The whole purpouse of this thread was already covered by Sam Dunn

Actually i think some roots of metal maybe very original roots of metal came from a guy named Richard Wagner he is like father to metal in a way he is very very talented and creative in Diminished songs u will understand if u give it a try

Written by Malphas on 12.07.2013 at 06:57

I feel like i should leave this here...

This post has revealed to me that there are an additional three tracks on Portal I did not have (as my friend burned it for me). This is a tremendous discovery, a happy man am I!

Cannot wait to listen to this masterpiece in its entirety, but shall start at the beginning as was intended.

That post is almost 3 years old, but sure, always happy to help xD

Written by _deepblack on 11.11.2014 at 23:04

Actually i think some roots of metal maybe very original roots of metal came from a guy named Richard Wagner he is like father to metal in a way he is very very talented and creative in Diminished songs u will understand if u give it a try

Beethoven has as much claim, and he did it first.

Yeah, I think some classic rock had an influence of metal....Rock is what I started off with before I dived into metal...I am thinking of folks like Eric Clapton, The Beatles, The Doors for example....8-]]

Every modern music (including metal) has roots in "classical" music: Medieval, Baroque and XIX century music especially).

The way of composing metal riffs is very similar to composing melodies for strings quartets or orchestra.

Classical music was basically just Metal before there was electricity. Fans of both music have the exact same thirst for grandiose presentation in what they listen to.

Grandiose presentation? Someone's been listening to film scores and romantic symphonies, I guess. >_> I don't really see the connection to a Bach cello suite, a Schubert lied or a Reneissance vocal piece.

I get that the big, bombastic tunes appeal to the plebs because they're recognizable, but I don't think that's what many classical fans listen for. The Wagner comparison (a few posts above) is especially inane; have you actually been to a Wagner opera? Just because he's known for the brief bit that opens the third (second?) act of the Valkyrie doesn't mean it's often like that. He is notoriously unmelodic, unrelenting, teasing and exhausting the listener with endless tension that very rarely resolves into satisfying moments. That's what makes those moments so powerful in their context (not so much separately; I'd much rather listen to Mozart arias on their own). He is the polar opposite of metal's instant gratification and kick-ass aesthetic. After sitting through 4 hours of Tristan and Isolde, I assure you, Iron Maiden is the last thing on your mind.

This self-gratulatory fantasy makes me puke. Metal is straightforward and in your face, with emphasis on rhythm. Classical music doesn't rely on rhythm much at all, with much more attention to complex rules than easy comprehension. Sure, there are similarities, but that's true of all Western music (and music in general). Writing riffs "like classical" is hardly unique to metal (and I'm not even sure what that means; the short, repeating nature of the riff is antithetical to most classical preferences).

I couldn't agree with IronAngel more. Metal is not an organic growth from classical. Metal comes from rock, which is mostly based on blues and european folk music. I think the genre with the strongest influence on metal is definitely blues, as Black Sabbath are generally considered the first metal band and they started as a blues band. I'm not saying there is no connection between metal and classical, but that I think the classical influence on metal is an after the fact affectation. If you listen to early blues artists such as Son House, Robert Johnson, or Blind Lemon Jefferson, and think of the same stuff played a little heavier and with distortion, I think you will hear many similarities to metal.

Written by Become Death on 18.12.2017 at 14:24

I couldn't agree with IronAngel more. Metal is not an organic growth from classical. Metal comes from rock, which is mostly based on blues and european folk music. I think the genre with the strongest influence on metal is definitely blues, as Black Sabbath are generally considered the first metal band and they started as a blues band. I'm not saying there is no connection between metal and classical, but that I think the classical influence on metal is an after the fact affectation. If you listen to early blues artists such as Son House, Robert Johnson, or Blind Lemon Jefferson, and think of the same stuff played a little heavier and with distortion, I think you will hear many similarities to metal.

Although I too agree with IronAngel's comment and with you about that metal evolved more from rock than from classical music, I can't here much blues in metal (with some exceptions, like Black Sabbath). Metal is way more rock than blues. The main thing that separates metal (almost more than its weight) from hard rock is that metal has got rid of the blues element. Early Judas Priest may have some influences from it, but I can't here any such influences in Iron Maiden. Sure there are classical influences in a lot of metal bands, for example already in Judas Priest (and Black Sabbath's song "Black Sabbath" was influenced by Gustav Holst's "Mars"), but there are a lot of metal that don't have any influences from it too. Take Slayer, for example (or most of their followers)? Where are the classical influences in them? And Iron Maiden was clearly influenced by progressive rock, but it is easier to find influences from folk music in them than from classical music. And, like IronAngel, I can't think of metal when I listen to Wagner's "Tristan und Isolde", although I have really tried. I don't know much about Wagner's other works, though. Some classical works are great, but there are great pop music too. In general classical music is not for me, although I have given it an attempt. I listen more to pop.

Written by Aristarchos on 27.12.2017 at 21:31

Metal is way more rock than blues.

I think we're mostly agreeing, but this statement makes almost no sense to me, considering rock is almost exclusively based on blues. Some European folk influence too, but rock is really based more on blues than anything else.

I am a big fan of both metal and classical music and have seen classical orchestras play live as well as regular metal shows. Metal, especially some of the more complex and melodic subgenres, has taken a lot of inspiration from classical music. Just listen to some of Beethoven's compositions like the third movement of his Moonlight Sonata and you can hear the beginnings of power metal! I'll post a link to show what I'm talking about:

Written by Aristarchos on 27.12.2017 at 21:31

Written by Become Death on 18.12.2017 at 14:24

I couldn't agree with IronAngel more. Metal is not an organic growth from classical. Metal comes from rock, which is mostly based on blues and european folk music. I think the genre with the strongest influence on metal is definitely blues, as Black Sabbath are generally considered the first metal band and they started as a blues band. I'm not saying there is no connection between metal and classical, but that I think the classical influence on metal is an after the fact affectation. If you listen to early blues artists such as Son House, Robert Johnson, or Blind Lemon Jefferson, and think of the same stuff played a little heavier and with distortion, I think you will hear many similarities to metal.

Although I too agree with IronAngel's comment and with you about that metal evolved more from rock than from classical music, I can't here much blues in metal (with some exceptions, like Black Sabbath). Metal is way more rock than blues. The main thing that separates metal (almost more than its weight) from hard rock is that metal has got rid of the blues element. Early Judas Priest may have some influences from it, but I can't here any such influences in Iron Maiden. Sure there are classical influences in a lot of metal bands, for example already in Judas Priest (and Black Sabbath's song "Black Sabbath" was influenced by Gustav Holst's "Mars"), but there are a lot of metal that don't have any influences from it too. Take Slayer, for example (or most of their followers)? Where are the classical influences in them? And Iron Maiden was clearly influenced by progressive rock, but it is easier to find influences from folk music in them than from classical music. And, like IronAngel, I can't think of metal when I listen to Wagner's "Tristan und Isolde", although I have really tried. I don't know much about Wagner's other works, though. Some classical works are great, but there are great pop music too. In general classical music is not for me, although I have given it an attempt. I listen more to pop.

With regards to Wagner, I think his main influence on rock is via the Ring Cycle, and even there it's more the aesthetics and themes that are influential rather than the actual music, though the individual segment Ride of the Valkyries certainly influenced a lot of songs. The classical musicians who I think are biggest influences musically on metal (or at least have the most superficial semblance) are Vivaldi, Beethoven, Ravel, and Stravinsky (the last only on certain extreme metal though).

Written by Ganondox on 29.03.2018 at 20:54

The classical musicians who I think are biggest influences musically on metal (or at least have the most superficial semblance) are Vivaldi, Beethoven, Ravel, and Stravinsky (the last only on certain extreme metal though).

What are you thinking of, specifically, as regards Ravel?

I think it's obvious that classical music has "inspired" or "influenced" plenty of metal, but that's true of virtually any music genre (in different ways). It would be pretty weird if the world's most popular, well-known pieces of music had no impact on musicians who, in all likelihood, had to play them time and again during their training, whether at conservatories or private lessons.

But acknowledging that is almost trivial. Without doubt, metal (as other umbrella genres) has been equally influenced by other, comparably well-known music. The fact that some people feel the need to stress the classical connection is probably for two reasons:
1) It sounds cool and respectable, trying to siphon some of the prestige of classical for metal. That's what irritates me the most, kind of like people who go to classical concerts just because it's the "appropriate" thing to do. It's as if they're worried metal isn't legitimate music on its own merits.
2) It's not the closest, most obvious comparison, which makes it seem relevant. Classical music is far enough removed from metal, and unfamiliar enough for most metal fans, to make the similarities seem surprising. Of course you'll find similarities like the Beethoven sonata above (like, eh, plenty of notes played in quick succession?) if you take bits out of contect (a classical piece is hardly defined by any single melodic passage). But that's just because the much more obvious influences are taken for granted. I'm sure that early 21st century metal is much influenced by Bruce Springsteen, being what the musicians heard a lot on the radio as kids, but it's too obvious and familiar to pick up on.

I hear plenty of "classical influence" in piano-driven singer-songwriter stuff, prog, krautrock, electronic music and plunderphonics, various forms of jazz, post-rock, types of experimental and free folk, art/chamber pop etc. Hell, Pet Shop Boys' Go West is basically built on Pachelbel. It's not like "classical influence" is exactly uncommon in Western popular music; more like inevitable.

Written by IronAngel on 30.03.2018 at 11:16

Written by Ganondox on 29.03.2018 at 20:54

The classical musicians who I think are biggest influences musically on metal (or at least have the most superficial semblance) are Vivaldi, Beethoven, Ravel, and Stravinsky (the last only on certain extreme metal though).

What are you thinking of, specifically, as regards Ravel?

I think it's obvious that classical music has "inspired" or "influenced" plenty of metal, but that's true of virtually any music genre (in different ways). It would be pretty weird if the world's most popular, well-known pieces of music had no impact on musicians who, in all likelihood, had to play them time and again during their training, whether at conservatories or private lessons.

But acknowledging that is almost trivial. Without doubt, metal (as other umbrella genres) has been equally influenced by other, comparably well-known music. The fact that some people feel the need to stress the classical connection is probably for two reasons:
1) It sounds cool and respectable, trying to siphon some of the prestige of classical for metal. That's what irritates me the most, kind of like people who go to classical concerts just because it's the "appropriate" thing to do. It's as if they're worried metal isn't legitimate music on its own merits.
2) It's not the closest, most obvious comparison, which makes it seem relevant. Classical music is far enough removed from metal, and unfamiliar enough for most metal fans, to make the similarities seem surprising. Of course you'll find similarities like the Beethoven sonata above (like, eh, plenty of notes played in quick succession?) if you take bits out of contect (a classical piece is hardly defined by any single melodic passage). But that's just because the much more obvious influences are taken for granted. I'm sure that early 21st century metal is much influenced by Bruce Springsteen, being what the musicians heard a lot on the radio as kids, but it's too obvious and familiar to pick up on.

I hear plenty of "classical influence" in piano-driven singer-songwriter stuff, prog, krautrock, electronic music and plunderphonics, various forms of jazz, post-rock, types of experimental and free folk, art/chamber pop etc. Hell, Pet Shop Boys' Go West is basically built on Pachelbel. It's not like "classical influence" is exactly uncommon in Western popular music; more like inevitable.

With Ravel most people point out the similarities between Bolero and the riff oriented compositions of metal music, but I find Toccata to be the most similar. If played on electric guitar it would practically be heavy metal as it, it's got the rhythm, harmonies, and melodic structures down. Of course his typical impressionist sound is nothing like metal.

Written by Ganondox on 01.04.2018 at 02:20

With Ravel most people point out the similarities between Bolero and the riff oriented compositions of metal music, but I find Toccata to be the most similar. If played on electric guitar it would practically be heavy metal as it, it's got the rhythm, harmonies, and melodic structures down.

Oh yeah, that's true about Bolero. I had no recollection of the toccata or the piece it's a part of, although we seem to have it (along with all his solo piano works) on CD. What's interesting and perhaps telling is that Bolero was specifically written for ballet, and Le Tombeau de Couperin as a whole is inspired by baroque dance suites (Wikipedia ftw). So classical is closest to metal and rhythmic popular music when it's associated with dancing? That wouldn't be surprising.

I think of jazz when I think of Ravel, mostly because of the Piano Concerto in G Major, one of my favorites. He does have quite a lot of breadth!

Written by IronAngel on 01.04.2018 at 11:50

Written by Ganondox on 01.04.2018 at 02:20

With Ravel most people point out the similarities between Bolero and the riff oriented compositions of metal music, but I find Toccata to be the most similar. If played on electric guitar it would practically be heavy metal as it, it's got the rhythm, harmonies, and melodic structures down.

Oh yeah, that's true about Bolero. I had no recollection of the toccata or the piece it's a part of, although we seem to have it (along with all his solo piano works) on CD. What's interesting and perhaps telling is that Bolero was specifically written for ballet, and Le Tombeau de Couperin as a whole is inspired by baroque dance suites (Wikipedia ftw). So classical is closest to metal and rhythmic popular music when it's associated with dancing? That wouldn't be surprising.

I think of jazz when I think of Ravel, mostly because of the Piano Concerto in G Major, one of my favorites. He does have quite a lot of breadth!

That sounds about right. One thing I'd like to add is that my music history teacher stated that he believed Toccata specifically was inspired by the rhythmic sounds of machinery, which was also an influence on many heavy metal bands.

Written by Aristarchos on 27.12.2017 at 21:31

Written by Become Death on 18.12.2017 at 14:24

I couldn't agree with IronAngel more. Metal is not an organic growth from classical. Metal comes from rock, which is mostly based on blues and european folk music. I think the genre with the strongest influence on metal is definitely blues, as Black Sabbath are generally considered the first metal band and they started as a blues band. I'm not saying there is no connection between metal and classical, but that I think the classical influence on metal is an after the fact affectation. If you listen to early blues artists such as Son House, Robert Johnson, or Blind Lemon Jefferson, and think of the same stuff played a little heavier and with distortion, I think you will hear many similarities to metal.

Although I too agree with IronAngel's comment and with you about that metal evolved more from rock than from classical music, I can't here much blues in metal (with some exceptions, like Black Sabbath). Metal is way more rock than blues. The main thing that separates metal (almost more than its weight) from hard rock is that metal has got rid of the blues element. Early Judas Priest may have some influences from it, but I can't here any such influences in Iron Maiden. Sure there are classical influences in a lot of metal bands, for example already in Judas Priest (and Black Sabbath's song "Black Sabbath" was influenced by Gustav Holst's "Mars"), but there are a lot of metal that don't have any influences from it too. Take Slayer, for example (or most of their followers)? Where are the classical influences in them? And Iron Maiden was clearly influenced by progressive rock, but it is easier to find influences from folk music in them than from classical music. And, like IronAngel, I can't think of metal when I listen to Wagner's "Tristan und Isolde", although I have really tried. I don't know much about Wagner's other works, though. Some classical works are great, but there are great pop music too. In general classical music is not for me, although I have given it an attempt. I listen more to pop.

The main difference between Metal and the 70s rock that came before it is the blues influence on the rhythm only. The early metal bands in Traditional Heavy Metal still mostly employed blues style soloing similar to the 70s to a fair extent. I've specifically listened to the entire Iron Maiden catalogue just to listen for this exact thing and all of their solos except for Flash of the Blade (which is classical based) has a blues structure; maybe not entirely in the Seventh Son of a Seventh Son album but it's still present.

Wagner has a lot of works that could be easily transferable to metal. Tristan und Isolde is however, the last thing. Wagner is my favourite music of any music that has ever existed. Check these out (metal covers of Wagner songs).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlQaie1GE58
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Llmk2V8TY4w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90z5we_jnsk

Also, Therion did some Wagner adaptations live and recorded an album, The Miskolc Experience.

Hello guys,

That explains how metal and classical are compositionally similar, but gives no explanation on why the fans' personality types are similar. I think you'd need to go into some psych to figure that one out probably.


thanks and regards

Written by All Metal on 03.11.2019 at 20:54

The main difference between Metal and the 70s rock that came before it is the blues influence on the rhythm only. The early metal bands in Traditional Heavy Metal still mostly employed blues style soloing similar to the 70s to a fair extent. I've specifically listened to the entire Iron Maiden catalogue just to listen for this exact thing and all of their solos except for Flash of the Blade (which is classical based) has a blues structure; maybe not entirely in the Seventh Son of a Seventh Son album but it's still present.

Wagner has a lot of works that could be easily transferable to metal. Tristan und Isolde is however, the last thing. Wagner is my favourite music of any music that has ever existed. Check these out (metal covers of Wagner songs).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlQaie1GE58
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Llmk2V8TY4w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90z5we_jnsk

Also, Therion did some Wagner adaptations live and recorded an album, The Miskolc Experience.

I listened to "Seventh Son of a Seventh Son" and I understand what you mean. I don't think the solos in "The Evil That Men Do" and "Only The Good Die Young" would fit into a blues song, but the other ones do.

I am new at the forum and actually this is my first post. I would like to thank you for the high level of music education and quality of your posts. Please allow my to add, that music as all other arts, is open to influences by other arts. There are so many similarities and on the other hand many differences.
Beyond social points and historical references I honestly believe that Heavy Metal is the only kind of modern music that is close to classic music.
Art is the global inheretence of humanity from this point of view our beloved music is created on strong base of classic music.

Written by All Metal on 03.11.2019 at 20:54

Wagner has a lot of works that could be easily transferable to metal. Tristan und Isolde is however, the last thing. Wagner is my favourite music of any music that has ever existed. Check these out (metal covers of Wagner songs).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlQaie1GE58
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Llmk2V8TY4w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90z5we_jnsk

Also, Therion did some Wagner adaptations live and recorded an album, The Miskolc Experience.

Well, I mean, most melodies can be turned into metal with a guitar, a thumping beat and enough distortion. I'm not saying there aren't moments there, but you could find them anywhere and, more importantly, you can find jazz, electronica, light a cappella, and probably fucking ocarina covers of many classical standards. And let's not even get into the pop and country versions of classical Christmas music! YouTube's also full of metal covers of Britney Spears and children's show tunes, but we wouldn't take that as evidence of their great influence on metal.

With Wagner, specifically, I think it's telling that it's always these easy snippets that get translated (well apart from the Funeral March video, that was very unusual). Although it's what people who don't really listen to classical know Wagner for (because they serve as handy standalone pieces in weddings, war films, or whatever!), they're sort of the opposite of what Wagner's full operas feel like. As I said earlier, his whole thing, what makes him so mesmerizing in my opinion, is the ability to withhold satisfaction, too tease with unfinished bits of melody in a continuous torrent of music that exhausts you by demanding total focus. I was never impressed with the Ride of the Valkyries as a stand-alone, but in the context of a 5-hour opera it is a welcome focal point. (Granted, I've only seen the Ring cycle on DVD, just Parsifal and Tristan live.) Psychologically, if I had to compare the experience of listening to Wagner to something in metal, it would be drone. The instrumental masturbation of someone like Vivaldi is closer to the heavy metal spirit - but again, that similarity is pretty fundamental to humans and not indicative of some exceptional kinship.

Written by Autistic.Pagan on 14.12.2017 at 04:56

Classical music was basically just Metal before there was electricity. Fans of both music have the exact same thirst for grandiose presentation in what they listen to.

There's a huge difference between them but anyway every one has his opinion

Written by Oliver Smith on 12.12.2019 at 23:21

I am new at the forum and actually this is my first post. I would like to thank you for the high level of music education and quality of your posts. Please allow my to add, that music as all other arts, is open to influences by other arts. There are so many similarities and on the other hand many differences.
Beyond social points and historical references I honestly believe that Heavy Metal is the only kind of modern music that is close to classic music. Liteblue
Art is the global inheretence of humanity from this point of view our beloved music is created on strong base of classic music.

Awesome. Thank you very much.

I am also a fan of both metal and classical-which is why I think that symphonic metal is one of the best genres out there-when done propertly. Ex: Tristania, Nightwish, Ignea, and Opera IX.