@Angelic Storm: I know that lots of people like it but I hate the song "Nightfall".

Written by RavenKing on 10.08.2010 at 14:32

@Angelic Storm: I know that lots of people like it but I hate the song "Nightfall".

I definitely understand why you dont like it. You have a particular aversion to softer sounding metal, and "Nightfall" is more or less a ballad. lol xD

Written by Angelic Storm on 10.08.2010 at 14:41

I definitely understand why you dont like it. You have a particular aversion to softer sounding metal, and "Nightfall" is more or less a ballad. lol xD

True, but it's not the softness and the slowness I hate the most in the song. It's Hansi's vocals. I find him extremely annoying in this song.

Written by RavenKing on 11.08.2010 at 00:01
True, but it's not the softness and the slowness I hate the most in the song. It's Hansi's vocals. I find him extremely annoying in this song.

Hmm... I think they're fine, but I guess if the music itself grates, then the vocals might annoy also. lol

@Vikcen: "Mirror Mirror"... I'm aware this one is classed as a fan favorite, and although I can partly see why that is, its a song that doesn't flow very well IMO. The intro, first verse, and the chorus is great. But the 2nd verse musically kills a bit of the song's momentum for me. The song does have some really good stuff in it, but I cant call it a classic because it doesnt flow as well as it should. xD Unlike about half of the other tracks on the album though, this one does have some merit.

Well, about ATEOT, my final rating is 9. I will highlight the sound of the album, possibly the best album in this sense, which is very meritorious and difficult for the type of music that makes Blind Guardian. If we compare it with the ANATO (similar to ATEOT) I think they have improved the sound, and definitely they have found the key (although the Hansi's voice doesn't sound so crude (raw, harsh) any more).

Now I'm listening the second cd, and it is very interesting. I love "You're The Voice" (Radio Edit) .


By the way:

Written by Angelic Storm on 10.08.2010 at 03:08


Of course I can understand why you love NIME, just because I dont love it, doesnt mean that nobody else can.

if you finally didn't understand it before, when I said:

Written by Vikcen on 09.08.2010 at 23:17


Simple, you can't understand why to me i love NIME and ANATO, and me i can't understand why you love BOF and FTB,

I only said it in a figurative sense.

Written by Angelic Storm on 11.08.2010 at 00:56

Written by RavenKing on 11.08.2010 at 00:01
True, but it's not the softness and the slowness I hate the most in the song. It's Hansi's vocals. I find him extremely annoying in this song.

Hmm... I think they're fine, but I guess if the music itself grates, then the vocals might annoy also. lol

I liked Hansi's vocals much more on the older albums (until "Somewhere Far Beyond"). It's a bit hard to explain but I think you will get my point. Hansi's vocals, though his voice is quite different, gave me a feeling a big like Mille's vocals on "Extreme Aggression" and "Coma Of Souls". Let me explain: both have a sharp touch and are not exactly clean. When you combine them to fast, guitar driven music with pounding drums (Blind Guardian's music has never been Thrash but it had an obvious Thrashy touch back then - the very reason why many Powermetal fans who don't listen to anything more extreme often dislike early Blind Guardian), the songs give you a feeling kinda comparable to a certain extent. I will always like Kreator much more and Blind guardian were never as extreme as Kreator but the fast pace of their old songs combined to the sharpness of vocals creates some kind of focus and relentless 'straightforwardness' that you won't get from modern and soft Powermetal.

For me, old Blind Guardian and early Helloween is the real Powermetal (like we called it back then, Melodic Speed Metal or sometimes German Speed) and what people call Powermetal nowadays is often more standard Heavy Metal sped up a bit (even hard rock in some cases). That's why I consider PM pretty much dead (for my idea of what PM is) nowadays and replaced by flowermetal. The way I conceive Powermetal in my mind is obviously different from that of people these days.

The comment I quoted a while ago about "you can see it's not Powermetal but Speed Metal by it actually being good" goes in the same direction. For me, Powermetal is some kind of Melodic Speed Metal music, by opposition to the slower and softer stuff people call Powermetal now. (forget the terms, it's the difference between both that I wish to underline or translate the sentence as "you can see it's not flowermetal but real Powermetal by it actually being good")
I know it can get confusing between the terms but the bottom line is, for me, real Powermetal is what some people refer to as Speed Metal. The other stuff they call Powermetal is only soft commercial barely-metal music that doesn't deserve to be labeled as Powermetal because it's too slow and soft.

All this is the result of the genre having gone increasingly slower and softer throughout the years, especially since around the millenia. (Imo, to the point it's not even Powermetal anymore but commercial garbage, extremely watered down)

@Hidden_Dictator:

Guy, you definitely have a problem haha, forget Blind Guardian. I mean, don't expect that Blind Guardian one day makes a record that you might like. Forget your hopes!

Written by RavenKing on 11.08.2010 at 05:01
I liked Hansi's vocals much more on the older albums (until "Somewhere Far Beyond"). It's a bit hard to explain but I think you will get my point. Hansi's vocals, though his voice is quite different, gave me a feeling a big like Mille's vocals on "Extreme Aggression" and "Coma Of Souls". Let me explain: both have a sharp touch and are not exactly clean. When you combine them to fast, guitar driven music with pounding drums (Blind Guardian's music has never been Thrash but it had an obvious Thrashy touch back then - the very reason why many Powermetal fans who don't listen to anything more extreme often dislike early Blind Guardian), the songs give you a feeling kinda comparable to a certain extent. I will always like Kreator much more and Blind guardian were never as extreme as Kreator but the fast pace of their old songs combined to the sharpness of vocals creates some kind of focus and relentless 'straightforwardness' that you won't get from modern and soft Powermetal.

Hmm... I wouldn't really compare the situation with Hansi to the one with Mille, because Hansi's voice has simply matured, whereas Mille's sounds a bit ragged these days. Or even a little shot. lol In fact, Hansi's vocals in the earlier days were far less raspy on the early albums, and not as aggressive as the later albums. His vocals in the early days had an innocence to them, and lacked maturity. But they definitely had a charm to them, and suit those albums very well. Yep, the first two albums were thrashy, even if they weren't out and out thrash. Even a lot of the albums that came afterwards had some thrashy touches, but this was an element of their sound that diminished gradually over the succeeding years. I love Kreator and Blind Guardian just about equally, but that's because I can appreciate both softer and more aggressive metal. I know there are some BG fans who much prefer the early stuff, and some who prefer the later stuff. Becuase of preferences/aversions to sofer or aggressive metal. For me FTB and SFB are great albums, but then so are ANATO and ATEOT. I think this is probably why IFTOS is my fave BG album. I see that one as the bridge album between the earlier and later BG material.

Quote:
For me, old Blind Guardian and early Helloween is the real Powermetal (like we called it back then, Melodic Speed Metal or sometimes German Speed) and what people call Powermetal nowadays is often more standard Heavy Metal sped up a bit (even hard rock in some cases). That's why I consider PM pretty much dead (for my idea of what PM is) nowadays and replaced by flowermetal. The way I conceive Powermetal in my mind is obviously different from that of people these days.

Well, when I first got into early Helloween, (around 1991) the term power metal didn't exist. Or at least it didnt exist to describe the genre that is now known as power metal. Early Helloween was melodic speed metal, but if you even look at "Walls Of Jericho", most of the songs on that album have very catchy choruses and soft-ish melodies. Both of which are seen as staple ingredients in what is now known as "powermetal". I dont think PM is dead at all. Though I do think a lot of very different bands occupy that genre with some being "flowery" as you describe. But even a lot of latter day PM retains some of the speed, and even aggression of early PM. Take a look at BG's latest for instance. Yep, the speed/thrashy influences are nowhere near as prominent as on the early releases, but both "Tanelorn" and "Voice In The Dark" contain scathing riffs, that production aside, could easily have fitted on earlier albums. Helloween also, have never completely abandoned their speed metal roots, aside from the early 90's albums.

Quote:
The comment I quoted a while ago about "you can see it's not Powermetal but Speed Metal by it actually being good" goes in the same direction. For me, Powermetal is some kind of Melodic Speed Metal music, by opposition to the slower and softer stuff people call Powermetal now. (forget the terms, it's the difference between both that I wish to underline or translate the sentence as "you can see it's not flowermetal but real Powermetal by it actually being good")
I know it can get confusing between the terms but the bottom line is, for me, real Powermetal is what some people refer to as Speed Metal. The other stuff they call Powermetal is only soft commercial barely-metal music that doesn't deserve to be labeled as Powermetal because it's too slow and soft.

Well, I guess there is a line between melodic speed metal, and what is now known today as powermetal. The problem is, in a lot of cases that line is quite blurred. And maybe because unlike you, I dont have a particular aversion to softer stuff, its not as noticeable for me. But, to give an example, later BG is very different from say, the stuff that Dream Evil do, yet both are labelled as power metal. The latter to me are more a standard heavy metal band, not power metal. PM is a genre that seems to accomodate a lot of different sounding bands. Which can be a bit confusing I guess.

Quote:
All this is the result of the genre having gone increasingly slower and softer throughout the years, especially since around the millenia. (Imo, to the point it's not even Powermetal anymore but commercial garbage, extremely watered down)

Again... if you take a look at Helloween's Keeper albums for example, there is a lot of softer and slower stuff on those albums. And they were released in the late 80's. I think those albums in particular, are what kick started the genre that is now known as power metal, because there were softer and slower elements to go along with the speed.

Indeed, I don't consider bands like Dream Evil, current Hammerfall, current Edguy/Avantasia and lots of others as Powermetal. They're either standard Heavy Metal, hard rock, pop rock or even cock rock, depending on bands and songs. And I dismiss them as mediocre commercial popmetal.

Written by RavenKing on 11.08.2010 at 13:36

Indeed, I don't consider bands like Dream Evil, current Hammerfall, current Edguy/Avantasia and lots of others as Powermetal. They're either standard Heavy Metal, hard rock, pop rock or even cock rock, depending on bands and songs. And I dismiss them as mediocre commercial popmetal.

Although I might not go as far as you, I can kinda see what you mean. Current Hammerfall still has some speed, and adventure from the old days. ("Legion" and "One Of A Kind" from the latest album being examples) I dont think they've changed THAT much. Edguy... yes. Most of their material now is more like hard rock (and occasional cock rock) or standard heavy metal than the power metal of the first 2 albums especially. (The old Helloween influence is all over those albums! lol) Dream Evil were never out and out PM IMO, even on their first album. They've always been more standard melodic metal. Pop rock is something that Tobi Sammet has produced quite a bit of on the last 3 Avantasia albums. Whether someone likes that type of stuff or not, is of course just all down to personal preference. But yep, a lot of stuff is labelled power metal these days that have little to do with the style as it originally was. The thing is now, a lot of bands labelled PM now, are predominantly hard rock/standard heavy metal etc, with maybe slight elements or traces of old PM. Wheras with old PM it was the other way around. Predominantly PM/Melodic speed metal, with maybe slight elements of those lighter styles. (I.E. Early Helloween)

Or Jag Panzer.

Written by Angelic Storm on 11.08.2010 at 17:32

Written by RavenKing on 11.08.2010 at 13:36

Indeed, I don't consider bands like Dream Evil, current Hammerfall, current Edguy/Avantasia and lots of others as Powermetal. They're either standard Heavy Metal, hard rock, pop rock or even cock rock, depending on bands and songs. And I dismiss them as mediocre commercial popmetal.

Although I might not go as far as you, I can kinda see what you mean. Current Hammerfall still has some speed, and adventure from the old days. ("Legion" and "One Of A Kind" from the latest album being examples) I dont think they've changed THAT much. Edguy... yes. Most of their material now is more like hard rock (and occasional cock rock) or standard heavy metal than the power metal of the first 2 albums especially. (The old Helloween influence is all over those albums! lol) Dream Evil were never out and out PM IMO, even on their first album. They've always been more standard melodic metal. Pop rock is something that Tobi Sammet has produced quite a bit of on the last 3 Avantasia albums. Whether someone likes that type of stuff or not, is of course just all down to personal preference. But yep, a lot of stuff is labelled power metal these days that have little to do with the style as it originally was. The thing is now, a lot of bands labelled PM now, are predominantly hard rock/standard heavy metal etc, with maybe slight elements or traces of old PM. Wheras with old PM it was the other way around. Predominantly PM/Melodic speed metal, with maybe slight elements of those lighter styles. (I.E. Early Helloween)

Ay, I do declare....the walls of jericho was true power metal (melodic speed) and its sad that it never took off like its keeper counterpart...but it may make a return

Written by Angelic Storm on 11.08.2010 at 17:32

Although I might not go as far as you, I can kinda see what you mean. Current Hammerfall still has some speed, and adventure from the old days. ("Legion" and "One Of A Kind" from the latest album being examples) I dont think they've changed THAT much. Edguy... yes. Most of their material now is more like hard rock (and occasional cock rock) or standard heavy metal than the power metal of the first 2 albums especially. (The old Helloween influence is all over those albums! lol) Dream Evil were never out and out PM IMO, even on their first album. They've always been more standard melodic metal. Pop rock is something that Tobi Sammet has produced quite a bit of on the last 3 Avantasia albums. Whether someone likes that type of stuff or not, is of course just all down to personal preference. But yep, a lot of stuff is labelled power metal these days that have little to do with the style as it originally was. The thing is now, a lot of bands labelled PM now, are predominantly hard rock/standard heavy metal etc, with maybe slight elements or traces of old PM. Wheras with old PM it was the other way around. Predominantly PM/Melodic speed metal, with maybe slight elements of those lighter styles. (I.E. Early Helloween)

Yeah. It went completely the other way around. That's why I can hardly consider most 'Powermetal' bands nowadays as Powermetal. They dumbed down their music to hard rock.

A little note here: 2 or 3 slightly uptempo songs on an album chock-full of mid-tempo and slow songs don't make it a Powermetal album.

Hammerfall is a joke nowadays, if you ask me. Shitty popmetal.

My god, I love "You're The Voice" (radio edit), the feeling is totally amazing, it is spectacular. Even i might say that it is one of the best songs of Blind Guardian. O_O

Written by RavenKing on 12.08.2010 at 00:10

Written by Angelic Storm on 11.08.2010 at 17:32

Although I might not go as far as you, I can kinda see what you mean. Current Hammerfall still has some speed, and adventure from the old days. ("Legion" and "One Of A Kind" from the latest album being examples) I dont think they've changed THAT much. Edguy... yes. Most of their material now is more like hard rock (and occasional cock rock) or standard heavy metal than the power metal of the first 2 albums especially. (The old Helloween influence is all over those albums! lol) Dream Evil were never out and out PM IMO, even on their first album. They've always been more standard melodic metal. Pop rock is something that Tobi Sammet has produced quite a bit of on the last 3 Avantasia albums. Whether someone likes that type of stuff or not, is of course just all down to personal preference. But yep, a lot of stuff is labelled power metal these days that have little to do with the style as it originally was. The thing is now, a lot of bands labelled PM now, are predominantly hard rock/standard heavy metal etc, with maybe slight elements or traces of old PM. Wheras with old PM it was the other way around. Predominantly PM/Melodic speed metal, with maybe slight elements of those lighter styles. (I.E. Early Helloween)

Yeah. It went completely the other way around. That's why I can hardly consider most 'Powermetal' bands nowadays as Powermetal. They dumbed down their music to hard rock.

A little note here: 2 or 3 slightly uptempo songs on an album chock-full of mid-tempo and slow songs don't make it a Powermetal album.

Hammerfall is a joke nowadays, if you ask me. Shitty popmetal.

I have never even thought Hammerfall was power metal but anyways, those bands that you mentioned are not the core of power metal. If you listen to bands like Blind Guardian, Sabaton, Saxon, Helloween, Symphony X and Gamma Ray you'll notice that they are actually becoming more Power Metal they have ever been. For example Saxon (80's American "Heavy" Metal rock band, today making songs like Lionheart and Battalions Of Steel or Helloween's Gambling With The Devil (what Chameleon? Listen to The Saints or Kill It).

Many many many listens in, im still convinced its great

I dont like the middle slump (Curse My Name, Valkyries, Control The Divine, War Of The Thrones) but for some reason i almost completely forgive it...and i usually skip control the divine

Really? "Curse My Name," "Valkyries," and "Control the Divine" are my three favorite songs, except for maybe "Wheel of Time."

Written by Kalmari on 18.08.2010 at 13:51

For example Saxon (80's American "Heavy" Metal rock band, today making songs like Lionheart and Battalions Of Steel or Helloween's Gambling With The Devil (what Chameleon? Listen to The Saints or Kill It).

Saxon are NWOBHM, not American, though these days they're more hard rock than anything.

Great album.

Written by JÄY on 23.08.2010 at 17:40

Many many many listens in, im still convinced its great

I dont like the middle slump (Curse My Name, Valkyries, Control The Divine, War Of The Thrones) but for some reason i almost completely forgive it...and i usually skip control the divine

I actually love all those songs aside from "Control The Divine", which I think is as close to a filler I can find on the album.

Written by Angelic Storm on 26.08.2010 at 18:08

Written by JÄY on 23.08.2010 at 17:40

Many many many listens in, im still convinced its great

I dont like the middle slump (Curse My Name, Valkyries, Control The Divine, War Of The Thrones) but for some reason i almost completely forgive it...and i usually skip control the divine

I actually love all those songs aside from "Control The Divine", which I think is as close to a filler I can find on the album.

yeah control is kinda filler...we agree there... and its notta slump in quality, just energy...i dont think theyre bad at all

After hundred times of listening, all songs are my favorite! i can't choose one or two, an outstanding production

The symphonic parts are more symphonic and the thrashy parts are more thrashy then in most of their stuff. not as catchy though a decent album. 7

Written by Valentin B on 27.08.2010 at 19:15

The symphonic parts are more symphonic and the thrashy parts are more thrashy then in most of their stuff. not as catchy though a decent album. 7

The symphonic parts are perfect , I love theme

Written by JÄY on 26.08.2010 at 18:14

Written by Angelic Storm on 26.08.2010 at 18:08

Written by JÄY on 23.08.2010 at 17:40

Many many many listens in, im still convinced its great

I dont like the middle slump (Curse My Name, Valkyries, Control The Divine, War Of The Thrones) but for some reason i almost completely forgive it...and i usually skip control the divine

I actually love all those songs aside from "Control The Divine", which I think is as close to a filler I can find on the album.

yeah control is kinda filler...we agree there... and its notta slump in quality, just energy...i dont think theyre bad at all

Are you kidding? "Control the Divine" is my favorite song!

Written by JÄY on 26.08.2010 at 18:14
yeah control is kinda filler...we agree there... and its notta slump in quality, just energy...i dont think theyre bad at all

It's actually a good song, it just takes a little while to get going. I thought the first verse was a bit meh, especially the first time I heard it. lol I do kinda see what you mean. I think the tracklisting could have been arranged better so all those songs werent lumped together.

Lol I really like control and divine

Written by Derwood on 26.08.2010 at 02:22

Written by Kalmari on 18.08.2010 at 13:51

For example Saxon (80's American "Heavy" Metal rock band, today making songs like Lionheart and Battalions Of Steel or Helloween's Gambling With The Devil (what Chameleon? Listen to The Saints or Kill It).

Saxon are NWOBHM, not American, though these days they're more hard rock than anything.

Yeah but I meant in the 80's they only tried to get famous in america like on the albums Rock The Nations and Crusader. I probably wrote it a bit unclear. And the new album is very much power metal, see Valley Of The Kings and Battalions Of Steel

Written by RavenKing on 06.08.2010 at 14:26

Written by Angelic Storm on 06.08.2010 at 13:10

Well, Ive always loved soft and aggressive stuff. Which is why I love so many different genres of metal. Metal is a genre that offers the best of both worlds, if you happen to like both extremes. There is some stuff that is even too soft for me, (for example I dont like symphonic metal with female vocals) but generally speaking, I can embrace softness and aggression equally. Which is why I can greatly appreciate the later albums of Blind Guardian. Even the faults I found with the last album were to do with fillers which arent memorable at all, rather than the soft sections themselves. Blind Guardian have had a soft side for most of their career. Apart from the first 2 albums, there are softer sections, or whole songs which are soft. From "Somewhere Far Beyond" onwards, the layered, softer, atmospheric aspects of their sound have grown with each successive album.

I can kinda see why you'd seperate even later BG from most power metal. Unless you find the medieval slant of a lot of their lyrics and music cheesy, then there's not really anything in their sound which is cheesy. Although unlike you I love ANATO, I do agree that it is better than NIME. While I do like that album, I think its a little bit overrated.

As far as I remember, my favorite songs on albums were nearly always the heaviest, fastest, most aggressive ones. That's the way I am and there's nothing I can do about it.

I have absolutely nothing against medieval lyrics and imagery themselves. I'm a big Middle Ages lover. It all comes down to the way it is done. In fact, several Black Metal bands I'm listening to have medieval lyrics. What I can't stand is the way Euroflowermetal bands turn medieval lyrics in a childish cheesefest without any depth, the way it sounds so ridiculous and not credible at all.

Man u listen to this shit called Black Metal? i could never listen to that. Grab a Heavy Metal CD if u like Raw stuff. Priest, Accept, Primal Fear something like that. Every Genre has its Shitty bands and cheese especially Black Metal...

Written by Mountain King on 14.09.2010 at 13:14

Man u listen to this shit called Black Metal? i could never listen to that. Grab a Heavy Metal CD if u like Raw stuff. Priest, Accept, Primal Fear something like that. Every Genre has its Shitty bands and cheese especially Black Metal...

Since when does lame old outdated standard heavy metal is rawer than Black Metal, please tell me.
Priest, Accept, Primal Fear... It all sounds like commercial mainstream metal to me.

You can like this kind of metal as much as you want but don't come here telling me it's rawer than Black Metal. Talk of a laughable comment.