What? this isn't locked yet?

Written by Doc G. on 01.04.2013 at 00:26

I think this entire thread is some type of April Fool's day prank, guys. I just haven't figured out the endgame yet.

It does kind of seem this way doesn't it.

Written by psykometal on 01.04.2013 at 00:35

Written by Doc G. on 01.04.2013 at 00:26

I think this entire thread is some type of April Fool's day prank, guys. I just haven't figured out the endgame yet.

It does kind of seem this way doesn't it.

yup!

CHRISTIAN METAL IS JUST ANOTHER TOOL OF THE OPPRESSIVE PATRIARCHY TO KEEP US PROUD, STRONG, INDEPENDANT WOMEN DOWN!!! DON'T SUBMIT TO THIS RAPE OF RIGHTS AND FREEDOM!!!

Written by Mattybu on 01.04.2013 at 01:40

CHRISTIAN METAL IS JUST ANOTHER TOOL OF THE OPPRESSIVE PATRIARCHY TO KEEP US PROUD, STRONG, INDEPENDANT WOMEN DOWN!!! DON'T SUBMIT TO THIS RAPE OF RIGHTS AND FREEDOM!!!

suddenly that totally sound like something Varg would say

Written by ANGEL REAPER on 01.04.2013 at 01:44

Written by Mattybu on 01.04.2013 at 01:40

CHRISTIAN METAL IS JUST ANOTHER TOOL OF THE OPPRESSIVE PATRIARCHY TO KEEP US PROUD, STRONG, INDEPENDANT WOMEN DOWN!!! DON'T SUBMIT TO THIS RAPE OF RIGHTS AND FREEDOM!!!

suddenly that totally sound like something Varg would say

I'll re-varg it for you:

"It's simple really. In my latest record I reveal how Christianity is in fact a backwards religion. Many years ago a race of neo-nazi aliens visited me (incidentally during the night Euronymous was killed, proving my innocence). They told me I must rise and conquer Christianity and from the ashes of the Christian churches my ancestral religion will rise. So, I took a manuscript written by Hitler, used his ingenious ideas, and in short, my theory is that white people are the best and we have to burn lots of churches and buy lots of Burzum records."

Written by Mattybu on 01.04.2013 at 01:40

CHRISTIAN METAL IS JUST ANOTHER TOOL OF THE OPPRESSIVE PATRIARCHY TO KEEP US PROUD, STRONG, INDEPENDANT WOMEN DOWN!!! DON'T SUBMIT TO THIS RAPE OF RIGHTS AND FREEDOM!!!

...Giggity.

Written by Mattybu on 01.04.2013 at 02:15

Written by ANGEL REAPER on 01.04.2013 at 01:44

Written by Mattybu on 01.04.2013 at 01:40

and buy lots of Burzum records."

Even Umskiptar ?

I think that the music itself decides whether it's metal or not, not the lyrics. I don't think anyone ever disputed whether something was metal just because it had philosophical or political instead of dark or doomy lyrics like the original metal had, so why not theological? I don't believe in Christianity, but I think it's legitimate metal.

I don't know, is muddy water still wet?

Written by Jaeryd on 01.04.2013 at 10:11

I don't know, is muddy water still wet?

Not if you dry it out.

Written by M C Vice on 01.04.2013 at 12:12

Written by Jaeryd on 01.04.2013 at 10:11

I don't know, is muddy water still wet?

Not if you dry it out.

Then it wouldn't be muddy water. It would be dirt.

Written by M C Vice on 01.04.2013 at 06:42

Even Umskiptar ?

Of course, didn't you know that when played backwards that record reveals Varg's intentions to raise Adolf Hitler from his grave to join him in purifying his lands???

Written by psykometal on 01.04.2013 at 00:27

Please do explain to all of us how Christian metal is an oxymoron just because the lyrics are about God?

Also you have neglected to comment how you feel about Jewish, Islamic and Asatruist metal which are also forms of metal with religious lyrics praising deities. Are these forms of metal also oxymoronic and an affront to metal? And if so, why exactly are they also oxymoronic?

And when you get done explaining why all of these metals are oxymoronic we're going to need you to cite the exact chapters and paragraphs in the non-existent Metal Bible which specifically states that metal with religious lyrics are an oxymoron and an affront to all things metal. Please and thank you.

It's all explained right here...

http://metalstorm.net/pub/article.php?article_id=1312

The final 30 minutes cover this topic exclusively. Once again, I would like to hear your thoughts because I think I make a pretty convincing argument. I avoid most, if not all, fallacies, I support my claims with sound reasoning, and I would be absolutely shocked if everyone who has disagreed with me on this forum thus far is not utterly convinced and unwilling to apologize for their prior faulty logic.

A great comment from our Visions From the Darkside Facebook page...

"Christian 'metal' isn't metal. It is another attempt by Christians to steal another culture, like winter solstice, Easter and every other holiday and ritual. Metal is anti establishment, what is more 'establishment' than Christianity?"

Hallelujah.

Written by Godless Visions on 02.04.2013 at 05:30

It's all explained right here...

http://metalstorm.net/pub/article.php?article_id=1312

The final 30 minutes cover this topic exclusively. Once again, I would like to hear your thoughts because I think I make a pretty convincing argument. I avoid most, if not all, fallacies, I support my claims with sound reasoning, and I would be absolutely shocked if everyone who has disagreed with me on this forum thus far is not utterly convinced and unwilling to apologize for their prior faulty logic.

Ok, so I have listened to your show (for the first time) to see what all your babble is about and all I hear is a bunch of stumbling, fumbling, babbling and stammering about a paranoid delusion that metal will be overrun by Christians and destroyed. Metal is about expression, in all it's forms, and metal will never be overrun or destroyed by Christianity. Your argument would be better suited and less ridiculous sounding if you were just arguing that "Christians should not be allowed to play metal" instead of this "Christian metal isn't really metal" nonsense; I can almost guarantee you would rally more troops (still not very many, but more than none) on that argument than your current argument.

And of course you think you make a convincing argument because it is YOUR argument, just as everybody else on the planet who argues a point believes their own argument is convincing (otherwise you wouldn't be arguing YOUR own point, duh!). I love how your radiomate there disagrees with you entirely as well, just like everybody here, so it seems you are completely alone in this ridiculousness.

It's funny y'all talked about black metal bands/kids being anti-Christian but even black metal bands/kids recognize that "Christian metal" is STILL metal. The thing that black metal bands/fans are against, isn't calling Christian metal "fake" or "not metal", they just don't believe that Christians can play black metal and they hate Christians trying to play black metal and they refuse to call Christian black metal bands as "black METAL" preferring instead to call them things like "white METAL" or "unblack METAL" but they do still consider those bands as METAL. So once again your point is again proven ridiculous and asinine.

I also think it's funny that you are against calling them "Christian metal" but you still keep calling them "Christian metal" instead of refusing to even say those words and come up with a new phrase for them. I can't even begin to take you remotely serious when you yourself keep using the term "Christian metal" and can't even find the time or care to coin a new term for Christian metal for yourself to use.

It's also funny you advertise the show as being a "heated discussion" but YOU are the only one getting heated, the other 2 guys are pretty damn calm the entire time. It's also hilarious that Steve AND your radiomate keep invalidating your argument while you just keep babbling out the same thing over and over again (fumbling over your own words the whole time, much like an angry child) because nobody is acknowledging your ridiculous notion that you yourself can't even talk straight about without grasping desperately.

I hate to add to this frivolity, but I had a few paragraphs written out detailing how you are a child that is trying to rebel and create controversy, and I decided to I delete that.

So I'll put it shortly and tersely: Grow the fuck up!

Christianity is a big target, which makes it an easy target. So if you want to create controversy and induce deep theoretical debates then find a new topic. This one is done, it is finished. Find a new controversy, maybe something that didn't come from being forced to attend church at a young age. Find something you actually believe in and not just repeat old bullshit that has gone on for years.

People say that metal is all about free speech and open talk, but how is that talk beneficial when it comes from the mind of a someone who has no more understanding than a 13-year-old and is no more open than a closed paper bag?

Hell, you are the kind of metalhead I would hate to hang out with. Some self-righteous bullshitter who thinks that there is more to metal than the music. Sex, drugs, and rock & roll and most importantly, shock value, that is what metal boils down to. What metal band out there, no matter the genre, is trying to do more than get drunk, get fucked up on drugs, or fuck some random chick?

Go listen to an awesome Christian metal guitar solo while you cry at night while complaining that your parents are taking you to church tomorrow. Whine that you lose that precious hour a week, even though you waste more than that beating off to Playboy.

Cry to daddy, 'No, I want to sleep and not go to church' Wah wah, fuck you.

Just for the record, not that there is a record, but I only go to church on the big religious holidays, I don't sing with joy or have Jesus running through my veins. I sit through church, stand up during the songs, and generally wait out the clock. I do however, realize that religion is beneficial to people, it serves a higher purpose than many things in life, and I would not take it away for anything in the world.

So if some asshole wants to sing his love for God and rock the fuck out at the same time, then I say, let him do it. It takes more maturity to praise what you love than it does to whisper what you hate.

Belief requires thought and intellect, you do not.

Written by slinx on 02.04.2013 at 09:55
So I'll put it shortly and tersely: Grow the fuck up!

Wanted to quote your entire post, but realized it was to long, so I'll just quote your main point and say: Respect dude!

And the thread starter have to be kidding. You can't mean what you actually wrote, right?

Written by Jaeryd on 01.04.2013 at 12:35

Written by M C Vice on 01.04.2013 at 12:12

Written by Jaeryd on 01.04.2013 at 10:11

I don't know, is muddy water still wet?

Not if you dry it out.

Then it wouldn't be muddy water. It would be dirt.

But it won't be wet, either.

Written by Godless Visions on 02.04.2013 at 05:36

A great comment from our Visions From the Darkside Facebook page...

"Christian 'metal' isn't metal. It is another attempt by Christians to steal another culture, like winter solstice, Easter and every other holiday and ritual. Metal is anti establishment, what is more 'establishment' than Christianity?"

Government, society, other religions...

Written by M C Vice on 02.04.2013 at 11:45

But it won't be wet, either.

I said muddy water. It's neither mud nor water if it's dried out. My analogy places water in the part of metal, and dirt/mud in the part of Christianity.

It doesn't matter how not metal you think Christian metal is--water's still wet, and metal's still metal. Sure, it may be muddied by that Christian aspect, and if you take out ALL of the metal (i.e. dried out the mud), then you'll be left with just Christianity. But if it's Christian metal, it's still metal, just like how muddy water is still wet. My point is, just because you don't want to drink it doesn't mean you can say that it's not water, and just because you don't like that style of metal doesn't mean that it's not metal. You can refuse to consume it; you can hate on it all you want, but don't tell blatant fallacies.

I'm not trying to defend Christian metal. I don't even like most of Christianity, and I haven't bothered to listen to any metal inspired by that religious philosophy. I'm just saying: just because you don't like something doesn't give you the right to be stupid about it.

Written by Jaeryd on 02.04.2013 at 12:36

Written by M C Vice on 02.04.2013 at 11:45

But it won't be wet, either.

I said muddy water. It's neither mud nor water if it's dried out. My analogy places water in the part of metal, and dirt/mud in the part of Christianity.

It doesn't matter how not metal you think Christian metal is--water's still wet, and metal's still metal. Sure, it may be muddied by that Christian aspect, and if you take out ALL of the metal (i.e. dried out the mud), then you'll be left with just Christianity. But if it's Christian metal, it's still metal, just like how muddy water is still wet. My point is, just because you don't want to drink it doesn't mean you can say that it's not water, and just because you don't like that style of metal doesn't mean that it's not metal. You can refuse to consume it; you can hate on it all you want, but don't tell blatant fallacies.

I'm not trying to defend Christian metal. I don't even like most of Christianity, and I haven't bothered to listen to any metal inspired by that religious philosophy. I'm just saying: just because you don't like something doesn't give you the right to be stupid about it.

I left out the 2nd part of this originally because it wasn't as amusing as I originally thought.

But it won't be wet, either.
So if you leave Christian metal out in the sun until the water (metal) all evaporates, it won't be wet (metal) anymore.

Like your's, my analogy said that Christian metal is only not metal if you remove the metal. If you saw my other posts here, I never defended this loony idea.

Written by M C Vice on 02.04.2013 at 13:06

I left out the 2nd part of this originally because it wasn't as amusing as I originally thought.

But it won't be wet, either.
So if you leave Christian metal out in the sun until the water (metal) all evaporates, it won't be wet (metal) anymore.

Like your's, my analogy said that Christian metal is only not metal if you remove the metal. If you saw my other posts here, I never defended this loony idea.

So why bother posting something that seemingly disagreed with me if you didn't disagree with me? I'm getting a tad bit confused.

Written by Godless Visions on 02.04.2013 at 05:36

"Christian 'metal' isn't metal. It is another attempt by Christians to steal another culture, like winter solstice, Easter and every other holiday and ritual. Metal is anti establishment, what is more 'establishment' than Christianity?"

Fallacious reasoning, as there are hundreds of non-Christians bands that defend other "establishment" ideas like all those related to Paganism, NS, Communism, Theistic Satanism or whatever-mythological/religious... Are these bands not metal because they are not anti-establishment ?

Plus this idea that Christianity wants to steal or destroy metal is the most stupid thing I ever heard. Where did you get this idea from ? Any evidence ? I'm curious about it.

I listened to most of your "arguments" on the radio program and I can only think you're either a troll or maybe just one among the thousands of ignorant metalheads that believe they have the correct definiton of what is metal, and that it should never leave those boundries (quite a contradiction when you preach "liberty and no rules for metal").

Yet it did provide a few chuckles, with glorious lines such as "Metal is against Lies !" (man, I almost died laughing with this) among many other

Written by slinx on 02.04.2013 at 09:55
Belief requires thought and intellect, you do not.

Although I like the rest of your post, I hope you're not insinuating that non-believers are bereft of thought and intellect with that statement...

Written by Godless Visions on 01.04.2013 at 00:05

Dane - any idea how to get ahold of Roger Martinez nowadays? I've been googling him for years but can't find anything about his current whereabouts beyond rumors.

I want to apologize for not responding sooner to this. This past week was Holy Week and my attentions were focused on preparing for Resurrection Sunday. Not being timely with responses feels rude to me and I always want to reply as quickly as I can.

As for Martinez, I have enough connections that I might be able track him down. Last time I heard anything about him was from an acquaintance of mine who ran into him about five or six years back. But from what I understand he has removed himself so much from any former relationships so I honestly don't know his whereabouts.

Written by Godless Visions on 02.04.2013 at 05:30

The final 30 minutes cover this topic exclusively. Once again, I would like to hear your thoughts because I think I make a pretty convincing argument. I avoid most, if not all, fallacies, I support my claims with sound reasoning, and I would be absolutely shocked if everyone who has disagreed with me on this forum thus far is not utterly convinced and unwilling to apologize for their prior faulty logic.

You claim that you make a very convincing argument and avoid fallacies. This is incorrect because your entire argument is a straw man argument.

The first major issue is that you don't define what you are debating. You make numerous claims that Christianity did certain things but you have a very shaky definition of that term. What is your definition of Christianity? It's very hard for me to find some good points in your argument when I don't know the basic semantics. The same could be said for metal. If you're going to debate this fact, give us your definition of both metal and Christianity. Even more so, what is your definition of Christian metal?

As I listened to the podcast one thing became very clear to me; you have is very weak understanding of Christian history and theology. It also was very apparent that you were not interested in hearing anyone else's opinion. Especially ones that contradict what you believe. The statements you were making about Christian metal bands really seemed to be that of an opinion of somebody who has not been within that subculture. From the sociological an anthropological standpoint, to make such claims is ridiculous. How can you know what these musicians really believe, what they're all about, why they do what they do, and who they are without actually getting to know them?

You brought up the issue of Judas Priest and the court case. You claim that Christianity tried to ruin Judas Priest and destroy them. So my first issue here is if we define Christianity as the following the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth how is an ideology in practice being held responsible? Would it not be better to say that certain people, who claim to be Christians, tried to get rid of Judas Priest? To me that makes more sense as an argument. And that is more factually honest. I am NOT going to deny that it happened. This was the same thing I saw with your failed knowledge of history when you claim that Christianity was responsible for the Crusades, the Inquisition, the slaughter of pagans, the witch trials, etc. I could go into really deep detail explaining these things to you, but this is not the time nor the place for that. But I would challenge you to go out and actually research these different topics and you'll find that they had more to do with political power and very little to do with the Beatitudes.

This is not to say that people who claim to be Christian have not done horrible things in the name of Christ. That would be idiotic and ignorant of me to claim that. But to lump everyone who follows Christ into the same boat as those who have committed horrible atrocities is very narrow minded.

No I want to make a quick little reason for why I think Christianity fits well within metal based upon your reasoning of metal be anti-establishment. I honestly don't know about your background what you have or have not studied, but if you have not actually read the Gospels for yourself I highly encourage it. Jesus was incredibly anti-establishment. In fact that was why he was executed. He spoke out against the injustices from religious institutions. He had a message of loving your neighbor as yourself. What more he went on to say to love your enemy as well. He was all about bringing down the injustices in this world. So much of what He talked about was of ways we could do that. When I look around and I see corporations exploiting third world countries, wealthy politicians abusing their power, starving people in the streets, broken families filled with abuse, and human trafficking I look and I see Jesus pointing the way to ending all that. Calling us to tear down those establishments. So if metal is supposed to be anti-establishment, then the Christian message is the most metal message out there.

You are claiming that people who disagree with you have faulty logic but after hearing your podcast I would honestly say you're the one with the faulty logic. I'm not saying that you need to become a Christian. I'm not saying you need to do anything. But what I am saying is that you're tired argument is faulty. Like I said before, you use a straw man argument the entire way through. You created your own concept of Christianity and then attacked that self created concept. It doesn't work. You do not seem to even engage the challenges that you're two co-hosts presented to you. Every time they brought up a good question to you, or challenged your statement, you became very hostile and either try to change the subject or did not present a valid reason. You say that you would be absolutely shocked if everyone who disagreed with you on this form is not a really convince an unwilling to apologize for their prior faulty logic, but it is everyone here who is saying that you are not correct. Doesn't that seem a little odd? If everyone else is in disagreement with you, doesn't that make more sense for you to reconsider your position? It just seems kinda silly to me to have other people, including the two co-hosts on your own radio show, all disagreeing with you, yet we are the ones who are the logical.

Also, I would be very interested in your thought on the article I wrote and gave you the link for.

Written by Godless Visions on 02.04.2013 at 05:30


It's all explained right here...

http://metalstorm.net/pub/article.php?article_id=1312

The final 30 minutes cover this topic exclusively. Once again, I would like to hear your thoughts because I think I make a pretty convincing argument. I avoid most, if not all, fallacies, I support my claims with sound reasoning, and I would be absolutely shocked if everyone who has disagreed with me on this forum thus far is not utterly convinced and unwilling to apologize for their prior faulty logic.

Sounds like a couple of 12-year-olds arguing over a video game.

And honestly, I hope you see the irony and/or contradiction in your posts considering none of your posts are structurally sound, and hope you yourself are convinced that your prejudiced and misguided ideals and stereotypes are in fact wrong. Everyone (and I mean pretty much everyone) on this thread knows you're wrong.
What were you hoping to achieve here, anyway? That deep down everyone's as ugly as you? You're alone.

Written by Godless Visions on 02.04.2013 at 05:36

A great comment from our Visions From the Darkside Facebook page...

"Christian 'metal' isn't metal. It is another attempt by Christians to steal another culture, like winter solstice, Easter and every other holiday and ritual. Metal is anti establishment, what is more 'establishment' than Christianity?"

Hallelujah.

Yeah, good job believing a comment on Facebook.

Honestly, did you even read it?

Written by Godless Visions on 02.04.2013 at 05:30

I would be absolutely shocked if everyone who has disagreed with me on this forum thus far is not utterly convinced and unwilling to apologize for their prior faulty logic.

April fool's is over, bro. You're beating this joke to death.

Written by Jaeryd on 02.04.2013 at 13:52

Written by M C Vice on 02.04.2013 at 13:06

So why bother posting something that seemingly disagreed with me if you didn't disagree with me? I'm getting a tad bit confused.

I would have thought something as stupid as "water isn't wet if you dry it out" would obviously be a joke (and the folowup line a continuation of it).
Must have been worse that I thought it would be, if people took it seriously...

Written by M C Vice on 03.04.2013 at 07:29

I would have thought something as stupid as "water isn't wet if you dry it out" would obviously be a joke (and the folowup line a continuation of it).
Must have been worse that I thought it would be, if people took it seriously...

Well, I don't really know you... So you could've been stupid enough to post a response like that, for all I know. There's some dumb people on the internet.