Written by Entropic Silence on 14.06.2010 at 01:26
OK, I think I see what you mean. You have issue with the women who are involved and being exploited, not with those who are in the industry by choice. And that doesn't translate to an issue with the industry as a whole. Is that right?

Although I do find the industry reprehensible personally, that is basically my views on it, yup.

I firmly believe that the legalization of prostitution is a must for any semi-advanced democracy. Let's start from the most obvious product of this: taking prostitutes out the streets, into the brothels, which brings better control against STD's (via regular law-sanctioned and obligatory tests), and any illegal activities directly tied with prostitution. Then, putting the taxes on it will give a lot of the money flow to the state.

Once you completely legalize it (and let's face it, you can never prohibit it, people will screw hookers no matter what you do), it will stop being so marginalized, and frown upon (yeah, that takes time, but eventually it will). Also, pimping will no longer be as effective, and the degree of women (or even men on rare occasions) being forced into it will drop significantly. There are a lot of pros for it, and very few cons, other than fear for the morale of the nation, which is complete bollocks. We can all pretend to be godworshiping saints, but there is a reason why the legalization of prostitution is such a hot topic, it's because it IS INDEED very popular. It may be your neighbor, your father, or even yourself who asked, or is regularly searching for such services.

If you want a secular state, then cut all ties with the false morale forcefully slapped on your face by Church, moral guardians, this and that lesbian/feminist group, enraged never-had-anything-but-missionary Christian mothers, etc.


Pornography is even less of an issue. It's legal, 95% of all male population are consumers (sure, some women as well, though not as much), and basically all the moral guardians can do about it is bark helplessly. There is of course some percentage of people forced making it, but it's very, very small. Frankly, I haven't heard of any such case as of yet. These 'actresses' get paid (especially more popular ones, likes of Jenna Haze) per one movie, more than you'll get to see in a year (that is, if you work), so don't you pity them, you have no reason to. It's the life they've chosen for themselves, and it gets paid pretty well.

I imagine that it's a rough start, but once you get a hang on it (no pun intended).

Written by Angelic Storm on 14.06.2010 at 01:31

Although I do find the industry reprehensible personally, that is basically my views on it, yup.

Fair enough. It just irks me when people say 'if no-one's getting hurt then it's okay' because its such a generalization.

I'd post my views again in full but I think I've done that and they're reasonably similar to everyone else's.

Porn is (sadly) so ingrained into society that many regard it as a part of a young man's coming into sexual maturity (whatever that means). Horrible though it may (or may not) be, its a fairly decent part of my sex life. Which is depressing.

Prostitution is where I personally draw the line, but if a person is into that, then I have no problem. I think that it is better above ground rather than illegal, for the reasons stated by the majority above.

Did no one like that Liam Neeson line? I thought that was really good...

Written by Entropic Silence on 14.06.2010 at 00:34


Because I think it's a fairly safe assumption that women in pornography are being exploited. I don't actually have any case studies to whip out here, but it seems likely. If we can admit that young girls are kidnapped and forced into prostitution then it follows that similar things occur in pornography.

While I don't have any evidence, it seems more logical to me to assume that it is going on, given the nature of the industry among other things, than to assume it isn't.

Sorry, but that all bunch of BS to me.

Written by Kennoth on 14.06.2010 at 01:40

Sorry, but that all bunch of BS to me.

Mind elaborating?

Where do I begin....Alright.


Because I think it's a fairly safe assumption that women in pornography are being exploited.

Speaking of elaboration. Where do you get this stuff? And you said it yourself you don't have a shrink of evidence for this. There may be some hardcore shit here and there, but these girls are actresses, they act.

I don't actually have any case studies to whip out here, but it seems likely.

No, it doesn't.

If we can admit that young girls are kidnapped and forced into prostitution then it follows that similar things occur in pornography.

You're equaling prostitution with pornography. First of all, prostitution is illegal. Second of all, there is child porn, which is also illegal. And yes, some girls very likely get kidnapped and forced to do pornography, but these are rare, amateur and ILLEGAL instances. I'm referring to huge pornographic networks and houses with shitloads of professional porn actors and actresses in their contracts. Do THEY get used? Are we going to ban porn, because some creepy scumbags are kidnapping girls and forcing them to do pornography. We can follow the same logic and ban pretty much everything from knives to guns, because people get killed by those. Those are mere tools, just like porn is just a service. Are we going to prohibit the sale of diamonds, because some black kids in Nigeria are slaving their asses off to dig them?

While I don't have any evidence, it seems more logical to me to assume that it is going on, given the nature of the industry among other things, than to assume it isn't.

What kind of nature are we talking about? It's sex, plain and simple. That's the whole problem, you're just assuming, and that can be very wrong in some cases.

"Pornography tell lies about women, but pornography tells the truth about men"

- absolutely right when you think about 98% of all porn. BUT there's something out there called Feminist Porn. Several places you can read about it. "Poryes" is one place to start ( : English and German ). Another good one is "goodforher" - Canadian site. A good porn movie is the Swedish "Dirty Diaries". Much better stuff than the usual extremely bad and boring porn ( and it doesn't matter if it's old, new, soft, hard, extreme or whatever label ).

Banning porn would be like banning the web. Impossible ( : though I think it's perfectly ok to try to block child pornography ) Of course all the human trafficking involved in both porn and prostitution is terrible. But I'm not sure you'll achieve anything via bans....

Sex education and mutual gender respect are the only hopes if you wanna combat the ugly sides of porn and prostitution. It's a very very long struggle. Some would probably say impossible...., but you gotta believe in the impossible....sex is just NOT ONLY about fucking

Written by torwar on 14.06.2010 at 16:25

"Pornography tell lies about women, but pornography tells the truth about men"

Bulshit , it tell lies about men , half truth about women , because some of them are reday to do all for money no metter whaty, and porn tells men wanna fuck chicks whereever thay can , car, airplain, stret in ass, mouth , 3 guys one cvhick, total bulsshit, I never could do it if there be other guy, looks sortha gay and never have look for easy woman and easy one night stand, so porn tell lies about men, most women think we like those sado mazo, and other thinks, I dunno but most of my friends like normal sex , and porn maybe french, italian and I hate chicks whit fake boobs to

Pornography and prostituion are same ? I just had that perceived idea. If regarding women, both get paid, just difference that one is publicly shown while the other secretly.

Written by Haddonfield on 02.12.2009 at 18:12

The whole thing should simply be made legal over here.

A- The hygene of the girls would be controlled by the state, regular check-ups.

B- You create a new tax, putting money into the state rather than in the pocket of exploitative pimps.

C- You lower the percentage of sex crimes because sexually frustated people can fulfill their urges in a legal maner.

D- You eliminate all exploitation and create a safe environment for those on the job.

E- Sex would become less taboo, more acceptable in society, thus more a norm, which will in the long run also lower the percentage of sex crimes.

I would never use prostitution but there are so many reasons to legalise the trade.

PS: I'd also apply this to some drugs.

I totally agree with you.!
...And even if prostitution is illegalt...It isn't helping...If you wanna bang someone for money then you can do it anyways...But prostitution being legal would be much more safer for both sides.

I just found out something very peculiar: Pakistan consumes more porn than any other country on Earth.

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According to a Fox News report, Google ranked Pakistan No. 1 in the world in searches for pornographic terms, outranking every other country in the world in searches per person for certain sex-related content.

Pakistan is top dog in searches per-person for 'horse sex' since 2004, 'donkey sex' since 2007, 'rape pictures' between 2004 and 2009, 'rape sex' since 2004, 'child sex' between 2004 and 2007 and since 2009, 'animal sex' since 2004 and 'dog sex' since 2005, according to Google Trends and Google Insights, said the Fox News report.

The country also tops - or has been No.1 - in searches for 'sex,' 'camel sex,' 'rape video,' 'child sex video' and some other unprintable searches.

It seems the more you repress it, the more you want it.

Written by Angelic Storm on 02.12.2009 at 18:19

though I do agree it probably would lower the percentage of sex crime.

But yeah, although I have some resevervations, I think the benefits of legalising outweigh the neagatives, and therefore it should be legalised. I also think most drugs should be legalised too. For similar reasons for why I think prostitution should be legalised.

Most individuals who commit sex crimes don't do it for the sex. Rapists are usually after something else, the need to dominate and hurt most likely. There was a time when rapists were castrated as punishment, most of those individuals still committed crimes of similar nature. Considering that most sex crimes happen between people who know each other (women being randomly attacked on the street doesn't happen, even in movies) and legalizing prostitution will achieve nothing except the faster moral decline of the society. As for legalizing drugs, I can only hope you are joking.

Written by Kennoth on 14.06.2010 at 01:35


These 'actresses' get paid (especially more popular ones, likes of Jenna Haze) per one movie, more than you'll get to see in a year (that is, if you work), so don't you pity them, you have no reason to. It's the life they've chosen for themselves, and it gets paid pretty well.

I don't think any girl grows up dreaming of becoming a porn actress and I don't think any boy dreams of becoming a porn star either. That would suggest, that people get involved in porn because they have no other/better choice. They have failed at trying to become what ever it was they dreamt about becoming when they were younger and they simply don't value themselves at all anymore. That's not choice, that's giving up. As for getting paid, dignity and peace of mind are priceless.

Written by [user id=105293] on 17.07.2010 at 05:09

As for getting paid, dignity and peace of mind are priceless.

but then again who are we to judge the people who have sex for money by their own choice?(be it porn or legal prostitution) if they're happy and it ain't hurting anyone, what's the big deal? same goes for some drugs if you know what i mean.

also you say that people become porn stars because they have failed at everything else, and i totally disagree with that. now i realize people don't grow up dreaming to become actors in sex movies but think of it as more like an acquired taste in most cases(as in, the money they get paid and them liking what they do outweigh whatever feelings of self-degradation they might have).

Written by [user id=105293] on 17.07.2010 at 05:09

I don't think any girl grows up dreaming of becoming a porn actress and I don't think any boy dreams of becoming a porn star either. That would suggest, that people get involved in porn because they have no other/better choice. They have failed at trying to become what ever it was they dreamt about becoming when they were younger and they simply don't value themselves at all anymore. That's not choice, that's giving up. As for getting paid, dignity and peace of mind are priceless.

We can't know what they want for themselves, now can we? While I'll agree on you that sometimes it's a desperate measure, there are whole lot of professions that don't provide you with dignity, and yet it's paid enough for you to make a living

Besides, dignity is something within yourself, either you got it or not, and if you do, it's hard to take it away from you. If you're a low-salary sewer worker, and you made peace with it, and don't look less of yourself, than that's some amount of dignity right there. And I don't even want to begin with peace of mind, which has nothing in par with job choice altogether.

Written by Valentin B on 17.07.2010 at 09:06

but then again who are we to judge the people who have sex for money by their own choice?(be it porn or legal prostitution) if they're happy and it ain't hurting anyone, what's the big deal? same goes for some drugs if you know what i mean.

also you say that people become porn stars because they have failed at everything else, and i totally disagree with that. now i realize people don't grow up dreaming to become actors in sex movies but think of it as more like an acquired taste in most cases(as in, the money they get paid and them liking what they do outweigh whatever feelings of self-degradation they might have).

Nicely put.

Written by Valentin B on 17.07.2010 at 09:06

Written by [user id=105293] on 17.07.2010 at 05:09

As for getting paid, dignity and peace of mind are priceless.

but then again who are we to judge the people who have sex for money by their own choice?(be it porn or legal prostitution) if they're happy and it ain't hurting anyone, what's the big deal? same goes for some drugs if you know what i mean.

also you say that people become porn stars because they have failed at everything else, and i totally disagree with that. now i realize people don't grow up dreaming to become actors in sex movies but think of it as more like an acquired taste in most cases(as in, the money they get paid and them liking what they do outweigh whatever feelings of self-degradation they might have).

I wasn't judging people, I was sympathizing with them. Here's a quote from Shelley Lubben's (former porn actress) article The truth behind the fantasy of porn:

"Sex-packed porn films featuring freshly-dyed blondes whose evocative eyes say "I want you" is quite possibly one of the greatest deceptions of all time. Trust me, I know. I did it all the time and I did it for the lust of power and the love of money. I never liked sex. I never wanted sex, and in fact I was more apt to spend time with Jack Daniels than some of the studs I was paid to "fake it" with. That's right, none of us freshly-dyed blondes like doing porn. In fact, we hate it. We hate being touched by strangers who care nothing about us. We hate being degraded with their foul smells and sweaty bodies. Some women hate it so much they can be heard vomiting in the bathroom between scenes. Others can be found outside smoking an endless chain of Marlboro lightsâ?¦"

I never said that porn actors/actresses had failed at EVERYTHING, but most likely they had failed at what they really wanted to do, which in most cases was probably acting in non-adult movies.

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We can't know what they want for themselves, now can we? While I'll agree on you that sometimes it's a desperate measure, there are whole lot of professions that don't provide you with dignity, and yet it's paid enough for you to make a living

Besides, dignity is something within yourself, either you got it or not, and if you do, it's hard to take it away from you. If you're a low-salary sewer worker, and you made peace with it, and don't look less of yourself, than that's some amount of dignity right there. And I don't even want to begin with peace of mind, which has nothing in par with job choice altogether.

Being a low-salary sewer worker might not provide you with dignity (though you are being useful to the society, so it can and should), but neither does it deprive you of your dignity. People might look down on you, but the actual job isn't undignifying at all. Porn however, read the quote I posted in response above from an ex porn actress. I guarantee you that working in sewege doesn't have such an effect on an human being.

Written by [user id=105293] on 17.07.2010 at 04:54
Most individuals who commit sex crimes don't do it for the sex. Rapists are usually after something else, the need to dominate and hurt most likely. There was a time when rapists were castrated as punishment, most of those individuals still committed crimes of similar nature. Considering that most sex crimes happen between people who know each other (women being randomly attacked on the street doesn't happen, even in movies) and legalizing prostitution will achieve nothing except the faster moral decline of the society. As for legalizing drugs, I can only hope you are joking.

No, legalizing prostitution will provide far greater protection for prostitutes than they currently have. Im not supporting prostitution because I want it legalised, I am merely living in the real world. Prostitution will never stop, regardless of whether its legal or not. Keeping prostitution illegal only benefits pimps, and allows them to keep abusing women for their own financial gain. It also prevents the prostitutes going to the police for help for fear of being arrested. You will never stop prostitution, you could keep prostitution illegal from now until doomsday, and it wont stop it. Making prostitution legal will make prostitutes a lot safer, and that is the reason why I think it should be legalised. I think women's safety has to come before any ''moral decline'' that you speak of. This world had never been moral anyway, so how can society decline from something that it never had in the first place?

No, Im not joking about legalising drugs. Again, you are never going to stop people from taking drugs. Keeping it illegal is doing nothing to prevent this whatsoever. Making drug taking legal would make things far safer for the drug takers, and would go a long way in preventing drug dealers from profitting on the misery of others. If people can aqquire drugs legally, they arent going to go to a pusher for them, so criminals will not be able to profit from it. It would also decrease the number of people who are dying from taking drugs. The law isnt losing the war on drugs, it lost it long ago. If you cant win the war, at least you can prevent it from being so damaging to people.

As for the porn industry, I will state once again that I find it reprehensible. Im also aware that some women are being used and exploited in the industry, and for sure there are a few women who will no doubt regret the fact that they got into the industry in the first place. But I think its a bit naive, and blinkered in the extreme to suggest that all those in the porn industry dont really want to do it. My stance on this is pretty clear, as long as the woman geniuinely enjoys what she's doing, and was in no way coerced into being the industry, then I dont have a problem with it. Of course, there are many women who have to act as if they enjoy it, when deep down, they actually hate it. I do find porn reprhensible, but the thing that matters to me only, is that the woman is doing what she wants, and is enjoying it. This is not me condoning porn, because its not.

Criminalizing prostitution is pointless in Egypt and in Arab countries as long as there's "Common-law Marriage", which just requires two witnesses to sign a marriage contract and voila, you're married.. and guess what, divorce is as easy as tearing up the paper !

so, to make a 'legal' prostitution business in Egypt you do the following simple steps:

1. Rent a place and register it as a 'motel'
2. Hire some prostitutes 'wives' and put each one in a room in your 'motel'
3. Hire two 'witnesses' who show the customer 'husband' a catalog of which 'wife' they would like to marry
4. The husband choose his bride, the witnesses sign the marriage contract, and give the husband the key to his motel room
5. The 'newly' weds do their thing, and when the husband leaves, he tears up the paper.

Easy as pie, ain't it ?

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No, legalizing prostitution will provide far greater protection for prostitutes than they currently have. Im not supporting prostitution because I want it legalised, I am merely living in the real world. Prostitution will never stop, regardless of whether its legal or not. Keeping prostitution illegal only benefits pimps, and allows them to keep abusing women for their own financial gain. It also prevents the prostitutes going to the police for help for fear of being arrested. You will never stop prostitution, you could keep prostitution illegal from now until doomsday, and it wont stop it. Making prostitution legal will make prostitutes a lot safer, and that is the reason why I think it should be legalised. I think women's safety has to come before any ''moral decline'' that you speak of. This world had never been moral anyway, so how can society decline from something that it never had in the first place?

No, Im not joking about legalising drugs. Again, you are never going to stop people from taking drugs. Keeping it illegal is doing nothing to prevent this whatsoever. Making drug taking legal would make things far safer for the drug takers, and would go a long way in preventing drug dealers from profitting on the misery of others. If people can aqquire drugs legally, they arent going to go to a pusher for them, so criminals will not be able to profit from it. It would also decrease the number of people who are dying from taking drugs. The law isnt losing the war on drugs, it lost it long ago. If you cant win the war, at least you can prevent it from being so damaging to people.

As for the porn industry, I will state once again that I find it reprehensible. Im also aware that some women are being used and exploited in the industry, and for sure there are a few women who will no doubt regret the fact that they got into the industry in the first place. But I think its a bit naive, and blinkered in the extreme to suggest that all those in the porn industry dont really want to do it. My stance on this is pretty clear, as long as the woman geniuinely enjoys what she's doing, and was in no way coerced into being the industry, then I dont have a problem with it. Of course, there are many women who have to act as if they enjoy it, when deep down, they actually hate it. I do find porn reprhensible, but the thing that matters to me only, is that the woman is doing what she wants, and is enjoying it. This is not me condoning porn, because its not.

"No, legalizing prostitution will provide far greater protection for prostitutes than they currently have. Im not supporting prostitution because I want it legalised, I am merely living in the real world. Prostitution will never stop, regardless of whether its legal or not. Keeping prostitution illegal only benefits pimps, and allows them to keep abusing women for their own financial gain. It also prevents the prostitutes going to the police for help for fear of being arrested."

Legalizing prostitution will give prostitutes rights on paper, but that's not worth much. People in the porn industry have rights on paper and guess what? Protection by police is up for sale and just like the adult film producer can outbid the actress, the manager can outbid the prostitute.

"This world had never been moral anyway, so how can society decline from something that it never had in the first place?"

If we had no morals, then we wouldn't condemn abusive pimps, would we? I look around and I see how people - especially young people - care less and less about their own rights and the rights of other people and I consider that to be the result of declining morals.

" Again, you are never going to stop people from taking drugs. Keeping it illegal is doing nothing to prevent this whatsoever."

I would like to see more effort on preventing people from starting to take drugs. I believe legalizing drugs would work against that. I can't imagine legalizing drugs and increasing people's knowledge of the harmfulness of drugs co-existing. People aren't that smart: If it's legal, then how can it be harmful?

"My stance on this is pretty clear, as long as the woman geniuinely enjoys what she's doing, and was in no way coerced into being the industry, then I dont have a problem with it"

Everything I know about women and human beings tells me, that no sane human being could enjoy being in porn. I can't prove this of course, but I'll take the words of Shelley Lubben as sufficient reason to believe I am correct. She said: "When you're watching porn, you're watching mentally and physically ill people."

All of your points seem to be saying: If we can't eliminate the problem, then we should control the problem. To me, this seems like a contradiction, because if we have control over something then we whould be able to destroy it.

Over and out.

Written by [user id=105293] on 17.07.2010 at 23:36

Being a low-salary sewer worker might not provide you with dignity (though you are being useful to the society, so it can and should), but neither does it deprive you of your dignity. People might look down on you, but the actual job isn't undignifying at all. Porn however, read the quote I posted in response above from an ex porn actress. I guarantee you that working in sewege doesn't have such an effect on an human being.

I'll just throw at you a slight critique about your quoting skills if you don't mind (I don't get notification about your answer this way)

Now, back on topic: you're saying that the guy who's working at a sewers should feel no shame about doing that, and I agree. But what kind of effect of porn on a human being are we talking about?

You can't criticize an entire porn industry based on the quote of an ex porn actresses. Writing books and memoirs about your ex job is as much as profitable as the real deal (Jenna Jameson anyone?)

Furthermore, it takes all kinds of us to populate the earth, and I wouldn't agree on you that EVERY SINGLE woman out there hates the gusts of what keeps her food on the table (I'm of course talking about porn). Isn't it safe to assume that some of them really enjoy it? And even if most don't, they just look at it like an every other job out there; meaning, take off ur clothes, do the job, and go home, or shoot the next scene. (I do agree that most of the orgasms and perhaps even enjoyment are obviously faked)

Interesting how porn is quickly to be shunned by moralists, but the fact remains that it's a very, very massive industry (let's face it, we all use it more or less), and to go little beyond the topic: sex sells. Sex sells literally everything, and marketers know that all too well. Turn on the television commercials, double entendres, half naked women selling everything from insurances to new mobile phones, allusions to sex, they're all everywhere. We might as well ban media as a whole. Sure, porn pretty much removes any and all subtlety about it, but we're all grown ups, and no matter how much skin is shown, we know what it's all about.

Written by [user id=105293] on 20.07.2010 at 00:44
Legalizing prostitution will give prostitutes rights on paper, but that's not worth much. People in the porn industry have rights on paper and guess what? Protection by police is up for sale and just like the adult film producer can outbid the actress, the manager can outbid the prostitute.

Manager, what? Of who?

So now you're saying the whole police force is corrupt? Even if that were the case, that still wouldnt change the fact that legalisation in principle, is a good idea. Although Im sure you're totally overexaggerating anyways.

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If we had no morals, then we wouldn't condemn abusive pimps, would we? I look around and I see how people - especially young people - care less and less about their own rights and the rights of other people and I consider that to be the result of declining morals.

When you consider some of the barbaric, brutal, mysogynist, etc... practices that were seen as perfectly acceptable by society many centuries ago, I would refute the suggestion that the world is any less moral now than it ever was. Human beings have ALWAYS partaken in immoral practices, Humanity has always had a dark heart, its nothing new.

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I would like to see more effort on preventing people from starting to take drugs. I believe legalizing drugs would work against that. I can't imagine legalizing drugs and increasing people's knowledge of the harmfulness of drugs co-existing. People aren't that smart: If it's legal, then how can it be harmful?

That has been tried, numerous times, and is very limited in it's success. In fact, I think keeping drugs illegal increases the likelyhood that young people will want to take them. Telling kids not to do something just makes them want to do it all the more. In an ideal world, I wouldnt want drugs legalised, but its not an ideal world, and never will be. I think the positives of legalisation outweigh the negatives.

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"Everything I know about women and human beings tells me, that no sane human being could enjoy being in porn. I can't prove this of course, but I'll take the words of Shelley Lubben as sufficient reason to believe I am correct. She said: "When you're watching porn, you're watching mentally and physically ill people."

But you dont know everything about women, or human beings. Which is the whole point. Just because I hate porn, and would never do it myself, doesnt mean that Im blind to the possibility that some women might enjoy doing it. Now, in my opinion, most women who get involved in the industry dont really want to do it, but that doesnt mean thats an absolute.

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All of your points seem to be saying: If we can't eliminate the problem, then we should control the problem. To me, this seems like a contradiction, because if we have control over something then we whould be able to destroy it.

No, its not a contradiction. Im just living in the real world, thats all. If prostitution hasnt been destroyed by now, then it never will be. The war on drugs cannot be won. Unless you have a police state, or a dictatorship, then it would be impossible to stamp those things out. And I think even with those things, they would continue. At least legalisation stops criminals from profitting from others' misery.

Written by Kennoth on 20.07.2010 at 02:48

Written by [user id=105293] on 17.07.2010 at 23:36

Being a low-salary sewer worker might not provide you with dignity (though you are being useful to the society, so it can and should), but neither does it deprive you of your dignity. People might look down on you, but the actual job isn't undignifying at all. Porn however, read the quote I posted in response above from an ex porn actress. I guarantee you that working in sewege doesn't have such an effect on an human being.

I'll just throw at you a slight critique about your quoting skills if you don't mind (I don't get notification about your answer this way)

Now, back on topic: you're saying that the guy who's working at a sewers should feel no shame about doing that, and I agree. But what kind of effect of porn on a human being are we talking about?

You can't criticize an entire porn industry based on the quote of an ex porn actresses. Writing books and memoirs about your ex job is as much as profitable as the real deal (Jenna Jameson anyone?)

Furthermore, it takes all kinds of us to populate the earth, and I wouldn't agree on you that EVERY SINGLE woman out there hates the gusts of what keeps her food on the table (I'm of course talking about porn). Isn't it safe to assume that some of them really enjoy it? And even if most don't, they just look at it like an every other job out there; meaning, take off ur clothes, do the job, and go home, or shoot the next scene. (I do agree that most of the orgasms and perhaps even enjoyment are obviously faked)

Interesting how porn is quickly to be shunned by moralists, but the fact remains that it's a very, very massive industry (let's face it, we all use it more or less), and to go little beyond the topic: sex sells. Sex sells literally everything, and marketers know that all too well. Turn on the television commercials, double entendres, half naked women selling everything from insurances to new mobile phones, allusions to sex, they're all everywhere. We might as well ban media as a whole. Sure, porn pretty much removes any and all subtlety about it, but we're all grown ups, and no matter how much skin is shown, we know what it's all about.

I didn't know you wouldn't be notified if I edited the text I was quoting. My apologies.

The effect of porn I was talking about is psychological, emotional and in some cases physical pain (not necessarily inherent in porn, but very very common). Porn is degrading and demoralizing.

I wasn't criticizing the industry based on the quote, I was using the quote as evidence to support my accusations against the porn industry, which are the following: damaging human beings psychologically, physically (in some cases), emotionally and morally.

I can't ask every woman (or every man) in the porn industry whether they enjoy doing what they do. I can only go by what those say, who are willing to talk about it. If I am correct, that porn is harmful, then those who enjoy doing it - if they are out there - are clearly massochistic and self-destructive.

Looking at porn as if it was just like any other job makes no sense, because while working on other jobs may cause harm due to the conditions under which those jobs are being performed (disfunctional equipment, insufficient safety measures, unreasonable working h etc), I believe that psychological, emotional and moral damage is inherent in pornography under any conditions.

I have never claimed to be a moralist, but I don't see what this has to do with porn being widespread.

So you think the problem is too big for us to handle? I don't agree. Banning media as a whole won't be necessary. Sex is not everywhere. From the news on my local TV station to some of the most popular and commercially sucessful films of all time (LOTR, Star Wars, The Dark Knight), there is plenty of media without sex. And you know what? If we started caring more about ourselves and everyone around us, if we respected our own rights and the rights of others, then maybe there wouldn't be a clientele for porn one day. You may say, that I am a dreamer, but I am...probably the only on on Metalstorm...damn it!

Over and out.

Written by Angelic Storm on 20.07.2010 at 04:16

Quote:
"Manager, what? Of who?

So now you're saying the whole police force is corrupt? Even if that were the case, that still wouldnt change the fact that legalisation in principle, is a good idea. Although Im sure you're totally overexaggerating anyways."

No, I am saying that if the porn industry manages to abuse actors/actresses despite being legal, then there's no guarantee that legalizing prostitution will give prostitutes protection.

Maybe I am exaggerating.

Quote:
"When you consider some of the barbaric, brutal, mysogynist, etc... practices that were seen as perfectly acceptable by society many centuries ago, I would refute the suggestion that the world is any less moral now than it ever was. Human beings have ALWAYS partaken in immoral practices, Humanity has always had a dark heart, its nothing new."

In some ways moral has improved, obviously. We no longer have public hangings and even when it comes to sexual moral, the western civilization still has a long way to fall to reach the lows of ancient Rome. However, when I look around me and compare the 13 year olds of today to my parents or even to those my age, it becomes blatantly obvious that all roads lead to Rome.

Quote:
"That has been tried, numerous times, and is very limited in it's success. In fact, I think keeping drugs illegal increases the likelyhood that young people will want to take them. Telling kids not to do something just makes them want to do it all the more. In an ideal world, I wouldnt want drugs legalised, but its not an ideal world, and never will be. I think the positives of legalisation outweigh the negatives."

Maybe we should have public hangings again, eh?

I don't agree that keeping drugs illegal makes drugs more appealing to the young, but it doesn't matter. What matters, is access, not desire. Suppose drugs were made legal, obviously you'd have to be 18 to do them and then what? Just like with alcohol and cigarettes, drugs would appeal to the young even more, because kids are dumb enough to think that behaving like a grown up makes you a grown up. "Be a man, snort some cocaine!" "Come on Charlie, you don't want to be a kid anymore, do you? Try some extasy!" Legalizing drugs will give us a world, where every single grown up has the means to deal drugs to children, even if they don't have the intent. Just like kids nowadays steal alcohol from their parents, kids will then be able to steal drugs from their parents - access. It's _insanity_. On the other hand, if someone manages to stay away from drugs before he/she turns 18, I believe there's a good chance that person will never turn to drugs.

Quote:
"But you dont know everything about women, or human beings. Which is the whole point. Just because I hate porn, and would never do it myself, doesnt mean that Im blind to the possibility that some women might enjoy doing it. Now, in my opinion, most women who get involved in the industry dont really want to do it, but that doesnt mean thats an absolute."

I am not blind to the possibility that some women might enjoy it, however I find it to be as unlikely as someone enjoying being kicked in the family jewels (yes, there are those people, but clearly they are not healthy). Just because a person enjoys doing something doesn't make it any less harmful. Mind you, I am not saying let's help porn actors/actresses, because they are wrong, I am saying let's help those who are being harmed, whether or not they are aware of or enjoy it.

Quote:
"No, its not a contradiction. Im just living in the real world, thats all. If prostitution hasnt been destroyed by now, then it never will be. The war on drugs cannot be won. Unless you have a police state, or a dictatorship, then it would be impossible to stamp those things out. And I think even with those things, they would continue. At least legalisation stops criminals from profitting from others' misery.

That is a flaw in logic. It's like saying: If we haven't sent a man to Mars by now, then we never will. I am as pessimistic as you (although for entirely different reasons), but that is no reason to give up and state that prostitution and drugs are forever. The only way to ensure that drug abuse will always exist is _to make it legal_. Instead of giving up we should ask ourselves: are we fighting drug abuse with the right methods? Are we trying to find a way to overcome the Earth's gravitational pull (to re-use my manned spaceship to Mars analogy) or are we trying to bring Mars closer to Earth. I believe the current fight with drug abuse resembles the latter.

Harming people is a criminal act. Drugs harm people, causing misery. Making drugs legal makes the state into the criminal directly responsible for the harm and misery caused.

Over and out.

Written by [user id=105293] on 20.07.2010 at 05:24
No, I am saying that if the porn industry manages to abuse actors/actresses despite being legal, then there's no guarantee that legalizing prostitution will give prostitutes protection.

Maybe I am exaggerating.

There would be no guarantee, but any increase in protection has to be a good thing.

Yep.

Quote:
In some ways moral has improved, obviously. We no longer have public hangings and even when it comes to sexual moral, the western civilization still has a long way to fall to reach the lows of ancient Rome. However, when I look around me and compare the 13 year olds of today to my parents or even to those my age, it becomes blatantly obvious that all roads lead to Rome.

I dont think there is such a thing as ''sexual immorality'', unless it involves rape, children, or animals. Anything sexual done between consenting adults is not immoral. Yep, there are a lot of sexual practices that I find horrible, but that doesnt make them immoral. And paedophilia, rape, etc have been around since man has existed, I should imagine. Yep, I do agree that in this day and age people are becoming sexualised at a much younger age. But thats because sex is everywhere you look in the media. A lot of children are becoming sexually aware far earlier than they should be, which is wrong. But I cant see that trend ever being reversed now.

Quote:
Maybe we should have public hangings again, eh?

I don't agree that keeping drugs illegal makes drugs more appealing to the young, but it doesn't matter. What matters, is access, not desire. Suppose drugs were made legal, obviously you'd have to be 18 to do them and then what? Just like with alcohol and cigarettes, drugs would appeal to the young even more, because kids are dumb enough to think that behaving like a grown up makes you a grown up. "Be a man, snort some cocaine!" "Come on Charlie, you don't want to be a kid anymore, do you? Try some extasy!" Legalizing drugs will give us a world, where every single grown up has the means to deal drugs to children, even if they don't have the intent. Just like kids nowadays steal alcohol from their parents, kids will then be able to steal drugs from their parents - access. It's _insanity_. On the other hand, if someone manages to stay away from drugs before he/she turns 18, I believe there's a good chance that person will never turn to drugs.

I dont see what public hangings have to do with it...

That is totally false. ''Every single grown up'' would not have the means to sell drugs to children, at least not legally. If drugs were legalised, Im sure there'd be tight regulations on outlets that could legally supply them. It would still be (or should be) illegal for an ordinary member of the public attempting to sell drugs. Pushers will make far less money from drugs if they were legalised, because most users will just obtain them legally, and be sure that the drugs arent contaminated. Unlike much of the drugs sold on the street.

Quote:
I am not blind to the possibility that some women might enjoy it, however I find it to be as unlikely as someone enjoying being kicked in the family jewels (yes, there are those people, but clearly they are not healthy). Just because a person enjoys doing something doesn't make it any less harmful. Mind you, I am not saying let's help porn actors/actresses, because they are wrong, I am saying let's help those who are being harmed, whether or not they are aware of or enjoy it.

I dont believe that all people who enjoy doing porn are being ''harmed'' by it. Though there are certainly a lot who put on the facade of enjoying it, when they actually dont. But for the ones who genuinely enjoy it, then there's no problem. I do think in general though, the porn industry is more harmful than harmless to those participating in it, especially the women.

Quote:
That is a flaw in logic. It's like saying: If we haven't sent a man to Mars by now, then we never will. I am as pessimistic as you (although for entirely different reasons), but that is no reason to give up and state that prostitution and drugs are forever. The only way to ensure that drug abuse will always exist is _to make it legal_. Instead of giving up we should ask ourselves: are we fighting drug abuse with the right methods? Are we trying to find a way to overcome the Earth's gravitational pull (to re-use my manned spaceship to Mars analogy) or are we trying to bring Mars closer to Earth. I believe the current fight with drug abuse resembles the latter.

Yep, I am pessimistic, but I am also a realist. As I mentioned before, humanity has ALWAYS had a dark heart, and always will. Therefore it is very foolish to think that the evil in our world is ever going to disappear. You say ''are we fighting drug abuse with the right methods'', but Im sure EVERY method possible has been attempted at one point or another, and all have failed. Man is a flawed species, and there is no point in trying to deny, or fight that fact. All we can do, is try and limit the suffering of the innocent as much as is possible to do. Even in saying that there is a flaw, as very few people are truly ''innocent''. Animals are innocent, but humans? Most of them certainly are not. But, obviously there are people who are not evil, and they should be protected as much as possible.

Quote:
Harming people is a criminal act. Drugs harm people, causing misery. Making drugs legal makes the state into the criminal directly responsible for the harm and misery caused.

Like I said, if you cant eliminate the problem, the best you can hope for, is damage limitation. Less misery and harm is better than the alternative. Drug users would have a higher rate of survival if drugs were legalised, and criminals would profit from it far less than by keeping them illegal.

Written by [user id=105293] on 20.07.2010 at 04:20

I can't ask every woman (or every man) in the porn industry whether they enjoy doing what they do. I can only go by what those say, who are willing to talk about it. If I am correct, that porn is harmful, then those who enjoy doing it - if they are out there - are clearly massochistic and self-destructive.

how is it in any way self-destructive:
-emotionally, if some of the people who do porn also enjoy it and even most don't mind about it(where is the emotional damage?)

-morally, if (most of) the people who do porn have a different moral system by which they don't care they're having sex for money?(and i presume most of them probably don't, you don't see real nuns doing porn now do you?)

this is actually the first time i've ever noticed discussions about abuse or self-abuse in the porn industry. given that it's legal in most countries in the world, can't the actresses just give up and do something more useful and supposedly less damaging like... getting another job? instead of simply writing and whining about the experiences that they chose in order to get a job. but oh wait, that brings money too, as kennoth pointed out..

as for prostitution, there is no reason in this world that can out-weigh legalizing it. after all how the hell else am i supposed to get laid??

Our government came up with a rather nifty solution. It is not illegal to sell sex, but it is illegal to buy sex and to profit from someone else selling sex. This makes it so that the hookers can't get caught if they report the customers and pimps, and gives them some form of protection.

And no, legalizing the prostitution industry would be highly idiotic, and I find myself asking the question whether any of the people supporting legalization have ever dealt with any people involved in it or criminals in general.

And shut the fuck up about damage limitation! If it was legal, then the industry would grow exponentially, affecting far more people. How is that for damage limitation?

Written by ForeverDarkWoods on 19.08.2010 at 00:21
Our government came up with a rather nifty solution. It is not illegal to sell sex, but it is illegal to buy sex and to profit from someone else selling sex. This makes it so that the hookers can't get caught if they report the customers and pimps, and gives them some form of protection.

And no, legalizing the prostitution industry would be highly idiotic, and I find myself asking the question whether any of the people supporting legalization have ever dealt with any people involved in it or criminals in general.

And shut the fuck up about damage limitation! If it was legal, then the industry would grow exponentially, affecting far more people. How is that for damage limitation?

If you are including me in "people supporting legalization", you really should have read through all my posts in this thread first before making that assumption. The part Ive bolded in your post is ALL I suggested should be legalised. I only ever stated that prostitutes themselves shouldnt be criminalised. I condemned both kerb crawlers and pimps earlier in the thread and said they SHOULD be prosecuted.

Written by Angelic Storm on 19.08.2010 at 01:24

Written by ForeverDarkWoods on 19.08.2010 at 00:21
Our government came up with a rather nifty solution. It is not illegal to sell sex, but it is illegal to buy sex and to profit from someone else selling sex. This makes it so that the hookers can't get caught if they report the customers and pimps, and gives them some form of protection.

And no, legalizing the prostitution industry would be highly idiotic, and I find myself asking the question whether any of the people supporting legalization have ever dealt with any people involved in it or criminals in general.

And shut the fuck up about damage limitation! If it was legal, then the industry would grow exponentially, affecting far more people. How is that for damage limitation?

If you are including me in "people supporting legalization", you really should have read through all my posts in this thread first before making that assumption. The part Ive bolded in your post is ALL I suggested should be legalised. I only ever stated that prostitutes themselves shouldnt be criminalised. I condemned both kerb crawlers and pimps earlier in the thread and said they SHOULD be prosecuted.

Yes, and that is an extremely good idea. In fact, the problem decreased by half when we decided to do that.

Written by ForeverDarkWoods on 19.08.2010 at 16:19
Yes, and that is an extremely good idea. In fact, the problem decreased by half when we decided to do that.

Well, your country is the proof that it works. Prostitution being illegal just helps pimps and "clients" to abuse prostitutes, because they cant get help or go to the police for fear of being arrested.