Jordison is a very good drummer but come on, he's pretty far from being the best in metal... Have you forgotten about people like Dave Lombardo, Gene Hoglan, Pete Sandoval...

One word: Hellhammer! he is for sure the best drumer ever, along with Frost

Because......."Alt. Metal" (which is an oxymoron) is utter blasphemy! "Alt. Metal" = Nu-Metal therefore it is POSER. And this is a TRUE METAL site. I hope that answers the question.

Written by [user id=160] on 01.06.2006 at 04:11

Because......."Alt. Metal" (which is an oxymoron) is utter blasphemy! "Alt. Metal" = Nu-Metal therefore it is POSER. And this is a TRUE METAL site. I hope that answers the question.

Have you read any of this thread?

I wish I had a dollar for every metal cementhead who thinks that somehow alternative metal encompasses exclusively "nu-metal"...

See back to my previous post regarding 'metalheads' and 'openmindedness.'

Written by BitterCOld on 01.06.2006 at 06:43

Written by [user id=160] on 01.06.2006 at 04:11

Because......."Alt. Metal" (which is an oxymoron) is utter blasphemy! "Alt. Metal" = Nu-Metal therefore it is POSER. And this is a TRUE METAL site. I hope that answers the question.

Have you read any of this thread?

I wish I had a dollar for every metal cementhead who thinks that somehow alternative metal encompasses exclusively "nu-metal"...

See back to my previous post regarding 'metalheads' and 'openmindedness.'

Eh I thought he was being sarcastic

Written by [user id=160] on 01.06.2006 at 04:11

Because......."Alt. Metal" (which is an oxymoron) is utter blasphemy! "Alt. Metal" = Nu-Metal therefore it is POSER. And this is a TRUE METAL site. I hope that answers the question.

I'm not sure if you read the previous posts on this thread? Many people had some pretty good things to say concerning this idea, the idea that a massive "genre" -which is more like a miscellanious description for things that don't fit with our preconceived notions of what other genres are- can be defined by the likes of its most well-known and infamous bands, i.e., Slipknot or KoRn.

Anyways, this idea that TRUE METAL is the only metal and ALT METAL is "blasphemy" is just plain silly. Pointing fingers? Calling Alternative bands posers? I wonder if this is some sort of cover for your own ways, because I don't think a real music fan would write off an entire realm of music as worthless or POSER. A real fan of music listens not because it is TRUE, but because it is MUSIC. Plain and simple. I could give one shit less how anyone defines a band. I care about the quality. I got into metal because I admired the musicians, the lyrics, the concepts, the originality. I didn't get into metal because it's TRUE or because of some image or rule that other so-called fans decide is law.

So I think it's time to decide: do you care more about opening your mind to music that you might find enjoyable, music that might be profound - or do you care about maintaining the limitations of being "true"?

Actually, technically now the term alternative metal does describe a particular type of metal, but it is not nu metal. Its used for bands like Life Of Agony or Therapy?. Alt Metal was indeed a blanket term back in the 80s, but its not anymore.

Although really, how you choose to use it is up to you, you could either see it as a particluar strain of post-grunge metal or as a term describing bands from many genres, including industrial, nu, noisecore etc.

I bloody well hope danzig111 was aiming at sarcasm, otherwise that's just rather stupid of him to say that

@jupitreas, that's true after a fashion, but I still see a lot of people grouping stoner, noisecore, hardcore crossover metal, industrial, metalcore, and various other forms as simply "alternative". Which, while true, that they are an alternative to mainstream metal, is a very vague blanket term.

Of course, such vague grouping serves the purposes of "true" metalheads who can then bash all "alternative" bands as "gay" and "untrue". Much simpler for the simple minds to bash just "alternative" than to bash all those subgenres specifically...

This of course leads to the ultimate categorisation of all metal music as either "true" or "untrue", how wonderful.

If "alternative metal" is inherently "untr00", and contains a huge swath of styles and bands that are pigeonholed into one label and defined by the sounds of Korn and Slipknot, does that therefore enable me to lump all the vaious genres that comprise "tr00" metal (BM, DM, Power metal, Prog metal, etc) into one lump mass of crap whose sound is defined by Man-O-Cheese and Dimmu Borgir?

I listened to "blow your speakers", worst fucking song I ever heard... TRUE METAL IS CRAP!


(that was my mocking impersonation of the 'tr00' kiddies that have bothered to visit this thread. This subsequent explanation is to guarantee that my sarcasm is properly received as such and not to be treated as gospel!)

what's on here? this was about alternative metal XD, well i'd define alternative metal as underground not unpopular, I think it's cuz the alternative metal genre isn't catchy at all and has hard or weird music estructures similar to progressive sometimes

Maybe because this bands are not easy to listen....bands like burst, isis, Cult of luna, neurosis, yob, jesu, Ephel duath, Ulver are not that kind of bands that impress mutch peopple at the first listen.
this type of bands require time and atention to became beauty.....but wen we get into this kind of strangeness it´s like a drug and we became to like this kind of sound even at the first listen because it is different from ordinary sound.
Burst rules

Written by [user id=2031] on 01.06.2006 at 06:55

Written by [user id=160] on 01.06.2006 at 04:11

Because......."Alt. Metal" (which is an oxymoron) is utter blasphemy! "Alt. Metal" = Nu-Metal therefore it is POSER. And this is a TRUE METAL site. I hope that answers the question.

I'm not sure if you read the previous posts on this thread? Many people had some pretty good things to say concerning this idea, the idea that a massive "genre" -which is more like a miscellanious description for things that don't fit with our preconceived notions of what other genres are- can be defined by the likes of its most well-known and infamous bands, i.e., Slipknot or KoRn.

Anyways, this idea that TRUE METAL is the only metal and ALT METAL is "blasphemy" is just plain silly. Pointing fingers? Calling Alternative bands posers? I wonder if this is some sort of cover for your own ways, because I don't think a real music fan would write off an entire realm of music as worthless or POSER. A real fan of music listens not because it is TRUE, but because it is MUSIC. Plain and simple. I could give one shit less how anyone defines a band. I care about the quality. I got into metal because I admired the musicians, the lyrics, the concepts, the originality. I didn't get into metal because it's TRUE or because of some image or rule that other so-called fans decide is law.

So I think it's time to decide: do you care more about opening your mind to music that you might find enjoyable, music that might be profound - or do you care about maintaining the limitations of being "true"?

implying that i'm a poser hey? lol simply rediculous! i don't decide the rules, and there's nothing wrong with referring to another genre as something as long as it is the truth, which is what i pointed out.

and also i listen to other music besides metal, ever heard ov The Fray? i like them...i also like Techno-Industrial and Dark Ambient........and i listen to Death Metal as well as Power metal (which is something that a 'close-minded person' would be incapable ov doing bcuz they are 2 different extremes!)......oh yes annnd yes you're right, musicianship does matter which is why i'm into "True Metal" bcuz bands that can be classified as that tend to be musically more open-minded than these so called 'alternative bands' they're more orgional! i mean think about it....musically compare Rhapsody, Finntroll and Blind Guardian to bands such as Chimaira, Shadows Fall and Unearth..........who's fan base has the most close-minded persons? hmmm i wonder......

yes i might have worded my opinion arrogantly and maybe rudely but that doesn't mean my notions are 'preconceaved' as you call it. okay?

" yes annnd yes you're right, musicianship does matter which is why i'm into "True Metal" bcuz bands that can be classified as that tend to be musically more open-minded than these so called 'alternative bands' they're more orgional! i mean think about it....musically compare Rhapsody, Finntroll and Blind Guardian to bands such as Chimaira, Shadows Fall and Unearth..........who's fan base has the most close-minded persons? hmmm i wonder......"

well, with your response you've made it more than abundantly clear...

Musicianmanship? You list that as criterion, yet cite Darkthrone on your favorite bands list... I'm sorry, but if I can pick up a fender and learn songs like "Transylvanian Hunger" in under five minutes, musicianmanship is not a key attribute of the artist...

Tell me about the bands that have been listed in this thread by alternative metal fans. What has your exposure to those been?

List 25 various alternative metal bands covering MULTIPLE 'SUB GENRES' (sorry, listing Slipknot and two dozen more nu-metal clones doesn't cut it) that you have listened to, what you disliked about them, and I might take your opinion vaguely seriously (actually, no I won't because of that pathetic initial post), but will at least acknowledge and give you credit for trying.

How do you know how good the guys from "Chimaira, Shadows Fall and Unearth" really are though? They just CHOOSE not to show off their abilities and instead focus on making the sort of music that has meaning for them.

Personally, I couldnt care less about musicianship. Its not how well you know your theory and how nimble your fingers are, its how you use the instrument to achieve something that you want to achieve. Some of the best and most important music ever (especially in the rock genre) was recorded by people who had absolutely no idea about musicla theory and no technical abilities to speak of...

EDIT: LOL, looks like Bitter COld beat me and posted first.

Written by BitterCOld on 01.06.2006 at 06:43

Written by [user id=160] on 01.06.2006 at 04:11

Because......."Alt. Metal" (which is an oxymoron) is utter blasphemy! "Alt. Metal" = Nu-Metal therefore it is POSER. And this is a TRUE METAL site. I hope that answers the question.

Have you read any of this thread?

I wish I had a dollar for every metal cementhead who thinks that somehow alternative metal encompasses exclusively "nu-metal"...

See back to my previous post regarding 'metalheads' and 'openmindedness.'

CementHead? hahah oh that's rich! i would say a load ov things to you but the rules on this site are evry tight and strict.......so all i'll say to you is this......Alt. metal does only encompass Nu-Metal and HardCore (bere in mind i ONLY judge things SOLELY on what i observe!)

Written by [user id=160] on 02.06.2006 at 02:07

Alt. metal does only encompass Nu-Metal and HardCore (bere in mind i ONLY judge things SOLELY on what i observe!)

How about funk metal, post punk, industrial metal, sludge metal, grunge, post-grunge, noisecore, drone, rap metal (no, thats not the same as nu metal) etc?
They are all alternative metal, what on Earth are you smoking to come up with these conclusions? If you judge solely what you observe, your vision must be severely obscured...

Hey Bittercold, why do you waste your time defending "Alt. Metal" if you don't give a damn about it? you DON'T care about it right? like you don't listen to it right? lol why in the fuck are you fighting me on this?!

any why would listing a bunch ov Nu-Metal bands 'not cover it'? if they are Alt. Metal too?

It's like i said before bcuz i worded it rudely doesn't mean that i am wrong! And saying negative things about a genre doesn't make you close-minded!

So then, Daznig 1/6th of evil, what do you qualify Godflesh, Pelican, SUNN O))), Kyuss, Sleep, Red Harvest and HeadControlSystem as?

Under what genre do they fill the bill, seeing as they are neither HC nor Nu-Metal, by your definition they clearly are not alternative metal.

Written by jupitreas on 02.06.2006 at 02:13

Written by [user id=160] on 02.06.2006 at 02:07

Alt. metal does only encompass Nu-Metal and HardCore (bere in mind i ONLY judge things SOLELY on what i observe!)

How about funk metal, post punk, industrial metal, sludge metal, grunge, post-grunge, noisecore, drone, rap metal (no, thats not the same as nu metal) etc?
They are all alternative metal, what on Earth are you smoking to come up with these conclusions? If you judge solely what you observe, your vision must be severely obscured...

oh okay, Industrial Metal and Funk Metal.....so i missed them out, but wtf about the other genres?! Rap metal not the same as Nu-Metal? yeah right! Yeah they have their own individual traits, well so does Power Metal and Heavy/Power Metal but it still means the same shit!

Post Punk? Grunge? those are Metal?

And yes it is on what i observe! cuz everytime i coem to this damn forum it's always 3892832783467863801 topics about a bunch ov 'MTV Bands'.

Written by [user id=160] on 02.06.2006 at 02:17

Hey Bittercold, why do you waste your time defending "Alt. Metal" if you don't give a damn about it? you DON'T care about it right? like you don't listen to it right? lol why in the fuck are you fighting me on this?!

any why would listing a bunch ov Nu-Metal bands 'not cover it'? if they are Alt. Metal too?

It's like i said before bcuz i worded it rudely doesn't mean that i am wrong! And saying negative things about a genre doesn't make you close-minded!

I will agree with you on the point that "bcuz" (sic) you worded it rudely doesn't mean you were wrong... the fact you are writing wildly inaccurate statements about a widespread genre that you clearly don't understand makes you wrong.

Yes, of course they are metal. Killing Joke definitely IS metal, they would be the first to admit this. Same for Alice In Chains, for example..
Dumping Rap Metal and Nu Metal into the same category does show that you are close minded, I am afraid.

As for the rest of your post, I didnt understand what you mean. So what if there are so many topics about these bands?

Written by BitterCOld on 02.06.2006 at 02:18

So then, Daznig 1/6th of evil, what do you qualify Godflesh, Pelican, SUNN O))), Kyuss, Sleep, Red Harvest and HeadControlSystem as?

Under what genre do they fill the bill, seeing as they are neither HC nor Nu-Metal, by your definition they clearly are not alternative metal.

to be honest, i've never heard more than 2 songs from each ov those bands but genre-wise i'd say this:

Godflesh: Industrial Rock (or Industrial Metal) right?
Pelican: aren't they Prog?
Sunn O))): Doom Metal?
Kyuss: Stoner Rock?
Sleep: not familiar with them sorry......
Red Harvest: Industrial Metal?
HeadControlSystem: never heard ov them.....

Ok, now that you've developed sub-genres for some of these bands, under what category on this site would they fall?

Melodic?

Extreme?

or Alternative?

Written by [user id=160] on 02.06.2006 at 02:20

And yes it is on what i observe! cuz everytime i coem to this damn forum it's always 3892832783467863801 topics about a bunch ov 'MTV Bands'.

Why is every band that is different from the usual metal genres an MTV band? I haven't seen many bands in this subforum on MTV, maybe one or two, but that's it.

And I don't get what's so wrong about being different than the rest. There are really some cool bands out there that don't even closely sound like the regular metal.

I think the main reason why people don't like Alternative Metal is because most of them don't even know properly what Alternative Metal is about... They immediately associate it with Nu Metal, commercial metal bands and MTV. (I think, after reading previous posts those silly statements already have been made)

But Alternative Metal is something completely different and so much more than that!
Here is some more explanation about it, it is far from accurate but at least it shows where Alternative Metal should be situated :
"At its outset, alternative metal was a style united by its nonconformist sensibility rather than any immediately classifiable sound. Heavy metal was at the core of the music, but the bands were too offbeat and their influences too eclectic to fit into the thrash underground, so their main audiences were mostly alternative fans who liked heavy guitar rock. However, after grunge helped make alternative metal more palatable to mass audiences, it became the most popular style of heavy metal in the '90s, particularly when more aggressive bands began standardizing its sound. That approach was a far cry from alternative metal's early days in the late '80s, when it represented the least categorizable heavy music around. By that time, most surviving hardcore punk bands had moved into metal territory, pushing underground hard-guitar-rock bands to look elsewhere for inspiration. The first wave of alternative metal bands fused heavy metal with prog-rock (Jane's Addiction, Primus), garage punk (Soundgarden, Corrosion of Conformity), noise-rock (the Jesus Lizard, Helmet), funk (Faith No More, Living Colour), rap (Faith No More, Biohazard), industrial (Ministry, Nine Inch Nails), psychedelia (Soundgarden, Monster Magnet), and even world music (later Sepultura). There was no real "scene," just an increased willingness to experiment with a form that had grown overly reliant on pure instrumental technique. Some of those bands eventually broke out to wider audiences, often with help from the Lollapalooza tour, and they also set the stage for a new wave of alt-metal that emerged around 1993-94, centered around the rap-metal fusions of Rage Against the Machine and Korn, the grindingly dissonant Tool, the heavily production-reliant White Zombie, and the popular breakthrough of Nine Inch Nails. These bands would become the most influential forces in shaping the sound and style of alternative metal for the rest of the '90s, along with Pantera, whose thick, molten riffs sounded like no other thrash-metal band. Like many alt-metal bands, Pantera was serious, bleak, and inward-looking, but they demonstrated how to be macho about it. By the latter half of the '90s, most new alt-metal bands were playing some combination of simplified thrash, rap, industrial, hardcore punk, and grunge. This new sound was more about grinding textures and intense aggression than hooks or memorable riffs, and accordingly relied more on studio production to achieve its force; however, it captured the adolescent machismo that has long been mainstream metal's stock in trade, and accordingly became a commercial juggernaut. Korn, Marilyn Manson, and Limp Bizkit were the biggest stars of this new movement -- sometimes dubbed aggro-metal, nu-metal, or (incorrectly) hardcore -- and by the end of the decade, countless new bands were performing that style in a major-label feeding frenzy similar to the proliferation of hair metal bands in the late '80s (ironic, given alternative metal's vehement rejection of hair metal's attitude).(http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=77:2697, or you can always read more here on wikipedia)

And like jupitreas said, Alternative Metal contains a lot of sub genres. Most known are Funk Metal, Industrial Metal, Rap Metal, Stoner Metal, Punk Metal and also Nu Metal.

I myself like quite a few Alternative Metal bands like Therapy? and Life Of Agony (they used to be called Alternative, but in fact they're rather Heavy Metal/Hard Rock), (older) Rage Against The Machine, Tool, System Of A Down, With Broken Wings (also Indie), Underoath (also Post Harcore), Sinch and Soundgarden (also Grunge).

I know I'm late with this, but "alt metal only encompasses nu metal and hardcore"?!? danzig111, could you tell me what drugs you're using so I might try them as well.

Hardcore is hardcore punk, yes punk.

Every other form of, hmm how to put this nicely, prejudice on danzig's posts has been rather succesfully adressed thus far, so I'll just go into a corner and try to decide whether to cry or laugh.

Written by BitterCOld on 02.06.2006 at 02:31

Ok, now that you've developed sub-genres for some of these bands, under what category on this site would they fall?

Melodic?

Extreme?

or Alternative?

Prog belongs in Melodic.........Doom is one ov those weird genres, it's either Melodic or Extreme........but yes Industrial Metal does belong in the Alternative Metal section, that is true. But Stoner Rock belongs in the Hard Rock section i believe!

@ Ur-Nammu: lol drugs aren't my thing man, and no hardcore is not hardcore punk hardcore is like Atreyu, Darkest Hour....those kind ov bands. And Nu-Metal encompasses itself, Rap Metal and sometimes even Industrial Rock / Metal.....and that's mostly the kind ov music featured in the Alternative Forum. And did you say that people are being 'prejudice' against my post/s? lol

Saying all hardcore is like Atreyu, Darkest Hour, etc.. is basically the same as saying all metal is like Korn and Slipknot. Thats just the mainstream crap floating around the surface of the genre. You seem to be terribly misinformed about most stuff that falls under the blanket term of "alternative" metal.

well, the term "alternative" metal is a total nonesense when we fall into a more serious discussion... It's stupit to put Stoner, Nu, Metalcore and Industrial in the same bag you know...

EDIT: On the other hand, I'm really annoyed about how some people take such a liberty to comment in this thread, without knowing anything... I confess that I don't know almost anything about the Alternative Metal genres, I just enjoy a few bands but I don't have real ideas about the style they play, influences, conections etc... Jupitras had had to correct me thousands of times when I dare to say something owm about this shit hehehe, but I couldn't care less... music is about liking, not about understanding. I freakin' love groups like Korn, Unearth, Ministry, even stuff like Hatebreed!!!, and I think the only, and I mean the ONLY reason for which this bands are so underrated in these kind of ambients, is prejudice.

"alternative metal" is, to me, a catch-all term for various subgenres which fail to adhere to stricter formulas of other genres.

Unfortunately, people gauge the entirety of the genre based upon a few popular bands in a popular subgenre...

I tried to allude to it being the same injustice as lumping all "tr00" metal in a pile and saying Man-O-Cheese is representative of the entirety of the various subgenres.

Man-O-War is NOT representative of Enslaved, Nile, Darkthrone, Morbid Angel, or Bathory

Slipknot is NOT representative of Godflesh, Red Harvest, Kyuss, HCS, or Faith No More

If you cannot grasp those two simple statements, perhaps you should consider not posting here - at least stop until you have listened to a lot of the alt-metal bands with which you are unfamiliar.