Is there anything like musical integrity/honesty ? Do you believe in such thing ?

I think there is, there are musicians who sacrifice their style for the sake of the musical brands which sell more, actually nothing bad about selling more, but you know what I mean by that, like most of the goth metal albums, on the other hand there are musicians who sacrifice their music by too much musical showmanship, like those guitar shredding lovers, technical metal albums which hold the least of aesthetic value, so that they lose the musical integrity/honesty in their music. What do you think ?

BTW, please don't respond back like "this is stupid topic", I'd love to know the reasons whether they're in support of or opposing what I asked.

Well, I guess everything depends of what you consider honesty.
I consider more honest those who don't rely on the sales of their music but "sacrifice" the aesthetic value. But I think talking about what is or is not aesthetic is a totally partial appreciation.

This topic is stupid. OP is gay.

Yeah, well I don't have much of an opinion on musical integrity. I listen to dozens of artists that are either considered sell-outs, or are extremely commercial in the first place. It really doesn't matter at all to me, as long as I like the music.
But I see plenty of people around complaining about bands going softer, commercial, etc. In Flames comes to mind first, but their problem is the continuous decline in quality, and that's what angers people. I'm sure some examples will be found though.

Yeah, in fact those people who say "oh, they are sell-outs, let's blame them" are kind of hypocritical. I mean, if you like them, you should be happy that they could make profit while making stuff YOU enjoy.
But as Ilham said, that shouldn't have to go hand-in-hand with musical decadence.

That's what I meant, some musically decade by insisting too much on commercial side and also using too much techniques for their pieces.

Best example of musical honesty in the history of metal music: Rush 2112. If you don't know the story behind the making of that album....well you should

Written by AnnaNidstaang on 16.08.2014 at 14:37

Yeah, in fact those people who say "oh, they are sell-outs, let's blame them" are kind of hypocritical. I mean, if you like them, you should be happy that they could make profit while making stuff YOU enjoy.

Eh, not really, most of the time when people blame "sellouts" they blame them because the quality of the music goes from something interesting or worth hearing to shit and predictable. People are not happy cause they go from making something enjoyable to something usually less enjoyable, for a large number of the fans anyways.

Written by angel. on 16.08.2014 at 11:13

there are musicians who sacrifice their music by too much musical showmanship, like those guitar shredding lovers, technical metal albums which hold the least of aesthetic value, so that they lose the musical honesty in their music. What do you think ?

I think this is a total BS comment (and don't take it as a personal attack). I don't really know your tastes but by the sounds of it you're just considering stuff you don't like as being musically dishonest somehow.

Music,
alfa : sell out and be rich, have shity side project but what you like and have decent life
bravo: don't sell out and be like junie no money, home, food,
I don't see Charlie option here

but anyway, old days good music was pop music, old metal as pop music as pop - popular , nowadays pop is like I dunno , not metal, not oldies , not blues, nothing ever and , well club scene, one, few beers maybe chick after , and some dollars all you made

Written by Mattybu on 16.08.2014 at 17:40

Written by AnnaNidstaang on 16.08.2014 at 14:37

Yeah, in fact those people who say "oh, they are sell-outs, let's blame them" are kind of hypocritical. I mean, if you like them, you should be happy that they could make profit while making stuff YOU enjoy.

Eh, not really, most of the time when people blame "sellouts" they blame them because the quality of the music goes from something interesting or worth hearing to shit and predictable. People are not happy cause they go from making something enjoyable to something usually less enjoyable, for a large number of the fans anyways.

That's what I said on the second part of the post you quoted, mate.

Quote:

Written by AnnaNidstaang on 16.08.2014 at 17:59

most of the time when people blame "sellouts" they blame them because the quality of the music goes from something interesting or worth hearing to shit and predictable. People are not happy cause they go from making something enjoyable to something usually less enjoyable, for a large number of the fans anyways.

That's what I said on the second part of the post you quoted, mate.

Ah sorry, I thought by "decadence" you were referring to technical stuff. Usually sellout bands or bands that are considered as such change to much safer/more trendy genres.

I believe in musical integrity - in the sense that a group of musicians or an artist set out with a vision in mind and write music for themselves.

When bands or artists become popular and get signed to a label, sometimes their creativity is somewhat limited because the label executives want to go with what they think will be a successful formula for the band. Sometimes a band or artist will choose to go down that route without the guidance of a label executive.

Regardless, people make music for the reason they want to. If they wanna write a concept album about a dream they had, they do it. If they wanna try their hand at out-wanking Necrophagist, they go for it. Etc. etc. etc. I dunno I might not have understood the point of this topic.

Written by Troy Killjoy on 16.08.2014 at 18:04

I believe in musical integrity - in the sense that a group of musicians or an artist set out with a vision in mind and write music for themselves.

When bands or artists become popular and get signed to a label, sometimes their creativity is somewhat limited because the label executives want to go with what they think will be a successful formula for the band. Sometimes a band or artist will choose to go down that route without the guidance of a label executive.

Regardless, people make music for the reason they want to. If they wanna write a concept album about a dream they had, they do it. If they wanna try their hand at out-wanking Necrophagist, they go for it. Etc. etc. etc. I dunno I might not have understood the point of this topic.

You just described the making of 2112 perfectly son, well done

Written by tea[m]ster on 16.08.2014 at 18:17
You just described the making of 2112 perfectly son, well done

Bruce Springsteen also comes to mind when discussing musical integrity. And Gravity X by Truckfighters. And Pink Floyd. And Darkthrone. And a lot of other things, but ya.

Those albums with stories behind them, like when the band sells virtually everything they have to pay for studio time and they use a bunch of old thrifty equipment just to get the music from paper to hard drive. It adds charm on top of what usually turns out to be a defining album. It's those kinds of albums that usually lead to financial success (or at least a growth in popularity) and that's when you start running into the whole "they can't make this album again" and they can't because the circumstances are completely different and now they want to record based on what they have now. It's a whole thing it's difficult to narrow my thoughts on this without over-explaining so this is as good as it's gonna get.

Written by Troy Killjoy on 16.08.2014 at 18:24

it's difficult to narrow my thoughts on this without over-explaining so this is as good as it's gonna get.

Yep, really good stuff sir. I agree, stories behind albums, albums that people love, really hit home in the heart. That's why it gets personal.

With reading your posts, I must change the topic title.

Written by Mattybu on 16.08.2014 at 17:49

I think this is a total BS comment (and don't take it as a personal attack). I don't really know your tastes but by the sounds of it you're just considering stuff you don't like as being musically dishonest somehow.

No there are bands which I don't get into them but I'd never say that they've lost their integrity/honesty, for the sake of attracting wider range of fans, perhaps Tool is a good example in this sense, I don't like their music, still they have their integrity.

Written by Troy Killjoy on 16.08.2014 at 18:04

I believe in musical integrity - in the sense that a group of musicians or an artist set out with a vision in mind and write music for themselves.

When bands or artists become popular and get signed to a label, sometimes their creativity is somewhat limited because the label executives want to go with what they think will be a successful formula for the band. Sometimes a band or artist will choose to go down that route without the guidance of a label executive.

Regardless, people make music for the reason they want to. If they wanna write a concept album about a dream they had, they do it. If they wanna try their hand at out-wanking Necrophagist, they go for it. Etc. etc. etc. I dunno I might not have understood the point of this topic.

you actually understood the point of this topic very well.

Troy has pretty much hit the nail on the head.

Yup, Troy basically described my thoughts on this.

Generally speaking, I don't like when bands soften their sound or become more "commercial".
First, because I prefer my Metal more extreme, so softer music has less chance to fit my tastes. But I can't blame bands to change if it's what they want.
Second, and that's where there is a problem, I noticed throughout the years that when bands change too much they often end up sucking.

Someone mentioned Rush in this thread. I know that some people criticised them in the 80's, when they became more "electronic" and keyboard-oriented. I never had a problem with it, because I think albums like "Power Windows" and "Hold Your Fire" are awesome. It wasn't bad change.
On the other Hand, I like Darkthrone's Peaceville trilogy but I dislike the move they made towards crust punk because I think they suck now.

For me, it all depends on the result. Lots of people confuse change and evolution and call any change evolution. It can be called evolution only if it gets better or at least maintains the same level of quality. Some changes are a musical devolution.

Changes can be a welcome thing, bringing something new and unique and creating diversity in a band's discography. I like when albums have their own feel and personality. But the overall quality must be maintained, if you want it to work.

As for "selling out", it is all a matter of attitude. Only because a band starts to sell much better doesn't mean they sold out. Slayer and Nile, for example, are big now but they never released sellout albums. They became popular while still sticking to their style.
However, when bands release albums that are obviously targeted at a mainstream audience, we can say that they sold out. For example, "Cold Lake" was a sellout album.

Everyone's agreeing with me and I don't even remember posting here. Was pretty high. But re-reading my comments, I must say I agree with myself as well.

Good job Troy.

As long as you don't pretend to be something you aren't, you are being having musically integrity. Basically, don't steal people's shit and claims it's yours, and if you changed something so it will make you more money or whatnot, admit to doing such. Take Korn, when they cut the original bridge from "Freak on Leash" so they could get it on the radio, at least they admit that's why they did it.

I've heard riffs in A7X songs that are exactly the same riffs in a Death, SOD, and Municipal Waste song.
I don't recall what songs but it was pretty interesting.
Also Total Death by Kreator sounds a lot like Exodus' Strike of The Beast
And the opening of Sacred Reich's Death Squad and Sodom's Agent Orange sound almost if not the same.
Maybe they need to be checked out on "musical integrity"
Anyways bands do what they want to do.
But stealing, that's not cool man.

Written by Totenlieder on 10.09.2014 at 07:02

I've heard riffs in A7X songs that are exactly the same riffs in a Death, SOD, and Municipal Waste song.
I don't recall what songs but it was pretty interesting.
Also Total Death by Kreator sounds a lot like Exodus' Strike of The Beast
And the opening of Sacred Reich's Death Squad and Sodom's Agent Orange sound almost if not the same.
Maybe they need to be checked out on "musical integrity"
Anyways bands do what they want to do.
But stealing, that's not cool man.

I think that's not stealing, after all they learned something from other musicians

Written by angel. on 10.09.2014 at 10:23

Written by Totenlieder on 10.09.2014 at 07:02

I've heard riffs in A7X songs that are exactly the same riffs in a Death, SOD, and Municipal Waste song.
I don't recall what songs but it was pretty interesting.
Also Total Death by Kreator sounds a lot like Exodus' Strike of The Beast
And the opening of Sacred Reich's Death Squad and Sodom's Agent Orange sound almost if not the same.
Maybe they need to be checked out on "musical integrity"
Anyways bands do what they want to do.
But stealing, that's not cool man.

I think that's not stealing, after all they learned something from other musicians

I guess it depends on how complex the riff and how critical it is to the song. Stealing some generic chug riffs doesn't mean much, stealing the riff from "Iron Man" would be something deplorable unless it's played in a truly new way.

Written by Ganondox on 10.09.2014 at 11:27

unless it's played in a truly new way.

I don't even think that it must be played truly in a new way, because there are some licks or riffs that are simply routine in rock or metal and most of these licks are repeated, and learned from different areas, like some comes from jazz, blues or even classical music, musicians may learn these known licks or riffs and construct the whole idea of their music by help of them but it always doesn't turn out the same songs which were the first ones that contained these licks or riffs.

But Iron Man is a taken riff, so if someone took that riff in their song (unless it was played in a whole new matter or something) that band would be plagiarizing

Written by angel. on 10.09.2014 at 11:47

Written by Ganondox on 10.09.2014 at 11:27

unless it's played in a truly new way.

I don't even think that it must be played truly in a new way, because there are some licks or riffs that are simply routine in rock or metal and most of these licks are repeated, and learned from different areas, like some comes from jazz, blues or even classical music, musicians may learn these known licks or riffs and construct the whole idea of their music by help of them but it always doesn't turn out the same songs which were the first ones that contained these licks or riffs.

Except Iron Man's main riff is not one of those riffs.

The stealing comment was sort of a joke,
But its still not cool man.
Anyways they weren't just generic riffs.
I'll have to find the songs.