I kind of feel like Deathspell Omega have worn out their welcome a bit. I like what I'm hearing but Paracletus, this ain't (yep that's their best album, sue me).

And this is a must-read for the nazi-callers: http://www.bardomethodology.com/articles/2019/06/23/deathspell-omega-interview/

Btw, this one is a grower for sure. Raised it from 7 to 8.

Written by Auntie Sahar on 15.05.2019 at 18:27

Written by Czerny Reiter on 11.05.2019 at 03:59

People who prioritize morality and politics over aesthetic appreciation will forever be at odds with more extreme art forms.

It's a given that it won't be for all palates, but works expected to conform to moral boundaries and culled of their potential for transgression cannot really be called art.

This is the point that I feel is sadly being lost in much of the contemporary art culture of today, the fact that art is always (ideally, at least) meant to tear down walls as opposed to erecting them and staying within the confines of prevailing social customs and sensitivities. Many artists today that are regarded as "classic" and recognized for their importance, such as William Blake, Poe, the Beats, the Dadaists, etc., were derided and considered as obscene in their time. I'm not saying that metal bands today that flirt with fascist, white supremacist, and Nazi imagery will go down in history as "classic," or even that they receive my support (certainly not), but they are nonetheless staying true to the spirit of transgression at the core of artistry in their own way, so with that in mind, I find it difficult to really point and say "no, you shouldn't be doing that", even if I may personally disagree with the beliefs that drive their work.

I made the horrible mistake of going through this thread today and I just wanted to point out in this argument: fascist/white supremacist imagery or art is not transgressive. It is regressive. It is safe. It plays to stereotypes and ideas that people still believe and that's been gaining popularity recently anyways. It's not anything new or daring, it is safe imagery playing to people who can't be bothered to question their worldview and seek an easy scapegoat for all their problems.

Anyways, to lighten the mood and since you also mentioned tankie bm, here is some I remember:

Also we have some RABM that's been gaining popularity these past few years.

Revisiting both the album today as well as the interview with Bardo Methodology, I came across one question and answer in particular that I feel says all that needs to be said regarding the controversy this album and its lyrics have been inviting. I have nothing further to say in this thread about the drama: read on if you choose, and make of the following what you will.

Q (Bardo Methodology)

Moving to the conceptual side of things, we begin with the title. Before commencing actual adult discourse on the topic, we might as well seize this chance to clarify for the confused. 'How did DEATHSPELL OMEGA not think people would clock that obviously fascist title?', stated one of many outraged Twitter voices. Clearly, you were naively unaware that Hellenic terms for rebirth are inseparable from the advocacy of totalitarian corporatism. Considering the times we live in, weren't you expecting some turbulence over this?

A (Deathspell Omega)

It is our utmost conviction that the artist ought to stand beyond good or evil and that the pursuit of his or her artistic goals should therefore remain untouched by considerations pertaining to critical reception, the sensitivity of a potential audience, or anything that would detract from the full accomplishment of those artistic goals. Taking into creative consideration the very fragile current zeitgeist would render any piece of art absolutely harmless and devoid of worth - and by that we affirm that most of what's considered art these days is a singularly watered-down version of what it should be. Lack of singularity or vision may be forgivable, bending the knee in front of your contemporaries - most of whom long to become what Zarathustra, with disbelief and horror, called 'the last man' - entails compromise without return and is, consequently, unforgivable.

Let's reason in historical terms. Just look at the incredible vitality of Soviet art in the revolution's early innings; all of which ended in stale conformism as soon as the party tightened its grip on intellectual life. Similarly, one shouldn't be surprised that the geniuses in the Entartete Kunst exhibition of 1937 were, not exclusively but mostly, those the National Socialist authorities intended to ridicule. Rather? let us leave the world of binary thinking for a minute, concentrate solely on the individual of exceptional fabric, and dream aloud. What about a bold move instead? Say, the frictional ground of a meeting between the artistic work of Albert Speer and the artistic work of Otto Dix?

Let us expand on that. DEATHSPELL OMEGA, as a collective, works in circles. The French core of the collective - which, incidentally, is the creative core and source of music and lyrics - is Bataillian by definition and therefore completely immune to mundane politics, having deconstructed them a long time ago. For the layman: Bataille first fought the far-left when it was considered a promising horizon for mankind and then, shortly thereafter, fought the rise of the far-right when these movements began gaining traction - not least because Bataille was one of the most penetrant readers of Nietzsche and, eventually, stood worlds above such petty illusions. When the many were begging to drink the sweet milk of imposture, he could see the puppet strings and smell the rot.

A minority of the collective's contributors - shall we say, parts of the second circle - who've been invited to partake because of their incredible talents as musicians are involved with earthly politics, but stand on completely opposite ends of the political spectrum and are therefore irreconcilable political foes. Were it not for dialogue on the grounds of transgressive art, they'd be shooting each other. That tension is what interests us. It's also an echo of more complex days - times when childhood friends Aragon the communist, Malraux the Gaullist and Drieu La Rochelle the fascist, while never reneging on their respective irreconcilable combats, for years lost neither the ability for sincere and profound dialogue nor their admiration for each other's unique talents.

If you make art 'safe', no matter your concerns - moral, aesthetic or otherwise - you sterilise it and, in the long run, with utmost certainty, kill it. If, on the contrary, you allow and even invite conflict and chaos at the core of the matrix, you enhance the possibilities infinitely. Ironically, by taking this approach - which in many ways mimics life itself - we espouse a Nietzschean life-affirming stance whilst potential detractors to our method stand within the ranks of those slowly choking the human mind, paving the way for the aforementioned 'last man'. If only things were as simple as good and evil!

As an artist, you ought to be obsessed by cruelty. Cruelty towards yourself, as you ruthlessly discard works which don't live up to your standards - standards which must be devoid of any complacency and in a constant and strenuous process of self-betterment, killing the mediocre material over and over again. Cruelty in the implacable execution of your art. Cruelty in the themes you consider unworthy and those you choose to convey. Let us summon Beth Gibbons here, performing Henryk Górecki's "Symphony of Sorrowful Songs", making the abominable mourning of a mother into a tangible reality for the whole audience - that's the frontier. What lies beyond, or shall we say below, is of no interest to us because it cannot lead to the critical spasm, this distinctly otherworldly moment that makes art a communion with the gods.

But the decisive question is whether you are willing to believe their cheap attempt of an explanation or not.

Quote:
A minority of the collective's contributors - shall we say, parts of the second circle - who've been invited to partake because of their incredible talents as musicians are involved with earthly politics, but stand on completely opposite ends of the political spectrum and are therefore irreconcilable political foes.

So Mikko Aspa is the sole scapegoat, the other members' enemy and the political opponent of the band's inner circle and core?
And despite of all countless legions of vocalists in the world, they had to choose a notorious racist, blatant fascist and alleged pedo - him of all people?

Come on, this is ridiculous.
And it's such a lame "excuse" that it hurts to see people swallowing it.

What makes you think it is an excuse?
The first paragraph clearly shows their stance regarding ideology in music and the whole paragraph you trim-quoted recognizes they have no issue working with people with completely different ideas. If you add both together, they make sense and are consistent.

Written by Vombatus on 18.09.2019 at 00:46

What makes you think it is an excuse?

You are perfectly right, there is no excuse - that's why I enclosed the term in quotation marks.
I truly believe that you can't justify the decision to welcome people like Aspa in your ranks by hiding yourself under a sheltering hull of your artistic goals, whatever these may be.

I've read the complete interview and I understand what DsO are driving at, it's just that I don't buy their arguments. Is it really a matter of their understanding of art or is it just a matter of their business acumen and the awareness that more records can be sold with Aspa rather than without him?
All I know is that it's too late to deny Aspa's involvement and it's too late to say "Sorry. We have just found out that Mikka is a scumbag. Consider him fired."

But it's never too late to play the "our art is untouchable and we are immune to mundane politics"-joker...

By the way, I am whistling a rather dissonant but very catchy melody while writing this, so I'm an artist too. The next logical step is to claim everything I ever wrote, said and did to be pure art and my artistic goals should therefore remain untouched by considerations pertaining to critical reception or anything that...
...you know the rest.


PS: I really don't mind people enjoying DsO's music and I guess The Furnaces Of Palingenesia is rightfully among the top 100 albums of 2019. But it is my opinion that neither success nor self-acclaimed unassailableness should serve as a justification for the trivialisation of collaborating with a racist.

It's fine to not buy their point of view. After all, being capable of dissociating music from ideology or the person behind it, etc, etc, etc, has been discussed to death and is always very polarizing.

But it is true that Mikko has been doing vocals for the band for 15 (?) years, and it is only now (with current amplification of the political aspect in music, more so BM) that this seems to be an issue. If their collaboration has been going for such a long time, should (or have) they changed their stance? I don't know, as I know nothing about Christian Bouche or other members. I do however doubt that a business move is behind this considering the band has zero promotion, no live shows, self-produces, doesn't even confirm their line-up and barely do an interview every 5 years or something. That doesn't seem like a very good business driven strategy.
Pretending to know otherwise seems a bit far-fetched, and almost appears as a need to find a reasoning that resonates with us as the arguments from someone we don't know do not compute with our vision.

Written by Vombatus on 18.09.2019 at 23:21

But it is true that Mikko has been doing vocals for the band for 15 (?) years, and it is only now (with current amplification of the political aspect in music, more so BM) that this seems to be an issue.

Good point.
But I can only speak for myself and 15 years ago, I didn't even know that Mikko Aspa existed, let alone what he was up to. It's just logical that not only adulation of the crowd but also opposing opinions will grow with the publicity of a controversial band. And besides, there are free riders on either side and you will also find hotheaded supporters of Mikko's ideas anywhere, regardless of their individual musical preferences.

Written by Vombatus on 18.09.2019 at 23:21

I do however doubt that a business move is behind this considering the band has zero promotion, no live shows, self-produces, doesn't even confirm their line-up and barely do an interview every 5 years or something. That doesn't seem like a very good business driven strategy.

Anonymity and obscurity have always been key features of DsO's image. Yet they are trying to sell something and their popularity is hinting that they are quite good at it - despite or maybe even due to the band's conscious renunciation of conventional promotion.
Please mind that I never claimed they were primarily driven by financial interests, I just called into question whether promoting their values of art was their sole and exclusive goal.

Anyway, let's leave it at that for now.
Two people, two opinions. I can live with that.

Written by Starvynth on 17.09.2019 at 22:16

So Mikko Aspa is the sole scapegoat, the other members' enemy and the political opponent of the band's inner circle and core?
And despite of all countless legions of vocalists in the world, they had to choose a notorious racist, blatant fascist and alleged pedo - him of all people?

That's not what I got out of it at all

They (or he, rather, Christian Bouche, who I'm assuming the interview was with) are saying that Deathspell Omega continues with Aspa because of his politically divergent views, not in spite of them. This is outlined in the next thing that was said in that paragraph you quote trimmed from, which you omitted:

"Were it not for dialogue on the grounds of transgressive art, they'd be shooting each other. That tension is what interests us"

At this point it seems to me that the attitude towards Mikko on the part of the rest of the band (or at least from Bouche) is.... why ruin a good thing, essentially, if there have been no problems up to this point? Though he may not agree with Mikko's views and be fundamentally opposed to them, they can both still come together in the pursuit of some higher goal, and since there has been nothing that has interrupted the pursuit of that goal between them previously, there's no reason for any external controversy or circumstance to now.

Written by Auntie Sahar on 23.09.2019 at 22:32

That's not what I got out of it at all

They (or he, rather, Christian Bouche, who I'm assuming the interview was with) are saying that Deathspell Omega continues with Aspa because of his politically divergent views, not in spite of them. This is outlined in the next thing that was said in that paragraph you quote trimmed from, which you omitted:

"Were it not for dialogue on the grounds of transgressive art, they'd be shooting each other. That tension is what interests us"

At this point it seems to me that the attitude towards Mikko on the part of the rest of the band (or at least from Bouche) is.... why ruin a good thing, essentially, if there have been no problems up to this point? Though he may not agree with Mikko's views and be fundamentally opposed to them, they can both still come together in the pursuit of some higher goal, and since there has been nothing that has interrupted the pursuit of that goal between them previously, there's no reason for any external controversy or circumstance to now.

I'm totally aware of what they are trying to portray.
But I can't help it, I simply don't believe their words.

Let's try to forget the sideshow and everything that goes with it for a moment. Just for a minute, let's travel back in time and reduce DsO to a very mundane thing: a group of young folks from France making music.
You will not find any deep philosophy on their first recordings for the Disciples Of The Ultimate Void demo (1999), in fact it's simply god-awful and very amateurish. And even die-hard fans will have to admit that also their first LP, recorded just a couple of months later, was of very low quality, musically as well as lyrically. There was no Friedrich Nietzsche, no Otto Dix, no Anton Bruckner and not even a slight hint of their artistic approaches. Just four friends, each of them at the age of around 22, taking inspiration from horror stories and early Mayhem to record some very average, clichéd and generic 2nd wave black metal tracks.

You want to believe that these young Frenchmen have teamed up with Mikko Aspa because of his politically divergent views?
Like "Hey Mikko, you're the scum of the earth but we'd really like to release some more albums through your NS label Northern Heritage. In fact, we despise you so much that... well... you know, we really hate you and stuff, but... what we always wanted to ask you... Do you wanna be our new vocalist? Please?"

Too bad there's their very first interview, proving even the most steadfast believers wrong:

Quote:
I of course am very proud of the brilliant actions of intolerance that took place during the National-Socialist era in Germany, and in Europe during WW2. To gaz the jews and so many liberal thinking people was fantastic.
We, in Deathspell Omega, are definitely fascistic thinking people, and proud of it.

So how can they claim to be "irreconcilable political foes" although they have been sharing exactly the same despicable views ever since?
All for the sake of transgressive art and the tension of flirting with fascism?
Well, I would rather call this attempt at explanation very lazy, coward and hypocrite.

Besides, I don't really want to get to know their "higher goals" when only 10% of it is based on Aspa's or the rest of the band's point of view as described above...

Quote:
As an artist, you ought to be obsessed by cruelty.

Nice, Sodom is always relevant.

Quote:
Let us summon Beth Gibbons here, performing Henryk Górecki's "Symphony of Sorrowful Songs"

At least their music taste has improved since the interview in 2000 when they said they only listened to tr00 and kvlt black metal and worshiped Satan.

They truly like the word "shall"

Most of these lyrics read like a political campaign speech.

Vote for #DeathspellOmega they shall make the world great again.

Seems like they might be more politically aligned with Mikko Aspa than they might want to admit:

Deathspell Omega in a 2000 interview w/ neo-Nazi Mikko Aspa who joined them in 2002: "very proud of the brilliant actions of intolerance" in Nazi Germany and in Europe in WW2. "To gaz the jews [...] was fantastic. We, in Deathspell Omega, are definitely fascistic thinking people"

https://twitter.com/heresysquad/status/1126351162460925952?lang=en

Now, it could be that they were angsty young men with nazi tendencies back then and have grown out of that garbage by now, but the visuals of the whole situation do not help here.

Regardless, I still cannot understand why communist musicians do not receive any backlash over their politics. After all, that too is an evil idealogy, has committed genocide, and actually has killed many more people than nazism.

Written by mz on 21.09.2021 at 20:22

Seems like they might be more politically aligned with Mikko Aspa than they might want to admit:

Deathspell Omega in a 2000 interview w/ neo-Nazi Mikko Aspa who joined them in 2002: "very proud of the brilliant actions of intolerance" in Nazi Germany and in Europe in WW2. "To gaz the jews [...] was fantastic. We, in Deathspell Omega, are definitely fascistic thinking people"

https://twitter.com/heresysquad/status/1126351162460925952?lang=en

Now, it could be that they were angsty young men with nazi tendencies back then and have grown out of that garbage by now, but the visuals of the whole situation does not help here.

Regardless, I still cannot understand why communist musicians do not receive any backlash over their politics. After all, that too is an evil idealogy, has committed genocide, and actually has killed many more people than nazism.

Well maybe he should clear his name if he has grown up.
I think communism is a bit more complicated than that, you could easily say capitalism causes more deaths than Nazis too.

Written by no one on 22.09.2021 at 00:17


Well maybe he should clear his name if he has grown up.
I think communism is a bit more complicated than that, you could easily say capitalism causes more deaths than Nazis too.

and yeah, I think the guys behind DsO see providing a clear explanation on this topic too "earthly". At this point, unless proven otherwise, I assume they are a bunch of Nazis.
And don't get me started on why I think capitalism is one of the biggest achievements of mankind as it will be too off-topic

Written by mz on 23.09.2021 at 00:08

At this point, unless proven otherwise, I assume they are a bunch of Nazis.

That's the way to go

Written by mz on 21.09.2021 at 20:22

Deathspell Omega in a 2000 interview w/ neo-Nazi Mikko Aspa who joined them in 2002: "very proud of the brilliant actions of intolerance" in Nazi Germany and in Europe in WW2. "To gaz the jews [...] was fantastic. We, in Deathspell Omega, are definitely fascistic thinking people"

Seems like Starvynth beat you to it by about two years when he posted the exact same quote in this exact thread

Written by Zap on 24.09.2021 at 15:04

Seems like Starvynth beat you to it by about two years when he posted the exact same quote in this exact thread

Yeah, I had noticed that too, but I didn't mean to brag about it. Because the real winner of the "Who smelled the brown shit first?" competition is the user formerly known as Maco.
And he even enjoyed the smell of it. That gives extra points.

Written by Zap on 24.09.2021 at 15:04


Seems like Starvynth beat you to it by about two years when he posted the exact same quote in this exact thread

yeah I was late to the party.
I saw the link to the full interview posted also in the other pages related to DsO but didn;t want to secretly delete my post and pretend that I haven't screwed up
anyway, more exposure will not hurt I guess.

Written by mz on 24.09.2021 at 17:34

yeah I was late to the party.
I saw the link to the full interview posted also in the other pages related to DsO but didn;t want to secretly delete my post and pretend that I haven't screwed up
anyway, more exposure will not hurt I guess.

Haha, it's no screw-up, I just thought it was funny that you had posted in the same thread. Anyways, yeah, exposure of assholery is always a good thing, if you ask me.

Written by Starvynth on 24.09.2021 at 17:21

And he even enjoyed the smell of it. That gives extra points.

I wouldn't have been surprised if he did, but I interpreted that comment ("they were nice people") as sarcastic

Written by Mercurial on 11.05.2019 at 01:42

I think it's a sad state of affairs if bands now have to come out and state publically that they aren't racist etc. Or be apolitical, which is impossible. Is anything with a bit of mystery treated with suspicion now? Seems like the beginning of the end of art to me. Then again I don't care at all about a band's ideology, has never affected my enjoyment of music.

Still, the most based comment on the most based band from the most based user this site has ever known.

Maybe one day we will be able to see them live...

cool stuff. I remember reading the album was recorded as a live band in the studio. interesting to see M. mentioned in the description, seems he's been involved with dso before the long defeat.