I think we al have heard about it, and if not, you should have! there's people that think on metal as something more than just music, we (cause i think in that way) think that metal is a wide world subculture, that has its own rules, rites, conceptions about the world in general... and a lot of different and important points that make it a huge brotherhood of headbangers.. I wanna read your opinions, I wanna know if Im right, and if i can tell to that stupid old woman who is in charge of my school that my culture does not allow me to have my beard cut.

Music took us to a point where we are not just a bunch of outkasts with nothing to do with their lifes; there are festivals organized by and for us, we have supported the scene, no matter where are we from, and I don't know how the hell do you guys call it... but that fucking energy that take our minds and bodies away when you listen to your favorite song with your metal-friends.

Just let us (Me) know what you think about it. \m/

Quite an interesting thread. I agree with you, Metal is more than Music, and that's something that many people don't understand, there are a lot of stereotypical ideas, such as satanism, noise, violence and so on. And not many people in society appreciate metal and gives to it the recognition it deserves, an example of that is when you ask to someone: "what kind of music do you like?" and that person answers: "Everything except metal, I just can't stand it"

And something that people don't see is that in many cases, Metal helps to be open minded, at least this is my case.

Sorry I cant vote, but id really love to (10 more days!)

Hell yes metal is a subculture, theres so much more than the music, its a lifestyle, I dont know if its just me, but sometimes Ill even go to a metal show I know I probably wont be into just to be around other metalheads and discuss music with them. And Rob Zombie on "Metal-A Headbangers Journey" put it right, "No one says 'you know, I was into Slayer....one summer'"

And two songs prove this even further
1. 'Metal Is Forever' by Primal Fear
2. 'Die For Metal' by Manowar.........or pretty much anything by Manowar.

idd, metal is a subculture! I allways realise that when at weekends I go to the metalcafé in my hometown and when I enter, there allways is a great atmosphere and everybody knows eachother. Also when somebody is in trouble almost everybody goes out to help him. it's wonderfull

I actually managed to press the wrong button -.-

I think Metal is more than just music. It's something that connects people in such a way any other music can't do, the metaleadz are like one big family. Metal is 100 % serious for me, I see it as someting so much more than music. It's like therapy, it helps me relax, makes me feel better and think clearer. It's in your blood.

Written by Doc G. on 18.04.2007 at 09:12

Sorry I cant vote, but id really love to (10 more days!)

Hell yes metal is a subculture, theres so much more than the music, its a lifestyle, I dont know if its just me, but sometimes Ill even go to a metal show I know I probably wont be into just to be around other metalheads and discuss music with them. And Rob Zombie on "Metal-A Headbangers Journey" put it right, "No one says 'you know, I was into Slayer....one summer'"

I have heard several people saying that just have been into a (metal)band just one summer...Sure, you may discard them as "posers", but if we flip the coin, you have people that have been into madonna or mikael Jackson for over 20 years. My point is that every music style has its own loyal fans and set of "tradition". Also, metal is becoming popular, whatever one like it or not. More kids then ever listen to black metal and death metal today, and many kids brag about how they found another underground grindcore band that is oh so "kvlt" and "true". Every music is becoming mainstream at some point just look at jazz, punk or hip-hip for example,that were underground acts a long time ago. What I'm trying to say is, how can anything really be a subculture if it always atracts the mainstream?

Written by Warman on 18.04.2007 at 16:56

I think Metal is more than just music. It's something that connects people in such a way any other music can't do, the metaleadz are like one big family. Metal is 100 % serious for me, I see it as someting so much more than music. It's like therapy, it helps me relax, makes me feel better and think clearer. It's in your blood.

I do believe that "hardcore hip-hoppers" would say the same thing about rappers and hip-hopers tbh.

Written by [user id=20369] on 18.04.2007 at 17:31

Written by Warman on 18.04.2007 at 16:56

I think Metal is more than just music. It's something that connects people in such a way any other music can't do, the metaleadz are like one big family. Metal is 100 % serious for me, I see it as someting so much more than music. It's like therapy, it helps me relax, makes me feel better and think clearer. It's in your blood.

I do believe that "hardcore hip-hoppers" would say the same thing about rappers and hip-hopers tbh.

Yeah, but this isn't really facts is it? This is my opinions and feelings. I would never say that hip-hoppers have such strong bonds to each other as metalheadz.

yes, it is a subculture - much like any other artistic movements.

And i agree that hip-hop is certainly it's own subculture - one that got so large and popular that it has bled over into main stream 'pop culture.' That doesn't diminish the reality of Hip Hop subculture - which will survive long after Hip Hop has faded from the radio charts.

After all, 20 years ago Metal dominated MTV... Iron Maiden and Priest were on regular rotation. Iron Maiden was so big they even had little Iron Maiden 10 second sound bytes on as bumpers to commercial breaks.

Did metal cease to exist as a music form or a subculture when that level of popularity died?

No.

Hip Hop will be the same.

Written by BitterCOld on 18.04.2007 at 21:21

yes, it is a subculture - much like any other artistic movements.

And i agree that hip-hop is certainly it's own subculture - one that got so large and popular that it has bled over into main stream 'pop culture.' That doesn't diminish the reality of Hip Hop subculture - which will survive long after Hip Hop has faded from the radio charts.

After all, 20 years ago Metal dominated MTV... Iron Maiden and Priest were on regular rotation. Iron Maiden was so big they even had little Iron Maiden 10 second sound bytes on as bumpers to commercial breaks.

Did metal cease to exist as a music form or a subculture when that level of popularity died?

No.

Hip Hop will be the same.

This actually sums up my points on the subject so I won't comment further

I'd definitely call it a subculture. We've got folklore and everything!

Written by GT on 18.04.2007 at 21:45

Written by BitterCOld on 18.04.2007 at 21:21

yes, it is a subculture - much like any other artistic movements.

And i agree that hip-hop is certainly it's own subculture - one that got so large and popular that it has bled over into main stream 'pop culture.' That doesn't diminish the reality of Hip Hop subculture - which will survive long after Hip Hop has faded from the radio charts.

After all, 20 years ago Metal dominated MTV... Iron Maiden and Priest were on regular rotation. Iron Maiden was so big they even had little Iron Maiden 10 second sound bytes on as bumpers to commercial breaks.

Did metal cease to exist as a music form or a subculture when that level of popularity died?

No.

Hip Hop will be the same.

This actually sums up my points on the subject so I won't comment further

I will have to disagree with that, because metal staied in the mainstrean for less than 10 years (thank god,) but I dont think that the same think will happen to hip-crap, because that kind of music is way too comercial, some thing that metal never was. Yeah you may be right about the Nu metal bands, but I bet that after some years they will fade away.

Metal is a subculture, I think it almost can be said that it is a religion, or a form of philosophy

Oh for crap's sake, just because you don't like hip-hop doesn't make it any less of a subculture.

Has hip-hop been in the mainstream for more than 10 years? I mean really mainstream, Top of the pops mainstream.

Written by [user id=16375] on 18.04.2007 at 22:20

Oh for crap's sake, just because you don't like hip-hop doesn't make it any less of a subculture.

Has hip-hop been in the mainstream for more than 10 years? I mean really mainstream, Top of the pops mainstream.

Jesus fucking christ you love to put words in my mouth, I never said that hip hop is not a subculture, I just said that it will take long for it to leave the mainstream since its way too comercial. And yeah hip hop is way more popular (mainstream) today than what metal ever was.

Metal to me is more than the music and is my culture, religion, and philosophy...it's more than just a "subculture"...I think nowadays metal is culture...I don't care if it isn't as obvious and people who know nothing about metal don't think it exists...just because it's not as big as hip-hop doesn't mean that it deserves to be called a subculture of something...metal is larger than life in comparison to many mainstream cultural ideologies that are in the forefront...people are getting angrier, more frustrated and more upset with what is going on in the world...do you really think that these individuals will turn to hip-hop and rap? No...they'll be persuaded to try out more radical and harder musicologies that will wind up in the overall mass appeal of metal and rock...

4look4rd is totally right though...it's going to take forever for the disease of hip-hop to be fully washed from the ignorant banality of every nation...one of these days, the brainwashed populace who listen to hip-hop will open their eyes and see it for what it really is...a scam...a government conspiracy in order to control the weak minds of a nation...

remember though, hip-hop nowadays, is like nu-metal is to "old metal heads", for "hardcore" hip-hoppers.
The hip-hoppers in my class are typical "hardcore" hip-hoppers, they take distance from "new hip-hop" as much as some metal-heads takes distanse to "nu-metal".
They hate this new "gangster rap" thinghy, and have dedicated their lives to hip-hop bands or rappers with texts about publical hatred, love, social problems and politics (sounds familiar?) and that never makes it to the TV-screen or MTV.

Hip-hop is as big a subculture as Metal.
In my opinion atleast, I think it's just silly for metalheads to say that metal is greater that way, it's like a soccer fan saying his team is better than the other team, just 'cos you play on that particular team.

Written by [user id=20369] on 18.04.2007 at 23:04

remember though, hip-hop nowadays, is like nu-metal is to "old metal heads", for "hardcore" hip-hoppers.
The hip-hoppers in my class are typical "hardcore" hip-hoppers, they take distance from "new hip-hop" as much as some metal-heads takes distanse to "nu-metal".
They hate this new "gangster rap" thinghy, and have dedicated their lives to hip-hop bands or rappers with texts about publical hatred, love, social problems and politics (sounds familiar?) and that never makes it to the TV-screen or MTV.

Hip-hop is as big a subculture as Metal.
In my opinion atleast, I think it's just silly for metalheads to say that metal is greater that way, it's like a soccer fan saying his team is better than the other team, just 'cos you play on that particular team.

You are right, I acctually believe that the hip hop scene is bigger (but not better =P ) than the Metal scene. I dont know much about hip hop, but it seens that its all about the money, there may be some underground "bands" (or groups, I dont know how do you call them =P) but still all they want is to get into the mainstream (thats what I think feel free to dissagree =) and that does not happen in metal (even in nu metal) bands just play to make music, the kind of music that the musicians like and most not even care about being played in radios or earning MTV awards (well most of them) Anyways, its pretty hard to compare both scenes, because they are totally the opposite, metalheads hate hip-hop and gangsters hate metal (exept whiggers because they like mainstream nu metal and main stream hip hop) thats how things are, and hopefully always will be

Written by 4look4rd on 18.04.2007 at 23:51

Written by [user id=20369] on 18.04.2007 at 23:04

remember though, hip-hop nowadays, is like nu-metal is to "old metal heads", for "hardcore" hip-hoppers.
The hip-hoppers in my class are typical "hardcore" hip-hoppers, they take distance from "new hip-hop" as much as some metal-heads takes distanse to "nu-metal".
They hate this new "gangster rap" thinghy, and have dedicated their lives to hip-hop bands or rappers with texts about publical hatred, love, social problems and politics (sounds familiar?) and that never makes it to the TV-screen or MTV.

Hip-hop is as big a subculture as Metal.
In my opinion atleast, I think it's just silly for metalheads to say that metal is greater that way, it's like a soccer fan saying his team is better than the other team, just 'cos you play on that particular team.

You are right, I acctually believe that the hip hop scene is bigger (but not better =P ) than the Metal scene. I dont know much about hip hop, but it seens that its all about the money, there may be some underground "bands" (or groups, I dont know how do you call them =P) but still all they want is to get into the mainstream (thats what I think feel free to dissagree =) and that does not happen in metal (even in nu metal) bands just play to make music, the kind of music that the musicians like and most not even care about being played in radios or earning MTV awards (well most of them) Anyways, its pretty hard to compare both scenes, because they are totally the opposite, metalheads hate hip-hop and gangsters hate metal (exept whiggers because they like mainstream nu metal and main stream hip hop) thats how things are, and hopefully always will be

Exactly my point, I love metal, and hate hip-hop (yes hate), but I still respect it as a genre.
when it comes to the "playing for money thing", I think that's the same in both genres tbh, many bands play for the sake of it, and others just for fame, "hoes" and money.

But no need to discuss that in here
Point is, Metal and Hip-hop subcultures still exist, even though if both genres have many mainstream bands.

Written by 4look4rd on 18.04.2007 at 22:42

Written by [user id=16375] on 18.04.2007 at 22:20

Oh for crap's sake, just because you don't like hip-hop doesn't make it any less of a subculture.

Has hip-hop been in the mainstream for more than 10 years? I mean really mainstream, Top of the pops mainstream.

Jesus fucking christ you love to put words in my mouth, I never said that hip hop is not a subculture, I just said that it will take long for it to leave the mainstream since its way too comercial. And yeah hip hop is way more popular (mainstream) today than what metal ever was.

"since it's way too commercial" - as opposed to the Glam metal power ballads that dominated the airwaves for five or six years following the Iron Maiden/Priest years? The power ballad was as absolutely commercial as music could possibly get.

Ultimately it stems down to how you analyze music.

If you view "hip-hop" as a monolithic whole, you are just as bad as those who view metal or rock as a monolithic whole.

The fact is hip-hop has had it's share of evolutions, just as popular metal/rock music has.

Judas Maiden changed to White <insert object here> power ballads changed to Stone Temple of the Dog Jam Grunge changed to Metallica changed to Static Knot Nu-Metal etc...

Someone not familiar with metal or the various sub-genres (thrash, black, power, etc) just lumps it into one blanket term: Metal.

Just those unfamiliar with Hip-Hop fail to recognize the various subgenres within that larger genre (and I'm one. )

I find it beyond amusing that so many metal heads despise hip hop so much. Sure, there are incredible differences in the music and culture, but there are also many many similarities.

Both appeal to pissed off youth who defy the status quo and seek a subculture that runs counter to the mainstream '9-to-5 adulthood' that rings true to them.

Frankly, in a nutshell, what's the difference between the rapper sporting bling and a hand gun and a black metaller sporting upside crosses and a battle axe?

Both either elicit shock/horror or mocking bemusement from the average working man.

you cant say that metal isnt a subculture just because it is getting closer to the mainstream... i does not have to be underground to be a subculture, what i try to do with this is to step out and see metal culture as something not so near to the music, buet still giving it the importance it deserves.

Hip Hop may be a subculture, but one thing is to say it, and other is the fact of hip hop as a subculture, i really think that we all have our own world by the side of the common society, not just geeks, but a world wide bangers reality (sorry for my english, i just arrived to my home and im fucking tired..)

Of course its a (sub)culture. Metal is for a very particular group of people called metalheads (although there are non-metalheads that enjoy metal). The lyrics and themes of the different bands and genres have created a whole ideology. The clothing, the concerts, the debates, and the big amount of bands are also part of this culture.

Written by BitterCOld on 19.04.2007 at 00:32

Written by 4look4rd on 18.04.2007 at 22:42

Written by [user id=16375] on 18.04.2007 at 22:20

Oh for crap's sake, just because you don't like hip-hop doesn't make it any less of a subculture.

Has hip-hop been in the mainstream for more than 10 years? I mean really mainstream, Top of the pops mainstream.

Jesus fucking christ you love to put words in my mouth, I never said that hip hop is not a subculture, I just said that it will take long for it to leave the mainstream since its way too comercial. And yeah hip hop is way more popular (mainstream) today than what metal ever was.

"since it's way too commercial" - as opposed to the Glam metal power ballads that dominated the airwaves for five or six years following the Iron Maiden/Priest years? The power ballad was as absolutely commercial as music could possibly get.

Ultimately it stems down to how you analyze music.

If you view "hip-hop" as a monolithic whole, you are just as bad as those who view metal or rock as a monolithic whole.

The fact is hip-hop has had it's share of evolutions, just as popular metal/rock music has.

Judas Maiden changed to White <insert object here> power ballads changed to Stone Temple of the Dog Jam Grunge changed to Metallica changed to Static Knot Nu-Metal etc...

Someone not familiar with metal or the various sub-genres (thrash, black, power, etc) just lumps it into one blanket term: Metal.

Just those unfamiliar with Hip-Hop fail to recognize the various subgenres within that larger genre (and I'm one. )

I find it beyond amusing that so many metal heads despise hip hop so much. Sure, there are incredible differences in the music and culture, but there are also many many similarities.

Both appeal to pissed off youth who defy the status quo and seek a subculture that runs counter to the mainstream '9-to-5 adulthood' that rings true to them.

Frankly, in a nutshell, what's the difference between the rapper sporting bling and a hand gun and a black metaller sporting upside crosses and a battle axe?

Both either elicit shock/horror or mocking bemusement from the average working man.

In a recent post I did mention glam metal, but we all know that glam metal is more to rock than to metal (I think they just called it glam metal because it sounds better than glam rock) but anyways, yeah it is REALLY commercial. Ok, I dont know much about rap/hip-hop as you do, BUT from what I see is that rappers who had one or two hit albums just stop working and gain their money just by showing up in parties or by having a brand of some kind of popular product, I see them as a black male Paris Hilton who doesnt do anything but are famous as hell. And about the lyrics and music, its always the fucking same thing not even power metal is as reppetitive as rap/hip-hop is. Same beat same voice, same lyric theme (oh yeah we had a hard life because we are black and lived in the getto,) you know why they do that? Because people buy it. Yeah you may say that the same thing happened with Glam Metal and the power ballads (oh I banged the girl and she didnt call me last night, so I found another ho') HOWEVER Glam Metal is just one kind of Metal (I not even consider it as metal, because it does not match with the few basic characteristics that metal has) but hip hop is ALL about the same themes with very feel variations, they either make a ballad about a chick, sing about how hard their life was in the getto, or how they shot somebody! Still yeah it is a subculture, very popular indeed. But I dont think it can be compared to the metal subculture.

People who listens to Metal (specially the youth) dont take it just as a form of music, we are devolted to it, your lives are compleately changed by it, it turns more into a philosophy.

you are too funny.

you, who admit to knowing about nothing about hip hop state that,

"its always the fucking same thing not even power metal is as reppetitive as rap/hip-hop is. Same beat same voice, same lyric theme (oh yeah we had a hard life because we are black and lived in the getto."

yet, you expect those outside the metal sphere to differentiate lyrically and stylistically between glam (it WAS metal at the time. I lived through it all, did you? Ask Marcel, also a thirtysomething if you want a second opinion...) and other kinds of metal.

Hypocrisy?

And in the future, please try to break up sentagraphs, they make it even tougher to discern your point.

Written by BitterCOld on 19.04.2007 at 01:51

you are too funny.

you, who admit to knowing about nothing about hip hop state that,

"its always the fucking same thing not even power metal is as reppetitive as rap/hip-hop is. Same beat same voice, same lyric theme (oh yeah we had a hard life because we are black and lived in the getto."

yet, you expect those outside the metal sphere to differentiate lyrically and stylistically between glam (it WAS metal at the time. I lived through it all, did you? Ask Marcel, also a thirtysomething if you want a second opinion...) and other kinds of metal.

Hypocrisy?

And in the future, please try to break up sentagraphs, they make it even tougher to discern your point.

I gave you my ideas and my point of view in these two topics, I tryed to express the little knowledge that I have on hip-hop, and yet it may be a
"superficial" review when I said that "its always the fucking same thing not even power metal is as reppetitive as rap/hip-hop is...." But Im sure that

many people here will agree with me, because after all we all hate hip hop :p But, I have the impression that you see the rap scene like the metal scene, which in my opnion is a mistake, sure they do have some similarities, however metalheads are way more devoted to their music than rappers are. I think

that metal musicians see music as a way of life/philosophy and a tool to express their voice, however when I look at hip hop I see it as bussiness with a few desire to be use as a tool (not old hip hop because it does share some of the main ideas of Heavy Metal), sure there might be some kind of "true"

hip hop, but for me it sound all the same (maybe because I only know the "nu hip hop")

One thing that I notice, by looking at the hip hop scene is that they dont care that much about the old songs, for them (in my point of view) the new is better than the old, which is the compleate opposite of us metalheads (whats the best album of band X? The oldest one ofcourse, how about the worst

one? the newest one! haha what a stupid comparison, but you got my point) Again I may be wrong, but thats how I see hip-hop, BUT I still think that Im right about the lyrics ^^ do they want people to feel sorry about them because their mother was a crackhead whore? or because their father got

shot when they were little? Ok yeah on the early days it might have sound like something that recreated their sad reallity, but they didnt evolve nor anything, unlike metal, which had split into many different kinds every and each one of them with its own characteristics.

Im gonna ask all the gangsters that I know of, if there is any kind of hip hop that uses another themes other than the ones that I stated above.

Also, I see glam metal as some form of "Heavy Metal's Blacksheep" thank god it was a short era, a time when metal tryed to be commercial, and luckly it did not last long, again you are right I did not live during the Glam Days, but how long did it last? 5 years? 10 years? Some where in between 5-8 years I

dont really know and I acctually dont really care because it was bad music anyways (with few exeptions) and its almost dead.

Hip hop however have been into the mainstream since what the mid 80s? And probably will be there for a long time...

Written by 4look4rd on 19.04.2007 at 04:17

Written by BitterCOld on 19.04.2007 at 01:51

you are too funny.

you, who admit to knowing about nothing about hip hop state that,

"its always the fucking same thing not even power metal is as reppetitive as rap/hip-hop is. Same beat same voice, same lyric theme (oh yeah we had a hard life because we are black and lived in the getto."

yet, you expect those outside the metal sphere to differentiate lyrically and stylistically between glam (it WAS metal at the time. I lived through it all, did you? Ask Marcel, also a thirtysomething if you want a second opinion...) and other kinds of metal.

Hypocrisy?

And in the future, please try to break up sentagraphs, they make it even tougher to discern your point.

...many people here will agree with me, because after all we all hate hip hop :p ...

And there is the crux of your weak and ill-informed remarks.

That's what it boils down to.

"I don't like it, so it cannot be as pure/good/deep as what I like."

Does it somehow threaten you to think that someone who enjoys another form of music might feel the same sense of scene and belonging that you do with metal?

Does it somehow make your enjoyment of metal somehow feel less special?

Please, you can talk pro metal all you want, but don't bother wasting time (yours, mine, and anyone else who reads this) extolling your soapbox diatribes against a genre you admittedly both hate and know nothing about.

Written by [user id=20369] on 18.04.2007 at 23:04

remember though, hip-hop nowadays, is like nu-metal is to "old metal heads", for "hardcore" hip-hoppers.
The hip-hoppers in my class are typical "hardcore" hip-hoppers, they take distance from "new hip-hop" as much as some metal-heads takes distanse to "nu-metal".
They hate this new "gangster rap" thinghy, and have dedicated their lives to hip-hop bands or rappers with texts about publical hatred, love, social problems and politics (sounds familiar?) and that never makes it to the TV-screen or MTV.

Hip-hop is as big a subculture as Metal.
In my opinion atleast, I think it's just silly for metalheads to say that metal is greater that way, it's like a soccer fan saying his team is better than the other team, just 'cos you play on that particular team.

Definitely one of the more intelligent posts on this thread. It's funny how metalheads will say that rap is all about bitches, cash and bling, yet they'll cry their eyes out when people think metal is all about death and Satan worship, because that's how it's depicted. Or even the same metalheads who complain about the fact that metal is being represented by bands like Metallica, Trivium and Slipknot yet have the nerve to say all that about rap's lyrical themes. t shows a substantial level of immaturity. I'm not a rap fan but I do know that Dela Soul, Common and Mos Def to name a few sang about social issues and non-materialistic things. I

Also, a question for 4look4rd. I see you have Pain Of Salvation as one of you favourite bands. Were you one of the people that claimed POS sold out because Daniel Gildenlow started rapping on Scarsick? Think they're going commercial to appeal to a bigger audience and sell out?

Anyhow, metal is a subculture, just like most genres of music end up creating one. People within the metal subculture that I've come across seem to share the same values, looks, concerns in life and interests (with a few differences and exceptions, of course). I mean, there are so many vehement, anti-Christian metalheads for example. So many of them like fantasy themed things and a lot of them enjoy moshing, loads of them have long hair and wear combat boots and so on. Just like hardcore fans might indulge in hardcore dancing and lead straight edge lifestyes etc. Although I can acknowledge I'm part of the metal subculture, I really wish it would wisen up. It gets rather infuriating at times.

Written by Daru Jericho on 20.04.2007 at 04:40

It's funny how metalheads will say that rap is all about bitches, cash and bling, yet they'll cry their eyes out when people think metal is all about death and Satan worship, because that's how it's depicted. Or even the same metalheads who complain about the fact that metal is being represented by bands like Metallica, Trivium and Slipknot yet have the nerve to say all that about rap's lyrical themes. t shows a substantial level of immaturity. I'm not a rap fan but I do know that Dela Soul, Common and Mos Def to name a few sang about social issues and non-materialistic things. I

Also, a question for 4look4rd. I see you have Pain Of Salvation as one of you favourite bands. Were you one of the people that claimed POS sold out because Daniel Gildenlow started rapping on Scarsick? Think they're going commercial to appeal to a bigger audience and sell out?

Anyhow, metal is a subculture, just like most genres of music end up creating one. People within the metal subculture that I've come across seem to share the same values, looks, concerns in life and interests (with a few differences and exceptions, of course). I mean, there are so many vehement, anti-Christian metalheads for example. So many of them like fantasy themed things and a lot of them enjoy moshing, loads of them have long hair and wear combat boots and so on. Just like hardcore fans might indulge in hardcore dancing and lead straight edge lifestyes etc. Although I can acknowledge I'm part of the metal subculture, I really wish it would wisen up. It gets rather infuriating at times.

Just the way I ment to put it, just ten times better written

yeah, i came off primarily reactionary in this thread as well. Nice to see folks put it better than I did.

Wow this topic really got out've hand with the Hip Hop vs Metal posts , but yeah Daru Jericho and Nixx's opinions are the correct ones.

Anyways Metal definetly has a subculture because Metalheads are simply different then other people by so many things such as music, appearence (usually), are passionate about metal, attitude, ext.