are right, but learning song's only by ear... Not using noobish softwares as Guitar pro or Power guitar or something... Any way, you cant play instument if you dont have a bit of sence for rythm. Rythm is starting thing you should learn. But for the scales, theory and those things... That comes with time only if musician is interested in learning it for future knowlege. I play keyboards for 5 years of classic and 1 and a half year of metal. I have not been in any of music schools, i only learned songs from ear, and i learned scalles and schords from internet.

Written by [user id=33475] on 29.06.2008 at 14:39

Hmm i think you are right, but learning song's only by ear... Not using noobish softwares as Guitar pro or Power guitar or something... Any way, you cant play instument if you dont have a bit of sence for rythm. Rythm is starting thing you should learn. But for the scales, theory and those things... That comes with time only if musician is interested in learning it for future knowlege. I play keyboards for 5 years of classic and 1 and a half year of metal. I have not been in any of music schools, i only learned songs from ear, and i learned scalles and schords from internet.

Yes, I agree with you as well. Learning by ear is much more beneficial in listening skills then getting attached to tablature. But then again, everyone has to start somewhere right? I mean, I wouldn't expect someone who never picked up an instrument to know which key I'm playing in if I hummed a note. So, perhaps, a newbie should learn how all the notes work together? What do you think?

Rhythm... as a bassist, I could say it is easily the most important aspect of my instrument. I love adding fills and arpeggios, but if someone can't do it on time or accurately, then that isn't worth much in the long run, so I agree with you, very important. The first thing someone should do if they are new (and serious) is to get a metronome, play at a pace that every single note played is as accurate and comfortable as possible, then that leaves room for improvement.

Perhaps you're right, the theory should be added later when the individual is ready when they are comfortable with their instrument. I think though, that throwing a scale or two at someone to have them practice with metronome would be a great place to build foundation for rhythm and listening.

cheers.

I myself have been learning from a teacher who gives private lessons in his basement. He's very talented and knows a shitload about musical theory. I would say it's been about a year i've been taking lessons, i know a few scales, he's teaching classical, and i know of course, alot of chords. Learning an instrument is alot of dedication imo. It's a different story if someone just wants to pick up a guitar and jam some tunes. I'm talking musical theory, isn't a walk through the park, i get discouraged often, but i love guitar so i can't let that get in the way. Through my own experience of being teached, i think the best way is to throw some musical theory at your student (simple at first of course), and once he's learning that, later on but not to far ahead, make him learn a song he likes and make him notice how to 'dissect' a song, like see in what key they're playing in, what time signature they're using or if they're even changing time signature during the song, the progression of notes, chords, etc. But i think you're right in saying we all have to develop our own style that's important.

I guess I'd find it impossible. Sure, you can show someone how to "imitate" (or at least give hints on you feel things should be done) but in order to actually "create" music if that person does not already possess a certain level of talent/creativity i believe it is in vain.

I never managed to understand anything theory related but assuming i would then I guess I'd take my student for a walk and simply talk to him about all that crap .

Also, I never really had patience for the metronome so I guess I'd be the crappiest teacher around these parts so I'll just stick to playing.

Written by Visioneerie on 29.06.2008 at 18:36

Through my own experience of being teached, i think the best way is to throw some musical theory at your student (simple at first of course), and once he's learning that, later on but not to far ahead, make him learn a song he likes and make him notice how to 'dissect' a song, like see in what key they're playing in, what time signature they're using or if they're even changing time signature during the song, the progression of notes, chords, etc. But i think you're right in saying we all have to develop our own style that's important.

I think your teacher has it right, he can communicate his experience and thoughts about music in a manner that the student can understand, also applying it to something that interests the student. It can get frustrating when it's the other way around and the teacher wants the student to play something that interests the teacher.

Here are my thoughts on developing your own style:

I don't know about anyone here, but besides my love for music, I also love painting and sketching. Before I ever had someone teach me about art, I felt that I did what I did the best way that I possibly could. Until I went through art class in high school, my teacher showed me the vast amount of techniques and gave me the direction I needed to expand my own artistic expression. If I was without that knowledge of how to apply textures, color contrasts, detail, my artistic expression would be neglected IMO.

I feel it's the same with music, expression and discipline need to go hand in hand with each other in order to have success. On the other hand, someone who has no artistic expression can learn all the technique and skill in the world and wouldn't be able to effect anyone on a aesthetic level. I found my own expression from improvising, but I was only able to effectively do so after I found the discipline.

Written by NECURATU on 29.06.2008 at 19:00

I guess I'd find it impossible. Sure, you can show someone how to "imitate" (or at least give hints on you feel things should be done) but in order to actually "create" music if that person does not already possess a certain level of talent/creativity i believe it is in vain.

Also this. I think if someone doesn't have the motivation to play the instrument that they're learning, they should either give up or desperately find something to balance them out. Playing the instrument you're learning should not be a chore.

Written by Sunioj on 29.06.2008 at 13:35

I see time and time again that certain parts of teaching make the student robotic in playing and often doesn't understand what they are playing just sort nodding their head and saying yes.

This right here is actually a big topic of discussion for musicians in general, people often debate whether it's better to take technical/classical type training or to be self taught and just improvise. I can see how both would be important and I think overall it depends on the aspiring musician and how creative their mind is, even though I've heard it's very difficult to break yourself free from structured music theory.

I've been playing guitar on and off for the last 9 or 10 years, and within the last year of playing around on my guitar almost every day I've improved and understood music more than ever. I'm not a good guitar player but my bandmate/friend who has studied and been in a bunch of bands said that although he doesn't quite understand my train of thought while writing rythem guitar, that he does like it because I don't have that limitation he feels he has from learning some music theory.

I use to have this turmoil with art, but came to realize that learning the technical know how such as perspective, the way light falls on a subject, proper shading and so on, that I could use those realistic elements to make my surreal art even more surreal because I try to mix proper aspects with the impossible thus creating a more convincing piece. I think it works the same for music, if you know a few rules then you can bend them to your will and create something thats outside the regular music spectrum.

All that being said, I think the best way to teach someone is to tell them some basic chords, let them examine tabs of their favourite music and just let them experiment then help them with any questions they may have.

Written by Bitter Dawn on 30.06.2008 at 10:06

This right here is actually a big topic of discussion for musicians in general, people often debate whether it's better to take technical/classical type training or to be self taught and just improvise. I can see how both would be important and I think overall it depends on the aspiring musician and how creative their mind is, even though I've heard it's very difficult to break yourself free from structured music theory.

I've been playing guitar on and off for the last 9 or 10 years, and within the last year of playing around on my guitar almost every day I've improved and understood music more than ever. I'm not a good guitar player but my bandmate/friend who has studied and been in a bunch of bands said that although he doesn't quite understand my train of thought while writing rythem guitar, that he does like it because I don't have that limitation he feels he has from learning some music theory.

I use to have this turmoil with art, but came to realize that learning the technical know how such as perspective, the way light falls on a subject, proper shading and so on, that I could use those realistic elements to make my surreal art even more surreal because I try to mix proper aspects with the impossible thus creating a more convincing piece. I think it works the same for music, if you know a few rules then you can bend them to your will and create something thats outside the regular music spectrum.

All that being said, I think the best way to teach someone is to tell them some basic chords, let them examine tabs of their favourite music and just let them experiment then help them with any questions they may have.

Yup, bending the so called rules to our will. What we have at hand in terms of technique and style are just templates for playing that people have been striving to perfect, its up to us to take advantage of and to make it work towards our expressive traits. The key is letting go in the template (technique, style) that we are best in. Having no limits, so to speak. Cool that we could see this comparison through art

Perhaps teaching works differently from person to person... or not. It depends on will, if a person has the motivation, then they will learn from their teacher in the best way possible. The only difference when a person is self teaching, that if they don't have motivation, they won't even pick up the instrument


Some people need to have things shown to them hands on by other people, all in all I think the best attitude to learn an instrument is if the person likes that instrument enough to the point where they would want to teach themselves. I advocate self teaching myself, hell that's how I am with the bass, but I probably wouldn't have half the discipline or listening skills if I never had those lessons from previous teachers.

Written by Sunioj on 29.06.2008 at 13:35

2. Finding your own style by playing around on the instrument - This can be important for any musician to build independence of your own style for improvising and writing music, but I find that people who don't expand beyond their own style are rather monotone.

imo for that you have to have lots and loooots of patience, willpower, time and energy, i know lots of people who just got taught couple of songs going and never bothered to go further... lame. i watched a music class i used to go to progress over 8 months or so, and there were girls who didn't know more than 5 songs or so, while i(keep in mind though that before that i studied on my own for about 3 months or so) knew at least 10, and not just the stuff the teacher gave us, but some more hard stuff like Seasons in the Abyss by Slayer.

Written by Valentin B on 04.07.2008 at 11:11

Written by Sunioj on 29.06.2008 at 13:35

2. Finding your own style by playing around on the instrument - This can be important for any musician to build independence of your own style for improvising and writing music, but I find that people who don't expand beyond their own style are rather monotone.

imo for that you have to have lots and loooots of patience, willpower, time and energy, i know lots of people who just got taught couple of songs going and never bothered to go further... lame. i watched a music class i used to go to progress over 8 months or so, and there were girls who didn't know more than 5 songs or so, while i(keep in mind though that before that i studied on my own for about 3 months or so) knew at least 10, and not just the stuff the teacher gave us, but some more hard stuff like Seasons in the Abyss by Slayer.

It does indeed take motivation, if you love what you're playing then practicing and developing yourself should be enjoyable. The attitude should be always to better yourself, being satisfied with your current level, for me, get's boring

Did you learn from the class at all? How was that experience for you? As for me, I don't think I benefited that much from theory lessons when I had them. Though I was young, as soon as my bad attitude changed learning new things became much easier.

The last class I had was 2-3 years ago for the latin choir doing basso. If there is one thing that lessons don't change is the attitude, only the person learning the music can do that.

Written by Sunioj on 04.07.2008 at 15:19

Did you learn from the class at all? How was that experience for you? As for me, I don't think I benefited that much from theory lessons when I had them. Though I was young, as soon as my bad attitude changed learning new things became much easier.

The last class I had was 2-3 years ago for the latin choir doing basso. If there is one thing that lessons don't change is the attitude, only the person learning the music can do that.

well, i learned some stuff, and it gave me a solid basis for learning more complicated riffs and other shit(though i'm almost a total noob with solo's). for instance i finally got over how major/minor chords are formed.. took me like 4 months or so to figure it out other than that i managed to learn pretty decent rhythm guitar, i now know most of the common chords,i can form basically any chord i want, even some of the 7th's. i don't think i would have had the patience to do that on my own(i think that even with all the willpower and talent in the world you still have to have someone teach you stuff, there are things in music, for example how to do a key change.. you have to be a genius to learn that on your own in a short time like a week or so)

the teacher was a bit of a hippie, lots of times talking about the bands he had when he was young, and he mainly taught us popular songs like what if god was one of us or house of the rising sun. the bad thing though was the fact that he was too manipulative, i don't think he realizes this but he wants to turn the students in some kind of wedding band(he was in a few wedding bands as he told us) instead of doing it the right way, but it's understandable as he had to synchronize like 15 people all at once lol. a much better way to deal with that would be more private lessons, like 4-5 per class. at least it was really cheap

also i just remembered he prided himself in not being a 'voice equalizer', like he said the choir teachers are.. yeah right

Written by Valentin B on 04.07.2008 at 17:00

well, i learned some stuff, and it gave me a solid basis for learning more complicated riffs and other shit(though i'm almost a total noob with solo's). for instance i finally got over how major/minor chords are formed.. took me like 4 months or so to figure it out other than that i managed to learn pretty decent rhythm guitar, i now know most of the common chords,i can form basically any chord i want, even some of the 7th's. i don't think i would have had the patience to do that on my own(i think that even with all the willpower and talent in the world you still have to have someone teach you stuff, there are things in music, for example how to do a key change.. you have to be a genius to learn that on your own in a short time like a week or so)

the teacher was a bit of a hippie, lots of times talking about the bands he had when he was young, and he mainly taught us popular songs like what if god was one of us or house of the rising sun. the bad thing though was the fact that he was too manipulative, i don't think he realizes this but he wants to turn the students in some kind of wedding band(he was in a few wedding bands as he told us) instead of doing it the right way, but it's understandable as he had to synchronize like 15 people all at once lol. a much better way to deal with that would be more private lessons, like 4-5 per class. at least it was really cheap

also i just remembered he prided himself in not being a 'voice equalizer', like he said the choir teachers are.. yeah right

Definitely, I don't consider myself 100% self taught though, as some of the most fundamental things I've learned were from other people explaining or showing me hands on. For instance, I used to pick my bass and never really though about the purpose of playing with the fingers or the value of chords etc. until I got first hand advice from a experienced bass player. Though, I taught myself scales, progressions, and chords.

My cello teacher was a hungarian man that played for the Jerusalem Symphony, he was quite militaristic, but he's patient. Other than that, my mum headed the choir, I was doing it for service points in my educational program, but it was epic. I think having the ability to teach multiple is people is admirable though, I honestly don't think I have the patience.

Written by Sunioj on 04.07.2008 at 17:13

Definitely, I don't consider myself 100% self taught though, as some of the most fundamental things I've learned were from other people explaining or showing me hands on. For instance, I used to pick my bass and never really though about the purpose of playing with the fingers or the value of chords etc. until I got first hand advice from a experienced bass player. Though, I taught myself scales, progressions, and chords.

My cello teacher was a hungarian man that played for the Jerusalem Symphony, he was quite militaristic, but he's patient. Other than that, my mum headed the choir, I was doing it for service points in my educational program, but it was epic. I think having the ability to teach multiple is people is admirable though, I honestly don't think I have the patience.

while we're talking in this thread, could you explain me why would a bassist want to play chords? it sounds AWFUL, but if you mean arpegios then i agree some sound great, like the intro for Metallica's My Friend of Misery. one of the few bass riffs i learned on the guitar lol.

Written by Valentin B on 04.07.2008 at 17:47

Written by Sunioj on 04.07.2008 at 17:13

Definitely, I don't consider myself 100% self taught though, as some of the most fundamental things I've learned were from other people explaining or showing me hands on. For instance, I used to pick my bass and never really though about the purpose of playing with the fingers or the value of chords etc. until I got first hand advice from a experienced bass player. Though, I taught myself scales, progressions, and chords.

My cello teacher was a hungarian man that played for the Jerusalem Symphony, he was quite militaristic, but he's patient. Other than that, my mum headed the choir, I was doing it for service points in my educational program, but it was epic. I think having the ability to teach multiple is people is admirable though, I honestly don't think I have the patience.

while we're talking in this thread, could you explain me why would a bassist want to play chords? it sounds AWFUL, but if you mean arpegios then i agree some sound great, like the intro for Metallica's My Friend of Misery. one of the few bass riffs i learned on the guitar lol.

Sure, but it really depends how the chord is played though. Besides arpeggio, if you play at a low pitch and the notes are closer together, then it does sound muddy and distorted. So I only do complete chords when on a higher octave, and mainly triad figures too. Slapping diminished chords 5ths sounds awesome and dissonant.

Written by Sunioj on 04.07.2008 at 18:11

Written by Valentin B on 04.07.2008 at 17:47

while we're talking in this thread, could you explain me why would a bassist want to play chords? it sounds AWFUL, but if you mean arpegios then i agree some sound great, like the intro for Metallica's My Friend of Misery. one of the few bass riffs i learned on the guitar lol.

Sure, but it really depends how the chord is played though. Besides arpeggio, if you play at a low pitch and the notes are closer together, then it does sound muddy and distorted. So I only do complete chords when on a higher octave, and mainly triad figures too. Slapping diminished chords 5ths sounds awesome and dissonant.

diminished 5th chords, you mean like the intro to Black Sabbath? it's


G---------------
D------5--------
A-----------4---
E--3------------

The above chord, that's something I've never been able to get. I know most guitarists play with the tips of their fingers so the bottom part doesn't touch any other strings but it's pretty tricky.

Written by Bitter Dawn on 05.07.2008 at 11:39

The above chord, that's something I've never been able to get. I know most guitarists play with the tips of their fingers so the bottom part doesn't touch any other strings but it's pretty tricky.

er.. what? that chord is incredibly easy.. are you on drugs or something?

you can't play that simple diminished G5?

Written by Valentin B on 05.07.2008 at 10:46


diminished 5th chords, you mean like the intro to Black Sabbath? it's


G---------------
D------5--------
A-----------4---
E--3------------

Yeah, exactly. I normally add it in occasionally when I'm walking bass lines, since continuous use of complete diminished 5ths can be a little overwhelming lol.

Written by Valentin B on 05.07.2008 at 12:08

Written by Bitter Dawn on 05.07.2008 at 11:39

The above chord, that's something I've never been able to get. I know most guitarists play with the tips of their fingers so the bottom part doesn't touch any other strings but it's pretty tricky.

er.. what? that chord is incredibly easy.. are you on drugs or something?

you can't play that simple diminished G5?

I think I just realized my idiocy again. That chord looks like it's set up in a arpeggio style, since it said chord I automatically assumed it was all notes played at once, which would actually sound not so good.
But I have seen some odd figure placements similar to the above where one finger is inbetween two others, and that's hard.

Written by Valentin B on 04.07.2008 at 17:47


while we're talking in this thread, could you explain me why would a bassist want to play chords? it sounds AWFUL.

There was this motherfucker in Gorguts (on Obscura, not familiar with the rest of their work) who played a lot of chords and stuff and his bandbmates actually encouraged him to do that because it sounded so BIG .

There was a clip with him on youtube and he seemed a nice, albeit sick musician .

I've been wondering what everyone's take on speed is. I've found that practicing scales is a lot more beneficial then playing a song to work on speed. Because with the scales you can control it and it helps develops intonation. But songs can also help though... it terms of adding dynamics and such. But definitely practice scales and chords a lot more than songs.

As a bassist, I think I've always been more prone to take strong intonation over speed.

My whole life is suffocated with technical aspects so that's the thing i totally neglect in music. I mostly study classical now, so what I basically do is listen to as many interpretations of the composition as possible and do my best to come up with a good interpretation of my own. One guy will play a theme really fast and strong and another will take it really slow and mellow so the whole point of speed becomes relative.

I don't allow myself so much freedom in interpretation yet (i guess i really just play the notes right now) but...wait...i'm avoiding the subject. Besides chords and scales maybe you should also try any kind of complicated passages you can find, maybe with string crossing and stuff and move 'em up and down the neck, then perhaps invert them. There's a million ways you could improve your technique, practicing is the only thing that really matters.

Written by Sunioj on 18.07.2008 at 20:06
As a bassist, I think I've always been more prone to take strong intonation over speed.

if by intonation you mean the way it sounds, I initially tried changing the way I pluck the string (for example if i wanted to make it quiet i would pluck it with thumb and index to muffle it up) but it got a bit complicated so yeah, basically I'm neglecting that as well right now .

Written by NECURATU on 19.07.2008 at 18:44

My whole life is suffocated with technical aspects so that's the thing i totally neglect in music. I mostly study classical now, so what I basically do is listen to as many interpretations of the composition as possible and do my best to come up with a good interpretation of my own. One guy will play a theme really fast and strong and another will take it really slow and mellow so the whole point of speed becomes relative.

I don't allow myself so much freedom in interpretation yet (i guess i really just play the notes right now) but...wait...i'm avoiding the subject. Besides chords and scales maybe you should also try any kind of complicated passages you can find, maybe with string crossing and stuff and move 'em up and down the neck, then perhaps invert them. There's a million ways you could improve your technique, practicing is the only thing that really matters.

Written by Sunioj on 18.07.2008 at 20:06
As a bassist, I think I've always been more prone to take strong intonation over speed.

if by intonation you mean the way it sounds, I initially tried changing the way I pluck the string (for example if i wanted to make it quiet i would pluck it with thumb and index to muffle it up) but it got a bit complicated so yeah, basically I'm neglecting that as well right now .

I wouldn't care so much about being technically savvy. I mean, do you think you've neglected that part because you care more about expressing yourself rather than dwelling on a technique that others will say 'wow' to? If so, cheers man, I consider myself in the same boat

By intonation I mean, how accurate the note is played, how clean it registers and such, so yeah. Agreed that practicing is the only thing that matters, but my point is that unlike playing a song, if a person chooses to practice scales, they can control their progression and speed by using a click track or metronome.

When you have a song playing, the speed is constant and doesn't leave much room for the person playing to improve parts that their intonation at the given speed (unless they actually sit down and practice that individual part) IMO. I can see it being difficult for a person who can play quarter notes @ 80 bpm to try to take on a song that requires tremelo picking for quarter notes @ 110 bpm. Not saying someone shouldn't, but to me, speed should be a gradual thing that someone works on.

I'm really picky with tone as you see

I'm almost exclusively self-taught on guitar. I started out with tabs and moved on to chordes, then scales, then excercises and theory. I've had help from fellow guitarists here and there and it's helped a lot but never any "real" lessons. I've also focused more on improving and listening to songs to pick out things that sound good and emulating/ incorporating what I find.
From what I've seen in my experiences in trying to teach people guitar I've found that what works best most of the time is to kind of hold their hand through a basic scale and let them play a little bit. then maybe try to improv. a small riff with them. After that, work up to chordes (starting with power chorde) and work with them using power chorde on a scale and fitting other chordes together. By the time they get all of that down they will have built working through scales, working with chordes, (very) basic composition and playing with rythm. At that point you just give them what tips you can on improving on their own and where to look for info.

I am self taught.

I started out playing with my thumb resting the guitar on my lap, instead of under my arm like a steel guitar. Eventually I played things the right way, instead of the left way...erm...wrong way.

I think really if you have ambition to want to play, you can pick up by messing around with it in the beginning. Of coarse with occasionaly advice.

tabit. tabit is fucking awesome. tablature for retards, let me tell you.

also, nothing, NOTHING beats formal lessons, besides the fact that you can say youre 112% self taught and are just that guy who's self taught.

I would say take lessons for a year(if you can afford it) to see what you are capable of doing, then use whatever method works best for you(playing things by ear is my preferance) to improve your own skills. Also try finding people who better at the instument then yourself, you can always pick something up from others & even ask them for tips/techniques they use. Trying to learn songs/scales/etc never hurts & Tabit is a great tool to practice with as well. Then just try to find what you enjoy most about your instrument & try to channel that through your music if that makes any sense...

From personal experience:
First of all the individual should be really interested in learning to play a musical instrument; it's very noticeable when they're not, when they're just in it because it looks kool to play electric guitar.
I got interested in playing guitar because of heavy metal...
Has to have at least a liitle bit of talent: I've never been able to coordinate my moves in a drum kit but always felt very comfortable with the guitar.
After having fulfilled these first two requirements, then you can be the best musician there is, if that's your goal. You can learn with a musical teacher, with the internet, with a friend, a little bit of all of these and by yourself, practicing, practicing. Eventually, you're gonna be hearing how you're getting better with time.
A few exceptional people are born with musical talent, but for the rest of us is practice... practice... practice...

For guitars, Just throw them some basic chords, to develop finger strength and to introduce them to the instrument.

then teach them to learn songs by ear, to make sure that they aren't 'tone deaf'

then Music theory, this will be the last thing to teach before the student goes by himself. It's best to teach when the student is already on the 'comfort zone' of creating music.