Written by BitterCOld on 24.09.2008 at 03:07
maybe the lyrics are just too complex for you. that's cool. stick with your songs about swords and hammers and magic spells or whatever. no point in challenging yourself.

Challenging? It's everyday interpersonal relationship bullshit wrapped up in metaphor to make it sound smart. Yawn. But that's just me.

Written by totaliteraliter on 24.09.2008 at 07:51

Written by BitterCOld on 24.09.2008 at 03:07
maybe the lyrics are just too complex for you. that's cool. stick with your songs about swords and hammers and magic spells or whatever. no point in challenging yourself.

Challenging? It's everyday interpersonal relationship bullshit wrapped up in metaphor to make it sound smart. Yawn. But that's just me.

and yet it is not as nice and sugar coated as the other forms of metal to which it was being compared... interpersonal bullshit wrapped in metaphor is still more challenging than a straight forward comic book.

but hey, to each their own.

Written by BitterCOld on 24.09.2008 at 07:41

first off, this thread has toned down considerably since the opening days.

second of all, how do you think I would be received if I went into a Manowar thread and said "Manowar is, well, gay. There is nothing more faggy than a Manowar album cover."

think civil discourse would follow that?

i don't. which is why, even though i think Manowar is horribly homoerotic, i don't post on their thread.

if people who clearly have minimal to no grasp on alternative metal post on this thread, posting ill-informed negative comments regarding the subgenres which make up Alt-metal they open themselves up to rebuttal.

if you post serious reasons as to why you dislike the genre, that is fine. if you cannot get beyond using words like "nu", "gay", or "faggy", i don't feel the need to even attempt to be pleasant in my counterarguments with you.

How would be you be received? Depends on the website you go to. Here in Metal Storm, there is a sizable group of people who dislike Manowar for various reasons, so you may not find yourself as antagonized as you might think. If you go to a website like MA, then you are right, you will probably get shitted on but you don't post in MA, so that is not an issue.

You can do whatever you want with your time but I'm just saying that people are gonna do what they want and getting upset plus wasting time rebutting some half-baked post from some dude who can't even write properly is not gonna make much of a dent. I'm just giving you some friendly advice so this thread doesn't get locked because one of these days these conversations will degenerate into a pissing constest of major proportions.

Quote:

Quote:

Written by DevilBabi on 24.09.2008 at 04:22

Okay, then I do find it strange that you have Death Magnetic listed as your favourite album.
Because the RECORDING (so not talking about the songs as such) is way too loud (being in the red all the time), has no dynamics to it, and literally does buzz all the time. And soundwise it is only slightly better than St. Anger.


Another thing I find surprsing is that you also list Pantera as one of your favourites because especially Far Beyond Driven is an aural asssault of unprecedented magnitude and epitomises the state of thrash at the time.

You hate thrash yet list Pantera & Metallica amongst your favourites. I guess with Pantera you mean the albums they recorded with Phil from Cowboys From Hell till they split. And for Metallica I guess you would also include the first four (which were totally thrash)

Intersting conclusion, however, i turn my levels down on all my stereos where possible. So bass is always booming, but high range is turned down and selected low range to help with that . I usually stick to low range, and avoid high range all together. Trble levels down as far as possible etc. That's also the reason i dont like trance the high range in that gives me a killer head ache man. I cannot hear any reverbs through the Death Magnetic, however, that may be why. All my high ranges are low.

Pantera, although i feel i dont have to explain my musical choices to anyone, is an exception to the rule. I still dont enjoy thrash metal and in my eyes, do not consider Pantera to be thrash. Actaully, i dont consider Pantera to be part of any genre, Their defiantely in a league of their own, if you'd like a further in depth conversation about my genre grouping, pm baby, i can talk for days.
And your correct, albums with Phill.

The first four Metallica albums, I do NOT like. And if by the first four you mean,
And Justice For all - I only like 1 song and its the one every one else likes, One. Besides that, the rest of the album is complete wank thrash shit. Cant stand it.
Then there's Kill 'Em All. Nope cant stand that album either.
Also, Master of Puppets, nope nothing on there i like either.
Ride the lightening - Only like 3 songs off that, wait no, make that 2. The rest, in MY OPINION AND MY OPINION ONLY, complete crap.
CANNOT stand St Anger hate that album also,
but i love love love teh standards and thats what makes them MY fav band.
The standards i like are
Re-Load, Load, Metallica and Death Magnetic.

Thanks for the explanation, now your earlier post (the one I quoted) makes sense to me.

Written by BitterCOld on 24.09.2008 at 03:07

long post

I can pull thousands of meanings for the same song out of my ass...but who cares? Alternative Metal is unpopular here because people don't fucking like it, I don't have energy for more debate.

Written by [user id=33438] on 24.09.2008 at 22:46

Written by BitterCOld on 24.09.2008 at 03:07

long post

I can pull thousands of meanings for the same song out of my ass...but who cares? Alternative Metal is unpopular here because people don't fucking like it, I don't have energy for more debate.

lol.

I think it has something to do with "metal pride" as well...lemme explain.

When I was in highschool, like 14 or 15 (which is 12 or 13 years ago) I admit I listened to all kinds of Alternative metal music because that was all I knew. I confess I listened to things like Korn and early Machine Head but thats sort of how you learn and progress into better music. Everyone has to start somewhere and unlike many older guys around here I didnt start off with Black Sabbath and Led Zeppelin. You listen to the shit people play in school, I even went through a Manson phase with "Antichrist Superstar" and at that stage I thought it was freekin AMAZING.

And as the years go by and your life takes twists and turns you end up hearing things you never knew existed and I eventually went to live in the UK for 2 years where the turn-around came for me metal-wise - I got exposed to such and overload of really really good METAL and knew that it was what I always longed for. And since then I cant even IMAGINE how I could listen to the crap I used to like Im almost ashamed of liking things like Slipknot back in 1999 but hey, guess I grew up and grew out of the teen angst and wanted music which actually had something to it.

So to get back to my "metal pride" thing, I think many people in this thread (myself included) feel they sort of reserve the rights to say alternative metal sucks, because I suppose there are other like me who used to listen to it and from personal experience can confirm that its utter garbage.

People progress in their taste of music, thats what id like to believe anyway, and when people rave about new shitty alternative bands or things like System of a Down Im like "meh...i went through all that and seriously its not really good at ALL". And usually in these forums when the whole "alternative" thing comes up I just turn a cold shoulder because I tell myself "dont worry, whoever listens to this shit will EVENTUALLY realize that its not all that and feel embarrased the way I do." lol

So I guess its fine to listen to it, as long as you dont make a scene about it and pretend to be the most badass metalhead in the universe and realise that what you're listening to isnt even a patch on what actual metal is all about - and hopefully someday you will realise it.

Written by [user id=1909] on 13.10.2008 at 16:21

I think it has something to do with "metal pride" as well...lemme explain.

When I was in highschool, like 14 or 15 (which is 12 or 13 years ago) I admit I listened to all kinds of Alternative metal music because that was all I knew. I confess I listened to things like Korn and early Machine Head but thats sort of how you learn and progress into better music. Everyone has to start somewhere and unlike many older guys around here I didnt start off with Black Sabbath and Led Zeppelin. You listen to the shit people play in school, I even went through a Manson phase with "Antichrist Superstar" and at that stage I thought it was freekin AMAZING.

And as the years go by and your life takes twists and turns you end up hearing things you never knew existed and I eventually went to live in the UK for 2 years where the turn-around came for me metal-wise - I got exposed to such and overload of really really good METAL and knew that it was what I always longed for. And since then I cant even IMAGINE how I could listen to the crap I used to like Im almost ashamed of liking things like Slipknot back in 1999 but hey, guess I grew up and grew out of the teen angst and wanted music which actually had something to it.

So to get back to my "metal pride" thing, I think many people in this thread (myself included) feel they sort of reserve the rights to say alternative metal sucks, because I suppose there are other like me who used to listen to it and from personal experience can confirm that its utter garbage.

People progress in their taste of music, thats what id like to believe anyway, and when people rave about new shitty alternative bands or things like System of a Down Im like "meh...i went through all that and seriously its not really good at ALL". And usually in these forums when the whole "alternative" thing comes up I just turn a cold shoulder because I tell myself "dont worry, whoever listens to this shit will EVENTUALLY realize that its not all that and feel embarrased the way I do." lol

So I guess its fine to listen to it, as long as you dont make a scene about it and pretend to be the most badass metalhead in the universe and realise that what you're listening to isnt even a patch on what actual metal is all about - and hopefully someday you will realise it.

I get the jist of what you're saying but I got a question what do Machine Head's Burn My Eyes & The MOre Things Change (those are early MH in my book) have to do with alternative metal?

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 13.10.2008 at 16:31

Written by [user id=1909] on 13.10.2008 at 16:21

I think it has something to do with "metal pride" as well...lemme explain.

When I was in highschool, like 14 or 15 (which is 12 or 13 years ago) I admit I listened to all kinds of Alternative metal music because that was all I knew. I confess I listened to things like Korn and early Machine Head but thats sort of how you learn and progress into better music. Everyone has to start somewhere and unlike many older guys around here I didnt start off with Black Sabbath and Led Zeppelin. You listen to the shit people play in school, I even went through a Manson phase with "Antichrist Superstar" and at that stage I thought it was freekin AMAZING.

And as the years go by and your life takes twists and turns you end up hearing things you never knew existed and I eventually went to live in the UK for 2 years where the turn-around came for me metal-wise - I got exposed to such and overload of really really good METAL and knew that it was what I always longed for. And since then I cant even IMAGINE how I could listen to the crap I used to like Im almost ashamed of liking things like Slipknot back in 1999 but hey, guess I grew up and grew out of the teen angst and wanted music which actually had something to it.

So to get back to my "metal pride" thing, I think many people in this thread (myself included) feel they sort of reserve the rights to say alternative metal sucks, because I suppose there are other like me who used to listen to it and from personal experience can confirm that its utter garbage.

People progress in their taste of music, thats what id like to believe anyway, and when people rave about new shitty alternative bands or things like System of a Down Im like "meh...i went through all that and seriously its not really good at ALL". And usually in these forums when the whole "alternative" thing comes up I just turn a cold shoulder because I tell myself "dont worry, whoever listens to this shit will EVENTUALLY realize that its not all that and feel embarrased the way I do." lol

So I guess its fine to listen to it, as long as you dont make a scene about it and pretend to be the most badass metalhead in the universe and realise that what you're listening to isnt even a patch on what actual metal is all about - and hopefully someday you will realise it.

I get the jist of what you're saying but I got a question what do Machine Head's Burn My Eyes & The MOre Things Change (those are early MH in my book) have to do with alternative metal?

Yeah I knew this was gonna come up lol I admit those two albums dont really classify as alternative metal but I also liked Supercharger and The Burningred, which are both pretty terrible come to think of it. The first Machine Head albums were probably the first ones I listened to which started my quest for something more solid and "properly" metal. But even during those early days those albums seemed almost too heavy for me and while I liked it, it took me some time to realise their worth - and instead I spent more time listening to shit like Korn lol

Written by [user id=1909] on 13.10.2008 at 16:40

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 13.10.2008 at 16:31

Written by [user id=1909] on 13.10.2008 at 16:21

I think it has something to do with "metal pride" as well...lemme explain.

When I was in highschool, like 14 or 15 (which is 12 or 13 years ago) I admit I listened to all kinds of Alternative metal music because that was all I knew. I confess I listened to things like Korn and early Machine Head but thats sort of how you learn and progress into better music. Everyone has to start somewhere and unlike many older guys around here I didnt start off with Black Sabbath and Led Zeppelin. You listen to the shit people play in school, I even went through a Manson phase with "Antichrist Superstar" and at that stage I thought it was freekin AMAZING.

And as the years go by and your life takes twists and turns you end up hearing things you never knew existed and I eventually went to live in the UK for 2 years where the turn-around came for me metal-wise - I got exposed to such and overload of really really good METAL and knew that it was what I always longed for. And since then I cant even IMAGINE how I could listen to the crap I used to like Im almost ashamed of liking things like Slipknot back in 1999 but hey, guess I grew up and grew out of the teen angst and wanted music which actually had something to it.

So to get back to my "metal pride" thing, I think many people in this thread (myself included) feel they sort of reserve the rights to say alternative metal sucks, because I suppose there are other like me who used to listen to it and from personal experience can confirm that its utter garbage.

People progress in their taste of music, thats what id like to believe anyway, and when people rave about new shitty alternative bands or things like System of a Down Im like "meh...i went through all that and seriously its not really good at ALL". And usually in these forums when the whole "alternative" thing comes up I just turn a cold shoulder because I tell myself "dont worry, whoever listens to this shit will EVENTUALLY realize that its not all that and feel embarrased the way I do." lol

So I guess its fine to listen to it, as long as you dont make a scene about it and pretend to be the most badass metalhead in the universe and realise that what you're listening to isnt even a patch on what actual metal is all about - and hopefully someday you will realise it.

I get the jist of what you're saying but I got a question what do Machine Head's Burn My Eyes & The MOre Things Change (those are early MH in my book) have to do with alternative metal?

Yeah I knew this was gonna come up lol I admit those two albums dont really classify as alternative metal but I also liked Supercharger and The Burningred, which are both pretty terrible come to think of it. The first Machine Head albums were probably the first ones I listened to which started my quest for something more solid and "properly" metal. But even during those early days those albums seemed almost too heavy for me and while I liked it, it took me some time to realise their worth - and instead I spent more time listening to shit like Korn lol

Yes Supercharger & The Burningred can be classified as alternative metal I agree and are indeed pretty dire.

And Korn happens to not be shit.
Do you call the inability to see quality in music of bands such as Korn a progression of taste?
Sounds like the complete opposite of progression to me...

Written by [user id=1909] on 13.10.2008 at 16:21

I think it has something to do with "metal pride" as well...lemme explain.

When I was in highschool, like 14 or 15 (which is 12 or 13 years ago) I admit I listened to all kinds of Alternative metal music because that was all I knew. I confess I listened to things like Korn and early Machine Head but thats sort of how you learn and progress into better music. Everyone has to start somewhere and unlike many older guys around here I didnt start off with Black Sabbath and Led Zeppelin. You listen to the shit people play in school, I even went through a Manson phase with "Antichrist Superstar" and at that stage I thought it was freekin AMAZING.

And as the years go by and your life takes twists and turns you end up hearing things you never knew existed and I eventually went to live in the UK for 2 years where the turn-around came for me metal-wise - I got exposed to such and overload of really really good METAL and knew that it was what I always longed for. And since then I cant even IMAGINE how I could listen to the crap I used to like Im almost ashamed of liking things like Slipknot back in 1999 but hey, guess I grew up and grew out of the teen angst and wanted music which actually had something to it.

So to get back to my "metal pride" thing, I think many people in this thread (myself included) feel they sort of reserve the rights to say alternative metal sucks, because I suppose there are other like me who used to listen to it and from personal experience can confirm that its utter garbage.

People progress in their taste of music, thats what id like to believe anyway, and when people rave about new shitty alternative bands or things like System of a Down Im like "meh...i went through all that and seriously its not really good at ALL". And usually in these forums when the whole "alternative" thing comes up I just turn a cold shoulder because I tell myself "dont worry, whoever listens to this shit will EVENTUALLY realize that its not all that and feel embarrased the way I do." lol

So I guess its fine to listen to it, as long as you dont make a scene about it and pretend to be the most badass metalhead in the universe and realise that what you're listening to isnt even a patch on what actual metal is all about - and hopefully someday you will realise it.

I could point out that popular mainstream alternative metal artists functioned as your gateway into metal. Mainstream popular of any genre of metal pretty much sucks. Odds are whatever metal band you see the most shirts of at the mall are likely the most mediocre of the subgenre the represent.

Your post mentions the same artists that people who bash alternative metal seem to bring up time and again. You stated your case much better than many of your predecessors on this thread did, but it's still the same argument.

There are tons of great alternative metal bands. But if people are so focused on the popular acts that they are unwilling to even try other alternative metal bands (High on Fire, Om, Neurosis, tons of others that have threads here) - that's fine with me. In fact, it's fantastic. They are exactly the type of person I'd rather not see taking up space at a show.

I think we've been over this before but once again a lot of debate in this thread seems to revolve around semantics. I kind of doubt the kind of person who enters this thread and discusses "alternative metal" while mentioning Slipknot, Korn, System of a Down etc. subscribes to the unique definition of alternative metal used by this site. So the individual who disregards "alternative metal" isn't necessarily disregarding, say, High On Fire; I'd wager the average metal listener just doesn't associate bands like High On Fire with the term "alternative metal."

...you might be right about this.
Nevertheless, we took good care to use genre distinctions as they developed over the ages, instead of the anachronistic, revisionist ideas that some other sites have. I never understood why anyone would call anything before the 21st century reared its ugly head "mallcore" for example. Also, the term 'nu-metal' only became prominent around 1998 or so, with bands like Korn or Deftones being described as alternative metal, post-grunge, rap-metal, death metal or funk metal by the press before that time...

If by "genre distinctions as they developed" you are referring to what the press referred to bands at the time, then it is an interesting approach. But I think the distinctions made with the benefit of hindsight and with an understanding of the history tend to be more useful if not more accurate; what something is referred to at the time of its release isn't necessarily the most useful way to view it in the future as the music and its connections to the music are better understood. Retroactively applying a term to include the originators of a genre that would not become clearly defined until later isn't necessarily revisionist, and an anachronistic term isn't automatically wrong (sometimes it just takes a while for an accepted term to emerge).

Anyway I'm just making an observation on some of the defenses of alternative metal in this thread; they often seem irrelevant to the complaints. Like with the above exchange, stoner metal may be considered a substyle of alternative metal on this forum but it seems pretty clear that it has nothing to do with the alternative metal that Valaskjalf is talking about. It seems like there have been a number of exchanges where poster A says "this is why alternative metal sucks" and poster B responds with "that's a generalization, here are some good alternative metal bands" - perfectly reasonable, except from the bands mentioned it seems perfectly clear that poster A and poster B mean two different things when they say "alternative metal." And this isn't because one is using the "correct" term, it's just that "alternative metal" is a more ambiguous term with multiple meanings... semantics. So as a result we seem to have a number of exchanges where poster A is attacking genre X while poster B responds by defending genre Y.

Yeah and the fact that its been so long since I listened to any of it. When I listened "alternative metal" it was right at the start of it really....1995/1996 for a couple of years and the bands back then are vastly different to what people call alternative metal today. And since I havent been listening to it or got over the whole thing almost 10 years ago its normal for people like me who listen to more blackmetal/progressive/viking/death to not really know or care about the spawn of the "old" alternative scene.

Thats probably why this thread is relatively useless, because unless you're a person who listens to more extreme metal yet STILL stay up to date with what the new alternative metal sounds like - all arguments will lead to confusion and misunderstandings. And the chances of many of those metalheads even existing is pretty slim. Unless you are really very open minded and can listen to alternative metal and perhaps blackmetal etc.

I for one have no clue who "High on Fire" is :-S

Written by [user id=1909] on 14.10.2008 at 12:37

And the chances of many of those metalheads even existing is pretty slim. Unless you are really very open minded and can listen to alternative metal and perhaps blackmetal etc.

We have quite a few people like this on this very website.

Written by jupitreas on 14.10.2008 at 14:19

Written by [user id=1909] on 14.10.2008 at 12:37

And the chances of many of those metalheads even existing is pretty slim. Unless you are really very open minded and can listen to alternative metal and perhaps blackmetal etc.

We have quite a few people like this on this very website.

Yeah we do and I don't see what it has to with being extremely open-minded musically. I myself am pretty close-minded when it come to music, I don't listen to anything outside of metal and don't like that stuff outside of metal at all. But when it comes to metal I listen to both alternative metal, brutal death, old school death, mainstream black, very true underground black, all forms of doom, thrash, US power. But certainly can't stand and am extremely close-minded when it comes to FOLK metal, European Power Metal, Gothic metal, and 99% of the bands that have a female vocalist.
So, it is safe to say I am close-minded but I do enjoy both black and alternative.

touché

Written by [user id=1909] on 14.10.2008 at 12:37
Yeah and the fact that its been so long since I listened to any of it. When I listened "alternative metal" it was right at the start of it really....1995/1996 for a couple of years and the bands back then are vastly different to what people call alternative metal today. And since I havent been listening to it or got over the whole thing almost 10 years ago its normal for people like me who listen to more blackmetal/progressive/viking/death to not really know or care about the spawn of the "old" alternative scene.

Thats probably why this thread is relatively useless, because unless you're a person who listens to more extreme metal yet STILL stay up to date with what the new alternative metal sounds like - all arguments will lead to confusion and misunderstandings. And the chances of many of those metalheads even existing is pretty slim. Unless you are really very open minded and can listen to alternative metal and perhaps blackmetal etc.

I for one have no clue who "High on Fire" is :-S

Well in this case it isn't really about staying up do date, since stoner isn't exactly a new development of "alternative metal", it's an early 1990s derivative of doom metal more than anything else and has nothing to do with the "alternative metal" you mentioned, stylistically speaking. In fact I wonder if referring to stoner metal as "alternative metal" isn't revisionist/anachronistic...

Written by totaliteraliter on 14.10.2008 at 19:31

Written by [user id=1909] on 14.10.2008 at 12:37
Yeah and the fact that its been so long since I listened to any of it. When I listened "alternative metal" it was right at the start of it really....1995/1996 for a couple of years and the bands back then are vastly different to what people call alternative metal today. And since I havent been listening to it or got over the whole thing almost 10 years ago its normal for people like me who listen to more blackmetal/progressive/viking/death to not really know or care about the spawn of the "old" alternative scene.

Thats probably why this thread is relatively useless, because unless you're a person who listens to more extreme metal yet STILL stay up to date with what the new alternative metal sounds like - all arguments will lead to confusion and misunderstandings. And the chances of many of those metalheads even existing is pretty slim. Unless you are really very open minded and can listen to alternative metal and perhaps blackmetal etc.

I for one have no clue who "High on Fire" is :-S

Well in this case it isn't really about staying up do date, since stoner isn't exactly a new development of "alternative metal", it's an early 1990s derivative of doom metal more than anything else and has nothing to do with the "alternative metal" you mentioned, stylistically speaking. In fact I wonder if referring to stoner metal as "alternative metal" isn't revisionist/anachronistic...

Well like I said...Ive never even heard of them so I cant say what they are

i can understand your point, total, regarding different ideas of what constitutes alternative metal. classifying music in general is sketchy at best. while some bands are easily pegged, others are not.

On Metalstorm, Doom is classified under "melodic", while thrash is under "extreme."

Take the new Esoteric - that album is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more extreme than anything Metallica has ever done, particularly anything they've done in the last two decades. (at least taken from a current perspective, as I suppose "Kill 'em All" was pretty extreme when it came out.)

Esoteric is under melodic, whereas as Metallica still resides in extreme - even though Metallica has been anything but over the last 20 years.

/shrug

Again, some are clear cut and easy to define, but a lot of metal acts blur lines and thus make classification difficult.

We've been through this discussion before, at length, on this very thread.

The site makes it very clear which genres fit under which umbrellas when you click the forum link. If discussing "Alternative Metal" on Metalstorm, it stands to reason that discussions should take into account the site's designations.

Is it perfect?

No.

But it sure beats the hell out of a site with one, lone "Metal" forum and every band from ...And Oceans to Zyklon falling into one big folder.

Of course, I just think an effort ought to be made not to assume that those against "alternative metal" are against "metalstorm alternative metal."

Written by BitterCOld on 14.10.2008 at 20:49
But it sure beats the hell out of a site with one, lone "Metal" forum and every band from ...And Oceans to Zyklon falling into one big folder.

Actually I strongly disagree, in my experience excessive organization like this site uses tends to stifle discussion while providing few advantages. But that's just me I guess...

I really don't see what the problem is with alternative metal lol. It is true that the big names of alternative metal like Korn and Slipknot suck, but I think most people listen to only a few "popular" bands of the genre and dislike all alternative metal because those few bands suck balls.

What most people probably don't think about is that a lot of the big names of metal suck . I like Thrash but three of the big 4 of thrash definetly have some terrible albums out, while Metallica just sucks completely haha. Same thing with Black Metal; Dimmu Borgir and COF ain't that great. You just can't judge a genre by a few bands; saddly most metal fans seem to do just that.

I dont like alternative metal that much, but there will always be a band or two in each genre that catch my eye and ill listen to and like.