Written by Clintagräm on 03.04.2008 at 05:10
You said "Metal usually gets popular because it is simple, inoffensive, unchallenging, technically impressive, gimmicky and/or accessible." I'm asking can you give me any bands in your opinion that aren't popular because of this? And even if you do, someone could argue the point that they are one of these. Thus, one could argue ANY band ANYONE has heard of is popular, and thus, one of these, and I think that just seems, well, ignorant. There are actual GOOD bands (by my opinion of course) out there. Obviously, I can understand where you're coming from if you talk about a band like Dream Theater, Dimmu Borgir, Cradle of Filth, and such. But how do you consider bands that aren't (in my opinion) any of these? Bands like old school US Metal, or Martyr, or such. Or are you consider these few examples to be one of the following descriptions? Also you say "Metal usually..." so can you yourself provide any examples of other ways it becomes popular? That's what I was looking for. Hope I cleared it up.

Written by totaliteraliter on 03.04.2008 at 03:52

What do you mean, "Wrong"?

I meant wrong as if, you don't feel happy about the bands that are popular today being popular, or those "good" bands out there, to become popular because thus, by default, they must have on of these unfavorable characteristics that you listen above.

Pretty much all popular bands have some kind of appealing factor like that. Nowhere have I said that all bands with some of those characteristics are popular, or that all popular bands are bad. You're the one brining quality into it. Surely you don't think that "accessible" or "technically impressive" or "simple" are unequivocally unfavourable characteristics?

Written by totaliteraliter on 03.04.2008 at 07:16

Pretty much all popular bands have some kind of appealing factor like that. Nowhere have I said that all bands with some of those characteristics are popular, or that all popular bands are bad. You're the one brining quality into it. Surely you don't think that "accessible" or "technically impressive" or "simple" are unequivocally unfavourable characteristics?

You put them forth as such in my opinion. However, this argument is going nowhere. I'm interpreting something you obviously didn't mean.

haha Hot Topic you're American aren't you? LMAO fucking Herman Li Nice. haha fucking frustrated teens. LMAO " One Thousand shitty melodies" good shit man. Yup, "they have something true to say"

I don't support the term "True Metal", sorry...
good songs BTW.

Fact is, popular music is popular because it IS good. Whether you think it is or not. Popular music will always have certain features that appeal to a large audience. To argue quality you would have to determine which exact musical quality you're arguing about. Just remember that producers weren't born yesterday, most have been in the business for years and know exactly what they're doing when they pick bands to produce and produce them.

That's what happens in the real world. Heavy metal is produced in a similar way - a lot of bands are churning out music specifically aiming for an audience consisting of people that crave heavy music. That's why you get so many bands now that just lump a bunch of features together and make their sound.

Written by [user id=28106] on 21.04.2008 at 08:55

Fact is, popular music is popular because it IS good. Whether you think it is or not. Popular music will always have certain features that appeal to a large audience. To argue quality you would have to determine which exact musical quality you're arguing about. Just remember that producers weren't born yesterday, most have been in the business for years and know exactly what they're doing when they pick bands to produce and produce them.

That's what happens in the real world. Heavy metal is produced in a similar way - a lot of bands are churning out music specifically aiming for an audience consisting of people that crave heavy music. That's why you get so many bands now that just lump a bunch of features together and make their sound.

You could not be more wrong. I understand the central idea of what your saying and it's true, producers DO know what they're doing. And what they're doing is finding cookie cutter bands that will appeal to the masses sense of conformity.

Wether it's pop-music or the cultest basement black metal band all music comes with a trend. People as a whole will listen to the same music as their friends...or the group of people they would like to fit in with. A bands popularity is NOT proportionate to their talent or ability to write original or thought provoking music.

I'm not saying that just because a band is popular or 'mainstream' they are instantly bad. But to say that a band is popular because it is good is naive and just a little stupid.

Well, who are we to decide what's good or not good?

Written by Warman on 10.05.2008 at 00:34

Well, who are we to decide what's good or not good?

I don't know about you but when it sounds good to me I call it good, if it sounds like crap I call it crap.

When it comes to me and music everybody else's opinion only matters if it agrees with mine...just being honest with you all.

to me it has to do witha basis of 2 things; exposure and atmophere. Exposure all comes from the record companies effort to get the band known. Like setting up tours and signinig deals to get them exposed to the public. Getting a band on Headbangers Ball will get good exposure but it wont happen if the maneger or company doesnt have the money or connections. A band will most likely start out with a less known producer and work their way up.

It has to do with the atmosphere they put out because thats what gets them approved by the public. bands that are in the mainstream usually have just one type of emotion or sound their trying to put out. Take Slipknot for example, they gererally put out a more aggressive sound with easy to understand lyrics about; HATE, REVENGE, and HARM. their sound isnt very technical and it doesnt try to hard with simple melodies that will attract people easily. Thats what producers are looking for in metal music. Their looking for things that are easy to market and will be bought easily by alot of people.

Now, seeing that Slipknot are very populer, that you've read the first part of this, and you don't think what I'm saying is nonsense. then its easy to see that Slipknot are populer because its easy for Teenagers with common Teenage problems feel like they connect with this kind of music, and after all this might just say, " hey, i kinda like this". They will then experience more of this music and connect to the other bands which are most likely also mainstream. and they will find their nitch in the mainstream society.

If they like Metal Enough (and a good amount will) they will delve deeper into Metal and discover bands with more technicality and more thought provoking lyrics. They may still be in the mainstream but that doesnt mean that the bands are bad. If they feel the need to go deeper they will do their own searching and not just grasp at the nearest sounds being sent at them. and their Journey will grow from there.

This may be an utter waste of my time but I had an idea and I just ran with it. I hope someone gets the general idea I had and and that nobody tears my ass apart to bad for seeing a flaw in this (which I know are there).

No, you pretty much hit the nail on the head Termoth. People listen to music they can identify with. With teenagers these days (especially here in America) that's usually music that sings about anger or suicide or just being depressed.

What I always though was funny is the fact that the musicians in bands like Slipknot, Staind, Papa Roach, etc. are all in their mid-30's. Based on their lyrics alone you'd think they still lived with their parents...

Written by Gordon Freeman on 10.05.2008 at 00:39

Written by Warman on 10.05.2008 at 00:34

Well, who are we to decide what's good or not good?

I don't know about you but when it sounds good to me I call it good, if it sounds like crap I call it crap.

When it comes to me and music everybody else's opinion only matters if it agrees with mine...just being honest with you all.

Well this is a question that can't really be discussed. What's good or what's not. It's all up to you. And if something sells, a lot of people must think it's good. And I don't think it has a lot to do with people listening to stuff just because others do. Sure, people influence us. But if you keep listen to it, you have to think it's good. I'm not saying I like these popular bands, I'm just saying it can't really be discussed wether their songs are good or not. I'm saying Korn sucks, many would disagree with me.

Written by Warman on 10.05.2008 at 01:58

Written by Gordon Freeman on 10.05.2008 at 00:39

Written by Warman on 10.05.2008 at 00:34

Well, who are we to decide what's good or not good?

I don't know about you but when it sounds good to me I call it good, if it sounds like crap I call it crap.

When it comes to me and music everybody else's opinion only matters if it agrees with mine...just being honest with you all.

Well this is a question that can't really be discussed. What's good or what's not. It's all up to you. And if something sells, a lot of people must think it's good. And I don't think it has a lot to do with people listening to stuff just because others do. Sure, people influence us. But if you keep listen to it, you have to think it's good. I'm not saying I like these popular bands, I'm just saying it can't really be discussed wether their songs are good or not. I'm saying Korn sucks, many would disagree with me.

Of course it can be discussed. What do you think we're doing right now?

I understand what you're saying about people thinking that some of this popular dribble is actually good...and hey...whatever floats their goat right? But you can't tell me that they would be even listening to this stuff in the first place if their chosen clique of friends didn't. And sure there are exceptions to the rule, I understand that...I'm just generalizing.

And as far as those people who disagree with you...well from my stand point those people are wrong. I don't deal in grey areas when it comes to music. I either like it or I don't, devil-may-care...

Written by Gordon Freeman on 10.05.2008 at 02:17

Of course it can be discussed. What do you think we're doing right now?

I understand what you're saying about people thinking that some of this popular dribble is actually good...and hey...whatever floats their goat right? But you can't tell me that they would be even listening to this stuff in the first place if their chosen clique of friends didn't. And sure there are exceptions to the rule, I understand that...I'm just generalizing.

And as far as those people who disagree with you...well from my stand point those people are wrong. I don't deal in grey areas when it comes to music. I either like it or I don't, devil-may-care...

Yeah sure, I for one got into Metal thanks to friends (and mom). But I felt you thought a lot were listening to this shit music just 'cuz it's popular. It's probably true sometimes, but I think if they keep listen to it there must be another reason why.

Good music must be hard to catch and it means that it will have lasting quality. Nonlasting quality=commercial crap. Just like CoF and CoB for example. Also , any band must be good live if it wants to be good. So Dragonforce fuck off.

Written by Gordon Freeman on 09.05.2008 at 22:34

Written by [user id=28106] on 21.04.2008 at 08:55

Fact is, popular music is popular because it IS good. Whether you think it is or not. Popular music will always have certain features that appeal to a large audience. To argue quality you would have to determine which exact musical quality you're arguing about. Just remember that producers weren't born yesterday, most have been in the business for years and know exactly what they're doing when they pick bands to produce and produce them.

That's what happens in the real world. Heavy metal is produced in a similar way - a lot of bands are churning out music specifically aiming for an audience consisting of people that crave heavy music. That's why you get so many bands now that just lump a bunch of features together and make their sound.

You could not be more wrong. I understand the central idea of what your saying and it's true, producers DO know what they're doing. And what they're doing is finding cookie cutter bands that will appeal to the masses sense of conformity.

Wether it's pop-music or the cultest basement black metal band all music comes with a trend. People as a whole will listen to the same music as their friends...or the group of people they would like to fit in with. A bands popularity is NOT proportionate to their talent or ability to write original or thought provoking music.

I'm not saying that just because a band is popular or 'mainstream' they are instantly bad. But to say that a band is popular because it is good is naive and just a little stupid.

No, what I'm saying (and you've gotten most of my point) is that when a band, singer, artist (whatever you want to call it) is picked up by a producer or a label it is because they believe that they are GOOD or at the very least "will sell". What this means is the artist has particular features that producers have picked out that they believe will appeal to a large audience. A lot of pop singers have great voices, even if I or most people on here would rather cut our ears off before listening to them. The fact is that music comes in different styles, different tastes and different perceptions.

If I was to analyse a pop music song for its level of technicality or ability to perform live then I would probably say "this band is shit", but if I had to analyse a pop song based on its catchiness or accesibility then it would be a good song. That's the point I'm trying to make. I don't think anyone here could say they listen to heavy metal passively. I personally listen to it almost religiously, and interepret and reinterpret every song I hear and then every band in the larger context. People that are listening to pop music do not care about music as much, it's in the background for them. What they want to hear and what they base their perception of the song on is its simplicity, catchiness and production quality.

I think you can go into deeper arguments in regards to rap music and techno/electronica because a lot of techno music is quite intricate and diverse as well, whereas rap music (the more underground type, not hip hop) could be argued to have superior lyrical qualities to most other genres.

To me, heavy metal is able to offer a lot of quality and diversity in different aspects of music and lyrics, so I believe it IS superior to other genres and will continue to be. I think it's important to critique popular songs and any songs for the qualities they lack, but to disregard them completely isn't fair.

Written by totaliteraliter on 02.04.2008 at 07:26

Written by Clintagräm on 02.04.2008 at 07:16

Written by totaliteraliter on 02.04.2008 at 07:11
So did I.

Well, Death seems to be popular in the Metal world and they don't fit your description well. (And I don't even like them that much, ha!)

They are certainly inoffensive, unchallenging, technically impressive and accessible. Simple in a sense. Gimmicky in that he died young during his "prime", but in his defense he may not have planned it that way. Relatively well advertised also, you used to see him in Guitar Magazine (or was it Guitar World?).

What is wrong with being technically proficient/impressive?

Written by Number Juan on 13.05.2008 at 05:50

Written by totaliteraliter on 02.04.2008 at 07:26

Written by Clintagräm on 02.04.2008 at 07:16

Written by totaliteraliter on 02.04.2008 at 07:11
So did I.

Well, Death seems to be popular in the Metal world and they don't fit your description well. (And I don't even like them that much, ha!)

They are certainly inoffensive, unchallenging, technically impressive and accessible. Simple in a sense. Gimmicky in that he died young during his "prime", but in his defense he may not have planned it that way. Relatively well advertised also, you used to see him in Guitar Magazine (or was it Guitar World?).

What is wrong with being technically proficient/impressive?

It makes those that aren't jealous.

Written by Gordon Freeman on 10.05.2008 at 01:20

No, you pretty much hit the nail on the head Termoth. People listen to music they can identify with. With teenagers these days (especially here in America) that's usually music that sings about anger or suicide or just being depressed.

What I always though was funny is the fact that the musicians in bands like Slipknot, Staind, Papa Roach, etc. are all in their mid-30's. Based on their lyrics alone you'd think they still lived with their parents...

Based on the price of real estate nowadays, they probably do...

Written by [user id=28106] on 13.05.2008 at 17:07

Written by Number Juan on 13.05.2008 at 05:50

Written by totaliteraliter on 02.04.2008 at 07:26

Written by Clintagräm on 02.04.2008 at 07:16

Written by totaliteraliter on 02.04.2008 at 07:11
So did I.

Well, Death seems to be popular in the Metal world and they don't fit your description well. (And I don't even like them that much, ha!)

They are certainly inoffensive, unchallenging, technically impressive and accessible. Simple in a sense. Gimmicky in that he died young during his "prime", but in his defense he may not have planned it that way. Relatively well advertised also, you used to see him in Guitar Magazine (or was it Guitar World?).

What is wrong with being technically proficient/impressive?

It makes those that aren't jealous.

Written by Number Juan on 13.05.2008 at 05:50

Written by totaliteraliter on 02.04.2008 at 07:26

Written by Clintagräm on 02.04.2008 at 07:16

Written by totaliteraliter on 02.04.2008 at 07:11
So did I.

Well, Death seems to be popular in the Metal world and they don't fit your description well. (And I don't even like them that much, ha!)

They are certainly inoffensive, unchallenging, technically impressive and accessible. Simple in a sense. Gimmicky in that he died young during his "prime", but in his defense he may not have planned it that way. Relatively well advertised also, you used to see him in Guitar Magazine (or was it Guitar World?).

What is wrong with being technically proficient/impressive?

Where did I say there was something inherently wrong with it?

Written by totaliteraliter on 15.05.2008 at 00:23

Written by Number Juan on 13.05.2008 at 05:50

Written by totaliteraliter on 02.04.2008 at 07:26

Written by Clintagräm on 02.04.2008 at 07:16

Written by totaliteraliter on 02.04.2008 at 07:11
So did I.

Well, Death seems to be popular in the Metal world and they don't fit your description well. (And I don't even like them that much, ha!)

They are certainly inoffensive, unchallenging, technically impressive and accessible. Simple in a sense. Gimmicky in that he died young during his "prime", but in his defense he may not have planned it that way. Relatively well advertised also, you used to see him in Guitar Magazine (or was it Guitar World?).

What is wrong with being technically proficient/impressive?

Where did I say there was something inherently wrong with it?

They are certainly inoffensive, unchallenging, technically impressive and accessible.

All those things are bad or usually used in a derogaroty manner, so I assumed you thought there was something wrong with being technically impressive.

Written by Warman on 10.05.2008 at 00:34

Well, who are we to decide what's good or not good?

I'm the Dane Train, and what I say is law.

Written by Dane Train on 16.05.2008 at 00:17

Written by Warman on 10.05.2008 at 00:34

Well, who are we to decide what's good or not good?

I'm the Dane Train, and what I say is law.

Hahaha, okay I get the point. What if I change my statement to "who are we to decide what people should listen to" then?

we are the arbiters of (bad) taste.

Written by Number Juan on 15.05.2008 at 04:17
They are certainly inoffensive, unchallenging, technically impressive and accessible.

All those things are bad or usually used in a derogaroty manner, so I assumed you thought there was something wrong with being technically impressive.

If you'll notice, the topic was not what makes a band bad, but what makes them popular.

Written by totaliteraliter on 16.05.2008 at 01:04

Written by Number Juan on 15.05.2008 at 04:17
They are certainly inoffensive, unchallenging, technically impressive and accessible.

All those things are bad or usually used in a derogaroty manner, so I assumed you thought there was something wrong with being technically impressive.

If you'll notice, the topic was not what makes a band bad, but what makes them popular.

Again, popularity (especially in metal forums) is usually seen as a bad thing. I thought you subscribed to the school of thought popular=bad. If you do not, then my bad.

Written by Warman on 16.05.2008 at 00:19

Written by Dane Train on 16.05.2008 at 00:17

Written by Warman on 10.05.2008 at 00:34

Well, who are we to decide what's good or not good?

I'm the Dane Train, and what I say is law.

Hahaha, okay I get the point. What if I change my statement to "who are we to decide what people should listen to" then?

We're nobody, that's who. I'm not saying we should decide what other people listen to. Doesn't mean we can't make fun of them for it though...

Written by Gordon Freeman on 17.05.2008 at 02:15

We're nobody, that's who. I'm not saying we should decide what other people listen to. Doesn't mean we can't make fun of them for it though...

Ah okay.

Hmm, well I suppose spending a few hours making this video is better than going out and beating on people with tastes that differ from yours...

There is no "correct" way to do anything in music. There is only a correct way to play in order to conform to a genre. Doing the latter is typically boring.

Pretty funny actually...I'm not pissed. I watched that Derek Roddy video (on its own) about a million times, haha. "The Number 12 Looks like You"....fags....

As long as they're following there musical direction, goal, whatever, let em' be. Your vision of True Metal can be what you want it to be.