What seems to happen is that metal is just more known on North America and Europe, I guess... You can see this when you watch a Hollywood movie for instance: Lots of them play metal and even extreme metal when the movie ends, and these small contacts end up making people used to the genre... I don't know how is it in Australia but here in Brazil you almost never hear metal as background music on our movies, because it's just not what people listen to...
That's why the data by Troy isn't actually surprising for a North American country.

Also about basing that a band is not mainstream on the fact that there are people that don't know the band when asked about it: But it could be that a random 50 y/o guy is just not following the main stream of music... For instance, ask the same 50y/o guy who doesn't know Metallica if he knows "One Direction" or "Chris Brown". The answer is most likely the same "no". But does that mean that Chris Brown and One Direction aren't mainstream?
For making a good sample of average person's knowledge about whether they know a mainstream extreme band or not, I think it would be good to select those who are not outdated about what mainstream music is. Among those I don't think there's much who haven't heard of Metallica, for instance.

Written by Karlabos on 05.08.2014 at 15:49

For instance, ask the same 50y/o guy who doesn't know Metallica if he knows "One Direction" or "Chris Brown". The answer is most likely the same "no". But does that mean that Chris Brown and One Direction aren't mainstream?

That's a very good point.

I'm gonna add my two cents. I became a metalhead while in Brazil, and while I didn't see much metalheads on the streets, I know there is a lot of metalheads in that country, like a huge Iron Maiden fanbase. Metallica was actually played during our school band concert. In Indonesia, I see metalheads on the streets all the time, wearing extreme metal t-shirts. I don't know how much the average person in the population knows about it as I don't really talk to them about those things, but metal is definitely a thing there, heck the president incumbent is a metalhead. As for myself, I've known of the big 4 of thrash (except Anthrax) long before I became a metalhead, while the only big 4 of grunge I knew was Nirvana (and maybe Pearl Jam). I may have also known Cannibal Corpse and Sepultura, and the only other metal bands I knew where Iron Maiden and Black Sabbath (well, AC/DC, Guns N' Roses, Led Zeppelin, Motely Crue, Korn, and Linkin Park as well, which I guess can be considered metal to varying degrees). I also knew of Mayhem, I just didn't know them by name. It's also worth noting the only metal subgenres I knew by name were death metal (they sing about killing people) and black metal (they actually kill people).

Written by deadone on 06.08.2014 at 04:51

Having travelled through Europe, including smaller cities like Zadar, Split, Tours and Lyon (as well as some smaller towns in France and Austria, damn I'd so much rather live here in lush green Tasmania than in those grey horrible mass produced apartment buildings and cooky small apartments where most European urban dwellers seem to live (you don't see many houses in big European cities). Even the poor here get decent size houses with backyards.

Yeah, it sure can look like this, even for a native. But that's the difference between small and old countries where space is at a premium, and new, relatively sparcely populated ones, right?
/end off-topicness

Sorry dead one. No one has much power on the place they live in and it's hard to move etc, I should not have said it like that. I still think you base your views too much on what you see in Tasmania, I went a little overboard.

Traditionally "extreme metal" just referred to thrash, death, and black metal, subgenres that were "extreme" because of how far they pushed their aggressive sounds, lyrical themes, and onstage performances. Sometimes people argue that doom should be in there too because it's "extreme" in regard to its slow tempos (don't really agree with that, personally). Anyway, extreme and underground definitely aren't synonymous. Any subgenre of metal can be underground, but not all of them are "extreme." Hell, power metal is about as extreme as cotton candy, but there are still probably a good number of pretty obscure, off the radar bands within it.

You can be extreme and be underground or be extreme and not be underground.
You can be not extreme and underground or be not extreme and not be underground.
I have a friend who think to be mainstreamed you NEED to be on the radio.
I don't agree with that but he plays in a deathcore band and still thinks deathcore is underground.
Which is not the case at all here in Utah, and while I do not like his music he is a really good guitarist.

Written by Karlabos on 05.08.2014 at 15:49

Lots of them play metal and even extreme metal when the movie ends, and these small contacts end up making people used to the genre... I don't know how is it in Australia but here in Brazil you almost never hear metal as background music on our movies, because it's just not what people listen to...
That's why the data by Troy isn't actually surprising for a North American country.

Even My Little Pony has metal in it's BGM.

Yeah, metal is one of the standard textures available to American sound track designers, and it's often mixed with electronic to make an industrial metal-esque sound, though the body of most soundtracks is based around orchestral music. I think you hear metal the most in video game soundtracks.

Written by deadone on 06.08.2014 at 03:18

Hence opportunity for average person in Australia to be exposed to Slayer or Cannibal Corpse or whatever is extremely limited.

While I'm not sure how many people have actually heard their music, the band is pretty well known, probably the most well known of the big 4 after Metallica.

Written by deadone on 06.08.2014 at 04:51

Speaking of all this, no wonder Europeans like Sydney - it's got all of the above except cops with machineguns and diesel (you still get lots of smog and car fumes).

I have to say Sydney is the best city I've ever been too, and also one of the cleanest. Well, I visited while living in Jakarta, so my perceptions were fairly skewed at the time.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 05.08.2014 at 12:56

I am a 45+ (so compared to me your perspective is extremely limited since I have been on the face of this earth a lot longer that you ) person who functions totally normally in every day life and I have to agree with Troy and the Canadian. Even though metal isn't a popular genre of music as such I am sure that 60% or so of the general population of The Netherlands have heard of bands such as Metallica, Slayer, Anthrax, Megadeth, Iron Maiden and even Cannibal Corpse

Personally at least I find it hard to believe that 60% of the Swedish people knows Cannibal Corpse. I would say the same thing about Anthrax, at least of my generation, who is too young to remember their big days. I don't know how big they were here in the 80's and since i don't listen to them (or to Cannibal Corpse) I never speak to non-metaller about them. But one thing I have found interesting is how few people here in Sweden who even knows of Rush, although by many considered one of the biggest rock band in the world, but I think it is pretty safe to say there are more people in Sweden that knows Slayer, Megadeth and Dream Theater than knows of Rush.

Written by Aristarchos on 07.08.2014 at 11:31

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 05.08.2014 at 12:56

I am a 45+ (so compared to me your perspective is extremely limited since I have been on the face of this earth a lot longer that you ) person who functions totally normally in every day life and I have to agree with Troy and the Canadian. Even though metal isn't a popular genre of music as such I am sure that 60% or so of the general population of The Netherlands have heard of bands such as Metallica, Slayer, Anthrax, Megadeth, Iron Maiden and even Cannibal Corpse

Personally at least I find it hard to believe that 60% of the Swedish people knows Cannibal Corpse. I would say the same thing about Anthrax, at least of my generation, who is too young to remember their big days. I don't know how big they were here in the 80's and since i don't listen to them (or to Cannibal Corpse) I never speak to non-metaller about them. But one thing I have found interesting is how few people here in Sweden who even knows of Rush, although by many considered one of the biggest rock band in the world, but I think it is pretty safe to say there are more people in Sweden that knows Slayer, Megadeth and Dream Theater than knows of Rush.

man Slayer, Metallica, Megadeth, Anthrax was on Nat TV BIG 4 from Ullevi ... same was Maiden in 2005 ..... I think 100% swedes knows what maiden is

Written by Bad English on 09.08.2014 at 02:36

man Slayer, Metallica, Megadeth, Anthrax was on Nat TV BIG 4 from Ullevi ... same was Maiden in 2005 ..... I think 100% swedes knows what maiden is

Yeah but dude... RUSH... you just can't compare. Doesn't matter on what channel the big 4 was appearing trust me.
If they don't know rush by name... just spin Working Man or Tom Sawyer... trust me they'll know them
Pretty sure you can't do the same for Rainning Blood, Caught In A Mosh, Holy Wars (...) though you probably can for Run To The Hills and Enter Sandman.
And I'm pretty sure more people knows of Rush more than the most popular metal bands, and that worldwide. Look at the sales O.o

Quote:

man Slayer, Metallica, Megadeth, Anthrax was on Nat TV BIG 4 from Ullevi ... same was Maiden in 2005 ..... I think 100% swedes knows what maiden is

About Maiden and Metallica, of course next to everybody know them. Not sure if 60% know Anthrax, though, but I can be wrong. As I said I haven't talk about them with people so I don't know their reaction would be. And I don't think most people notice everything that is sent on television.

Written by Guib on 09.08.2014 at 05:52

Yeah but dude... RUSH... you just can't compare. Doesn't matter on what channel the big 4 was appearing trust me.
If they don't know rush by name... just spin Working Man or Tom Sawyer... trust me they'll know them
Pretty sure you can't do the same for Rainning Blood, Caught In A Mosh, Holy Wars (...) though you probably can for Run To The Hills and Enter Sandman.
And I'm pretty sure more people knows of Rush more than the most popular metal bands, and that worldwide. Look at the sales O.o

I'm pretty sure it is so in Canada (and probably many other countries), but not here in Sweden. And I think both Slayer and Megadeth (and especially Dream Theater, not to talk about Iron Maiden) sell more/album than Rush does here. There is a reason why Rush didn't visit Sweden during 25 years, because so few cared about them here, although I think many more people have caught their attention to them after their Sweden Rock Festival gig last year. Before that I even heard people who are into hard rock/metal becoming surprised that Rush was big enough to headline the festival! Although they in retrospective have gained a comparatively devoted fan base, I think the average Swedish people seem to be quite ignorant about them (or at least until a year ago), at least based on my own experience.

Written by Aristarchos on 09.08.2014 at 13:05

Written by Bad English on 09.08.2014 at 02:36

man Slayer, Metallica, Megadeth, Anthrax was on Nat TV BIG 4 from Ullevi ... same was Maiden in 2005 ..... I think 100% swedes knows what maiden is

About Maiden and Metallica, of course next to everybody know them. Not sure if 60% know Anthrax, though, but I can be wrong. As I said I haven't talk about them with people so I don't know their reaction is. And I don't think most people notice everything that is sent on television.

I think old folks and so called intelectuals kew BIG 4 was on Swe TV

Written by Bad English on 09.08.2014 at 13:28

I think old folks and so called intelectuals kew BIG 4 was on Swe TV

Still I'm not sure how many people outside metal could mention who the big 4 was, since every focus seemed to be on Metallica.

About Rush I would also add that I would probably never heard songs like Working Man or Tom Sawyer if I wasn't in this kind of music. I have heard Megadeth and Slayer more on radio than I have heard Rush. What is also interesting is that I have met at least three persons who talked about how much they loved Pink Floyd, but when I mentioned Rush, they had no idea of how they sounded (perhaps they knew the name), and when I played songs to them, they didn't seem to recognize them.

Written by Aristarchos on 09.08.2014 at 14:28

Written by Bad English on 09.08.2014 at 13:28

I think old folks and so called intelectuals kew BIG 4 was on Swe TV

Still I'm not sure how many people outside metal could mention who the big 4 was, since every focus seemed to be on Metallica.

I didn't sat they need to know BIG4 but those 4 bands what was in ullevi

Written by Aristarchos on 09.08.2014 at 14:32

About Rush I would also add that I would probably never heard songs like Working Man or Tom Sawyer if I wasn't in this kind of music. I have heard Megadeth and Slayer more on radio than I have heard Rush. What is also interesting is that I have met at least three persons who talked about how much they loved Pink Floyd, but when I mentioned Rush, they had no idea of how they sounded (perhaps they knew the name), and when I played songs to them, they didn't seem to recognize them.

Well that my friend is one hell of a surprise. In any case for me... I mean they've been
Around since what... end of the 60's. It's so strange. Well you sweden folks
Are real metal fans :-P

Written by Guib on 09.08.2014 at 23:36

Well that my friend is one hell of a surprise. In any case for me... I mean they've been
Around since what... end of the 60's. It's so strange. Well you sweden folks
Are real metal fans :-P

I don't have any album sales number, but I could illustrate it with comparing the highest chart position on Swedish album chart for different bands:
Rush #6
Slayer #4
Megadeth #4
Dream Theater #3 (two albums)
Iron Maiden #1 (four albums, also one #1 on single chart)
Metallica #1 (six albums)
In Flames #1 (two albums)
HammerFall #1 (two albums)
Sabaton #1
Ghost #1
Watain #1
Nightwish #3
Dark Tranquillity #3
Entombed #3
Evergrey #4
Opeth #4
Haunted #5
Pain Of Salvation #6
Anthrax #21
Cannibal Corpse #37
Nile #27
Morbid Angel #41
Behemoth #45
Killswitch Engage #48
Trivium #56
I also doubt any of the deathcore bands have charted top 60.

I get what Aristarchos is talking about. From my experience Rush doesn't have the name recognition and mainstream presence in our northern corner of the world as they have in North America and (possibly) the UK. I'd never heard of the band until I started visiting various internet forums and boards. I've heard them on the radio once - a couple of years back the host for a hard rock / metal program said he'd read something about this band called Rush so he picked up Moving Pictures. And then he played "Vital Signs".

Written by deadone on 11.08.2014 at 06:14

Written by Aristarchos on 09.08.2014 at 14:28

Written by Bad English on 09.08.2014 at 13:28

I think old folks and so called intelectuals kew BIG 4 was on Swe TV

Still I'm not sure how many people outside metal could mention who the big 4 was, since every focus seemed to be on Metallica.

As for Rush, I doubt many "non-metallers" would've heard them here. I've only ever met one person who liked them in the local rock and metal communities. He was also the only person I've ever met who liked Jethro Tull as well.

Oh come on! In your local rock and metal communities, you've only encountered one person who knew of Rush and Jethro Tull. That seems suspect to me.

Written by deadone on 11.08.2014 at 08:31

Written by Diverge on 11.08.2014 at 07:16

Oh come on! In your local rock and metal communities, you've only encountered one person who knew of Rush and Jethro Tull. That seems suspect to me.

Learn to read. I said "liked them."

Actually I forgot his best buddy who liked Jethro Tull too.

Early morning posting- woops. I apologize if I obfuscated your point. You don't think many have HEARD Rush and you don't know many in your own rock community who LIKE Rush and Jethro Tull. Those two suggestions are still pretty ludicrous.

Written by Guib on 09.08.2014 at 05:52

Written by Bad English on 09.08.2014 at 02:36

man Slayer, Metallica, Megadeth, Anthrax was on Nat TV BIG 4 from Ullevi ... same was Maiden in 2005 ..... I think 100% swedes knows what maiden is

Yeah but dude... RUSH... you just can't compare. Doesn't matter on what channel the big 4 was appearing trust me.
If they don't know rush by name... just spin Working Man or Tom Sawyer... trust me they'll know them
Pretty sure you can't do the same for Rainning Blood, Caught In A Mosh, Holy Wars (...) though you probably can for Run To The Hills and Enter Sandman.
And I'm pretty sure more people knows of Rush more than the most popular metal bands, and that worldwide. Look at the sales O.o

The big metal bands are WAY more well known than Rush, no one really cares about Rush anymore except classic rock fans and proggers. Regarding album sales, Iron Maiden has sold more than twice as many albums than Rush, and plenty of other metal bands fill the gap, with some doing even better than Iron Maiden like Metallica.

Written by Ganondox on 15.08.2014 at 18:32
The big metal bands are WAY more well known than Rush, no one really cares about Rush anymore except classic rock fans and proggers. Regarding album sales, Iron Maiden has sold more than twice as many albums than Rush, and plenty of other metal bands fill the gap, with some doing even better than Iron Maiden like Metallica.

Your age is really showing, more so than in other threads where you try to act like an authority on things that predate your existence. I had to re-read this nonsense just to make sure I wasn't misinterpreting anything. No one really cares about Rush anymore? Is that why Snakes & Arrows sold nearly 100,000 copies in its first week of being released? And why the band overall has sold over 25 million units worldwide? I guess it's all those classic rock fans and proggers, but they don't count.

Maiden might be a higher-selling band, but trying to minimize the significance of a band like Rush is laughable. I suggest you research topics you don't know anything about before trying to state facts.

Written by Troy Killjoy on 15.08.2014 at 19:04

Written by Ganondox on 15.08.2014 at 18:32
The big metal bands are WAY more well known than Rush, no one really cares about Rush anymore except classic rock fans and proggers. Regarding album sales, Iron Maiden has sold more than twice as many albums than Rush, and plenty of other metal bands fill the gap, with some doing even better than Iron Maiden like Metallica.

Your age is really showing, more so than in other threads where you try to act like an authority on things that predate your existence. I had to re-read this nonsense just to make sure I wasn't misinterpreting anything. No one really cares about Rush anymore? Is that why Snakes & Arrows sold nearly 100,000 copies in its first week of being released? And why the band overall has sold over 25 million units worldwide? I guess it's all those classic rock fans and proggers, but they don't count.

Maiden might be a higher-selling band, but trying to minimize the significance of a band like Rush is laughable. I suggest you research topics you don't know anything about before trying to state facts.

"Your age is really showing" Maybe it is, but we are here to discuss metal, not make personal attacks against users.

"I wasn't misinterpreting anything." Well you failed at that. It seems the problem is you are taking my comment out of context, and then you read in that I was dissing Rush when I did not such thing. I was replying to this specific sentence: "And I'm pretty sure more people knows of Rush more than the most popular metal bands, and that worldwide. Look at the sales O.o" I looked at the sales, and Rush is apparently less popular than Iron Maiden.

Actually I put Rush at 40 million worldwide, which is more than 25 million (which is their US sales), Maiden is over 80 million. I'm not minimizing Rush's significance, they are an important progressive rock band, enough to get into the Rock N' Roll hall of fame (though it took them forever as it seems whoever runs the institution hates prog and metal), and they are extremely influential on progressive metal in particular, probably the single most influential band on the genre. There are plenty of other extremely influential musical acts that aren't particularly well known, like The Velvet Underground. When I say "no one really cares", obviously I'm not being literal, I'm just saying they aren't as big a band nowadays compared to many other bands. Is Rush well known? Of course, but so are the most popular metal bands. The point is in this thread we aren't talking about Rush, we are talking the popularity of metal bands, so it's meaningless to discuss Rush's absolute popularity among rock bands, only in relation to metal bands, so this is getting off topic. As far as I'm aware the most popular metal bands are much more well known than Rush is, especially among youth. Unless you take census of everyone in the world it's impossible to know for sure, but everyone I know who knows of Rush also knows of the most popular metal bands. On facebook Rush has less than 3 million likes, while Iron Maiden has more than 13 million. Considering this, I think Rush's album scales are actually slightly skewed in their favor because they are more album oriented than most metal bands. The most popular of metal bands are also probably more well known than Rush because they tend to stir up more controversy than Rush, so even if people don't listen to their music, they might have heard of them. While I exaggerated the popularity of the biggest metal bands in comparison to Rush, I'm not taking back my claim that the most popular metal bands are significantly more popular than Rush is.

" I guess it's all those classic rock fans and proggers" A lot of people are fans of classic rock bands, enough to keep them doing well and top the charts most the time, and rockers are one of the largest groups of music fans, but they are still technically a minority of music fans. Metalheads are also a large group of music fans, and some of the most popular metal bands are also considered classic rock bands, like Black Sabbath and Iron Maiden (well, maybe Maiden, but definitely Sabbath). Among classic rock bands, Rush is only moderately well known, and they are definitely more well known and respected among metal fans than the general public, who in terms of prog prefer Pink Floyd and Genesis (though was Genesis even still prog when they got popular?). They don't even have any songs I'd consider essential rock classics like Kansas does in order to expose them to the broader public, "Tom Sawyer" being the closest they have to one. While Rush sells more albums, everyone knows "Dust in the Wind", no one knows "Tom Sawyer" except rock fans. Their latest album got a spotlight on an airplane rock radio station I heard once, but that happens pretty much whenever a classic rock band releases a new album.

"I suggest you research topics you don't know anything about before trying to state facts." I actually do, I've done a lot of research in the past, and I made sure to double check my claims before I post anything unless I'm unable to because I'm not on my computer. If you want, I'll add sources. "where you try to act like an authority on things that predate your existence." I don't try to act like an authority on anything, I just type assertively and generally because that's the way I type, otherwise I get overly pedantic. If I find myself to be wrong, I'll admit as such and correct myself. Would you rather I start every claim with "I think"? Here I'm not even talking about anything which predates me, I'm talking about people now, and I think youth are the best to focus on when talking about how well known bands are now because old people get older, then they die, and new people keep being born, but rock has always been associated with youth.

That is a far lengthier response than I was expecting. My only real point in what I said is that Rush isn't some unknown band. Perhaps compared to the likes of Iron Maiden their overall fanbase is far smaller, but you made them sound like one of these obscure underground bands that nobody's ever heard of and stated that as if it was some kind of fact. That was my real problem with your comment - it's the way you presented your opinion. They're in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame (as well as the Canadian Music Hall of Fame), which is basically proof that they've achieved high levels of success in terms of sales and popularity.

As for Tom Sawyer - I'm not even sure who made this argument but I know it exists somewhere in this thread - it is in fact a well-known song. Just read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Sawyer_(song)

Written by Troy Killjoy on 15.08.2014 at 21:22


As for Tom Sawyer - I'm not even sure who made this argument but I know it exists somewhere in this thread - it is in fact a well-known song. Just read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Sawyer_(song)

Yeah, I looked at that while writing that overly long post, which is why I specified that I personally wouldn't put it on a list of essential rock hits. It's at least well known among rock fans, but I'm pretty sure "Dust in the Wind" and "Carry On My Wayward Son" are much more well known songs.

Written by Troy Killjoy on 15.08.2014 at 19:04

you try to act like an authority on things that predate your existence

seems to be a common thing these days....i blame the internet

Written by Ganondox on 15.08.2014 at 21:40

Written by Troy Killjoy on 15.08.2014 at 21:22


As for Tom Sawyer - I'm not even sure who made this argument but I know it exists somewhere in this thread - it is in fact a well-known song. Just read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Sawyer_(song)

Yeah, I looked at that while writing that overly long post, which is why I specified that I personally wouldn't put it on a list of essential rock hits. It's at least well known among rock fans, but I'm pretty sure "Dust in the Wind" and "Carry On My Wayward Son" are much more well known songs.

Wow to all of the above. I just want to say that I specified in my older post
That there was exceptions like maiden and metallica (when i made the comment about run to the hills
And enter sandman) my point was that iron maiden and metallica had the same or higher notoriety. It was
Actually an argument about swedish knowing more about the likes of slayer anthrax and megadeth. So the whole concersation was
Pointless lol. Fun nonetheless.

Written by Guib on 17.08.2014 at 22:46

Written by Ganondox on 15.08.2014 at 21:40

Written by Troy Killjoy on 15.08.2014 at 21:22


As for Tom Sawyer - I'm not even sure who made this argument but I know it exists somewhere in this thread - it is in fact a well-known song. Just read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Sawyer_(song)

Yeah, I looked at that while writing that overly long post, which is why I specified that I personally wouldn't put it on a list of essential rock hits. It's at least well known among rock fans, but I'm pretty sure "Dust in the Wind" and "Carry On My Wayward Son" are much more well known songs.

Wow to all of the above. I just want to say that I specified in my older post
That there was exceptions like maiden and metallica (when i made the comment about run to the hills
And enter sandman) my point was that iron maiden and metallica had the same or higher notoriety. It was
Actually an argument about swedish knowing more about the likes of slayer anthrax and megadeth. So the whole concersation was
Pointless lol. Fun nonetheless.

Ah, I see what you are saying now, didn't follow what you were saying the first time I read that.