My guitar teacher, who is heavily jazz influenced, said something that I found very closed minded.
He said that he considers any music played by untrained musicians folk music.
I made the argument that many metal musicians are classiclly trained, and many more are taught theory.
He replied that they have no reason to use the theory because their audience only wants to hear heavy energetic music, and don't care about the melody and harmony behing it.

This offended me, as I know that almost everyone on this forum takes serious time to listen to the music.

However, I do have a question.
Do you think music theory and technique can be learned from metal, or is it better to come into metal from more established, older genres like Classical and Jazz?

Written by Hangar XVIII on 10.04.2008 at 16:35

However, I do have a question.
Do you think music theory and technique can be learned from metal, or is it better to come into metal from more established, older genres like Classical and Jazz?

Well, Heavy Metal music will never have "prestige" among the masses, and even amongst most musicians. It's just something we have to do with and frankly, it doesn't bother me. I think a lot can be learned from any genre of music. What matters most is the effort one puts into it, how they learn, and sometimes who they learn from.

Interesting topic. When I began studying music theory years ago (wow, I am getting old), it was because of Dream Theater. When I first got into Dream theater 10 years ago, I was blown away by their sound, and started playing them all the time. My best friend, who is classically trained in music, heard some of it and couldn't believe what he was listening to. Their use of music theory and composition was far above anyone else out there. Soon we began using their music in class and out teacher really got into it. So in addition to classical and jazz we began analyzing Dream Theater (soon followed by Tool, Queensryche and King's X).

So to answer your question, I would say you can approach Metal from either direction. I came into music theory from Metal, my buddy came into Metal through music theory.

I would just love to see your guitar teacher try playing Metropolis Part II: Scenes From a Memory.

Meh... he just sounds a bit biased, however it really depends on what genre of metal you're looking at just like how Dane mentioned. While you have some metal musicians who are bent on making atmospheric music without putting that much musical thought into their songs end up creating amazing music, are essentially amateurs. Is there anything really wrong with that? Some of the best music comes from amateurs... As someone I know put it this way :

"The emotion that comes from phrasing and emphasizing the power of a note can sometimes touch far more people than the over the top techniques of another musician, and as music being a form of art, it is in every artists goal to create something that essentially effects people".

So I think its really down to opinion, to me, no matter how good you are at playing an instrument, if you cannot catch the attention of people because your songwriting is just too showy then you have failed as an artist.

But of course there are many, many, bands who are technical and very powerful in terms of projecting a sound or mood, and that can make the music even more appreciable.

the roots and various influences of metal are some of the greatest and most complex musical creations, take for example classical music. sure, some bands may not have or may not apply complex and intricated compositions, as long as it sounds good. and that's a good thing, like sunioj said, if it reaches people, and it has some effect on them, then they achieved their goal. therefore, it doesn't matter if you get into metal because of the theory behind it, or the other way round. imo what is really important is that you're into it, and that it has an effect on you and you like and appreciate it deeply. it's really like another friend of yours, your best friend! (at least that's my case)

the fact is that in most cases metal is a very well constructed musical genre, and has a lot of theory behind it, much more than a lot of other genres out there, and additionaly it sounds great and has an effect on a lot of people around the world (duhh, why are we all here on MS, after all? )

so, to answer the question, yeah, meatl is a serious discipline at a great level, and no matter what the genre, it has an effect on people, which ultimately is one of the goal of music, considering it a form of art.

Music theory and such is very subject when it comes to metal, at least in my eyes and from what I've seen discussed on other forums. Alot of "successful" metal musicians were self taught, and invented their own sounds, and some people argue that learning technical playing/music theory limits a player to only pairing up notes that fit with what they were taught in school thus they may limit themself from branching out and bending or breaking the rules.

When I first started jamming with my friend/music college, he said my playing was interesting and that it was kind of good that I didn't know all the technicalities because I came up with stuff he wouldn't have necassarily come up with.

I'm in the middle, I think learning the technical aspects is useful because then you can make the music your own and purposely bend the rules, yet you know enough to make things sound good. However, I'll stick with experimentation and being ignorant.

My friend and I had a conversation the other day about metal guitarists compared to other genres. Take a look at many famous rock bands like Foghat and bands like them. The guitarists are well known, yet nobody would have a clue who the guitarist of Necrophagist is, and look at his playing. I bet your guitar teacher couldn't even get Epitaph down in a week!

I think that Metal has the most talented musicians compared to all other genres of music.

When I came into playing guitar, I started off with old school metal, and I still play metal on it today. I tought myself how to play and I pick up my skills from metal.

Wow, that is a close minded thing to say. I'm sorry to say he sounds like a stuck up git and I hate musicians like that: It really sounds like he thinks people who listen to metal are thick, which is a very stereotypical view.

Music is art, and art is expressing yourself. You can't teach someone to do that! It's like teaching art at school and college... they make you study other artists work and then produce a final piece, then you have to explain how you came to doing that final piece and encorporated all of the things you "learned". How is that expressing yourself? It's not! My playing is pretty crap and I have no "training" (which is a stupid term to apply to any art form) whatsoever... but I just do what sounds good to ME, and that's ALL that matters when it comes to music. Sure some people are technically great and know a lot of theory etc. and if that's good for them, then fine, but it doesn't make thier music any more valid that anybody elses, and they certainly shouldn't look down on other musicians and genres.

To answer your question, I don't think either way is better, it's just about what works for the individual.

Metal is the only genre that use a lot of musical techniques. In my music school, people say things like : Oh metal is so boring, metal is not good enough....and stupid shit like that. I only have to say that heavy metal (and subgenres) are filled with music techniques that make it sound good and amazing. And that's not because i like metal, it's because a lot of bands havevery tallented musicians! just take Angra for example.

For all the people who say my guitar teacher couldn't play this song or that, let me put it straight, he is extremely fast. He used to play prog and fusion before he got into jazz, so his abilities are not in question.
If he weren't very good, I'd probably not be taking lessons from him. xD

Keep discussing though, I didn't expect many responses.

I think that your teacher obviously does'nt know that much about metal which is okay because when you don't like a certain genre you don't tend to dig far in it. Metal is a type of music that demands a fair share of skill, depends what subgenre in question though. I can go to say that if you want to play black metal, you generally don't need much technique or musical knowledge, and that's not a problem because BM can be very enjoyable. But as i said before, most of the subgenres do require a certain amount of skill, and speed of course.

I'm taking lessons from a very good guitarist myself, who's teaching me classical. He really likes classical of course, but he also adores Dream Theater, Iron Maiden, Rhapsody and even KISS. Sometimes when i ask questions on musical theory he goes really deep into his explanations and mentions Dream Theater at how musically proficient they are and so on.

There's alot of metal musicians out there that know musical theory, maybe not to its best but enough to make mindblowing music. And even the ones who don't still manage to make awesome music, i'm sure of it. As said before, what matters is the passion and dedication for metal, and if you chose to dig further that's fine. I'm going to go in a musical program in college because i think it's interesting, but nothing interests me more than metal. No matter how much knowledge and how proficient your teacher is on guitar, he is wrong about metal, you can tell him that and prove it to him, just take out some Necrophagist or Spawn of Possession, Martyr or whatever.

Written by Visioneerie on 15.04.2008 at 19:39

I can go to say that if you want to play black metal, you generally don't need much technique or musical knowledge, and that's not a problem because BM can be very enjoyable.

I sure hope your not talking about drumming wise here.

Written by Doc G. on 16.04.2008 at 07:29

Written by Visioneerie on 15.04.2008 at 19:39

I can go to say that if you want to play black metal, you generally don't need much technique or musical knowledge, and that's not a problem because BM can be very enjoyable.

I sure hope your not talking about drumming wise here.

I'm sure he's referring to guitar work. Once you manage to master tremolos, its easy to play black metal. At least I find it easier, I mean you just need to know the tempos and you'll be good to go. Tremolo and speed and your good. But I also think its enjoyable.

Written by Doc G. on 16.04.2008 at 07:29

Written by Visioneerie on 15.04.2008 at 19:39

I can go to say that if you want to play black metal, you generally don't need much technique or musical knowledge, and that's not a problem because BM can be very enjoyable.

I sure hope your not talking about drumming wise here.

I'm talking about the guitarwork like BloodTears said, BM is still a genre where they use more or less the same guitar patterns after around 20 years and it isn't technical. Although i know that the drumming is very fast and precise, you have to be a human metronome.

Written by Visioneerie on 16.04.2008 at 15:29

Written by Doc G. on 16.04.2008 at 07:29

Written by Visioneerie on 15.04.2008 at 19:39

I can go to say that if you want to play black metal, you generally don't need much technique or musical knowledge, and that's not a problem because BM can be very enjoyable.

I sure hope your not talking about drumming wise here.

I'm talking about the guitarwork like BloodTears said, BM is still a genre where they use more or less the same guitar patterns after around 20 years and it isn't technical. Although i know that the drumming is very fast and precise, you have to be a human metronome.

I think black metal has one of the best drummers. Usually its basic for the guitars to be speed picking.

Written by Lord TJ on 16.04.2008 at 21:22

Written by Visioneerie on 16.04.2008 at 15:29

Written by Doc G. on 16.04.2008 at 07:29

Written by Visioneerie on 15.04.2008 at 19:39

I can go to say that if you want to play black metal, you generally don't need much technique or musical knowledge, and that's not a problem because BM can be very enjoyable.

I sure hope your not talking about drumming wise here.

I'm talking about the guitarwork like BloodTears said, BM is still a genre where they use more or less the same guitar patterns after around 20 years and it isn't technical. Although i know that the drumming is very fast and precise, you have to be a human metronome.

I think black metal has one of the best drummers. Usually its basic for the guitars to be speed picking.

A lot of black metal isn't necessarily very technical drumming, it mostly takes very good stamina and speed. For example, Belphegor generally has fairly simple drumming, and I have most of the beats and such figured out 100% in my head, its just applying it and actually being able to do top speed double bass and blast beats for a few minutes straight thats the problem.

I'm classically trained, so I really can't say much. But I incorperate a lot of theory in writing songs. I tend to use a lot of harmony, akward chords, and classical modes in Melodic Death Metal. But it is kind of frusterating when you're trying to tell your bassist to move the riff into f#, and telling the other guitarist to play the minor harmony, and you're the only one in the band that knows anything about theory.