Okay I'm tired of answering while there's nothing new coming out of this discution,but getting lost in manipulated details, and missing the whole point, Palestine is a nation under occupation,and every nation in the world deserves to rule itself,Palestinians are killed everyday,history stands for huge massacres done by Israel(the Sabra&Shatila massacre where 2000 palestinians where killed is this week to come) and people still consider the death of two Israelis in two months an equal attack.
"Israel declared its independance.." its independance from who?Jews were brought to Palestine by Britain and it was a tight plan to declare the'creation' of the state of israel the moment that Britain left Palestine.
"all the land was legally bought.." either you are ignorant because everything is recorded in videos,or you think I'd just belive what you say,man!...
"the Arabs living in Palestine lived in worse conditions.." yes first of all it was occupied, and in the pages of history, we always had people like you who said things like "the occupation improved the economy and a liberation war will destroy economy" and it always,and I say always,when the occupation was fired,things improve, for example what happened between Tunisia and the french occupation...



If you are going to post anything new maybe you would go back first to where I started my posts and surprisingly find the answer there.And I mainly don't appreciate the so called Hatred Infernal's manipulated history course,unless it's a joke(The British consistently took the Arab side in the conflicts) lol.

- What kind of action should different big nations and unions (UN, USA, EU, etc.) actually take in the different situations that are happening over there?

Big Nations and Unions should leave the Area alone because it is because of them all this is taking place ( of course they must interfere in cases of global security as is the current case with Iran)

- On who's side are you? Israel's or Palestine's? Why?

Israel doesnt care about my existance but I would stand by the side of anyone other than palastine we have refugee camps for them and one thing no lebanese christian can forget is their attempt to take over lebanon (1975) which lead to the biggest civil war the century has ever known... And because of so, I believe that Palastine sold itself by trying to take other people's lands while claiming to have a country to protect and fight for. So I say No for both, but ill never stand by the side of palestine.

- What should be done on Iran? How could we be sure of the true intentions of Iran's nuclear plans?
As for iran, well as Karl Marx said"the rapid improvement of all instruments of production, by the immensely facilitated means of communication, draws all, even the most barbarian, nations into civilisation."
This must be stopped... As for their true intentions... they want to drown israel hehe how do you think will they do that?

- What do you think about Iraq's current situation?
Hell on Earth

Was Saddams death penalty justified?
Well ... I say no about that ... because well at least he kept the country together by doing so... Noone can move a country from a state of total dictatorship into a direct state of democracy...

- How non-religious would you consider the different conflicts?
Never... They are all religous fights even if they dont show this to be.

- Would you consider peace in the Middle-East as a realistic dream?
The Middle East is a board for big countries to play risk on... so as soon as one country dominates fully the board, peace will take over... as simple as that

Lets step back a few steps here. May I ask a quesiton?

There are roughly 20 nations in the Arab League. The entire region is controled by arabs. Why is there so much attention payed to such a small piece of land? Remember that many countries had No identity until Britain relaesed controll of its colonialization of that region and others. As an example, there was no such country as Pakistan until Briton left the region. All nations have adjusted except for the Palistinians? why is this? they have been offered land but will not accept? hmmm

Written by Anthem on 27.09.2007 at 06:59

Lets step back a few steps here. May I ask a quesiton?

There are roughly 20 nations in the Arab League. The entire region is controled by arabs. Why is there so much attention payed to such a small piece of land? Remember that many countries had No identity until Britain relaesed controll of its colonialization of that region and others. As an example, there was no such country as Pakistan until Briton left the region. All nations have adjusted except for the Palistinians? why is this? they have been offered land but will not accept? hmmm

there are 50 states in the US,are you willing to let go 2 of them away to somebody who has an envy to take some other 20 states as a long term plan?Plus arab states are not such a union to talk about them that way,Palestine is Palestine Egypt is Egypt Tunisia is Tunisia,it's like saying that the EU is big enough to give some country away,it's just one little land.
all of the countries you talk about had an identity that's why they created a country,you can go yourself to some history books and see the age of the state of Palestine(Felistin) it goes way before there were even jews on earth.
as for the last question,its a good one,but surely the answer to it is not what you stated,Palestinians were offered land?would not accept? and even so?The struggle is not just for land,did you hear that the most of Palestinians are in refugee camps? did you hear about the thousands of prisonners in Israel? Those must be a part of the settlement don't you think?

I feel very sorry,I am a boarding student,I got back home yesterday,and I saw in the news what Israeli war machine did to Gazzah,they use F-16 war jets to bomb civilians??why is that??"Because there are 'rockets' coming out from Gazzah,"rockets that never killed a person,more than 40 lives were taken until this hour,THe whole territory is under siege,no food or drugs coming in,a thousand sick are in urgent need for grugs,they wait for death around the coming days,arabs wont move a muscle..What a great weekend..

Nice post Taka I agree with everything you say!

It is foten like anyone hates each other in Israel and Palestine and that the whole world hates Israel and the jews. Even though a political solution must be found, the first thing that has to end is the hatred. Children must not be teached to hate jews, nor must other children be theached that palestine are inferiour. I am not trying to convince anyone of a "love and peace" hippie kinda view, but I hope that everyone who is able to change anything here can take a step back and try to find a solution that is good to all. That is not just about Israel, but it's neccesary in the whole world right now.

And its true. For almost any event that occurs here, its almost always followed by civil unrest against Israeli infrastructure and law enforcement, and with Israel's no tolerance policy almost every reaction is followed by harsh repercussions. Myself, I also believe that Palestinians and Pro Palestinians should engage in peaceful demonstration; its often when nationalist movements become prone to violence, that any credibility or want for negotiation's is dissolved. Most of the time, violent protest is isolated and any argument that is presented in such a manner is ignored.

But also that fundamentalist ideology of the zionist cause affects the situation, especially those who blindly hate arabs in conjunction with the thought that Israeli land must be given up to try to build relations. In relative to the amount of hatred and intolerance, many say that it would take at least a few generations before our societies have progressed away from these thoughts and also on the part of Palestinians, the general motif of mixing fundamentalist religion and nationalism together. Getting rid of this, and embracing a reformed Palestinian government is one of the only ways that I think would help the situation.

I am positive though, if you look at the situation in perspective, ever since arafat died, fatah ( the govt. branch of the PA ) and hamas have been fighting over control for the territories, and I think the PA is slowly progressing to a more moderate direction, especially with Abbas declaring that Israel and Palestine should live as independent states, this has in turn, separated the PA from the common ideology that Israeli should not exist as a state whatsoever.

But with that said, the cycle is still continuing, and somewhat predictable. Hamas bascally controls gaza now, and with funds and a stream of weapons from other groups, its impossible to tell what could happen for their future, we just need to hope that Hamas deteriorates completely and somehow the PA can replace the hamas built institutions with their own... its indeed very complicated.

Man after all bad and good discussions with dudes like hellraizer .... 'if he considers me a dude'; I figuered out one point of conflict in here which is : What happened in Palestine before the declaration of Israel 1948.
How it declared itself as a country and who was owning those lands.
I would say that palestinian families deserted thier lands by force 'the Zionist Haganas Militias' & forced to sell thier lands to jews because they were in bad conditions though it was a stupid mistake to do.

Hellraizer says NO there was no owners .... Or whatever anyway i would like to qoute from you Hellraizer "You can't attack another country, lose, retreat, lose land, and then expect the country to give that land back"

And another qoute from Hatred Infernal "This is partially true because all the Palestinian landowners lived in Cairo, Damascus, Baghdad, Istanbul, etc. Almost nobody that actually lived in Palestine owned their own land." Actully i wasn't willing to comment on any qoutes but WOW babe Where the hell did you get those information that's funny because i know i'm fuckin' syrian & i know my country's stupid history though i know that palestinians were in Syria in 1948 when you made them by force to leave thier won land .

I hope you all see my point . that all of this discussion is bullshit & useless unless we have historical sources of what happened back then.

stop this non sense & goddamn the whole situation in the middle east ... And give our discussion in here some proves some evidences of what happened back then, then go back to the discussion. Because we are going nowhere.

To Hellraizer: missed you man.

Taka man i love you ...

And another thing......
Anyone knows what is happening in Gaza these days? & all the bombing happening there?& how many child was killed and wounded? Anyone knows what Israel the peaceful country is doing in there? & i emphsis on how many child died in there....

i'm affected with the mean and vicious propoganda , Right?

Go watch some news...... then get back to the discussion.

Written by akatana on 04.03.2008 at 21:40

I am curious, as you live in Israel, what are the things you personally see of this conflict? What is different in your everyday life because of this conflict? I suspect the lives of palestinians are quite affected by it, and I also suspect that to some lesser degree it affects israeli life. Is this topic often discussed in your country, I don't suppose they just say Yehiyeh Asher Yehiyeh? How are arabs viewed by people in israel?

I personally think that israelis have a different way of looking at the conflict, most of them, as they have access to education and information, and I also know of a lot of organizations for peace in israel. I imagine that for a palestinian child it is much harder to become open to the idea of reconciliation as it grows up in a much more uninformed, radical and violent surrounding. Forgive my ignorance but in my view, an educated people, secular and well-informed should see that harsh repercussions against palestinians will bring only more violence. I don't want to argue about the beginnings of the conflict, but as Israel is now a country and will certainly will not go away, it has a right to defend it's borders and its people, but where is the boundary between protecting your people and inflicting harm on others in this conflict?

Indeed I see the difficult nature of this conflict and I am not pointing fingers, as you said, problems are on both sides and the situation is far from good. In the mind of an israeli, what is the degree of harm you are willing to inflict on others in order to secure your existence, given that it is hard to specifically target those palestinians that want to inflict harm upon israel, and at the end of the day all palestinians suffer because of those fundamentalists who really are against israel.

I am just curious of the opinion of an israeli citizen. BeTodah Me-rosh, Lailah Tov

Well, at the moment, most of the attention is on gaza and sderot where the terrorists are firing rockets over and the IDF's retaliation towards gaza. This has triggered violent protest from places even as centered as Jerusalem from Palestinians and arab israelis alike, things are basically even more heated in the territories, so yes, the situation does indeed affect the Palestinians more because of the unrest.

The only things that are noticeable on the israeli side is the movement to support the families in sderot, which in some places had sit ins and moderate protesting. I had a friend come back from sderot just the other day though, and around that area, the rockets are really causing harm to infrastucture and isolating families from work, schooling etc. Even though the casualties and overall damage is less than the unrest in gaza, the use of rockets on sderot and neighboring towns still has a direct effect on the activity of citizens in these areas.

Your notion on the use of violence against terrorists, especially in populated areas is indeed a huge issue though. And as you pointed out, moderate, yet secular and objective ideologies is more established on the israeli side for the general freedom of press and education, when compared to the Palestinian side, the different schools of thought are literally at each others throat's.

Though there is a healthy amount of objective thinking ( including the peace movements ) towards the domestic/foreign policy of Israel, the IDF is very very stubborn to the outside world and almost ignores it. Even counter terrorism analysts advised that IDF should not retaliate into the heart of gaza, the IDF still gave in to their predictable policy of retaliation. Some also advised that taking an role to where you isolate activity in gaza instead of bombing it would eventually do some good, of course, this is a hard stance to take, for it could mean that sderot and neighboring towns would either have to sustain the damage or abandon their homes and move away.

Generally, there still is a large amount of prejudice towards arabs here, but it is looked down upon by people. In a sense, religious areas and places where education/outside influence is not as present, has more prejudice among people. Other than that, Israelis always work with Arabs in various industries and have rights of a general citizen. The mainstream secularist ideals strive to live in harmony with arabs in my opinion.

Wow, thats a long post by me! Anyways, if I could think of more to add will do so later, and much to my pleasure adding my thoughts here Though I live here, I'm a permanent resident, which means I can't vote. Such a status is given to foreign families who have stayed in Israel a long time but has established a living.

BaOneg Sheli

Edit: didn't see the latest post, I will reply if and/when I have time.

Written by Devolution on 04.03.2008 at 22:18

And another thing......
Anyone knows what is happening in Gaza these days? & all the bombing happening there?& how many child was killed and wounded? Anyone knows what Israel the peaceful country is doing in there? & i emphsis on how many child died in there....

i'm affected with the mean and vicious propoganda , Right?

Go watch some news...... then get back to the discussion.

While I do see your point regarding the ownership of land, this is still dissected by complications of whether or not Israel should give up land that has established towns on it. And till this point, things are progressing and land has been given much to the opposition of those who don't want to give in to demands. You can read posts above, I agree to the negotiating of giving land to a sensible level. Regarding Gaza, I have addressed my thoughts on this issue already above...

Good to see you too again!

Written by akatana on 05.03.2008 at 18:50

Written by Sunioj on 04.03.2008 at 22:32

so you mean you are not an israeli citizen? Did I understand you wrong? Anyway, thanks for the answer. From my rather ignorant position (I cannot know the situation really good because I am dependent on the media and literature to know about the conflict) I see the main problem in the way of peace as being the settlements in palestinian territories. Of course radical people will still exist even if there is peace but it would certainly not be to the extent it is today. Thanks again, Rav Todot!

That is correct, though the status of permanent residency believe it or not, is a small percentage of the populations since if you're jewish you get automatic citizenship or if you were a Israeli Arab, depending on where you were born and to whom you were born to.

For the progressing thinker, it can be safe to say that the list of priorities for taking the first steps to peace is the issue of settlements and land that have been acquired to accommodate Israeli citizens, this issue also extends greatly to religious/zionist Israelis who have gone out of their way to live in the territories and it seems to have mostly affected that breed of Israeli during the early stages of the disengagement ( the disengagement plan still persists today, though the next steps for substantial change are still in talks ).

One argument against the disengagement is that no change in tension will be seen after giving up land, such as the case that we have now ever since Gush Katif has been given ( which is in the area of sderot ) however, its impossible to say if giving up Gush Katif was a complete mistake, since Hamas is control of the attacks and is not something that can be controlled by the PA. If the PA was 100% in control of Gaza, then probably the attacks would not be occurring.

Cheers!

Written by akatana on 05.03.2008 at 20:37

I still don't understand .. are you a jew, and israeli arab or just some other nationality who just lives permanently in israel?

I guess the argument that the tension will not diminish is just a way for the religious zealots to keep settling the arab land. But this conflict really shows, in a more abstract sense, all that is wrong with the contemporary mindset of humans, nationalistic ideas are, in part, the root of conflicts, the fact that one belongs to a land , or that the land belongs to one. I find that at most amusing. Of course, a sense of pride and heritage are important, but not more important than human life. I can still retain my jewish-romanian roots if I am living in austria. And every austrian should not feel that his roots are being taken from him because I live in his country. The same, jews and arabs must realize that even if jews live on arab land and arab on jewish land , it does not affect their heritage or their culture. But I guess that is just utopia and wishful thinking.

Yes, I'm a foreign national, its complicated heh, my parents came here to study and looking for something new and just ended up staying here. I can also assume the same pride for my heritage even though I'm far from my roots as can be, since I'm japanese/italian.

Indeed, extremes of nationalism which are definitely present on both side are what gets in the way of things progressing. People just need to let go of their pride and their patriotism in order to be objective things around them and how they are pursuing their goals. Just as patriotic Palestinians can't admit to the faults and indifference of their authoritative figures and nationalist movements, we have Israelis who cannot fathom the thought of giving more funds to the PA or by possibly evicting citizens on land that has Israeli families staying on it.

While both sides have somewhat reasonable claims, its wrong to let these issues get in the way of meeting the Palestinians at a middle ground to negotiate and vice versa for the Israelis. Then we have those who attach their religious beliefs into their nationalistic ideals which makes things all the more complicated.

the thing about giving land to a reasonable level is that constructions never stopped during the 60 years,even when there was diplomatic efforts by Arafat,and now by Abbas,constructions are still on,so I wonder what would actually make a reasonable land give-back?I think Israel is doing this to create a sort of an actual stuation were it says, that we can't give land on which cities are built.What is your opinion on that?
The Arab League proposed a peace treaty that dealed with all the issues,including full recognition of the state of israel and the establishment of normal diplomatic relations with it,some 6 years ago,and they are still hanging on it.The thing that the more time passes,the more the ceiling of negotiations for the palestinians diminishes.and we don't want that,we want a just solution because I think occupation does not become acceptable with time,facts are facts and we should never isolate the current stuation from the historical roots.

It's hard for me to take a stance on this, I would oppose to Gush Ezion, or Maa'le Adumim being evicted, since settlements of these types are big in population and they have been raised out of desolate lands and not to mention Gush Ezion has even been established before 67, but I think places like in the area of hebron need to go, for they affect the relations and the lives of Palestinians living there directly.

I think the PA ( or even with the arab league, yes ) and Israel really need to sit down with each and take each settlement, case by case, because some settlements are just a couple of families and their trailers with an IDF post, where as some are long established communities, that don't affect the Palestinian population in any way. I think the 67 border treaty is only negotiable, if some settlements are to be left within the green line, I think it is a bit much to ask to give everything within those borders away with the aforementioned factors at hand, but to negotiate and as I said, take things case by case, there has to be a way to work things out.

However, the way that the disengagement plan was working, Gush Katif and various others have already been given up to the PA in Gaza. The only problem is that Hamas is in control of Gaza now, so we have to wait for them to crumble and to see this works in the future. I know, I did say before that in times of war, its common for a country to annex land, its indifferent, but that's how things are everywhere you go. Countries propose events in their own interest all the time, and whos to really stop them anyway? I know, I don't even fully agree with what I just said, indeed... complicated...

I believe this is just an on going conflict which began hundreds of years ago. Maybe not the same reasons for western nations, but the same for Muslim and Arab nations which is westerners invading and defiling their sacred lands. Anyway until a high ranking western Authority Openly apologizes the problems will just be ongoing. Its not only Western Nations though. There needs to be a better Educational system in that region. I f they were to be better educated they would see the problems in a different perspective. Not necessarily ours, but just a good rational way of looking at it rather than blaming everything on religion which plays a big part too. For example look at it like how it is These countries don't care about them they care about their natural resources therefore its not a Holy War or "Jihad' for western Nations rather more about profit and bigotry. Actions taken well if any they shouldn't be or involve any type of Military influence or force by a Foreign nation. If They aim to help for the greater goo which I doubt they could send things like educational programs, teachers, food, more trade, but not money cause this money could be used in the wrong way. As it was when the US gave money to Afghanistan back in the 80's to defeat the USSR and then it came back to bite us in the ass. Palestine or Israel? hmm, neither there needs to be a compromise cause I believe they both have equal right to be there. Iran, well I honestly don't know but I do know their intention aren't good for any one in the planet not even their own people. Only harm could come from them having a Nuclear Program. Iraq was just a bid fucking scam and Fuck up. The Bush Administration doesn't even know how to keep the lies from us anymore. Congress and The president keep blaming each other but wont admit their mistakes. Non Religious, from the western point of view its got nothing to do with religion anymore its about wealth and profit and survival. Now Muslims and Arabs well from what I know they Believe its a Holy War cause they don't know any better. ignorance. Education has been denied to these people and thus these problems arise. Lack Of Education though is a good way top control the masses though so maybe their leaders know what they are doing but may not be with the best intentions. I honestly cant see Peace in that region for a long while to come. The whole world has to change in order for that to be accomplished and the system doesn't wan to change cause its not in its best interest.

I disagree with the historicist view. If we were responsible for what our ancestors did, then I should be slaved by fellow Latin American Metalstormers because Spain enslaved them centuries ago, Ivan and K7 should attack Swedish Metalstormers for what Swedish colonialism did in the Baltic Sea in the past, wrathchild should pay loads of money to Black Winter and Deathway in order to compense for French imperialism and so on. I do not believe in Zionism because, according to the idea that "my cousins' pals were living there some millennia ago and this is why I am meant to found my own country here", other peoples who owned Palestine/Israel in the past such as Italians (Romans), Greeks, Egyptians, Palestinians/Peleset (who emigrated there from Cyprus long before Abraham was born), Brits and Arabs might claim that right as well.

Instead, the conflict has no visible ending from my point of view. Why? Because a political problem is unsolvable once it becomes a personal problem. If I am a Palestinian woman whose son and daughter were killed, while coming home from school, by an Israeli bomb which was aimed at a terrorist leader who lives next to me, you can be damn sure that I will never forgive the Jews in my life. If I am a young Israeli man who goes with his girlfriend and his friends into a disco and a Palestinian suicide bomber blows himself up inside, killing half of the audience, including my schoolfriends, and my girlfriend and I get seriously injured because of the explosion, I am likely going to applaud Israeli incursions against Palestinian territory (and all our neighbours who hate us) for the rest of my life. The Palestinian vs Jewish problem is a nationwide personal problem where I cannot find the light at the end of the tunnel.

Nevertheless, it is true that the Jewish people is unique as far as heroism is concerned. They were given a small strip of desert surrounded by furious enemies and they turned it into a first world country. You have to admit that no matter in which side you are (I tend to favour the Palestinian cause to be honest).

Salutations to all Jewish and Muslim Metalstormers.

Written by Taktsekte on 10.05.2008 at 03:29

I disagree with the historicist view. If we were responsible for what our ancestors did, then I should be slaved by fellow Latin American Metalstormers because Spain enslaved them centuries ago, Ivan and K7 should attack Swedish Metalstormers for what Swedish colonialism did in the Baltic Sea in the past, wrathchild should pay loads of money to Black Winter and Deathway in order to compense for French imperialism and so on. I do not believe in Zionism because, according to the idea that "my cousins' pals were living there some millennia ago and this is why I am meant to found my own country here", other peoples who owned Palestine/Israel in the past such as Italians (Romans), Greeks, Egyptians, Palestinians/Peleset (who emigrated there from Cyprus long before Abraham was born), Brits and Arabs might claim that right as well.

Instead, the conflict has no visible ending from my point of view. Why? Because a political problem is unsolvable once it becomes a personal problem. If I am a Palestinian woman whose son and daughter were killed, while coming home from school, by an Israeli bomb which was aimed at a terrorist leader who lives next to me, you can be damn sure that I will never forgive the Jews in my life. If I am a young Israeli man who goes with his girlfriend and his friends into a disco and a Palestinian suicide bomber blows himself up inside, killing half of the audience, including my schoolfriends, and my girlfriend and I get seriously injured because of the explosion, I am likely going to applaud Israeli incursions against Palestinian territory (and all our neighbours who hate us) for the rest of my life. The Palestinian vs Jewish problem is a nationwide personal problem where I cannot find the light at the end of the tunnel.

Nevertheless, it is true that the Jewish people is unique as far as heroism is concerned. They were given a small strip of desert surrounded by furious enemies and they turned it into a first world country. You have to admit that no matter in which side you are (I tend to favour the Palestinian cause to be honest).

Salutations to all Jewish and Muslim Metalstormers.

the historicist view of the conflict in the middle east is very different from what you are talking about, we are talking about WHY the conflict began,which,was not 'hundreds of years ago' but actually only 60 years ago, when zionist groups declared the establishment of a country on the palestinian land,which did not make sense at all,it was persecution and terrorism, and you say we just put it behind us like it never was, it's not just yo,historical circumstances can be forgot in cases of TWO countries fighting for example,or occupation that finally went away,not in this case where some ethnic group steals land from a country,yet this group becomes a country while the original locals get uprooted and with no country.Persecution does not because acceptable by time espatially if it is a short time.

none of us denies that what israel did to the land was particularly successful,but that does not give it the right to violate other people's rights,just for that.And let's not forget that iosrael was never by its own,it was created by the conspiracy of the british occupation,was and still strongly becked up financially and militarily by the US,and was given nuclear power and nukes from the french,excuse me but after all they did not accomplish anything particular by their own.

Despite all of this,we do not want israel gone,if there is any chance that we can live side by side, like we did back in history,but to accomplish that,Israelis must realize that arabs are not an inferior partner who gets pleased by anything and who is desperate to just live no matter what,death is better for some middle easterns than in living in humilation, and some arabs too,have to be more open minded towards the existance of this country in order to guarentee the best interest for both of t he palestinians and the israelis and stop all of pain and the blood shed.

- in case of Israeli/Palestinian conflict:
if third parties don't interfer in order to prevent a detente to take advantage of the conflict...i.e Iran's regime & Hezbollah...performing a peaceful solution will be more probable.
- in case of Saddam's execution:
well, it's the only execution i agree with for an obvious reason (a revange for the 8-year war with Iran ).
- in case of Iran's nuclear program:
even aliens won't be so fool to believe this regime's plans are peaceful.

Gosh. Things just grand in the middle east these holidays in'it? As many of you know, there has been 270+ deaths in Gaza these last few days. It really amazes how stupidly Israel plays into the game of the terrorists everytime by retaliating in the way that they typically do. When will the IDF learn from its mistakes? When they learn that bombing the most populated in the middle east and possibly the earth is not the answer? When will the Israeli public see this discrepancy? When will Hamas just stop?

All these questions just make me hate the human race even more. So much for the holy land...

Someone has to be able to stop this mad israel,israel feeling free to apply whatever view they have and to do whatever they want with the blessing from the west is the centre of the problem,we cannot just wait for them to realize it while hundreds of people die.All I can is to be sorry that the lives of palestinians became that cheap.
And Hamas,either you have power to act back and to really hit israel like Hezbollah or stop being fool and giving them the lame excuses to massacre your people.

Haha Im not touching this thread even with a 6 feet long branding pole, wait i just touched it. Dammit. Ill go back to my Whisky. Much more peacefull.

Black Winter; Or Hamas could just stop sending missiles?, You dont have to be very bright to understand that poking a bear with a toothpick isnt necessarily a healthy idea:-)


Both sides should just fucking behave.

Written by Nyarlatothep on 29.12.2008 at 19:39

Haha Im not touching this thread even with a 6 feet long branding pole, wait i just touched it. Dammit. Ill go back to my Whisky. Much more peacefull.

Black Winter; Or Hamas could just stop sending missiles?, You dont have to be very bright to understand that poking a bear with a toothpick isnt necessarily a healthy idea:-)

Done some hunting myself, and bringing a 22. cal on a bear hunt isnt a wise choice.

Haha, I know exactly what you mean. It's like "No... I'm not going to rant... not this time... oh shit, I'm typing.... I posted. Oh, a reply so quickly? WAIT, WHAT DID YOU SAY?!?!"

On a serious note, I do think that is obviously Hamas' fault that this is going on and its obvious that they would want the Israeli to attack, it only makes them stronger. The Israeli have been planning this for some time now and probably just used these 'recent events' to stage their attack.

No matter how sick and twisted Hamas is, they are the result of a failed PLO and they even built schools, hospitals for the people. All that, and now Israel plays right into the trap. Who do you think the people are going to trust? People in uniforms shooting at your very role models or the people who helped preserve your livelihood? It's a catch 22. No one wins.

Written by Nyarlatothep on 29.12.2008 at 19:39

Black Winter; Or Hamas could just stop sending missiles?, You dont have to be very bright to understand that poking a bear with a toothpick isnt necessarily a healthy idea:-)

no no I think you need to be genius to figure that out
what fuckin missiles?kassams? those that fall on a mountain and occasionly hit targets?it's dumb from Hamas yes but do you think they are just that dumb?Hamas preferred an open fight instead of slow death in Gaza strip by the siege and by the israeli attacks every once in a while,they need more maturity and organization but until then israel will keep taking advantage of their naivity.I am sure that Israel did never need excuses to hit palestinians,and I remember many examples,palestinians are a weak people with no one willing to take their side actively,so why would a criminal state need an excuse?Either you know facts or just be content with your beer,

I still though think that hamas should have never entred political game.

Written by Sunioj on 29.12.2008 at 20:00

No matter how sick and twisted Hamas is, they are the result of a failed PLO and they even built schools, hospitals for the people. All that, and now Israel plays right into the trap. Who do you think the people are going to trust? People in uniforms shooting at your very role models or the people who helped preserve your livelihood? It's a catch 22. No one wins.

the PLO died when Arafat got killed,Arafat knew how to keep palestinians together while many palestinians(Hamas,IJ) never trusted Mahmoud Abbas,I think the chances of peace were greater when Arafat was still alive,before israel decides that he was no more working properly.
And I don't think Hamas are playing any game,they wanted to fight but they didn't just want israel to attack them and make them heroes,those people have no clear agenda they are immature and desperate.

Some geopolitical conflicts are morally complicated. The Israel-Gaza war is not. It possesses a moral clarity not only rare but excruciating.

Israel is so scrupulous about civilian life that, risking the element of surprise, it contacts enemy noncombatants in advance to warn them of approaching danger. Hamas, which started this conflict with unrelenting rocket and mortar attacks on unarmed Israelis -- 6,464 launched from Gaza in the last three years -- deliberately places its weapons in and near the homes of its own people.

This has two purposes. First, counting on the moral scrupulousness of Israel, Hamas figures civilian proximity might help protect at least part of its arsenal. Second, knowing that Israelis have new precision weapons that may allow them to attack nonetheless, Hamas hopes that inevitable collateral damage -- or, if it is really fortunate, an errant Israeli bomb -- will kill large numbers of its own people for which, of course, the world will blame Israel.

For Hamas the only thing more prized than dead Jews are dead Palestinians. The religion of Jew-murder and self-martyrdom is ubiquitous. And deeply perverse, such as the Hamas TV children's program in which an adorable live-action Palestinian Mickey Mouse is beaten to death by an Israeli (then replaced by his more militant cousin, Nahoul the Bee, who vows to continue on Mickey's path to martyrdom).

At war today in Gaza, one combatant is committed to causing the most civilian pain and suffering on both sides. The other combatant is committed to saving as many lives as possible -- also on both sides. It's a recurring theme. Israel gave similar warnings to Southern Lebanese villagers before attacking Hezbollah in the Lebanon war of 2006. The Israelis did this knowing it would lose for them the element of surprise and cost the lives of their own soldiers.

That is the asymmetry of means between Hamas and Israel. But there is equal clarity regarding the asymmetry of ends. Israel has but a single objective in Gaza -- peace: the calm, open, normal relations it offered Gaza when it withdrew in 2005. Doing something never done by the Turkish, British, Egyptian and Jordanian rulers of Palestine, the Israelis gave the Palestinians their first sovereign territory ever in Gaza.

What ensued? This is not ancient history. Did the Palestinians begin building the state that is supposedly their great national aim? No. No roads, no industry, no courts, no civil society at all. The flourishing greenhouses that Israel left behind for the Palestinians were destroyed and abandoned. Instead, Gaza's Iranian-sponsored rulers have devoted all their resources to turning it into a terror base -- importing weapons, training terrorists, building tunnels with which to kidnap Israelis on the other side. And of course firing rockets unceasingly.

The grievance? It cannot be occupation, military control or settlers. They were all removed in September 2005. There's only one grievance and Hamas is open about it. Israel's very existence.

Nor does Hamas conceal its strategy. Provoke conflict. Wait for the inevitable civilian casualties. Bring down the world's opprobrium on Israel. Force it into an untenable cease-fire -- exactly as happened in Lebanon. Then, as in Lebanon, rearm, rebuild and mobilize for the next round. Perpetual war. Since its raison d'etre is the eradication of Israel, there are only two possible outcomes: the defeat of Hamas or the extinction of Israel.

Israel's only response is to try to do what it failed to do after the Gaza withdrawal. The unpardonable strategic error of its architect, Ariel Sharon, was not the withdrawal itself but the failure to immediately establish a deterrence regime under which no violence would be tolerated after the removal of any and all Israeli presence -- the ostensible justification for previous Palestinian attacks. Instead, Israel allowed unceasing rocket fire, implicitly acquiescing to a state of active war and indiscriminate terror.

Hamas' rejection of an extension of its often-violated six-month cease-fire (during which the rockets never stopped, just were less frequent) gave Israel a rare opportunity to establish the norm it should have insisted upon three years ago: no rockets, no mortar fire, no kidnapping, no acts of war. As the U.S. government has officially stated: a sustainable and enduring cease-fire.

If this fighting ends with anything less than that, Israel will have lost again. It can ill afford to lose any more wars.

What's wrong with you guys?! It's obvious, isn't it? Israel is the only side left with bloody red hands in this whole conflict, it was supposed to be a limited response to the murder of its soldiers, but till now, they've killed almost 500 citizens, inluding children, god! Back to times of the Crusades...And you guys, especially taka, I thought you were wiser than that, how could you say something like that? How could you point your fingers of blame at a poor miserable man who hasn't done anything except defending his country from a cruel greedy war machine? Ohh wait, maybe you're right, Palestinians don't have the right to defend their country, otherwise it would be an act of terrorism. So in the end of the day we can find only one subsequent reason for all this, and this reason is simply to conform Israel's strategic needs and ensure thus, the US domination...Just get the hell out of their country and I bet my neck they won't hit you anymore...I mean for god's sake, look at their children, are domination, glory and blood more precious than their lives? Just get out, I beg you, leave them alone.

Written by akatana on 05.01.2009 at 12:05

Written by Mindheist on 04.01.2009 at 21:41

What's wrong with you guys?! It's obvious, isn't it? Israel is the only side left with bloody red hands in this whole conflict, it was supposed to be a limited response to the murder of its soldiers, but till now, they've killed almost 500 citizens, inluding children, god! Back to times of the Crusades...And you guys, especially taka, I thought you were wiser than that, how could you say something like that? How could you point your fingers of blame at a poor miserable man who hasn't done anything except defending his country from a cruel greedy war machine? Ohh wait, maybe you're right, Palestinians don't have the right to defend their country, otherwise it would be an act of terrorism. So in the end of the day we can find only one subsequent reason for all this, and this reason is simply to conform Israel's strategic needs and ensure thus, the US domination...Just get the hell out of their country and I bet my neck they won't hit you anymore...I mean for god's sake, look at their children, are domination, glory and blood more precious than their lives? Just get out, I beg you, leave them alone.

Wait a minute .. what? When have I said that palestine doesn't have the right to defend itself. I was just attacking some of the tactics of the hamas where they put civilians in danger. I was just pointing out to the right wing fanatic that the morality of the conflict is not as clear as he thinks it is. In the israel- palestine conflict there are various complex issues at stake and various ideologies that clash head on. There are moderates and pacifists on both sides but there are also right wing lunatics on each side which want such confrontation. The right wing idiots in israel want rockets from gaza and they want an israeli to die so that they can justify 1000 dead arabs, because for them 1 israeli is worth 1000 arabs, and there are the radical islamic ideologues on the palestinian side that want civilians to die so that they can parade them in front of the western media and in the same time send children and women to bomb israeli civlians. So my point is that while there are extreme people on both sides the ones that suffer the most in such conflicts are the civlians and the moral high-ground is not clearly defined.

The whole bloody situation was a mistake from the beginning but now a solution must be found that secures peace, and the thing israel and hamas are doing in gaza now is only causing more tension. You have to understand one thing, israel will exist, there is no way that that will change, we can argue about whether it was right or not but the simple reality is that israel is there to stay. So the only thing humane to do is for both sides to reach an agreement that secures peace.

And to you I can only say, don't be naive, as bad as the israeli government is and the atrocities they commit in the west bank and gaza, the palestinian militant organisations are no angels, they have as much innocent blood on their hands as the israelis.

In the end, I have spoken to friends in israel about this, I have spoken to my palestinian colleague from university, and both want to stop this madness, but the ones who decide and have power are almost always the wrong ones, and the ones who suffer are the civilians in the occupied territories and israel. So don't be fooled, gaza is turning into a humanitarian disaster and neither israel nor hamas cares about that.

Gosh, its so refreshing to see this post. I 100% agree with you on all points as well... I wish I had more time to specifically reply to certain matters but you outlined all of them in a logical fashion as well.

In turn, I find it concerning that whenever I ask an Israel supporter about the civilian deaths, they retort saying that its because 'Hamas uses human shields'. While it is true for the most part and terrorist groups are notorious for this, I think it is a bit ignorant to assume that 100% of all deaths are human shields hence, the bombings are still justified. The IDF is know for it neglect and over-response towards targets in civilian areas, and to be honest, I don't think anyone can really say for fact that all the civilians are human shields per se unless they are actually there.

Also, I find it concerning that many pro-Palestinian supporters are also in complete support of Hamas when they have a huge role played in the conflict in terms of the current situation and 'fault'. Sure, you have the right to be angry of the deaths of many, but for gods sake, without Hamas this probably wouldn't of happened and also whether they like it or not, are still a terrorist org. Just because you find them right in fighting the incursion, doesn't make them heroes.

Cheers

This thing will never end many humans are getting killed and everyone is just blaming each other
its amazing how that the whole word cant do a thing to stop a few fool groups for destroying others' lives

Written by Bad English on 07.01.2009 at 22:24

arab states like Iran..

Iran is NOT an Arab state, FYI.

Written by AiwiAstwihad on 07.01.2009 at 22:35

Written by Bad English on 07.01.2009 at 22:24

arab states like Iran..

Iran is NOT an Arab state, FYI.

Of course Iran is not an Arab state.. I think Bad English has made another mistake with English, because today is not Arab vs Isreal, it's Islam vs Israel.. So as Iran is an Islamic government so it has to cover other Muslim countries..