Written by Lucas on 19.06.2006 at 15:01

@JoeDoom.

Still, I have and probably will always wonder why someone else's opinion is important. If you like a band, listen to it. If a band that you don't like comes on television, throw the fucking tv out. If a kid with a slipknot shirt comes to you and says that your t-shirt of 'Undying' is cool, punch the motherfucker in the face!! BUt why care, about what someone else likes? it is up to YOU wether you listen to it or not.

Idealistically this would be nice, but the world clearly does not work like that. We are all subject to how much popularity a band has to some degree. We are all subject to trends no matter how small and dynamic they may be. We do not all know of every single band in existence nor do we have the resources or time to listen to them all.

Read my other posts more carefully. I have tried to explain why.

You might be right in your post towards Bitter COld. But the thing is, probably EVERY musical genre will have followers, and if it wouldn't have it would die with the last artist. So we just HAVE to pass Black Metal on. If BM would only be for those who have been around in the eigthees and ninetees, so those who are 'true' BM'ers, it would extinct.

So what we need to is, we need to pass to those who will like it. If I let a 100 slipknot fans listen to <insert underground BM band> and 70 will hate it, 29 will say they like it and actually hate it, and 1 will love it, then I did something good for the genre, I think. Because as said, no genre can live without fresh 'followers'.

Therefor I don't think trends are bad by definition. I understand it isn't nice to see someone wear a Xasthur shirt and will wear an Eminem shirt tomorrow, but every trend will pass within a year, probably not longer. And when it has passed, BM is underground again, and only those trendfollowers who truly love BM will stay. That's not bad, is it?

Written by Lucas on 20.06.2006 at 14:15

You might be right in your post towards Bitter COld. But the thing is, probably EVERY musical genre will have followers, and if it wouldn't have it would die with the last artist. So we just HAVE to pass Black Metal on. If BM would only be for those who have been around in the eigthees and ninetees, so those who are 'true' BM'ers, it would extinct.

So what we need to is, we need to pass to those who will like it. If I let a 100 slipknot fans listen to <insert underground BM band> and 70 will hate it, 29 will say they like it and actually hate it, and 1 will love it, then I did something good for the genre, I think. Because as said, no genre can live without fresh 'followers'.

Therefor I don't think trends are bad by definition. I understand it isn't nice to see someone wear a Xasthur shirt and will wear an Eminem shirt tomorrow, but every trend will pass within a year, probably not longer. And when it has passed, BM is underground again, and only those trendfollowers who truly love BM will stay. That's not bad, is it?

Where have I said black metal shouldn't have new fans? Where have I stated all trends are bad? I don't think you've understood much of what I wrote.

Also I don't think you realize any long term effects of a genre being completely degraded by any significant dangerous trends. Look at the other genres affected by them and think of how they have changed for the worse.

Written by Guest on 20.06.2006 at 17:15

Where have I said black metal shouldn't have new fans? Where have I stated all trends are bad? I don't think you've understood much of what I wrote.

You said Wolves ITTR shamelessly copy Weakling. You will always have these bands. Does it matter? You have not said a good thing about trends either, so I assumed you found them bad. My mistake.

Quote:

Also I don't think you realize any long term effects of a genre being completely degraded by any significant dangerous trends. Look at the other genres affected by them and think of how they have changed for the worse.

I don't know what you mean. Give me an example, please.

@JoeDoom

I agree with everything youre saying to some degree, but I dont understand why it bothers you so much? Black Metal has pretty much destroyed itself since the invention of the internet. Go to Metal Archives and and set the filter for black metal. 1317 black metal bands in the US alone. How many of them do you think are worth anything? 1/16th, if even that? The fact is most black metal is already worthless, everyone is trying to sound to sound like another band so I dont see how bands fusing black metal with other genres can hurt. Some good can come out of it, but true black metal pretty much died in the 90's man. Move on.

@Mecha Zombie. You're probably right about all those bands being worthless. But isn't that in every musical genre? I mean, isn't every musical genre filled with copycats and other worthless crap. I think so. So that is why we musn't care and open threads like this to get the 1/16th out, even if not all will agree with that.

Written by Lucas on 20.06.2006 at 17:21


I don't know what you mean. Give me an example, please.

Melodic death metal
Neurosis type Sludge
Grindcore

All these genres have changed for the worse.

Written by Zombie, M.D. on 20.06.2006 at 17:39



I agree with everything youre saying to some degree, but I dont understand why it bothers you so much? Black Metal has pretty much destroyed itself since the invention of the internet. Go to Metal Archives and and set the filter for black metal. 1317 black metal bands in the US alone. How many of them do you think are worth anything? 1/16th, if even that? The fact is most black metal is already worthless, everyone is trying to sound to sound like another band so I dont see how bands fusing black metal with other genres can hurt. Some good can come out of it, but true black metal pretty much died in the 90's man. Move on.

The issue/argument is not about Wolves in the Throne Room being generic or copying another band. It is them exploiting black metal to the college/post-college indie trendy rock scene. Please read my previous posts or ask me to clarify something before trying to argue a point that has never been brought up.

If you've ever seen or met Wolves in the Throne Room and then give their album/demos a more objective listen, you may be able to understand the severity of the situation.

I understood what you were saying. Im saying the worst a wave of trendy college indie kids can do to black metal is kick its already dead corpse.

Written by Guest on 20.06.2006 at 23:38

Written by Lucas on 20.06.2006 at 17:21


I don't know what you mean. Give me an example, please.

Melodic death metal
Neurosis type Sludge
Grindcore

All these genres have changed for the worse.

We might as well stop this discussion, because we aren't going to agree anyway. So, what do you say?

So I dropped in on this thread expecting we'd be talking about Wolves in the Throne Room...Should I come back at another time?

Anyway, I picked up a magazine today and there's a huge article in there about them. I was pretty surprised. Right on the fourth page. I must be far behind on the times, here...But they really sound like a pretty interesting band. I hope to hear them soon. From their words in this interview I have just read, they sound quite genuine and passionate about what they are doing. They sound incredibly down-to-earth for a bunch of musicians. I'm not sure about this "bastardization of black metal" stuff that you guys are fighting about, as I obviously haven't had a listen yet, but I must say, that holding on to the old idea of black metal is like clinging to a sinking ship. Something's got to change, as others have said. It would be nice, I think, to hear something fresh. I really don't give a flying fuck about "staying true" or "exploitation" or "popularity". Upon hearing the music itself I will pass judgement on its quality.

On a side note: it seems sort of odd to me that they don't incorporate bass? How is the sound without it? Do you guys think it is for the better or worse?

Written by Guest on 22.06.2006 at 05:04

I'm not sure about this "bastardization of black metal" stuff that you guys are fighting about

I've not heard this band yet either, so I cannot comment in full. But I reckon, by the sounds of it, that this "bastardization" people are arguing over, is probably the same "bastardization" they argued over when bands like Emperor and Cradle of Filth decided they were going to do something interesting with Black Metal, rather than continue to churn out the same mediocre durge.

Written by Guest on 20.06.2006 at 23:38


The issue/argument is not about Wolves in the Throne Room being generic or copying another band. It is them exploiting black metal to the college/post-college indie trendy rock scene. Please read my previous posts or ask me to clarify something before trying to argue a point that has never been brought up.

Most new black metal albums that I enjoy listening to bring new elements. ideas, and entire concepts to black metal.

What I am not interested in are the new elements, ideas, and entire concepts brought to black metal by kids who listened to Converge and Bleeding Through last year.

Written by Guest on 22.06.2006 at 10:15


I've not heard this band yet either, so I cannot comment in full. But I reckon, by the sounds of it, that this "bastardization" people are arguing over, is probably the same "bastardization" they argued over when bands like Emperor and Cradle of Filth decided they were going to do something interesting with Black Metal, rather than continue to churn out the same mediocre durge.

"they argued over when bands like Emperor and Cradle of Filth decided they were going to do something interesting with Black Metal"
Cradle of Filth doing something interesting with black metal....
You were done before you even started.

Written by Guest on 22.06.2006 at 14:51

Written by Guest on 22.06.2006 at 10:15


I've not heard this band yet either, so I cannot comment in full. But I reckon, by the sounds of it, that this "bastardization" people are arguing over, is probably the same "bastardization" they argued over when bands like Emperor and Cradle of Filth decided they were going to do something interesting with Black Metal, rather than continue to churn out the same mediocre durge.

"they argued over when bands like Emperor and Cradle of Filth decided they were going to do something interesting with Black Metal"
Cradle of Filth doing something interesting with black metal....
You were done before you even started.

Wrong. It isn't interesting for you. But for someone else it might be.

What the hell are you guys talking about?

Written by Guest on 22.06.2006 at 18:54

What the hell are you guys talking about?

Nothing important really. JoeDoom, we should stop this. If you want, create a thread and invite me to it. (Oh wait, you can't. If you really want to discuss this, PM what you would like in the thread and I'll make it for you)


We should rather be discussing Wolves In The Throne Room..

Written by Guest on 22.06.2006 at 18:54

What the hell are you guys talking about?

All my arguments pertain to Wolves In The Throne Room.

They are part of the exploitation of black metal to the college/post-college indie trendy rock scene. As an increasing amount of black metal bands comprised of these college/post-college trendy kids are being accepted into the metal scene, this will cause major degradation in the genre.

I've got Diadem Of Twelve Stars by Wolves In The Throne room and it's enjoyable. Sure, far from the rest of the black metal bands that I love but still worthy of a listen every now and again.

I listen them in my Space and I like those songs and samples there, but lbum cover, it remainds me lil' early Borknogar, Arcyurus nd Ulver muisc and album covers intresting band, seems my secend best discovery thnk's to MS after Woods Of Ypres

Written by Bad English on 22.09.2006 at 12:52

I listen them in my Space and I like those songs and samples there, but lbum cover, it remainds me lil' early Borknogar, Arcyurus nd Ulver muisc

did we listen to the same band???

I have "diadem" - have been listening to it on and off for several months now, and I really like it, scene consequences be damned.

@ JoeDoom : /care dont like the band dont waste your time here, do something else than complain and do something worth your while, its not like thoose hated "indie post-collage thinge sellout guys" are going to dissapear by your mindless ranting on a band on A FORUM. *sighs*

@ Everyone else: Heard the first samples of this band today and it was amazing, really looking forward to get their album!

i dislike this band... alot

Well, i love Diadem of 12 Stars, ir's probably the best black metal i've listened in a year or so. Anyway i found a 7 minute sample from the last song of their new album, Two Hunters and it sounds really great too.

But does anyone know if the album is out yet or when it is going to be released?

I listened to their new album yesterday and it's okay. I'm getting tired of all these 3 or 4 song full length albums though. The first song seems just like filler and I guess turned me off right at the beginning. The other 3 songs are good though, and I think the addition of the female vocals was a good idea.

I listened to there stuff on myspace, its pretty good. Im going to be seeing these guys live at the Noctis Valkyries festival in my city in a few weeks. There playing with Melechesh, Inquisition, Infernal Majesty, Verbal Deception, Dark Forest, Insidious Omen, Norrath, Wargod, and Lords Of The Mountain. the last 5 or 6 of those are just local bands, but if WITTR stand out Ill definitly pick up an album at the show.

I should still get 'diadem'. I like it, but never got around to buy it. Maybe with the new album.

Written by Dangerboner on 13.09.2007 at 01:56

I'm getting tired of all these 3 or 4 song full length albums though.

yeah, me too. that's why i never really got into this band. the songs are to damn long.

it's good to see that after black metal was killed years ago by its own corpse-painted spaws, a few college/post-college indie kids had came to rescue it bringing refreshing elements and a new mystic

Two hunters is not as extraordinary as their first album, but still the best BM album of the year so far

but.. but.. but... they are EXPLOITING black metal!