Written by El Vikingo on 26.09.2007 at 05:48

Anybody who says, "ALL X is caused by Y" is full of it. Do your homework. The world is more complicated than that.

Also, it's interesting that you mention Sri Lanka beings that the conflict there is strictly between Hindus and Buddhists. It is easy for a Hindu to be a suicide bomber. To think that the idea that they will be reincarnated into a higher caste if they live a 'holy, holy, holy' life (which could include killing for one's religion) is not a good motivation for killing is to be pretty niave. Sure, there are other reasons, but that is certainly an extra incentive AND it cheapens life.

Alright, you give me one example of a war in which power struggles has no significant part.

The Sri Lankan conflict is NOT strictly between Hindus and Buddhists. There are many Muslims and many Christians there too. Have you ever been to Sri Lanka, or known someone devastated by the war there? Well, I have been there, and one of my best friends is a Tamil whose town has been razed to shreds. He doesn't hate the Sinhalese because they're Buddhists, he hates them because their army forced his parents to flee their homeland!

As for it being easy for a Hindu to be a suicide bomber, learn about a religion before you say something stupid like that. I'm a Hindu, but that doesn't make it easy for me to be a suicide bomber. Members of my [extended] family were killed in the Mumbai Bomb Blasts last year, yet I don't want to go and blow myself up in a Lashkar-e-Toiba camp in Pakistan-Occupied Kashmir. No line of any Hindu scripture says that you attain moksha (freedom from the cycle of reincarnation, which is the ultimate goal of all Hindus!) by blowing yourself up. No person fulfills their dharma (earthly duty, in this context) by killing themselves. Also, Hinduism does not say that life should be taken cheaply either. Find me one piece of writing in the Bhagavad Gita, or the Vedas, or the Upanishads, that say that suicide is a valid way of waging dharmayuddha (the war to uphold dharma, which in this context means knowledge and goodness), and I'll stop believing in it.

I never said that there was a part of Hinduism that explicitly says that it is OK to be a suicide bomber, all I was saying was that belief in an afterlife cheapens this life and makes it easier to kill. You really need to quit pretending that I said things that I haven't. It makes communicating with you a chore.

"Power struggle" is a pretty meaningless phrase. You could literally interpret any war to be a "power struggle" because that is sort of what war is.

Written by El Vikingo on 26.09.2007 at 22:47

I never said that there was a part of Hinduism that explicitly says that it is OK to be a suicide bomber, all I was saying was that belief in an afterlife cheapens this life and makes it easier to kill. You really need to quit pretending that I said things that I haven't. It makes communicating with you a chore.

"Power struggle" is a pretty meaningless phrase. You could literally interpret any war to be a "power struggle" because that is sort of what war is.

Well, Hinduism was a poor example to use then, wasn't it! Stop the goalpost shifting, or just explain yourself better in your posts, and the communication problems won't arise.

With your last sentence, that's what I've been getting at for the past few posts, though I would extend the "war = power struggle" thing to "power struggle leads to war, which is another form of power struggle."

When you start a war, you either want something you don't have (gold, territory, oil, etc.), or you hate your opposition because they are not like you (different religion, skin tone, language, etc.) Many wars were led in the name of god, any god, it's irrelevant which one. IMO religion was often used as a mask for something else, I've seen it in my country, present and former. The problem for many people wasn't the fact that someone was Orthodox, Catholic or Muslim, the problem was, and still is, as Judas said, that they destroyed each other's homes, families, lives. Bottom line is that it's hatred and envy lead people to war, and religion is just used as an excuse.

enough prover that relgion causes war, or make it worse:
WW II: the jews... they died because they believed in another inviseble figure
Northern Island and 80 years of war in europe: catholics and revormed (or whatever they call themselve)
funny thing: they killed eachother eventhough they kissed thesame inviseble guy's ass
terrorism: how many times they "confuse" terrorists with muslims?

Theory: Religion Causes War
Theory: Nationalism Causes War
Theory: Economics Causes War
Theory: Geography Causes War
Theory: Ideology Causes War
Theory: Natural Resources Causes War
Theory: Fear Causes War

Oh and by the way, these are "facts" not "theories." And getting rid of one of them isn't going to end war or lower the body count substantially.

Unfortunately I dont have the time to read the entire topic, so Im sorry if this has been discussed/said earlier.

I dont think religion causes war. Humans are just waiting for a reason to annihilate one another and those in power mostly seem to exploit peoples passion for their beliefs and willingness to destroy those who are different from them to push their own agendas. I really think Winter Deaths post above mine nails this topic shut. Damn near everything causes war.

I think an episode of South Park had some pretty interesting commentary on the subject, also.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_God_Go_XII

Written by [user id=16136] on 11.10.2007 at 01:49

Theory: Religion Causes War
Theory: Nationalism Causes War
Theory: Economics Causes War
Theory: Geography Causes War
Theory: Ideology Causes War
Theory: Natural Resources Causes War
Theory: Fear Causes War

Oh and by the way, these are "facts" not "theories." And getting rid of one of them isn't going to end war or lower the body count substantially.

No, people cause war. I don't understand why people can't get that through their heads. If any number of these things were left alone, they themselves would not get up and start a war, it takes a person to use them as reasons to cause war. Simple as that.

Written by Clintagräm on 11.10.2007 at 05:15

Written by [user id=16136] on 11.10.2007 at 01:49

Theory: Religion Causes War
Theory: Nationalism Causes War
Theory: Economics Causes War
Theory: Geography Causes War
Theory: Ideology Causes War
Theory: Natural Resources Causes War
Theory: Fear Causes War

Oh and by the way, these are "facts" not "theories." And getting rid of one of them isn't going to end war or lower the body count substantially.

No, people cause war. I don't understand why people can't get that through their heads. If any number of these things were left alone, they themselves would not get up and start a war, it takes a person to use them as reasons to cause war. Simple as that.

You are very astute in your observation that people cause war. Of course I'm being sarcastic because you are stating the obvious. The topic of this thread pertains to why people go to war, and more specifically if religion is the primary reason for that. People don't just do something (like start a war) because they feel like it. People rationalize things. They find reasons for their actions.

You are right though, none of those items I listed would get up at start a war themselves. But then again I hoped you would have realized that "Religion causes war" should be interpreted as "religion causes people to cause war." The implication is unmistakable but we have that cleared up now. I was just trying to stay in step with this threads creator, and I think everyone has understood the "blank causes blank" statement up until this point.

Written by [user id=16136] on 11.10.2007 at 05:57

Written by Clintagräm on 11.10.2007 at 05:15

Written by [user id=16136] on 11.10.2007 at 01:49

Theory: Religion Causes War
Theory: Nationalism Causes War
Theory: Economics Causes War
Theory: Geography Causes War
Theory: Ideology Causes War
Theory: Natural Resources Causes War
Theory: Fear Causes War

Oh and by the way, these are "facts" not "theories." And getting rid of one of them isn't going to end war or lower the body count substantially.

No, people cause war. I don't understand why people can't get that through their heads. If any number of these things were left alone, they themselves would not get up and start a war, it takes a person to use them as reasons to cause war. Simple as that.

You are very astute in your observation that people cause war. Of course I'm being sarcastic because you are stating the obvious. Even the trees know that people cause war, so right now you are on par with a tree. The topic of this thread pertains to why people go to war, and more specifically if religion is the primary reason for that. People don't just do something (like start a war) because they feel like it. People rationalize things. They find reasons for their actions.

You are right though, none of those items I listed would get up at start a war themselves. But then again I hoped you would have realized that "Religion causes war" should be interpreted as "religion causes people to cause war." The implication is unmistakable but we have that cleared up now. I was just trying to stay in step with this threads creator, and I think everyone has understood the "blank causes blank" statement up until this point.

Yep. Fortunate for us trees can't cause wars, not that I know of. All I meant was I'm tired of people attacking things blindly and playing the whole blame game. Like I said earlier, it's the same as saying "Guns kill people." It doesn't help any when a shit ton of the Metal community isn't very religion friendly for much of the same reason. I'm not even yea or nay on that subject, it's just when people ignorantly attack things. Just annoying that's all. But I get what you mean.

To better state it, people's actions cause war. I don't see how even using religion as a reason would work, unless that religion actually says "Kill the infidel." or "Kill those people taking our lands." Because I'm pretty sure even if religion didn't exist, people would still find a reason to kill their next door neighbor because one of their lawn nomes is in their yard. It'd be like killing people over the music they like, or because they like violets instead of roses.

But oh well, so it goes on. I just like to debate a bit.

people cause war BECAUSE of religion.
religion is indirectly the cause of war.
without religion I we would live in a better world. then we would have one factor less that causes war.
but you cant make people to stop believing in gods. so we have to wait

Written by Clintagräm on 11.10.2007 at 06:40

Written by [user id=16136] on 11.10.2007 at 05:57

Written by Clintagräm on 11.10.2007 at 05:15

Written by [user id=16136] on 11.10.2007 at 01:49

Theory: Religion Causes War
Theory: Nationalism Causes War
Theory: Economics Causes War
Theory: Geography Causes War
Theory: Ideology Causes War
Theory: Natural Resources Causes War
Theory: Fear Causes War

Oh and by the way, these are "facts" not "theories." And getting rid of one of them isn't going to end war or lower the body count substantially.

No, people cause war. I don't understand why people can't get that through their heads. If any number of these things were left alone, they themselves would not get up and start a war, it takes a person to use them as reasons to cause war. Simple as that.

You are very astute in your observation that people cause war. Of course I'm being sarcastic because you are stating the obvious. Even the trees know that people cause war, so right now you are on par with a tree. The topic of this thread pertains to why people go to war, and more specifically if religion is the primary reason for that. People don't just do something (like start a war) because they feel like it. People rationalize things. They find reasons for their actions.

You are right though, none of those items I listed would get up at start a war themselves. But then again I hoped you would have realized that "Religion causes war" should be interpreted as "religion causes people to cause war." The implication is unmistakable but we have that cleared up now. I was just trying to stay in step with this threads creator, and I think everyone has understood the "blank causes blank" statement up until this point.

Yep. Fortunate for us trees can't cause wars, not that I know of. All I meant was I'm tired of people attacking things blindly and playing the whole blame game. Like I said earlier, it's the same as saying "Guns kill people." It doesn't help any when a shit ton of the Metal community isn't very religion friendly for much of the same reason. I'm not even yea or nay on that subject, it's just when people ignorantly attack things. Just annoying that's all. But I get what you mean.

To better state it, people's actions cause war. I don't see how even using religion as a reason would work, unless that religion actually says "Kill the infidel." or "Kill those people taking our lands." Because I'm pretty sure even if religion didn't exist, people would still find a reason to kill their next door neighbor because one of their lawn nomes is in their yard. It'd be like killing people over the music they like, or because they like violets instead of roses.

But oh well, so it goes on. I just like to debate a bit.

We're pretty much on the same page. Religion can be used for good or bad. It just depends on the person. Getting rid of religion isn't going to make war go away. Thats why I wrote that list. And there does seem to be a lot of blind attacking of religion here without any consideration of other factors that cause war. I'm not a religious person by any stretch of the imagination, but I have enough sense to not beat that horse dead. It's just interesting to try and find out why people do what they do, even if there is no sense in it.

And about the tree comment: I wrote it but then removed it from my original post, because I didn't want to seem overly dickheaded. It would appear you got to my response before I could change it though, so yeah...I'm an asshole.

Men generally make war because they have a lack a philisophical base. With a proper philisophical base men would understand that man has the right to exist for his own sake so long as he does not violate the right of another human being. It is a very simple concept. It is a reason men first formed civilizations or tribes. To secure the continuation for further genrations. Usually violations of basic property rights cause war. "I want what you have and I do not wish to make the effort to produce it myself, therefor ill just take it from you. This may be caused by a single man (ie thug or thief) or a nation or dictator.

It is my opinion that the world in general lacks basic philosophy. It needs a epistimological housecleaning. To wash away decades of marxism and refresh it with lessons learned by Aristotle, Hume, Locke, Jefferson and Ayn Rand.

my last point is that in the 20th century marxism or communism (the anti religion) caused the deaths of over 30 million people.

While I haven't actually read her, I think you'll find that Ayn Rand is generally considered a laughing stock within academia.

Religion is just a very good excuse that people (who usually don't actually believe or follow the religion they claim to be a believer of) use to take advantage of people. People cause wars...religion just seems to be the best excuse they have come up with. In a society with no proof of God, there will always be religion, and there will always be war...it's a remarkable failure of the Flesh.

Written by Anthem on 12.10.2007 at 04:14

my last point is that in the 20th century marxism or communism (the anti religion) caused the deaths of over 30 million people.

Surely American fear of communism played no part in the causes of the wars that lead to the deaths of those 30 million people?
But yeah, USSR failed real hard, however there never was really a truely communist state, just a bunch of totalitarian regimes.

Written by Too many fail. on 17.10.2007 at 16:05

Written by Anthem on 12.10.2007 at 04:14

my last point is that in the 20th century marxism or communism (the anti religion) caused the deaths of over 30 million people.

Surely American fear of communism played no part in the causes of the wars that lead to the deaths of those 30 million people?
But yeah, USSR failed real hard, however there never was really a truely communist state, just a bunch of totalitarian regimes.

No, there wasn't a real communist state. A society where everyone is equal is not a society where e.g. Stalin and Pol Pot were high above everyone and everything else. Dictators are not what communism should be all about.

Well it's been debated enough as it is for me to re-state the obvious...but well, if it wasn't for religion, people would find something else to wage war over, but religion is really a convenient vehicle for it.

However, to say that the world would be a better place without religion - I cannot agree with that. I don't believe in religion and I don't think morality stems from it in any way. I might not like closed-minded and overly zealous religious people and I do not follow their faith. But in spite of all of that, some people draw comfort from their beliefs, and sometimes they do actually stick to those beliefs in thier actions and not only their words - in that case, religion serves a purpose to them, and if it helps them, well...good.

There might be a lot of bad things about religion, but there are also good ones, and to say that the world would be a better place without it is pushing it a bit too far.

I believe that man causes war...
However, the reasons for going to war are quite often religious. So really it depends on your perspective of the situation. But Religion can be see as the main reason for people going to war, but as people we have choices.

Written by Hyvaarin on 15.10.2007 at 10:46

While I haven't actually read her, I think you'll find that Ayn Rand is generally considered a laughing stock within academia.

I know this is off topic, but I'd thought I'd chime in. I have a buddy who is so into Ayn Rand, that he has his whole back tattooed with a picture of Atlas.

Written by Dane Train on 20.10.2007 at 19:11

Written by Hyvaarin on 15.10.2007 at 10:46

While I haven't actually read her, I think you'll find that Ayn Rand is generally considered a laughing stock within academia.

I know this is off topic, but I'd thought I'd chime in. I have a buddy who is so into Ayn Rand, that he has his whole back tattooed with a picture of Atlas.

The tattoo is going a bit too far for my liking.

I like her works, and some of her ideas I like to put in my own life. But it is a really flawed philosophy in my books, in truth it'd probably cause more problems than it solved.

If you want my honest opinion about religion causing wars I think its ultimately rubbish. Its the people who manipulate peoples loyalty to their religion and fear of being persecuted, who start wars because of religion. I don't think any religion has a commandment or verse that promotes war, and if they do why has there not been a continual global war since the formation of this religion? Because people are born then die, culture changes, events happens, ultimately these things lead to war. Religion to me can just be a...catalyst for all this.

Other things besides religion probably play a bigger role. Its been said already but the communist states were hardly conflict free and all lovey-dovey.

But yea, I've just seen religion produce too many good people to jump on the "RELIGION IS BAAD!!!1" bandwagon. Oh, and I'm an Atheist, never thought I'd be defending religion in an argument.

Written by [user id=3574] on 23.10.2007 at 00:04


The tattoo is going a bit too far for my liking.

I like her works, and some of her ideas I like to put in my own life. But it is a really flawed philosophy in my books, in truth it'd probably cause more problems than it solved.

If you want my honest opinion about religion causing wars I think its ultimately rubbish. Its the people who manipulate peoples loyalty to their religion and fear of being persecuted, who start wars because of religion. I don't think any religion has a commandment or verse that promotes war, and if they do why has there not been a continual global war since the formation of this religion? Because people are born then die, culture changes, events happens, ultimately these things lead to war. Religion to me can just be a...catalyst for all this.

Other things besides religion probably play a bigger role. Its been said already but the communist states were hardly conflict free and all lovey-dovey.

But yea, I've just seen religion produce too many good people to jump on the "RELIGION IS BAAD!!!1" bandwagon. Oh, and I'm an Atheist, never thought I'd be defending religion in an argument.

Here is one thing you should ponder. How wars, genocides, killings, prejudices, etc. that are done in the name of Christianity reflective of what Jesus taught?

Written by Dane Train on 24.10.2007 at 21:17


Here is one thing you should ponder. How wars, genocides, killings, prejudices, etc. that are done in the name of Christianity reflective of what Jesus taught?

I'm not quite sure what you mean. They aren't really anything to do with Jesus' teaching are they? They're part of the sort of Christianity people seem to have made up for themselves.

Or were you agreeing with me? Lol, the way you wrote that confused me :p

Written by [user id=3574] on 24.10.2007 at 23:00

I'm not quite sure what you mean. They aren't really anything to do with Jesus' teaching are they? They're part of the sort of Christianity people seem to have made up for themselves.

Or were you agreeing with me? Lol, the way you wrote that confused me :p

That is the question I am getting at. Are these actions really associated with religion, faith and spirituality, or is it something else?

Written by Dane Train on 25.10.2007 at 01:35

Written by [user id=3574] on 24.10.2007 at 23:00

I'm not quite sure what you mean. They aren't really anything to do with Jesus' teaching are they? They're part of the sort of Christianity people seem to have made up for themselves.

Or were you agreeing with me? Lol, the way you wrote that confused me :p

That is the question I am getting at. Are these actions really associated with religion, faith and spirituality, or is it something else?

Obviously it's not really religion. These people are manipulating religion for their own means, so they can have control over uneducated masses and self-aggrandise in other ways. I for one do not think that a so-called 'fundamentalist' or 'fanatic' of any religion can be called a proper adherent. Fundamentalists create barriers that lead to conflict, while religion itself promotes peace.

Written by Judas on 25.10.2007 at 03:33

Written by Dane Train on 25.10.2007 at 01:35

Written by [user id=3574] on 24.10.2007 at 23:00

I'm not quite sure what you mean. They aren't really anything to do with Jesus' teaching are they? They're part of the sort of Christianity people seem to have made up for themselves.

Or were you agreeing with me? Lol, the way you wrote that confused me :p

That is the question I am getting at. Are these actions really associated with religion, faith and spirituality, or is it something else?

Obviously it's not really religion. These people are manipulating religion for their own means, so they can have control over uneducated masses and self-aggrandise in other ways. I for one do not think that a so-called 'fundamentalist' or 'fanatic' of any religion can be called a proper adherent. Fundamentalists create barriers that lead to conflict, while religion itself promotes peace.

I'm not one to start poo but if makes you wonder where some of these people actually get some ideas. Most likely it's not religion, but it makes you wonder when their "holy text" says think like "Worship none but the lord...";"You will rule over many nations, but none will rule over you."; or even when "he" himself kills cities of people.

Of course it is up to people to interpret as they see fit, and either be taken control of or not.

Written by Clintagräm on 25.10.2007 at 03:46

I'm not one to start poo but if makes you wonder where some of these people actually get some ideas. Most likely it's not religion, but it makes you wonder when their "holy text" says think like "Worship none but the lord...";"You will rule over many nations, but none will rule over you."; or even when "he" himself kills cities of people.

Of course it is up to people to interpret as they see fit, and either be taken control of or not.

Many times people who quote things of that nature tend to misinterpret what is really going on in the text.

Written by Dane Train on 25.10.2007 at 04:02

Written by Clintagräm on 25.10.2007 at 03:46

I'm not one to start poo but if makes you wonder where some of these people actually get some ideas. Most likely it's not religion, but it makes you wonder when their "holy text" says think like "Worship none but the lord...";"You will rule over many nations, but none will rule over you."; or even when "he" himself kills cities of people.

Of course it is up to people to interpret as they see fit, and either be taken control of or not.

Many times people who quote things of that nature tend to misinterpret what is really going on in the text.

Indeed, just as I said.

Written by Anthem on 12.10.2007 at 04:14

It is my opinion that the world in general lacks basic philosophy. It needs a epistimological housecleaning. To wash away decades of marxism and refresh it with lessons learned by Aristotle, Hume, Locke, Jefferson and Ayn Rand.

This is what makes us human. The ability to believe what one wants and to ignore or oppose others.
As firmly as you may believe your ideals are right, another will always believe his to be just as valid.

Different opinions causes war. To have different religions is to have different opinions. So yes, religion causes war.