Metallica are the Holy Grail of Thrash Metal.Now we all know that,once,it also had Dave Mustaine in its ranks.Now I want to know where would have Metallica been now had the volatile but hyper-talented Mustaine still been around with them?

If wrathchild sees this, it's gonna be locked. As far as the question itself. It's very easy to fall into the delusion that if you put good musicians together they will write good music together. I don't think so. Mustaine could have benefited Metallica if he hadn't been kicked out just as he could have harmed it. I think nothing much would have changed. Metallica and Megadeth basically went along the same path. So if Mustaine had stayed, Metallica would still have had the 80's era, the 90's change of sound, and the nowadays "return to the roots."

I've never been a big fan of Megadeth, I'm not to keen on Mustaine's plus Kirk is my all time favorite guitarist simply because he knows how to harmonize the lead with the rythm to perfection. I think Metallica would have been good, maybe great but wouldn't be my favorite band as they are today, Slayer would have topped them easily.

Need some help here. Why do people think Metallica would have been better if Mustaine was kicked out?? I have never understood this. I love Mustaine (best thrash metal guitarist) but he belongs in Megadeth. I'm glad he got kicked out so we have megadeth to listen to. Metallica and Mustaine would never work out. If he wasnt kicked out, he would have been a few years down the road or the band would have simply broke up. There would be no Lighting or PUPPETS!!!!!! Mustaine being kicked out was one of the best moves in metal history, for the reasons that Metallica is still around (even though the new stuff is terrible, but they still play the classic stuff live) and Megadeth exists. I voted can't say, but really, Metallica is better off without Mustaine.

I think they would have just been Megadeth. It would have been the same thing as Kill 'Em All for the rest of their career. I'm not saying thats a bad thing though.

Metallica is James hetfield and thats all and all of us know it! even without mustaine or kirk or lars meatllica is metallica as maiden is maiden with Steve. its my opinion. and I think that if james wasnt at metallica now they were dead.

"They would have stayed the way they are" is my answer

They woulda been better. Not the biggest fan of either parties, but its a fact. Kirk sucks.

Kirk sucks?yeah he made great solos in 8 albums but he sucks yeah you're right of course.....

Well, in riffs Mustaine is way better than kirk even is solos I can't see why people prefer Kirk, Mustaine is a composer , vocalist and song writer so he's a whole band while Kirk is just a normal guitarist ......

I don't really see why people still go on about how good Mustaine was in Metallica, he was in the band for 6 months, Metallica is now 28 years old, he only co-wrote 5-6 tracks on the first album, and that's that, end of story. i don't know what road they would have taken, but i'm pretty sure Metallica with Dave wouldn't have had this kind of media exposure :rolleyes:

Written by Valentin B on 25.10.2009 at 23:14

I don't really see why people still go on about how good Mustaine was in Metallica,

Agreed. We got 3 really good timeless albums out of Metallica with Dave not in the band (ok, the material that he wrote obviously would have been in the album either way). If Dave never got kicked out we may not have had Ride The Lightning. My answer? I don't give a shit, people need to move on from the Mustaine vs Metallica thing.

This could easily be discussed in the Metallica vs Megadeth thread.

Written by Doc G. on 25.10.2009 at 23:49

Written by Valentin B on 25.10.2009 at 23:14

I don't really see why people still go on about how good Mustaine was in Metallica,

Agreed. We got 3 really good timeless albums out of Metallica with Dave not in the band (ok, the material that he wrote obviously would have been in the album either way). If Dave never got kicked out we may not have had Ride The Lightning. My answer? I don't give a shit, people need to move on from the Mustaine vs Metallica thing.

I fully agree. Why bitch about this when we have those three albums?

I had this exact discussion with a friend some years ago and we both came up with a similar conclusion:
So the line up would have been (at least to start with) - Hetfield, Ulrich, Burton, Mustaine
I think we would have had three of the greatest albums ever recorded, probably better than puppets and lightning, the after burtons death the band would have split, dave would probably have killed himself with through the drugs, hetfield and Ulrichs bond wouldn't have been as strong so we both thought it likely the band would have split in November 1986.

Just a normal guitarist? Kirk Sucks?
I'm sorry I can see these comments too clearly, maybe I'm reading wrong, but how dose Kirk suck?
I mean I prefer Mustaine, vocalist, songwriter, composer all great traits, and I agree Dave has much better riffs, solos are maybe equal if slightly in favor of Kirk.
Hammett is the better "guitarist", while Dave is the better "Musician"

Written by Guest on 25.10.2009 at 20:17

Metallica is James hetfield and thats all and all of us know it! even without mustaine or kirk or lars meatllica is metallica as maiden is maiden with Steve. its my opinion. and I think that if james wasnt at metallica now they were dead.

"They would have stayed the way they are" is my answer

FUCK YA!!!!!!!!!!!! James is god and Metallica wouldnt be who they are without him. Nice to hear someone else who has the same opinion i do. Keep it Metal!!!!

If Mustaine and Metallica had stayed together, it is highly likely that we wouldn't have been subjected to the completely disgusting albums that both Megadeth and Metallica released between 1995 and 2005. No amount of Peace Sells or Master of Puppets is worth having to listen to Risk or St. Anger. It's almost like they were competing for 10 years to see who could come closest to ruining their careers and credibility without completely alienating their core fanbase.

Written by skrätte on 26.10.2009 at 05:10

If Mustaine and Metallica had stayed together, it is highly likely that we wouldn't have been subjected to the completely disgusting albums that both Megadeth and Metallica released between 1995 and 2005. No amount of Peace Sells or Master of Puppets is worth having to listen to Risk or St. Anger. It's almost like they were competing for 10 years to see who could come closest to ruining their careers and credibility without completely alienating their core fanbase.

I don't think we wouldn't be subjected to "disgusting albums" because basically the whole thrash scene was in decline, and I don't think anything would change.

This fuckold topic again. Either way, Mustaine + Metallica would've never worked out. You got a really talented guitarist/composer/songwriter/entrepreneur and put him in a band where he can't get more than 50% of his capacity out.

Instead, Mustaine started Megadeth and the world got 2 holy grails of thrash metal. The way I see it, there is no better way it could've happened!

Written by Doc G. on 25.10.2009 at 23:49

Written by Valentin B on 25.10.2009 at 23:14

I don't really see why people still go on about how good Mustaine was in Metallica,

Agreed. We got 3 really good timeless albums out of Metallica with Dave not in the band (ok, the material that he wrote obviously would have been in the album either way). If Dave never got kicked out we may not have had Ride The Lightning. My answer? I don't give a shit, people need to move on from the Mustaine vs Metallica thing.

This could easily be discussed in the Metallica vs Megadeth thread.

Mustaine was with Metallica when they were at their foundation level.And Metallica became legendary in the American Metal underground in the '82-'83 period and that was with Dave Mustaine.Without a strong foundation a band cannot become legendary and also Kirk used Dave's solos as a template to work from.

Written by Thrash666 on 25.10.2009 at 19:11

Need some help here. Why do people think Metallica would have been better if Mustaine was kicked out?? I have never understood this. I love Mustaine (best thrash metal guitarist) but he belongs in Megadeth. I'm glad he got kicked out so we have megadeth to listen to. Metallica and Mustaine would never work out. If he wasnt kicked out, he would have been a few years down the road or the band would have simply broke up. There would be no Lighting or PUPPETS!!!!!! Mustaine being kicked out was one of the best moves in metal history, for the reasons that Metallica is still around (even though the new stuff is terrible, but they still play the classic stuff live) and Megadeth exists. I voted can't say, but really, Metallica is better off without Mustaine.

I agree that there would have been no Megadeth,but also think that the great technicality of Megadeth would also have been added to Metallica.

They would have sounded even better for a bit, but would probably have broken up by '89 due to a clash of egos. They would have gone out on a high though...

Written by Jonnz of Steel on 26.10.2009 at 14:59

They would have sounded even better for a bit, but would probably have broken up by '89 due to a clash of egos. They would have gone out on a high though...

Interesting view

Written by Galar on 25.10.2009 at 21:23

They woulda been better. Not the biggest fan of either parties, but its a fact. Kirk sucks.

I kind of agree.

Written by Hermann Langke on 26.10.2009 at 14:30

Written by Doc G. on 25.10.2009 at 23:49

Written by Valentin B on 25.10.2009 at 23:14

I don't really see why people still go on about how good Mustaine was in Metallica,

Agreed. We got 3 really good timeless albums out of Metallica with Dave not in the band (ok, the material that he wrote obviously would have been in the album either way). If Dave never got kicked out we may not have had Ride The Lightning. My answer? I don't give a shit, people need to move on from the Mustaine vs Metallica thing.

This could easily be discussed in the Metallica vs Megadeth thread.

Mustaine was with Metallica when they were at their foundation level.And Metallica became legendary in the American Metal underground in the '82-'83 period and that was with Dave Mustaine.Without a strong foundation a band cannot become legendary and also Kirk used Dave's solos as a template to work from.

Mustaine was in the band for 6 months, I wish people would stop thinking Metallica begins and ends with Mustaine. There were other contributing members of Metallica as well you know...Dave was not the "foundation" of Metallica, and I think they proved that by the time Master Of Puppets came out...

His solo's were used on the first album, Metallica had two very strong albums afterwards mind you.

It's widely known, that Dave Mustaine was kicked out of Metallica due to his excessive drinking. They were all very young and they all drunk a lot, so Mustaine must've outdone himself tenfold to deserve a kick.
Let's venture an assumption that he doesn't drink so much and he stays. Two very strong personalities of the leaders (Hetfield and Ulrich) clash with an equally strong personality with strong inclinations towards dictatorship (Mustaine). Either they'd kick him out later for other reasons, or he'd leave himself, or they band would split up.
All in all, it's good for all fans of metal that Dave was shown the out door. We got Megadeth, the band that is definitely in the top 3 of all thrash bands (along with, obviously, Metallica and Slayer), and possibly in the top 10 of the best metal bands ever (at least for me). If he stayed, we'd never have "Rust in Peace".

Written by Hermann Langke on 26.10.2009 at 14:35

Written by Thrash666 on 25.10.2009 at 19:11

Need some help here. Why do people think Metallica would have been better if Mustaine was kicked out?? I have never understood this. I love Mustaine (best thrash metal guitarist) but he belongs in Megadeth. I'm glad he got kicked out so we have megadeth to listen to. Metallica and Mustaine would never work out. If he wasnt kicked out, he would have been a few years down the road or the band would have simply broke up. There would be no Lighting or PUPPETS!!!!!! Mustaine being kicked out was one of the best moves in metal history, for the reasons that Metallica is still around (even though the new stuff is terrible, but they still play the classic stuff live) and Megadeth exists. I voted can't say, but really, Metallica is better off without Mustaine.

I agree that there would have been no Megadeth,but also think that the great technicality of Megadeth would also have been added to Metallica.

True. But i have always thought the type of playing of Mustaine never fit in Metallica. Mustaine is pure speed and Metallica is a mixture.

Well, lets think about that idea...

If Mustaine had been in the band, I doubt they would have underwent the experimental years of the 90s (aka. the decade that all their fans abandoned them because of Load and ReLoad), because, like we saw with the albums after Risk, Mustaine gave up on experimenting because the fans didn't like it. Now a lot of you will see that as a good thing, but I personally like ReLoad (and a few songs from Load also).

That's just one possibility. Here's another...

From what we've seen with Megadeth's albums, Dave is extremely politically active, whereas Metallica has tried to stay generally out of dabbling with politics (though many Metallica-fans have tried to place political meaning behind several of their songs). If Metallica (plus Dave) had made politcally-active songs, it would be, in my opinion, a greater selling out than Death Magnetic (or as the Metallica-haters love to say, every album after master of puppets) since they would be subscribing to a trend that most other musicians - from black metal to pop - subscribe to: ostracizing their fans with politically-one-sided songs.

A lot of criticism Metallica has gotten over the years has been that Kirk Hammett uses the wah-pedal too much with solos. Well, whats wrong with that? I'm sure as far back as Chuck Berry and Jimi Hendrix, there were critics who insulted them for the techniques that they have received their due world-wide renown. I personally don't mind the wah, and I hope that, if Metallica makes another album, Kirk keeps on "wahing", to show that he, like Metallica was before Death Magnetic, makes music HIS way.

Here's a profound question that we should ask ourselves in this discussion...what about Cliff?

I'm sure that, because of Ron's lack of creativity, Metallica would have gotten Cliff Burton despite Dave's departure (I'm not too well-known about early-Metallica, so I might be a little off there). However, that is not what I'm discussing. I'm discussing Cliff's death.

That night on the bus, Kirk switched seats with Cliff (I'm not sure why) just a few hours before the accident. But what if Dave was there rather than Kirk?
(my thoughts)
Well, he'd probably be shite-faced drunk and therefore not one that the others would want to be around, so they would have let him stay where he was. The accident happens, and James, Lars and Cliff survive...but not Dave. There ends all the potential of both Metallica and Megadeth - and opens the door for... Kirk-wah-pedal-Hammett!

On another topic that people aren't fond of...St. Anger.
The one Metallica album everyone (but me, it seems) generally hates. But what if Mustaine had...?
Well, he never would have had the experiences that he had in Megadeth, and therefore would never have become a Christian and probably still the raging alcoholic. He probably would have talked James out of going to rehab, which would have resulted in his death. Or, if Dave went with James to rehab, he would have left Lars and the bassist (Cliff or Jason) behind to record the next album. Well, in such a condition, I doubt not that the band would have broken up, ending the era of metal-dominance by Metallica and boosting Slayer and Anthrax into the public music scene.

Just some things to consider...

I dislike these "what if" topics, they seem pretty pointless and even annoying, so many "what ifs" all over the place - what if Cliff Burton never died, what if Fish never left Marillion, what if Max never left Sepultura, what if Kevfin moore never left DT, what if Syd never messed up his brain with LSD and continued to make music with Pink Floyd, what if Gabriel and Hacket never left Genesis and the examples go on and on...

As for your "what if", I don't think things would have worked out with Mustaine and Metallica, because Dave and James would have driven each other insane, they have 2 giant egos and 2 strong personalities and a band with such situations implodes sooner or later - just look at Deep Purple - Blackmore's conflicts with Ian Gillan, or Pink Floyd - Waters' clash with Gilmour and the examples could go on...

Written by Doc G. on 26.10.2009 at 15:29

Written by Hermann Langke on 26.10.2009 at 14:30

Written by Doc G. on 25.10.2009 at 23:49

Written by Valentin B on 25.10.2009 at 23:14

I don't really see why people still go on about how good Mustaine was in Metallica,

Agreed. We got 3 really good timeless albums out of Metallica with Dave not in the band (ok, the material that he wrote obviously would have been in the album either way). If Dave never got kicked out we may not have had Ride The Lightning. My answer? I don't give a shit, people need to move on from the Mustaine vs Metallica thing.

This could easily be discussed in the Metallica vs Megadeth thread.

Mustaine was with Metallica when they were at their foundation level.And Metallica became legendary in the American Metal underground in the '82-'83 period and that was with Dave Mustaine.Without a strong foundation a band cannot become legendary and also Kirk used Dave's solos as a template to work from.

Mustaine was in the band for 6 months, I wish people would stop thinking Metallica begins and ends with Mustaine. There were other contributing members of Metallica as well you know...Dave was not the "foundation" of Metallica, and I think they proved that by the time Master Of Puppets came out...

His solo's were used on the first album, Metallica had two very strong albums afterwards mind you.

In my opinion he is.If you have seen those countless Metallica documentaries you will get the idea.James was too shy to interact with the audience then.And it was Mustaine who did the talking and charged up the crowd in between the songs.Now a band cannot become great without such a personality.A band cannot become great with a wooden foundation.Do you Mustaine shares the writing credit for the title track of 'Ride the Lightning' and also for 'Leper Messiah' in the classic 'Master of Puppets' ,though that has not been officially resolved.

Written by Thrash666 on 26.10.2009 at 18:04

Written by Hermann Langke on 26.10.2009 at 14:35

Written by Thrash666 on 25.10.2009 at 19:11

Need some help here. Why do people think Metallica would have been better if Mustaine was kicked out?? I have never understood this. I love Mustaine (best thrash metal guitarist) but he belongs in Megadeth. I'm glad he got kicked out so we have megadeth to listen to. Metallica and Mustaine would never work out. If he wasnt kicked out, he would have been a few years down the road or the band would have simply broke up. There would be no Lighting or PUPPETS!!!!!! Mustaine being kicked out was one of the best moves in metal history, for the reasons that Metallica is still around (even though the new stuff is terrible, but they still play the classic stuff live) and Megadeth exists. I voted can't say, but really, Metallica is better off without Mustaine.

I agree that there would have been no Megadeth,but also think that the great technicality of Megadeth would also have been added to Metallica.

True. But i have always thought the type of playing of Mustaine never fit in Metallica. Mustaine is pure speed and Metallica is a mixture.

Metallica had just started out then and were amateurish then.But they would have got even better with time had Mustaine been on board.