Written by IronAngel on 06.02.2012 at 22:16

..isn't Giant Squid closer to stoner/sludge or prog

Would've put it in sludge myself but even then it still doesn't seem quite at home I think. There is a fair bit of post-metal about it. 'Snakehead' for example isn't nearly as sludgey as the rest. But 'Mating Scars' swings much more in that direction. Some albums are just too diverse to find any 'correct', or even satisfying, placement.

Written by R'Vannith on 06.02.2012 at 16:44

Written by X-Ray Rod on 06.02.2012 at 16:40

Written by R'Vannith on 06.02.2012 at 16:36
Well to be fair, he can only make assumptions granted that he can't see behind the curtains.

I can give you that... But you don't need half a brain to realise than a review is one man's opinion.

True, he seems to be confused about that, as to why is beyond me..

I'm saying what I'm saying because when most publications, i.e. magazines, review an album, even though the review is by an individual, that review becomes the official stance of the publication. I.E. if the review is questioned by a reader, critic or band themself, every member of the staff must be able to defend the review and their publication. A lot of publications have the same stance with awards. For example I saw a late 2010 interview with Albert Mudrian, the editor-in-chief of Decibel Magazine. When asked what his favorite release was in 2010 he stood behind the opinion of the magazine naming Agalloch's Marrow of the Spirit as the number one release of that year.

I'm not quite sure why you people keep trying to cut me down saying that I'm whining when I'm just try to explain my point of view. In the grand scheme of things, I could care less what this site chooses to do about the way it operates the yearly awards. I have no vested interest and there is no benefit to me whether one band or another wins an award. I didn't realize voicing my opinion would get you guys so hot and bothered.

Written by [user id=20536] on 07.02.2012 at 01:11



I'm saying what I'm saying because when most publications, i.e. magazines, review an album, even though the review is by an individual, that review becomes the official stance of the publication. I.E. if the review is questioned by a reader, critic or band themself, every member of the staff must be able to defend the review and their publication.

No it doesn't become the official stance of the publication and not every member sof the staff must be able to defend the publication. No idea where you get that idea from. I know loads of publications and people working for them (Terrorizer and Aardschok (longest running metal mag in the world) among them. And nowhere does it work like that.

As for your example of Agalloch as best of the year by Decibel that was, just like with Terrorizer's staff polls, Aarschok's staffpolls and our nominations a list that combines all the stances of all the staff members. That does include people hating that album and those people should be asked to defend the album. Why? Because they are individuals, only in North Korea, China, such countries would have to defend that. Mundrian probably could easily defend it as best of the year cause he enjoyed it immensely.

Written by [user id=20536] on 07.02.2012 at 01:11

Written by R'Vannith on 06.02.2012 at 16:44

Written by X-Ray Rod on 06.02.2012 at 16:40

Written by R'Vannith on 06.02.2012 at 16:36
Well to be fair, he can only make assumptions granted that he can't see behind the curtains.

I can give you that... But you don't need half a brain to realise than a review is one man's opinion.

True, he seems to be confused about that, as to why is beyond me..

I'm saying what I'm saying because when most publications, i.e. magazines, review an album, even though the review is by an individual, that review becomes the official stance of the publication. I.E. if the review is questioned by a reader, critic or band themself, every member of the staff must be able to defend the review and their publication. A lot of publications have the same stance with awards. For example I saw a late 2010 interview with Albert Mudrian, the editor-in-chief of Decibel Magazine. When asked what his favorite release was in 2010 he stood behind the opinion of the magazine naming Agalloch's Marrow of the Spirit as the number one release of that year.

I'm not quite sure why you people keep trying to cut me down saying that I'm whining when I'm just try to explain my point of view. In the grand scheme of things, I could care less what this site chooses to do about the way it operates the yearly awards. I have no vested interest and there is no benefit to me whether one band or another wins an award. I didn't realize voicing my opinion would get you guys so hot and bothered.

Oh I wasn't cutting you down, I simply can't understand why you need to push your opinion. As you just said you could care less, so why press the issue? It's only natural that you would defend your opinion once it has been criticized, but the same could be said of that of the staff. You are clearly at odds about something you apparently have no 'vested interest' in, so why continue?

Personally the only problem I have is that you all seem to be getting a little flustered of something this trivial. As I said before, enjoy the music for Christ's sake. That's all there is to it.

Written by R'Vannith on 07.02.2012 at 01:24

Oh I wasn't cutting you down, I simply can't understand why you need to push your opinion. As you just said you could care less, so why press the issue? It's only natural that you would defend your opinion once it has been criticized, but the same could be said of that of the staff. You are clearly at odds about something you apparently have no 'vested interest' in, so why continue?

Personally the only problem I have is that you all seem to be getting a little flustered of something this trivial. As I said before, enjoy the music for Christ's sake. That's all there is to it.

The awards themselves are trivial. What isn't is that when, I, a member of the site's general population has some questions/criticisms that I can only discuss publicly, as someone said because "I'm not behind the curtain," I'm met with numerous responses, have been basically called a "moron" and continually called "butthurt" because I simply wanted to discuss something and in public. When I get home from work with four notifications that people have quoted me for one comment, especially when the people respond with the same banter as the person above them, of course I'm going to respond.

@ Marcel
I basically see both the staff awards and MS awards here as basically the same because of the influence the staff has over both. 1 of 10 albums chosen by the staff will likely win both awards in every genre, rare is it for a write in to win. That's the basic criticism I've been trying to get across the whole time. And no response will change that. I don't know of any other publication that has a reader/user awards that says "here is what we think you should choose from."

Written by [user id=20536] on 07.02.2012 at 01:40

I don't know of any other publication that has a reader/user awards that says "here is what we think you should choose from."

True, neither can I (and the rest of the staff). That's why we decided to do it this way all the way back in 2004 to stand out from the masses who all do it the same way.
And like has been said, with our way, the smaller bands who are bound to be overlooked by the general public, now get exposure which they otherwise wouldn't get.

But still you have a warped view on that when an official staff reviewer gives, for example, the new Sabaton a 9.5, I should be able to say that I agree with that score.
If you look at Aardschok every month they have something called the soundcheck where every editor gives some thrity bands a rating and the rating varies immensely between them, but only one *the highest rating) review is published.

EDIT: And from all the feedback we get from bands it is clear they immensely enjoy the set up we use with the 10 nominees per category.

In regards to reviews - they reflect the opinion of the reviewer, not the site.

i don't know about all mags or sites, but most i read list the reviewer... if the review were simply to represent our collective view, it would just read "Metalstorm" at the bottom rather than Doc, BitterCOld or whatever.

and as Marcel pointed out, we have the Staff Picks we announce each year a week or two after the general results are announced. That is our "endorsed" album of the year in each genre. even then it does not reflect everyone's opinion, just our mashed up one.

Written by [user id=20536] on 07.02.2012 at 01:40

Written by R'Vannith on 07.02.2012 at 01:24

Oh I wasn't cutting you down, I simply can't understand why you need to push your opinion. As you just said you could care less, so why press the issue? It's only natural that you would defend your opinion once it has been criticized, but the same could be said of that of the staff. You are clearly at odds about something you apparently have no 'vested interest' in, so why continue?

Personally the only problem I have is that you all seem to be getting a little flustered of something this trivial. As I said before, enjoy the music for Christ's sake. That's all there is to it.

The awards themselves are trivial. What isn't is that when, I, a member of the site's general population has some questions/criticisms that I can only discuss publicly, as someone said because "I'm not behind the curtain," I'm met with numerous responses, have been basically called a "moron" and continually called "butthurt" because I simply wanted to discuss something and in public. When I get home from work with four notifications that people have quoted me for one comment, especially when the people respond with the same banter as the person above them, of course I'm going to respond.

I'm guessing that this argument you're having precedes your first post in this thread? So I don't know the full story. I can only go by what I'm aware of here but going from what Bittercold said in response to your first post here you had been pressing the matter pretty insistently. Why? Again, I just don't get why your so keen to put your opinion out there considering your disinterest in the matter. There seems to be some confliction there. Unless Bittercold is incorrect in saying that you have been pushing the issue, it seems as if you want your opinion heard but you don't really care that much about it. Well which is it? You care so much that you need you feel the need to publicly discuss the issue or you don't care all that much and don't really need to have made such a big deal of it all.

Written by BitterCOld on 07.02.2012 at 01:48

In regards to reviews - they reflect the opinion of the reviewer, not the site.

i don't know about all mags or sites, but most i read list the reviewer... if the review were simply to represent our collective view, it would just read "Metalstorm" at the bottom rather than Doc, BitterCOld or whatever.

and as Marcel pointed out, we have the Staff Picks we announce each year a week or two after the general results are announced. That is our "endorsed" album of the year in each genre. even then it does not reflect everyone's opinion, just our mashed up one.

Thank you for restating the last three posts.

Written by [user id=20536] on 07.02.2012 at 01:52

Thank you for restating the last three posts.

no problem. figured repetition can't hurt.

Written by R'Vannith on 07.02.2012 at 01:50


I'm guessing that this argument you're having precedes your first post in this thread? So I don't know the full story. I can only go by what I'm aware of here but going from what Bittercold said in response to your first post here you had been pressing the matter pretty insistently. Why? Again, I just don't get why your so keen to put your opinion out there considering your disinterest in the matter. There seems to be some confliction there. Unless Bittercold is incorrect in saying that you have been pushing the issue, it seems as if you want your opinion heard but you don't really care that much about it. Well which is it? You care so much that you need you feel the need to publicly discuss the issue or you don't care all that much and don't really need to have made such a big deal of it all.

Like I said, it's simply because I have the right to express a contrary opinion and I feel that they are getting upset each time. That doesn't have anything to do with the awards, just the fact that I could have a differing opinion and it gets someone so worked up. What I mean is that it could be a totally different issue than the awards, say a review or article, and I should still have the right to express an opposite opinion without feeling inferior. That's what I mean I could care less about the awards, it could be any issue.

Above post is kind of what I was getting at from the sidelines. Discussion for the sake of discussion is the point of a message board, and the best debates are usually those you have no vested agenda in. It's a little unfair for the staff to get worked up over criticism they openly invite by accepting the job of an online journalist and proceeding to make public statements about what's good. Respect goes both ways, of course, but you have to keep in mind the asymmetrical positions of a prestigeous journalist backed by the "establishment" and able to get his voice heard on the front page, and an individual user who can easily get mobbed by that inside circle who stay loyal to eachother and the decisions they've made.

It's just the dynamics of power, whether we like it or not.

Well I'll just say it again, to me it's a ridiculously trivial matter to be all that concerned about. It just seems to me to have been blown way out of proportion.

Written by [user id=20536] on 07.02.2012 at 01:56

Like I said, it's simply because I have the right to express a contrary opinion and I feel that they are getting upset each time. That doesn't have anything to do with the awards, just the fact that I could have a differing opinion and it gets someone so worked up. What I mean is that it could be a totally different issue than the awards, say a review or article, and I should still have the right to express an opposite opinion without feeling inferior. That's what I mean I could care less about the awards, it could be any issue.

you certainly have the right, but when suggestions are absurd, we also have the right to express our opinions.

criticism levied at staff regarding awards get some of us a little more fired up because of the amount of time we invest in the process. the notion we should let the awards (further and completely) devolve to a popularity contest and strip it of our input entirely is bound to cause heated reaction.

Written by BitterCOld on 07.02.2012 at 02:29

you certainly have the right, but when suggestions are absurd, we also have the right to express our opinions.

criticism levied at staff regarding awards get some of us a little more fired up because of the amount of time we invest in the process. the notion we should let the awards (further and completely) devolve to a popularity contest and strip it of our input entirely is bound to cause heated reaction.

It's a popularity contest whether it's you guys or the users. Asking the question "What album did you like best in this genre?" means people will vote for what they liked. I just think the 10 nominees keep people from voting for what they truly enjoyed last year compared to what you guys enjoyed. Just because you put a lot of time and effort into something doesn't mean it's great. Duke Nukem Forever and Chinese Democracy all had lots of time and effort put into them and were, IMO, ultimately let downs. Criticism is part of the job once you take on the responsibility of helping run a website or any other thing in life. As they say, "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen." It's as simple as that. I understand Marcel's argument that you guys want to let underground/overlooked bands shine, but you can do that with the staff awards.

Written by [user id=20536] on 07.02.2012 at 02:39

I understand Marcel's argument that you guys want to let underground/overlooked bands shine, but you can do that with the staff awards.

Not really because then people won't check them out, whereas now when they are nominated more people will check them out because they will check out all the nominees through the myspace/facebook whatever link we provided. And to be honest we don't put underground bands in just because they are undrgoround. All the ten nominees are in fact the ten bands we as a collective thought released the ten best albums in the category that year.

Written by [user id=20536] on 07.02.2012 at 02:39
\
It's a popularity contest whether it's you guys or the users. Asking the question "What album did you like best in this genre?" means people will vote for what they liked. I just think the 10 nominees keep people from voting for what they truly enjoyed last year compared to what you guys enjoyed. Just because you put a lot of time and effort into something doesn't mean it's great. Duke Nukem Forever and Chinese Democracy all had lots of time and effort put into them and were, IMO, ultimately let downs. Criticism is part of the job once you take on the responsibility of helping run a website or any other thing in life. As they say, "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen." It's as simple as that. I understand Marcel's argument that you guys want to let underground/overlooked bands shine, but you can do that with the staff awards.

ah, so the awards are "Chinese Democracy" because our tastes don't synch up with yours ... and marcel's point is partially accurately stated. we don't intentionally defer to overlooked bands, we simply vote on albums based upon the music and not the name on the album cover.

i can take criticism, but i can dole it out as well. and the ideas you've put forth regarding revamping the awards and the entire staff needing to mirror my opinion on an album because i posted 350 words on it are ludicrous and worthy of criticism as well.

Written by BitterCOld on 07.02.2012 at 02:46


ah, so the awards are "Chinese Democracy" because our tastes don't synch up with yours ... a

That is not what I said. I was simply giving an example about how time and hard work does not equate necessarily to greatness. If you can't see that then don't bother.

So I hear The new Swallow The sun is pretty good...

I can understand your concern about being able to voice your own opinion, but what I don't understand is your opinion itself in this instance:

Written by [user id=20536] on 07.02.2012 at 02:39

I just think the 10 nominees keep people from voting for what they truly enjoyed last year compared to what you guys enjoyed.

Even if that is the case why does that matter so much to you? It's the loss of other's choosing a nominated album over their favourite. In fact it's not a loss at all, they still enjoy the album that wasn't nominated, no? It's not like they take a glance at the nominees and instantly think, 'oh my favourite album isn't here, I'm just going to forget about that album now'. At least that's certainly not what I did.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 07.02.2012 at 02:45

Written by [user id=20536] on 07.02.2012 at 02:39

I understand Marcel's argument that you guys want to let underground/overlooked bands shine, but you can do that with the staff awards.

Not really because then people won't check them out, whereas now when they are nominated more people will check them out because they will check out all the nominees through the myspace/facebook whatever link we provided. And to be honest we don't put underground bands in just because they are undrgoround. All the ten nominees are in fact the ten bands we as a collective thought released the ten best albums in the category that year.

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I would like to see a less staff-influenced awards, but that's just me.

Written by [user id=20536] on 07.02.2012 at 02:56

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I would like to see a less staff-influenced awards, but that's just me.

well, there is always Terrorizer. and think of all the fun you can have when Behemoth wins everything (again) despite not releasing an album.

Written by [user id=20536] on 07.02.2012 at 02:56


I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I would like to see a less staff-influenced awards, but that's just me.

So you want us to be like every other publication around?
How boring.

Written by BitterCOld on 07.02.2012 at 02:58

Written by [user id=20536] on 07.02.2012 at 02:56

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I would like to see a less staff-influenced awards, but that's just me.

well, there is always Terrorizer. and think of all the fun you can have when Behemoth wins everything (again) despite not releasing an album.

This year it was mostly Mastodon and Devin Townsend

Written by BitterCOld on 07.02.2012 at 02:58

Written by [user id=20536] on 07.02.2012 at 02:56

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I would like to see a less staff-influenced awards, but that's just me.

well, there is always Terrorizer. and think of all the fun you can have when Behemoth wins everything (again) despite not releasing an album.

I don't read Terrorizer. I can only stand one metal magazine.

Written by Boxcar Willy on 07.02.2012 at 02:55

So I hear The new Swallow The sun is pretty good...

Lies, all lies And secondly, it's a 2012 release

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 07.02.2012 at 02:59

This year it was mostly Mastodon and Devin Townsend

at least they released albums... so an improvement, i guess.

Just trying to lighten the atmosphere

Written by [user id=20536] on 07.02.2012 at 01:40

The awards themselves are trivial. What isn't is that when, I, a member of the site's general population has some questions/criticisms that I can only discuss publicly, as someone said because "I'm not behind the curtain," I'm met with numerous responses, have been basically called a "moron" and continually called "butthurt" because I simply wanted to discuss something and in public. When I get home from work with four notifications that people have quoted me for one comment, especially when the people respond with the same banter as the person above them, of course I'm going to respond.

I could see how you would think that, and this is not meant as a slight against you, but your tone resulted in likewise responses, here is where it began I think:

Written by [user id=20536] on 01.02.2012 at 02:58

I'm pissed Absu isn't a choice anywhere in thrash. Abzu was a way better album than a lot of the choices. Shame on the Metalstorm staff for overlooking that one. Even if I write it in, it simply not being on the list will mean others will forget.

"Shame on the metalstorm staff". I'm not entirely sure what type of response you were expecting from us when you shake your finger at us after we've put a lot of time into putting this thing together. I, as well as many other staffs & elites would probably be happy to answer any questions as to why band ___ wasn't nominated in category ___, but when you approach it with a pissy tone, you're not going to get polite responses.

Written by Doc G. on 07.02.2012 at 03:32

"Shame on the metalstorm staff". I'm not entirely sure what type of response you were expecting from us when you shake your finger at us after we've put a lot of time into putting this thing together. I, as well as many other staffs & elites would probably be happy to answer any questions as to why band ___ wasn't nominated in category ___, but when you approach it with a pissy tone, you're not going to get polite responses.

Are we going to bring this up again? I already told Marcel I was dropping the argument a few posts above. I can keep going if you want though.