Written by Irritable Ted on 15.04.2020 at 11:40

I think we are at the point now where someone is looking at it as a technical exercise rather than entertainment. I'm done.

There have been several comments how Floor cannot show her true range etc on the album. That is also a matter of technicality etc, and now it shouldn't be discussed as well?
There is a difference between saying 'not my cup of tea' and saying 'well, anyone could have sung it, so easy and bland'.
There is a difference between a personal opinion and taste and more analytical approach. But often these get intertwined and personal likes and dislikes are equaled with skill and proper music analysis.

Written by justsaying on 15.04.2020 at 10:42


Guitar is the most prominent instrument in the album and there are some insane riffs

whaaaaaaat. what have you been listening to my friend? I think you played Wishmaster instead of Human.

Written by The Melting Snow on 15.04.2020 at 17:17

whaaaaaaat. what have you been listening to my friend? I think you played Wishmaster instead of Human.

Written by JoHn Doe on 15.04.2020 at 17:38

Listen the whole album. There are no guitar solos as such, true, but which instrument one hears the most throughout? Yep. the guitar. Despite there are other elements, strings, other instruments, choir parts etc, the guitar does come through.

Written by Irritable Ted on 15.04.2020 at 17:36

Shhhhh! I'm in their house now....just looking in the CD player..... it's a bootleg of..... After Forever self titled...that explains everything......oh no! They're coming back....oh my goodness..... it's someone dressed as Captain Jack sparrow

Please, feel free to disagree, but keep it civil and on the topic.

Today I listened to the album again after several days, and after reading all the comments here, and to my surprise ... I found it even better than during the first listening.
I still haven't given it all the attention that the second part deserves, I have focused mainly on disc 1: but there are several themes from the first part that reappear during the instrumental.
Obviously, the album doesn't reach the level of Once, Wishmaster or Oceanborn, but I think it's incredible how low its score is here. I honestly don't know how it is considered worse than Dark Passion Play, for me the worst Nightwish album by far.
Although perhaps the one who is wrong is me, given the general opinion . However, I am enjoying it very much .

To Nifheim:
On other sites, and e.g. on Reddit, the discussions are way more on the positive.

I get the feeling that some were expecting Wishmaster II or something - e.g. here the reviewer is disappointed that Floor doesn't do hc belting in Shoemaker, although she does it in Music, Noise, Pan, How's the Heart, Tribal....And it seems that's why he didn't appreciate Shoemaker too much.

Another common complaint seems to be that not enough guitar and the reason might be that there is no guitar solo, since, as a whole, the guitar is the most prominent instrument on the album, the one one hears the most, in some very hard, pronounced riffs etc.

Because it's not all just belting and high operatic, Floor is underused - I mean, what? For some, it's not heavy enough, so it's Disney and bad and bland. Just an impression I'm getting from the comments.
With some, I really get the feeling it's not what they expected and thus it's bad. Not like, ok, new Nightwish, what are we getting this time around when one listens more openly, without a pretext.

Written by Litvin on 13.04.2020 at 06:37

It is definetly sounds better than previous album, it is more metal and it is more Nightwish.
They are also seems to get best from Floors vocal on this one, what else would you expect form the modern Nightwish?
Yeah there is no guitar solos on the album - however I can not remember they made any good solo since Wishmaster.
Are you expecting another Wishmaster? - forget about it.

(c) Jesus

All I want is another decent symphonic metal album from Nightwish at this point, not another Wishmaster (I like all Nightwish albums except for this one and the previous).
And to prove you wrong, I can name you a song from each album since Wishmaster with decent solos: Beauty and the Beast, Ghost Love Score, 7 Days to the Wolves, Rest Calm and hell even Shudder Before the Beautiful.

Just gave this another chance and it's undeserving. Made me think of other bands, artists and albums and this is never a good thing. If I want to listen to pipes and whistles and celtic influenced music, I can listen to more interesting things (i.e. Lorena McKennitt comes to mind). CD 2 is passable.
Only two songs are worth relistening - Noise and Pan, so a rating of 5 is too generous, but I'll leave it at that.

I can see here that if an artist commits the deadly sin of not releasing an old school-brutal-aggressive-5 microseconded hammered on led solos doubled pedal-10 tons heavied riffs-extreme-dark album, they are as dumb as fuck. It requires a lot of sensitivity to appreciate not only this work, but all Nightwish discography. This one surely is one of their best efforts: wonderful vocal lines, very beautiful melodies, profoundly meaningful lyrics and excellent instrumental. Nightwish was never meant to sound purely metal, if you'd been following their history, you'd realize that. Of course their overall sound very much suggests they've been proposing to do something metal mix-like, but their essence is not that, or at least not only. If you're thirsty for some kind of heavy sound metal you should just give them up instead of discrediting them.

Written by [user id=208843] on 16.04.2020 at 12:49

I can see here that if an artist commits the deadly sin of not releasing an old school-brutal-aggressive-5 microseconded hammered on led solos doubled pedal-10 tons heavied riffs-extreme-dark album, they are as dumb as fuck. It requires a lot of sensitivity to appreciate not only this work, but all Nightwish discography. This one surely is one of their best efforts: wonderful vocal lines, very beautiful melodies, profoundly meaningful lyrics and excellent instrumental. Nightwish was never meant to sound purely metal, if you'd been following their history, you'd realize that. Of course their overall sound very much suggests they've been proposing to do something metal mix-like, but their essence is not that, or at least not only. If you're thirsty for some kind of heavy sound metal you should just give them up instead of discrediting them.

So all the remarks/critiques that have been given on this page all boil down to "not enough riffwork" on the album... Come on that's a bit shortsighted, isn't it?

Sure. Believe what you want, but as I see it, that's just the tip of the iceberg. There are people who wanted a bit more that metal feel like on some of the other Nightwish albums (valid opinion, I might add). But there have also been numerous remarks about a lot of other stuff too.

Lyrics have been mentioned as well as song structure, vocals, songwriting, themes and ideas, Symphonic elements,...

Let me give you my view on the things you mentioned:

- "Wonderful vocal lines": Can't say I feel the same way, overall it sounds pretty run of the mill imo.
- "Beautiful melodies": Yes, there are some solid melodies sprankled throughout the album, but none that feel really as memorable as some of the previous Nightwish records.
- "Profoundly meaningful lyrics": Here, I'm going to disagree. Is there meaning behind them? Sure, but its far from Tuomas' best work. It's often really on the nose and I think he has been a lot more subtle in the past. A style which I much prefer.
- "Excellent instrumental": Again for me, not that memorable. Just like with the melodies, there are some good moments, but not enough for me.

And Nightwish was never purely metal? Most people agree to that. There's a reason why they are sometimes called a Euro flower power metal band... So yeah, I don't think that people expect the most aggressive, hard-hitting metal record of the year. That's like expecting the same thing from Sonata Arctica, Epica or Amaranthe,...

To conclude... there is no such thing as the deadly sin you were talking about. An album can do whatever it likes. The only deadly sin an album can make, is that it can't captivate the listener enough (as is being expressed by a lot of people on here). That's my point of view of course. You can have yours.

I am now convinced that this album was just what the website's forum needed. Thank you, Nightwish!

Some of the lyrics are better than others, but they are surprisingly complex, full with references. Moreover, I noticed, that one has to alike read them all, not just one song, but in the context of the whole album.

Tuomas plans crosswords with her wife on their free time. And I mean for Finnish papers, so not just for their fun.

Let's take Pan, referring most likely to the Greek god Pan (or then to a certain European poem, and I've really come across opinions thinking it referring to Peter Pan....Oh dear).
There is at least:
Keystone Earth: Stephen King and Dark Tower series
There and Back: Tolkien
Tir Na Nog: Celtic Otherworld
Something wicked....:Macbeth
winds will be named: name of the wind by Patrick Rothfuss
To fallen stars: stardust by Neil Gaiman.
Tales of dust: the book of dust/his dark materials by philip pullman
The sea lady: H G Wells
snow, glass, apples: Neil Gaiman
The Great Escape: Brickhill (non-fiction, movie by the same name) + many other possible meanings/references

Labyrith might be Pan's labyrinth, although there is a good movie by the same name too by Guillermo de Toro,

It's not as bad, not nearly, but sometimes I have a little bit same feeling like when I read The Island of the Day Before by Umberto Eco, having way too many references to ancient mythology, European cultural history and his own books, but, heck, what one can expect from a professor of semiotics/European cultural history (not all his books are so complex, most are very enjoyable, although the Name of the Rose is probably the best known).

Written by HyperDrifter on 16.04.2020 at 11:46

All I want is another decent symphonic metal album from Nightwish at this point, not another Wishmaster (I like all Nightwish albums except for this one and the previous).
And to prove you wrong, I can name you a song from each album since Wishmaster with decent solos: Beauty and the Beast, Ghost Love Score, 7 Days to the Wolves, Rest Calm and hell even Shudder Before the Beautiful.

There are actually short guitar sections, already in Music. That's one of the points where they could go wilder live, or then e.g. in Tribal which also has some insane riffs and clearly a chance for a longer guitar solo live. They do change arrangements for live concerts, sometimes quite a lot.

Imaginaerium was already more complex, experimental. In a way, EFMB was safer, less experimental, but they still went, as a whole, into a more complex direction on my opinion. And this one is way more complex, with atonal features not often heard in pop/rock so it's not surprising if they sound a bit weird. Plus they have a singer who can cover a variety of styles, so the symphonic elements can be more complex than before, whereas e.g. with Tarja just her operatic style brought part of the symphonic vibe to the songs.
Still, musically, this one is musically way closer to Tarja era songs than the previous two albums. Floor just doesn't sing in operatic all the time, only when it makes a difference, and there are more instruments, a bit more celtic/folk vibes and some modern atonality.

Written by justsaying on 17.04.2020 at 00:42

There are actually short guitar sections, already in Music. That's one of the points where they could go wilder live, or then e.g. in Tribal which also has some insane riffs and clearly a chance for a longer guitar solo live. They do change arrangements for live concerts, sometimes quite a lot.

Imaginaerium was already more complex, experimental. In a way, EFMB was safer, less experimental, but they still went, as a whole, into a more complex direction on my opinion. And this one is way more complex, with atonal features not often heard in pop/rock so it's not surprising if they sound a bit weird. Plus they have a singer who can cover a variety of styles, so the symphonic elements can be more complex than before, whereas e.g. with Tarja just her operatic style brought part of the symphonic vibe to the songs.
Still, musically, this one is musically way closer to Tarja era songs than the previous two albums. Floor just doesn't sing in operatic all the time, only when it makes a difference, and there are more instruments, a bit more celtic/folk vibes and some modern atonality.

justsaying, I respect your opinion, you have said enough but don't waste your time anymore (it seems like spam). rating 6,8 tells it all. analysis is useless if the general feeling is bad. certainly this album is not pure sh*t but we all have heard much better music by NW in the past. even the recent 2 albums that I do not listen to too often are much better than this.

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rating 6,8 tells it all. analysis is useless if the general feeling is bad.

Sorry, but that isn´t an argument, it´s an ad populum fallacy: that most people thinks in a certain way doesn´t make their opinion correct.
On the other hand, I agree that it already looks like spam.

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Written by Nifheim on 17.04.2020 at 18:31

rating 6,8 tells it all. analysis is useless if the general feeling is bad.

Sorry, but that isn´t an argument, it´s an ad populum fallacy: that most people thinks in a certain way doesn´t make their opinion correct.
On the other hand, I agree that it already looks like spam.

so you think 180 metalheads rating here this record do not have their own opinions and these opinions (in average) are biased and have no real value?

Written by IcePickLodger on 17.04.2020 at 22:23

so you think 180 metalheads rating here this record do not have their own opinions and these opinions (in average) are biased and have no real value?

I'm just saying that the argument "this is a bad (or good, or mediocre) album because X number of people think so" is not a valid reason to hold an opinion on it. In fact, I repeat, this is one of the fallacies of reasoning.
I'm only "attacking" the reason you gave to support your opinion on the album, NOT your opinion or that of the other 179 users (with the vast majority, on the other hand, I disagree).
How many times do you find that discs, which to many seem like masterpieces, and to one they seem mediocre (or vice versa)?

I just realized I wrote "justsaying". I think my other identity has just been revealed.

Written by IcePickLodger on 17.04.2020 at 22:23

so you think 180 metalheads rating here this record do not have their own opinions and these opinions (in average) are biased and have no real value?

An opinion, by definition, is subjective. It's just someone's view about something. No opinion has real, objective value.

Written by JoHn Doe on 14.04.2020 at 01:39

you are right, my bad, I don't know what I was thinking...

Hahaha

Written by IBlackened on 18.04.2020 at 07:41

Written by IcePickLodger on 17.04.2020 at 22:23

so you think 180 metalheads rating here this record do not have their own opinions and these opinions (in average) are biased and have no real value?

An opinion, by definition, is subjective. It's just someone's view about something. No opinion has real, objective value.

yes, no single opinion has a real value...but all opinions together (on average), especially when there is a sufficient quantity (now we can discuss if 180 is enough or we will wait until 500), certainly have. if you don't agree then tell me how any objectivity is created

Written by IcePickLodger on 18.04.2020 at 11:05

yes, no single opinion has a real value...but all opinions together (on average), especially when there is a sufficient quantity (now we can discuss if 180 is enough or we will wait until 500), certainly have. if you don't agree then tell me how any objectivity is created

Does opinion, ad populum, make things true or false? According to polls, around 70% of people believe in some kind of supernatural being one could call God - does this make God objectively an existing thing?
So for me, I'd like to know more about the reasoning behind the opinion and a number.

Objectivity can be made e.g. with proper music analysis, going beyond personal taste and liking. Dwelling more into transmissions, keys used, the rhythm patterns, variety in sound, chords and their variations etc and then even put it all in respect of the typical features of a music genre and see whether a piece follows them or diverts from them etc.

Let's take an example. many say that Floor is underused on the album and wasted in Nightwish. However, if we check the actual singing styles, this is probably the most diversed album she has ever made.
There is growlier sound of ReVamp era in Tribal. There is high operatic e.g. in Noise, Shoemaker and even more pronounced than in many After Forever albums. There is strong belting of ReVamp, EFMB etc. There is alike low operatic I think I haven't heard from her, not in a more rock/heavy album at the end of Pan, with the choir.
On top, there is melismatic style in Music highly demanding singing style - especially with those interval jumps she commits with complete precision - she has never recorded before. There is poppish style, lots of mixing e.g. in How's the Heart that also has rhytmically demanding syncope pattern to sing. There is descending chromatic scale in Pan, alike not easy - try to repeat it.
So, please, tell me how are her skills wasted in the most complex album she has ever sung, singing-wise? Because it's not just belting, with parts of operatic and fry growling in between? And remember, Tarja used only classical style which is not even pure operatic to be precise. She did it well, not contradicting that one and still think some of the earlier songs sound better with her, written for her tone and singing style.

This is metal forum and checking some other reviews etc it seems many here prefer a harder sound, black metal, trash metal etc (something I've never found appealing because despite good riffs, musicianship etc the melody is lost under too much growling and fry sound which I don't mind if it's there to make a point, but if all is that same sound, it gets boring and a change in riffs and drumming (not always even a change in key for 3-4 songs in a row) doesn't change that for me and besides too much of that will make just angry, frustrated, annoyed, feeling at the edge and wanting to hit something - not because I necessarily even think the music is bad but the sound itself just brings in those emotions in me). LIke the Kvaen album, that got rated higher, is, in overall, boring for me. It's the same sound the whole way through, for me. Same singing style, almost identical riffs etc, very little bigger variation between songs.

And sorry, if it seems like spamming, but I still haven't gotten answers to some of the questions I keep on asking.

Written by justsaying on 18.04.2020 at 12:40

This is metal forum and checking some other reviews etc it seems many here prefer a harder sound, black metal, trash metal etc

People here prefer everything. Half of the users complain because only "melodic crap" makes it to the top-20 and the other half cannot understand what it is that so many people love about all this death/doom/sludge/black nonsense. Go figure. I just think we are a diverse community and we all have different tastes.

But even if what you said was true (that many here prefer a harder sound), it really has nothing to do with the fact that the general consensus for this album is that it's not that good. Other Nightwish releases have very high ratings here and it's not like these releases were the epitome of heaviness.

I was making a long post but gave up...

I just wish people that enjoy this album do not take personal offense when they see others dislike this album and do not throw insults or pick on at those users. That's all.

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But even if what you said was true (that many here prefer a harder sound), it really has nothing to do with the fact that the general consensus for this album is that it's not that good. Other Nightwish releases have very high ratings here and it's not like these releases were the epitome of heaviness.

Written by justsaying on 18.04.2020 at 12:40

On your opinion, what makes this on bad? Which musical features? And in more detail than e.g. bland singing or why do you think the singing is bland (if that's your opinion)?

Written by justsaying on 18.04.2020 at 14:33

On your opinion, what makes this on bad? Which musical features? And in more detail than e.g. bland singing or why do you think the singing is bland (if that's your opinion)?

I never said it was bad, I have not expressed any opinion on the album either here or on the review thread. I just commented on what you said about people here preferring a "harder sound".

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On your opinion, what makes this on bad? Which musical features? And in more detail than e.g. bland singing or why do you think the singing is bland (if that's your opinion)?

IMHO Floor's singing is not a problem. the problem is low quality of songs in general - forgettable, uninspired melodies, not catchy, choruses are not bombastic enough...I can't tell it better, just boring. and I really tried to get into it as I am their longtime fan. but after 7-8 listens I can honestly say Noise is the best song on the album. I wished it would be one of those weaker tracks on the album when the single was released. unfortunately it is not. but never mind, each band has its ups and downs, so for me this is their down.

This album is good. Period.

Written by IcePickLodger on 18.04.2020 at 11:05

yes, no single opinion has a real value...but all opinions together (on average), especially when there is a sufficient quantity (now we can discuss if 180 is enough or we will wait until 500), certainly have. if you don't agree then tell me how any objectivity is created

I know I have nothing to tell about the album (haven't heard it yet) but I had a similar argument with a friend about objectiveness... The question is, can there be something objective when it comes to art? You can tell if something is difficult to play/draw/sing objectively because you can see how many people can do the same thing and how hard each one tried. You can tell if a painting is "correctly" drawn objectively (shadows, colours, analogies etc). You can tell if a singer sings correctly objectively (no mistakes etc). But you can't tell if a drawing is nice, if a voice is nice or if a composition is good objectively. There's no objective/official "standard", there's no "rule" to compare your emotions with. It's what you feel by watching a painting or listening to a song. And if the majority doesn't feel anything by watching a painting (and they have every right not to!) doesn't mean that the painting has no value or that it's bad. It has a value on its own.
I think we can talk about objectiveness to stuff that can be measured. Feelings isn't one of them imho.
Unless we take music as a product.
Apologies for the "intrusion".