While I agree much more with this review than that 7.2 head-shaking inducing one, it could have been a bit more informative.

Written by Papa_Ray on 19.01.2011 at 08:20

While I agree much more with this review than that 7.2 head-shaking inducing one, it could have been a bit more informative.

Thanks, I wrote a first draft that was rejected because it was a song by song review (My fault for not reading the rules). My first review goes into way more detail about which songs I liked and why. It was also about 1000 words, I think and this site only allows 500 for guest reviews. I'm used to describing one song at a time in regular conversation. This is only my first review.. I'll get the hang of being more descriptive with my full-album reviews as I write more of them, I'm sure

Written by Angelic Storm on 19.01.2011 at 05:57

Yeah, I do of course, totally agree with you about Iced Earth. Even "Framing Armageddon" had a good few redeeming moments, even if as an overall album it was lacking compared to their old classics. I think the only way Jon can pull Iced Earth out of their current rut, is to completely steer away from the bland stuff that so badly infected the last album. Whether he will, or can do that remains to be seen, but Im still waiting with baited breath for the next album to see if he still has what it takes. I have my doubts, but most bands with long careers and large discographies usually have at least one or two duds in there, so I'll let him off with TCOM if the next album is a good one.

Well, I think the extreme metal scene is it's own society really, so I cant really agree with you there. I do agree with the "will to be different" thing though. I guess how that turns into intolerance and blind fanboyism is when someone wants to be different for it's own sake, and so their opinions and criticsms are not coming from a totally honest place, but from a need to be seen as somehow "special", or "superior", and shunning the status quo (not the band!) just because. There are some people who are just different naturally and as a matter of course. And there are those who desperately want to be different, and to be seen as that. And some will compromise their integrity in order to be seen as that. I have had my opinions bashed by both elitists and mainstream band fanboys, so I do see the closed minded and intolerant mindsets displayed from both groups very much as arriving at the same place via different avenues.

Nothing to add concerning Iced Earth. I think the same.


About the will to be different and being really different, I think it is important to underline the difference between both:

1) Some people only want to be different. Sometimes so desperately they will seek attention and acceptance from other extreme metal fans or elitists. This, I find lame. They should learn to be themselves and say a big fuck off to those who mock them only for being true to themselves and not afraid to say it out loud. If you can't assume yourself and try to please others, sorry but you're a spineless poser. In my mind, all those who care for the opinion of the metal community or their own 'credibility' on something like a metal board lack the courage and independance required to assume themselves.
One way to spot them is they will usually criticize extreme genres (and what is considered as great within those genres) very little or not at all. They will bash Powermetal but won't dare to say that a Black Metal band sucks. Those people are conformists within the extreme scene.

2) Those who are really different naturally. People who have tastes that are not common, even among metalheads. People who often are a bit different in life too. People who will not be afraid to say that something sucks, no matter if it's Powermetal or Black Metal. Same if they like it.
People who assume their choices, even if it will probably piss off a few imbeciles because you have enough trust in yourself and learned to live with those who can't politely disagree or argue with civility.
Because you don't value the opinion of those who can't do better than posting insults and bitching as soon as they disagree with you and start to act like crybabies if you believe something sucks and they find it worthy.

@Ravenking: Everything you've said there is completely spot on. That is exactly the way it is, there's not really anything I can add to that. lol xD

Written by RavenKing on 19.01.2011 at 14:43

Written by Angelic Storm on 19.01.2011 at 05:57

Yeah, I do of course, totally agree with you about Iced Earth. Even "Framing Armageddon" had a good few redeeming moments, even if as an overall album it was lacking compared to their old classics. I think the only way Jon can pull Iced Earth out of their current rut, is to completely steer away from the bland stuff that so badly infected the last album. Whether he will, or can do that remains to be seen, but Im still waiting with baited breath for the next album to see if he still has what it takes. I have my doubts, but most bands with long careers and large discographies usually have at least one or two duds in there, so I'll let him off with TCOM if the next album is a good one.

Well, I think the extreme metal scene is it's own society really, so I cant really agree with you there. I do agree with the "will to be different" thing though. I guess how that turns into intolerance and blind fanboyism is when someone wants to be different for it's own sake, and so their opinions and criticsms are not coming from a totally honest place, but from a need to be seen as somehow "special", or "superior", and shunning the status quo (not the band!) just because. There are some people who are just different naturally and as a matter of course. And there are those who desperately want to be different, and to be seen as that. And some will compromise their integrity in order to be seen as that. I have had my opinions bashed by both elitists and mainstream band fanboys, so I do see the closed minded and intolerant mindsets displayed from both groups very much as arriving at the same place via different avenues.

Nothing to add concerning Iced Earth. I think the same.


About the will to be different and being really different, I think it is important to underline the difference between both:

1) Some people only want to be different. Sometimes so desperately they will seek attention and acceptance from other extreme metal fans or elitists. This, I find lame. They should learn to be themselves and say a big fuck off to those who mock them only for being true to themselves and not afraid to say it out loud. If you can't assume yourself and try to please others, sorry but you're a spineless poser. In my mind, all those who care for the opinion of the metal community or their own 'credibility' on something like a metal board lack the courage and independance required to assume themselves.
One way to spot them is they will usually criticize extreme genres (and what is considered as great within those genres) very little or not at all. They will bash Powermetal but won't dare to say that a Black Metal band sucks. Those people are conformists within the extreme scene.

2) Those who are really different naturally. People who have tastes that are not common, even among metalheads. People who often are a bit different in life too. People who will not be afraid to say that something sucks, no matter if it's Powermetal or Black Metal. Same if they like it.
People who assume their choices, even if it will probably piss off a few imbeciles because you have enough trust in yourself and learned to live with those who can't politely disagree or argue with civility.
Because you don't value the opinion of those who can't do better than posting insults and bitching as soon as they disagree with you and start to act like crybabies if you believe something sucks and they find it worthy.

Awesome post, I agree 100%. Hell, this post deserves it's own damn forum topic! I love this site, It would be boring if everyone were just robots all loving the same type of music and agreeing about everything.

@Easy772: We don't need to agree about everything, which is absolutely impossible anyway. Problem is we all have a tendency (myself included, of course) to show some intolerance at times, especially when we're in a bad mood.
Also, I think it is too easy to make our comments sound as if it would be a judgment against those who don't think like us. In a real conversation, face to face, we can intervene and exchange as soon as someone says something, so it allows us to bring nuance little by little, so reaching an agreement or disagreeing politely is much easier.

Also, imo, metalheads are, in general, passionate people. That makes it more likely to turn ugly when disagreements occur

I don't mind when people disagree with me or have an opposite opinion. What I can't stand is those who don't discuss and argue about music, albums, bands etc but choose to launch personal attacks only because they don't like your comments.
Some people have a bad habit to bring the argument on a personal level and reply to criticism at albums by criticism at your own personality.

Written by RavenKing on 20.01.2011 at 01:52

@Easy772: We don't need to agree about everything, which is absolutely impossible anyway. Problem is we all have a tendency (myself included, of course) to show some intolerance at times, especially when we're in a bad mood.
Also, I think it is too easy to make our comments sound as if it would be a judgment against those who don't think like us. In a real conversation, face to face, we can intervene and exchange as soon as someone says something, so it allows us to bring nuance little by little, so reaching an agreement or disagreeing politely is much easier.

Also, imo, metalheads are, in general, passionate people. That makes it more likely to turn ugly when disagreements occur

I don't mind when people disagree with me or have an opposite opinion. What I can't stand is those who don't discuss and argue about music, albums, bands etc but choose to launch personal attacks only because they don't like your comments.
Some people have a bad habit to bring the argument on a personal level and reply to criticism at albums by criticism at your own personality.

Yeah, so true. It's a lot easier for people to be like "How can you not be a Slayer fan and like Thrash?" or "Whoever doesn't like slayer can suck one". Metal heads are definitely passionate people, I think part of the reason I come here is because a lot of you guys/gals will actually go into detail about songs or artists. A lot of my friends irl will throw CD's out the window or complain their asses off if I'm not playing Bay Area Thrash in the car. Not all, but most of them. the only kind of conversation is "This song is fuuucking SIICK" then turn it up, it seems like their music that they cruise/smoke/drink to. Only a few of them say anything insightful or make good points about the music.

Written by Doc G. on 19.01.2011 at 06:55

Quote:
It seems like it's become trendy to dislike any music that becomes even somewhat mainstream.

Sorry to say, it's got nothing to do with trends, and more to do with quality.

As for the review...All opinions on the subject matter aside, this was a pretty dry, uninformative review; "I like the guitars, I like the bass, I lik the drums, I like the vocals, I like the songwriting. The end" is pretty much all I got from this. Too much "I like this" and not enough "Why I liked this".

To further on isolating that quote...

Iron Maiden is mainstream?

really?

i grew up in the 80's. they were "mainstream" then. MTV played them because they needed the band's audience to keep the network afloat. The band, i would argue, also put out there best material at this time. the cheerleaders in junior high in '85 and '86 wore maiden shirts to school...

They are hardly "mainstream" now.

if someone has something negative to say about them now, it is most likely not because they are "mainstream" (unless you are that genetic defective guy somewhere on the outskirts of Cleveland that cannot understand the difference between "pop" and "popular"), but rather their more recent works don't stand up to what they put out in the 80's.

i realize it is hard for some people to accept their favorite aging metal superstar favorite bands no longer put out stuff comparable to their best (not just IM here, this is pretty much across the "Metal bands nearing retirement age" board)... but, sadly, it is true.

Written by RavenKing on 20.01.2011 at 01:52
What I can't stand is those who don't discuss and argue about music, albums, bands etc but choose to launch personal attacks only because they don't like your comments.
Some people have a bad habit to bring the argument on a personal level and reply to criticism at albums by criticism at your own personality.

Yep, this is an attitude that always irks me a lot. Launching a personal attack on someone purely because they have a different opinion on a band/album, is in my mind, never justified, and highlights a very immature mindset and personality. Debating and even arguing about musical opinions is all good, and sometimes can even be engaging and fun. But once someone drags it down to the level of personal attacks, and criticising your personality purely for holding those opinions, then I wont take their opinions seriously, and give them very short shrift.

Written by BitterCOld on 22.01.2011 at 11:17

if someone has something negative to say about them now, it is most likely not because they are "mainstream" (unless you are that genetic defective guy somewhere on the outskirts of Cleveland that cannot understand the difference between "pop" and "popular"), but rather their more recent works don't stand up to what they put out in the 80's.

i realize it is hard for some people to accept their favorite aging metal superstar favorite bands no longer put out stuff comparable to their best (not just IM here, this is pretty much across the "Metal bands nearing retirement age" board)... but, sadly, it is true.

I won't argue about Maiden being mainstream or not. For me, it is obvious they are, seeing as I meet lots of people who are not even metal fans and they know Iron Maiden, teens wear Maiden shirts everywhere, etc. And their name is everywhere.
Anyway, mainstream or not, it doesn't matter. I don't dismiss bands simply because they are well-known but because well-known bands quite often release crap. It brings us to the second part of your post.

"but rather their more recent works don't stand up to what they put out in the 80's.", you said.
I think, in the end, it all comes down to this. With those old 80s bands, there's often such a huge difference in quality between old and new stuff, I wonder how some people can be oblivious to it. Many times, listening to the old makes it impossible for me to listen to the new because it's so boring in comparison that listening to it is an auditive ordeal.

Like you, I think lots of people have trouble accepting that those old bands will never release anything comparable to their best material. People are simply unable to turn the page. If you're looking for new stuff, the future lies in young bands, not in bands who will retire soon and barely did anything worth listening to in over 20 years.
Even if you're nostalgic about the 80s and wish for some '80s revival' or the 'old spirit', I think the solution to this would be new bands playing and sounding old school, doing it with exuberance and passion, and not old metal musicians who could be your grandfather.
Let's face it: the musical world is, to a certain extent, a revolving door. And some of those old bands are an obstacle to its operation by staying there instead of leaving the place to others.

Also, it is ironic that few persons cared for all those old bands in the 90s, considered them dead and turned the page, while so many people don't want those bands to quit now. There's quite an amount of revisionism and 'leapfrog to the past' when it comes to old metal bands these days.

Written by BitterCOld on 22.01.2011 at 11:17

Written by Doc G. on 19.01.2011 at 06:55

Quote:
It seems like it's become trendy to dislike any music that becomes even somewhat mainstream.

Sorry to say, it's got nothing to do with trends, and more to do with quality.

As for the review...All opinions on the subject matter aside, this was a pretty dry, uninformative review; "I like the guitars, I like the bass, I lik the drums, I like the vocals, I like the songwriting. The end" is pretty much all I got from this. Too much "I like this" and not enough "Why I liked this".

To further on isolating that quote...

Iron Maiden is mainstream?

really?

i grew up in the 80's. they were "mainstream" then. MTV played them because they needed the band's audience to keep the network afloat. The band, i would argue, also put out there best material at this time. the cheerleaders in junior high in '85 and '86 wore maiden shirts to school...

They are hardly "mainstream" now.

if someone has something negative to say about them now, it is most likely not because they are "mainstream" (unless you are that genetic defective guy somewhere on the outskirts of Cleveland that cannot understand the difference between "pop" and "popular"), but rather their more recent works don't stand up to what they put out in the 80's.

i realize it is hard for some people to accept their favorite aging metal superstar favorite bands no longer put out stuff comparable to their best (not just IM here, this is pretty much across the "Metal bands nearing retirement age" board)... but, sadly, it is true.

I didn't mean that Maiden wasn't mainstream, (Even Today I would say they are still mainstream- they did hit #1 in like 30 countries with this one right? ) the point of that statement was more to address the fact that it is trendy nowadays to dislike commercially successful music. I hate commercial music if I feel the artist has sold out or simplified their music, I don't think they've done either here though.

I'll of course agree with you that their 80's stuff was better, I wasn't grading it compared to their old stuff. I tried to judge it as an individual piece of work. I understand the rating of 7.5 if that's how you viewed this piece though. Bruce's voice is starting to go though, kinda sad about that.

Must have been awesome to grow up during Maidens prime! My first album by them was Fear Of The Dark
even though "Judas Be My Guide" was a sick track.

"It seems like it's become trendy to dislike any music that becomes even somewhat mainstream."

i disagree with this being said in the context of this album. i liked A Matter of Life and Death, it really had some great tracks(first 2, the Reincarnation, etc.) but this is way too much. i appreciate them experimenting with the 4-minute intro, but if they're gonna do something, why not do it GOOD? this album is a bad joke and a stain on Maiden's legacy, one of the few truly bad albums they ever wrote, and it'll take quite a masterwork for me to regain my trust in this band. notice i'm not saying they suck because they are mainstream, but because this album is a sonic shitfest and 10 minutes of listening to it seem more like 10 hours.

and btw, they have been in the metal mainstream for almost 30 years now, and they have become one of the biggest rock bands in the whole world. how does that possibly mean there's a "trend" for people to dislike Maiden or the fact they've gone mainstream? during these 30 years they sold more albums than any other metal band aside from Metallica and Scorpions. even this album went gold in 8 countries and platinum in Finland. where are all these "haters" you are talking about? on the internet?

Written by Valentin B on 13.03.2011 at 14:09

"It seems like it's become trendy to dislike any music that becomes even somewhat mainstream."

i disagree with this being said in the context of this album. i liked A Matter of Life and Death, it really had some great tracks(first 2, the Reincarnation, etc.) but this is way too much. i appreciate them experimenting with the 4-minute intro, but if they're gonna do something, why not do it GOOD? this album is a bad joke and a stain on Maiden's legacy, one of the few truly bad albums they ever wrote, and it'll take quite a masterwork for me to regain my trust in this band. notice i'm not saying they suck because they are mainstream, but because this album is a sonic shitfest and 10 minutes of listening to it seem more like 10 hours.

and btw, they have been in the metal mainstream for almost 30 years now, and they have become one of the biggest rock bands in the whole world. how does that possibly mean there's a "trend" for people to dislike Maiden or the fact they've gone mainstream? during these 30 years they sold more albums than any other metal band aside from Metallica and Scorpions. even this album went gold in 8 countries and platinum in Finland. where are all these "haters" you are talking about? on the internet?

I guess it is a well-known fact on this board that I utterly dislike Iron Maiden nowadays and think all their albums after SSOASS suck.

What is much less known is the fact I was a huge Maiden fan in the 80s. And I would go as far as saying I was a Maiden fanboy until around the time they released "Fear Of The Dark".
And Maiden were very popular back then, they were everywhere. The name and imagery were already known to everyone, even 'mainstream' people who hated Metal and thought it was Satan's music. So, my dislike and despise of Iron Maiden have nothing to do with them being popular and mainstream. They were already very popular and already belonged to the mainstream Metal category when I loved them so many years ago.
Anyway, as for popularity, Maiden were much more popular in the 80s than in the 90s, when they were nearly dead.

No, my dislike and despise of Iron Maiden can be explained by completely different reasons.

Back in the 80s, Maiden released only good albums, varied enough to keep things interesting, while at the same time always true to their roots. There was passion in the music. They reached the peak of their creativity with SSOASS and it was hard to imagine this band could ever be bad.

Then they came with the shitty "No Prayer For The Dying". A so disappointing album after SSOASS. Since I was a fanboy then, I defended the band and was sure the next would be better.

I was wrong. After that, they released the so uneven "Fear Of The Dark", with a few good moments and many moments of utter shittiness. Believe it or not, even if the album was a huge disappointment and I could barely stand it, I still defended the band. Because I was a fanboy in the denial phase.

Then came the change of vocalist and Maiden released 2 albums of total crappiness I could not defend without sacrificing my integrity. I gave up. For me, the band was dead and buried. Add to this that they started releasing lives and compilations in the 90s, containing mostly the same old songs over and over. It was obvious to me that they started to live on their past because their present sucked.

Then we got news about Dickinson coming back to Maiden. I wasn't excited at all. After all, the last albums with him on vocals sucked (I wasn't a deluded fanboy any longer since "The X Factor" and accepted the idea that everything after SSOASS sucked).
I listened to the album out of pure curiosity. It was boring, bland, no more than a failed attempt at trying to recapture their 80s glory after a decade of complete crappiness.

All the albums after BNW were only getting worse and worse. Totally uninspired, bland, boring. Nothing worthy. Only an excuse to tour again and again and play their old songs live. And it is still like that to this day.

Conclusion: My dislike and despise of Iron Maiden has nothing to do with them being mainstream or popular but because I sincerely think they suck musically and released nothing really worth listening to after SSOASS. I think they desperately try to stay relevant way past their time. They might be still popular and all but it doesn't change the fact I see them as pathetic old has-beens who should have called a quit long ago. They just spoil their legacy and milk their fans by releasing nothing but crap.

Written by Valentin B on 13.03.2011 at 14:09

"It seems like it's become trendy to dislike any music that becomes even somewhat mainstream."

i disagree with this being said in the context of this album. i liked A Matter of Life and Death, it really had some great tracks(first 2, the Reincarnation, etc.) but this is way too much. i appreciate them experimenting with the 4-minute intro, but if they're gonna do something, why not do it GOOD? this album is a bad joke and a stain on Maiden's legacy, one of the few truly bad albums they ever wrote, and it'll take quite a masterwork for me to regain my trust in this band. notice i'm not saying they suck because they are mainstream, but because this album is a sonic shitfest and 10 minutes of listening to it seem more like 10 hours.

and btw, they have been in the metal mainstream for almost 30 years now, and they have become one of the biggest rock bands in the whole world. how does that possibly mean there's a "trend" for people to dislike Maiden or the fact they've gone mainstream? during these 30 years they sold more albums than any other metal band aside from Metallica and Scorpions. even this album went gold in 8 countries and platinum in Finland. where are all these "haters" you are talking about? on the internet?

If your read the rest of the comments, I also agree that Iron Maiden are mainstream. I didn't like the intro either, but it's not an album killer. There is definitely an element in the metal community that thinks it trendy or "elite" ( I guess would have been a better word for it) to dislike the "comeback bands", though I of course acknowledge the fact that there are people who truly didn't like this album for the content and I'm not pointing fingers at anyone in particular. I've met a lot of people that don't like any of the new Maiden stuff but think the old stuff is sacred, though it seems like they aren't really giving the new stuff a chance. Actually, on the internet this album has gotten i'd say 90% positive reviews from the sites I've visited. At the same time, I understand that among zealous metal heads the feedback has kind of been an either loved it or hated it kind of thing.

Written by Death To Posers on 13.03.2011 at 22:14

There is definitely an element in the metal community that thinks it trendy or "elite" ( I guess would have been a better word for it) to dislike the "comeback bands"

It depends on the comeback. Imo, Kreator have done it reasonably well. But most bands don't succeed at it.

Written by RavenKing on 13.03.2011 at 23:21

Written by Death To Posers on 13.03.2011 at 22:14

There is definitely an element in the metal community that thinks it trendy or "elite" ( I guess would have been a better word for it) to dislike the "comeback bands"

It depends on the comeback. Imo, Kreator have done it reasonably well. But most bands don't succeed at it.

yeah, I understand where you're coming from. Kreator's new albums are hard as fuck.