Written by [user id=20536] on 06.02.2012 at 07:22


I don't think you quite understand what I'm saying. I'm saying staff album reviews are supposed to reflect the opinion of the website itself. That's why guest reviews of new albums are delayed and have a disclaimer. I'm saying that it's ironic that the website can give a band a 9.0 and then turn around and say "because the traditional black metal albums that were released just weren't up to scratch compared to what was nominated." (-Marcel) when the site obviously reviewed "traditional black metal albums" and gave them high scores. My comment there had nothing to do with Absu.

But the website's opinion may not be unanimous. An album may prove divisive between staff members just as much as between staff and users. After all, the website's opinion isn't from the one mind but from a collective effort of analyzing new releases. When it comes time for the awards this collective mind needs to negotiate and organise itself to form a set of opinions which allow for the award categories that they've put out for 2011. This isn't easy, I can imagine, and considerable compromises have to be made. There might be an individual within the staff who shares your opinion that there were some good 'traditional' black metal releases in 2011, but in the end a decision needs to be made about what to put into the nominations. This doesn't involve any bias, it involves a collaboration of opinion's to try to come to some sort of agreement as to what goes where in the awards.

The reason as to why they (the staff) get to make these decisions is simply because they run the website. A user (or indeed a number of users) may well be displeased with the final decisions of staff, but their compromises in the awards involve decisions that affect their own opinions just as much as you or I (the users). It is necessary to do this to give the awards some coherency rather than just being a free-for-all of write in votes which would, I think, not only be a mess but also pointless. The ultimate aim, I gather, is in part promote works deemed of quality to the mass metal public. It's to bring music to the attention of those unaware of it. If this is removed the awards serve no purpose beyond allowing complete freedom for each individual to post in their own opinion, nothing new is made available for your listening pleasure. It's all a balance between choosing what are good albums from the year and giving the users something tangible to access in order to increase their awareness of such quality. Let's face it, what they've chosen surely isn't complete garbage right? I mean surely you can expect a modicum of quality in their final decisions? There might well be some work that slips through the gaps, but in general you are pretty much guaranteed of finding something to like in what's presented before you?

The fact of the matter is though that you can still do this, still write in your vote. It isn't denied to you. Your personal opinion, your vote is still as meaningful as it ever would be. Anyone's opinion remains the same. An annual awards collaboration doesn't deny you your opinion, it's your listening experience, your enjoyment of particular music. Nothing can change this except you yourself. And what this awards thing attempts to do is give you the means to do so, to make available to you what are some close competitors to your favourite album of any category to perhaps allow for a discovery of something you didn't realize was even more suited to your personal tastes. This isn't a given, you can't expect such to occur under all circumstances, that's just not possible.

Sorry for the rant but I just can't understand why some people get worked up over the awards. You listen to the music. You enjoy it. Putting particular albums on a pedestal which aren't among your favourites doesn't decrease your listening experience in any way, shape or form.

Written by [user id=20536] on 06.02.2012 at 06:01

Dragged Into Sunlight - Hatred For Mankind.

Is a 2010 release (oops actually it's even from September 25 2009 ) and actually more death metal than black (although one can fight over that)

Written by [user id=20536] on 06.02.2012 at 07:22



I don't think you quite understand what I'm saying. I'm saying staff album reviews are supposed to reflect the opinion of the website itself. That's why guest reviews of new albums are delayed and have a disclaimer. I'm saying that it's ironic that the website can give a band a 9.0 and then turn around and say "because the traditional black metal albums that were released just weren't up to scratch compared to what was nominated." (-Marcel) when the site obviously reviewed "traditional black metal albums" and gave them high scores. My comment there had nothing to do with Absu.

A review is the opinion of 1 (one) staff member whereas the nominations are that of 20+ staff/elites combined.

Written by [user id=20536] on 06.02.2012 at 07:22

I'm saying staff album reviews are supposed to reflect the opinion of the website itself.

Ummm no. The reviews reflect the mind of one reviewer only. That's why you have one positive and one negative review of DT's latest, let's say. If the whole staff stood by the opinion made public in one review, that would mean the whole staff thought The Browning's decent (like in wormdrink's review), or that Van Canto is good (like in my review) or that the newest Insomnium is 9-material (believe that was Demonic Tutor's review). You can see that is clearly not the case.

As for some fine graded albums (you made the point in black metal, same can be said for prog or some others) that didn't get through, you must understand that there are only ten places in the nominations per genre. Some of those releases you mentioned lacked a couple of points to get through. That doesn't mean they aren't good, that means the collective staff's vote gave the edge to other albums. Everyone has different tastes and everyone would like different nominations, but in the end, those albums that had the most points voted by staff/elites got into the circles. The fact that some albums didn't get in means it was a hell of a good year.

Written by [user id=20536] on 06.02.2012 at 06:01

Yeah, lots of good black metal overlooked. Negative Plane - Stained Glass Revelations (this site even gave it a 9.0 in a review, just shows that they don't stand behind their reviews)

Please, stop making yourself look like a moron if you don't even know what happens behind the curtains.
I can easily name all the staffers that had good if not wonderful things to say about that album: Namely: Der, Joe, Troy, Marcel to some extent and myself. Hell... it was one of joe's top five also in my top list. What happened? Even when we gave it high numbers it still didn't manage to get in the final ten.'
That's it.

I was honestly really sad when I saw that Negative Plane and Aaskereia didn't make the cut. We had 9 nominations ready and there was a tie for the last slot and again they didn't make the cut. I was sad, I know that joe was sad... and I dare say that I was as sad as you not seeing Absu here. Difference: I'm not whining nearly as much as you. Don't think that only the users get sad to not see some bands in the nominees. We are more than 20 people discussing this shit... and sometimes the discussions get heated. Like I said before, don't think you are the only one and don't think that every staff/elite member is 100% happy with the nominees. We are not, we just don't end up whining about it.

Written by X-Ray Rod on 06.02.2012 at 15:53

Written by [user id=20536] on 06.02.2012 at 06:01

Yeah, lots of good black metal overlooked. Negative Plane - Stained Glass Revelations (this site even gave it a 9.0 in a review, just shows that they don't stand behind their reviews)

Please, stop making yourself look like a moron if you don't even know what happens behind the curtains.

Well to be fair, he can only make assumptions granted that he can't see behind the curtains. As I said before I'm not familiar with the debate with the black metal category, but his assumption may be a perfectly reasonable one that 'traditional' black metal isn't accounted for given his opinion (at least I think that's his opinion) that the nominees listed are all 'non-traditional' black metal.
He can only base his assumptions on what he sees in the nominee list. But his opinion has obviously led him to make an incorrect assumption. Incorrect though it may be, I think you have to consider the fact that he didn't know what went on behind closed doors. Unless he was informed in some way? I don't know..

Written by R'Vannith on 06.02.2012 at 16:36
Well to be fair, he can only make assumptions granted that he can't see behind the curtains.

I can give you that... But you don't need half a brain to realise than a review is one man's opinion.

Written by X-Ray Rod on 06.02.2012 at 16:40

Written by R'Vannith on 06.02.2012 at 16:36
Well to be fair, he can only make assumptions granted that he can't see behind the curtains.

I can give you that... But you don't need half a brain to realise than a review is one man's opinion.

True, he seems to be confused about that, as to why is beyond me..

Written by R'Vannith on 06.02.2012 at 16:44
True, he seems to be confused about that, as to why is beyond me..

Official review just means that someone from the staff/elite got contacted by the band and/or label to make a review, that's it.
It also means that the label/band can use the info to publish it somewhere else (as long as they link and credit the review to Metalstorm obviously.

But besides that, it doesn't mean that much really... At least not to me.

For giggles, a look behind the curtain. these were the black metal albums which received votes in our nomination process this year:


NOMINEES:
Wolves in the Throne Room - Celestial Lineage
Blut Aus Nord - 777 - The Desanctification
Anaal Nathrakh - Passion
Glorior Belli - The Great Southern Darkness
Blut Aus Nord - 777 - Sect(s)
Oranssi Pazuzu - Kosmonument
Cloak Of Alerting - The Night Comes Illuminated with Death
Infestus - E x | I s t
Rudra - Brahmavidya: Immortal I
Aaskereia - Dort, wo das alte Böse ruht
Fen - Epoch
Negative Plane - Stained Glass Revelations
Byfrost - Of Death
Woods of Desolation - Torn Beyond Reason
Altar of Plagues - Mammal
Krallice - Diotima
N.K.V.D. - Vlast
Absu - Absu
Epheles - Je suis autrefois
Forteresse - Crépuscule d'octobre
Ash Borer - Ash Borer
Enslaved - The Sleeping Gods
Samael - Lex Mundi
De Magia Veterum - The Divine Antithesis
Fell Voices - Fell Voices [2011]
Tyrant of Death - Macrocosmic Lunacy
Gorath - Apokalypsis
Alda - : tahoma :
Aosoth - III
Book of Sand - The Bees and the Butterflies
Farsot - Insects
Helrunar - Sól
Petrychor - Effigies and Epitaphs
Smohalla - Résilience
Surachai - To No Avail
Dolorvotre - Dolorvotre
Falls of Rauros - The Light That Dwells in Rotten Wood
Lifelover - Sjukdom
Nightbringer - Hierophany of the Open Grave
Pestilential Shadows - Depths
Totalselfhatred - Apocalypse in Your Heart
Tsjuder - Legion Helvete
Agrypnie - Asche
Chaos Moon - The Ouroboros Worm
Craft - Void
Dwellers of the Twilight - Sycophant
Leviathan - True Traitor True Whore
Nadiwrath - Nihilistic Stench
Ravencult - Morbid Blood
Taake - Noregs Vaapen
Assaulter - Boundless
Graveborne - Pure Negativity
Raventale - Bringer Of Heartsore
Saille - Irreversible Decay
Botanist - I: The Suicide Tree / II: A Rose From the Dead
Clair Cassis - Luxury Absolute
Demonaz - March Of The Norse
P.H.T.O. - Affliction
Skogen - Svítjod
Ave Maria - Chapter I
Caïna - Hands That Pluck
Cruxifiction - The Coming
Dämmerfarben - Im Abendrot
Dephosphorus - Axiom
Der Weg Einer Freiheit - Agonie
Ebonylake - In Swathes Of Brooding Light
Iperyt - No State of Grace
Johan Wolfgang Pozoj - Escape Of Pozoj
Lake of Blood - As Time and Tide Erodes Stone
Monvment - I
Neige et Noirceur - Hymnes de la montagne noire
Oaks Of Bethel - I Am The Bridge...
Panopticon - Social Disservices
Primigenium - Faith Through Anguish
Raspberry Bulbs - Nature Tries Again
Sentimen Beltza - Bizitza osoan zehar sortu den etsipenaren ondorioak
Servile Sect - Realms Of The Queen
The Axis Of Perdition - Tenements (Of The Anointed Flesh)
The Belonging - An Immortal Creation
The Phantom Carriage - New Thing
Vreid - V
Ygg - Ygg
Arckanum - Helvítismyrkr
Arizmenda - Without Circumference nor Center
Benighted In Sodom - Reverse Baptism
Brocken Moon - Hoffnungslos
Hades Archer - For the Diabolical Ages
Midnight Odyssey - Funerals From the Astral Sphere
Oskorien - Oskorien
Shining - VII - Född Förlorare
Svartsyn - Wrath Upon the Earth
Taake - Kveld
Verwüstung - Beyond the Watercolor Sunset, We Feel New Life
Aurvandil - Yearning
Avichi - The Devil's Fractal
Azarath - Blasphemers' Maledictions
Brulvahnatu - Menstrual Extraction Ceremony
Dodsferd - Spitting With Hatred the Insignificance of Life
Echtra - Paragate
Embers - Shadows
Felis Catus - Answers to Human Hypocrisy
Jute Gyte - Verstiegenheit
Liturgy - Aesthethica
Mescalin Massacre - Liquid, Soma, Death
Mussorgski - Chaos And Paranormal Divinity
Necronoclast - Ashes
Neige Morte - Neige Morte
Pensées Nocturnes - Ceci Est De La Musique
Pergalė - Horizontalios Maldos Palaima
Pyha - 맞불놀이
Sorrows - Lethe
The Beast Of The Apocalypse - Henosis
The Stone - Golet
Tukaaria - Raw to the Rapine
Wérdvenus - Mitos no Vale I
Yellow Eyes - Silence Threads The Evening's Cloth
Antropophobia - Scream In Emptiness
Burzum - Fallen
Endstille - Infektion 1813
Forgotten Tomb - Under Saturn Retrograde
Lost Inside - Mourning Wept Beside Me
Mastiphal - Parvzya
Shroud of Despondency - Dark Meditations in Monastic Seclusion

Yeah but you still missed Band - Album! Buaaaaaaaaaaaa buaaaaaaaaaaa buaaaaaaaaaaa!

You actually considered Liturgy? Wowzers.

Written by Slayer666 on 06.02.2012 at 20:46

You actually considered Liturgy? Wowzers.

and why wouldn't we? Just because of that moron of theirs with his bm manifest? Hahahahahaha

Written by Slayer666 on 06.02.2012 at 20:46

You actually considered Liturgy? Wowzers.

~

Written by [user id=127414] on 06.02.2012 at 02:08

.. Ergo, Hipster Black Metal is the new kvlt! ..

We consider anything anyone on staff has listened to... doesn't mean anyone thought particularly highly of it.

Doesn't matter... Some dudes still totally missed the point, whatever.

Written by Slayer666 on 06.02.2012 at 20:46

You actually considered Liturgy? Wowzers.

People where whining about us not taking consideration to x band and now they say that we take consideration to Y band....
Mind = blown

We take EVERYTHING.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 06.02.2012 at 21:21

and why wouldn't we? Just because of that moron of theirs with his bm manifest? Hahahahahaha

Nah, I meant that they are the kind of band whose music one listens to and says: "No, just fucking no...."

Written by X-Ray Rod on 06.02.2012 at 21:33

People where whining about us not taking consideration to x band and now they say that we take consideration to Y band....
Mind = blown
We take EVERYTHING.

Chill bro, no need to get sand in your you-know-where.
I'm just voicing my utter dislike for the band in this particular fashion.

Written by Slayer666 on 06.02.2012 at 21:36

Chill bro, no need to get sand in your you-know-where.
I'm just voicing my utter dislike for the band in this particular fashion.

It wasn't really aimed at you. I thought it was obvious. More of a general comment. I don't like that band at all either.

You have to admit though... it's easy to get a bit tired once you see the utterly hipocrisy of some people like I said above.

Written by Slayer666 on 06.02.2012 at 20:46

You actually considered Liturgy? Wowzers.

really good album but the kvlt kiddies can't see beyond the image of the people playing it.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 06.02.2012 at 21:45

really good album but the kvlt kiddies can't see beyond the image of the people playing it.

Only if you and me define "good" completely differently.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 06.02.2012 at 21:45
really good album but the kvlt kiddies can't see beyond the image of the people playing it.

I didn't find it that much different from styles of bands like Krallice... maybe that's just me?

Me neither. It's just that I find Krallice boredom at it's finest as well.

Written by X-Ray Rod on 06.02.2012 at 21:53

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 06.02.2012 at 21:45
really good album but the kvlt kiddies can't see beyond the image of the people playing it.

I didn't find it that much different from styles of bands like Krallice... maybe that's just me?

not that much different to it, but Krallice is also very good. Okay Liturgy isn't as good as them but still very good.

Liturgy had some awesome musical moments. Ultimately somewhat disappointing as a whole, but meh. Still no reason to hate on them.

But to be honest, I understand some of the complaints. As a semi-professional music media, it would be nice if the MS awards accounted for all the different (major) subgenres in each category. That's just good journalism. I get the method you use, but in this respect it doesn't always produce ideal results. To completely ignore (for example) traditional BM may be inevitable if no albums just make the cut based on your personal tastes, but at that point there might be a veto to include one representative of such a style. That would require one or a few peple responsible for each category negotiating the final nominees of course, and in practice it would probably just cause a lot of extra headaches.

Not saying you should do that. It's already a lot of work, and it's just something for fun. But I don't think there's reason to get too defensive or hostile when people criticize you. It's part of any job in journalism or the media. After all, it's a pretty reasonable initial expectation that one of the biggest metalzines on the net would feature a balanced selection of nominees from all the notable and currently relevant genres, personal preference aside. (And as a former Dungeon Master/mod on a large RP game server, I know you must get tons of completely unreasonable criticism too - comes with the job of representing on the Internet.)

Anyhow, I'm really excited about the nominations. Plenty of good albums I missed. Too bad I can't vote for Sonne Adam, but that's probably the only big WTF I had. That, and the avantgarde/post-metal/sludge categories are pretty fucked up in terms of consistency (since when is Long Distance Calling metal, let alone a good album - why is Omega Massif not post-metal when they basically embody the genre - isn't Giant Squid closer to stoner/sludge or prog - Earth and Corrupted post-metal?), but that's completely understandable and inevitable in such a mess of ambigious genre labels where cross-over is the norm. Such a great black metal year, and basically three categories for me to explore. I know way too little about BM.

tl;dr: Good job with the Awards. Don't worry about haters though, sometimes they have reasonable points and those who don't are forgotten anyway.

Written by IronAngel on 06.02.2012 at 22:16


tl;dr: Good job with the Awards. Don't worry about haters though, sometimes they have reasonable points and those who don't are forgotten anyway.

i don't, i just find it all horribly amusing. we sink a lot of time and effort into the process and the whining over who we omitted, who we should have omitted, what should go where is part of the pay off. and in another couple weeks, the tables turn and instead of whining about who the team nominate, everybody whines about who everybody else voted for we'll grab more popcorn and enjoy the second half of the double-header.

Written by IronAngel on 06.02.2012 at 22:16

...(since when is Long Distance Calling ...let alone a good album

That's your opinion and not a fact.

Quote:

- why is Omega Massif not post-metal when they basically embody the genre

since when does a very small band embody a genre?

Quote:
Earth and Corrupted post-metal?

No idea where else to put them since they totally aren't extreme doom, doom or sludge/stoner

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 06.02.2012 at 22:27

Quote:

- why is Omega Massif not post-metal when they basically embody the genre

since when does a very small band embody a genre?

I don't see how their size has to do with it. By representing pretty much all the hallmarks of the genre (except the typical vocal style, obviously), they're what I would call a model example of a post-metal band. To embody means to take something completely as part of you, or to represent something abstract in physical/concrete form. Or I think it does! It might have something to do with the unorthodox and undefined "post-metal" term, though. I've seen people use it for completely different things. To me, it's short for drawn-out atmospheric sludge which borrows heavily from post-rock and genres of the hardcore-family. And that's exactly what Omega Massif is. But yeah, post-metal is usually a type of sludge so it's a perfectly good category too. I just don't always see the consistency, such as how Obscure Sphinx is less sludge and more post-metal than Omega Massif when the opposite seems to be true. Both could go either way, I'll grant you that.

I have no idea where to put Corrupted or Earth, either. Probably because Earth isn't even metal, and Corrupted blends several genres: it certainly has elements of funeral doom in it, between purely ambient passages and some sludgy and post-metalish riffs. I figure avantgarde/experimental is a nice umbrella category to dump miscellaneous bands in, but I guess that's not really fair to all those different bands either. Post-Metal is probably a decent place to put at least Corrupted in, and I'm happy Earth got featured even if it doesn't sit well in a metal category. But just because they're not really doom or sludge doesn't really make them post-metal either.

As for Long Distance Calling, you're right. I do think it's somewhat strange that this album sparked such a MetalStorm buzz when it was barely noted as a decent album among all the post-rock buffs I know. Personally I found it somewhat cheesy and bland, but that's another matter. I suspect it has to do with limited exposure, some Metalstormer recommending it to others (I remember it was a Staff Pick) who liked it, but didn't really listen to all the other dozens of equally or more interesting post-rock albums out last year. Featuring a token non-metal album from a genre the staff doesn't really actively follow is hazardous, but your call.

Make no mistake though: I don't mind or really care about where you put what. Just cited some examples of what I don't think is perfect, to show that there are perfectly valid points to bring up if you care enough to start a flamewar on some message board. By making a public statement like the MS Awards nominations, you open yourself up for criticism and you need to suck it up professionally. You have the authority and prestige of a large webzine behind you, and that's probably why some invidual users whine and criticize the awards unreasonably; they have to compensate for the asymmetrical position somehow. It can be childish, annoying or amusing, but it's really quite understandable when you think about it.

Written by IronAngel on 06.02.2012 at 22:59
But just because they're not really doom or sludge doesn't really make them post-metal either.

You don't say?!



This is the discussion we had in the headquarters:

-So guys... Earth got nominated.... where the fuck do we put them?
- ... I dunno dude. We know it doesn't go in... pretty much anywhere.
-....Post? maybe
- POST?! wtf?
-Hey dude... you got a better idea?
- No...
- That's what I thought.

Seriously, I don't think anyone of us where satisfied with that decision...among many others. But it is the better one among all the wrong ones.

Written by IronAngel on 06.02.2012 at 22:59


As for Long Distance Calling, you're right. I do think it's somewhat strange that this album sparked such a MetalStorm buzz when it was barely noted as a decent album among all the post-rock buffs I know. Personally I found it somewhat cheesy and bland, but that's another matter. I suspect it has to do with limited exposure, some Metalstormer recommending it to others (I remember it was a Staff Pick) who liked it, but didn't really listen to all the other dozens of equally or more interesting post-rock albums out last year. Featuring a token non-metal album from a genre the staff doesn't really actively follow is hazardous, but your call.

I know a lot of post rock/post meta; buffs/geeks who think it is a great album. And who would rate it is one of the absolute top post rock releases of 2011. And who do regard it as being metal enough for a metal awards thing.

I was more than happy with it in post-metal. It's a post-rock album through and through and the band are readily identified with the metal scene so it's natural for it to belong there (even if it was a major stepdown from The Bees...)