hi all Nightwish fans, i need your oppinion on one thing :

i currently have an argument with some non-metal fans, who tried to claim me, that none all of Nightwish songs can be called metal, because they are too "soft" as they said...they gave examples of Forever yours or Lappi

i disagree with them at all, because for me, even the slowest and calmest song played by symphonic-power metal band like Nightwish is a metal ballad...but they don't belive...

and what about you? how you see that maybe ridiculus but for me quite important "problem" ?

A ballad with little or no distortion is not metal. Just because a band play a style of music does not mean all of their works are going to be in that style of music. Dimmu Borgir played something resembling Black Metal in the early 90's, but does that mean songs like 'Progenies of the Great Apocalypse' or 'The Serpentine Offering' are BM? No! Nightwish may have some songs that can be classed 'metal', but calling a song with no distortion or metal drum patterns 'metal' is stretching it.

Indeed..........Not all Nightwish songs are metal, mind you they are still kind ov a Metal band obviously, but not all the songs will be Metal.

Like with Manowar, their track, "Army Of The Dead", you cannot call that metal, it is a vocal interlude [part 1......part 2 is more symphonic] .

No of course not. Just listen to "This moment is entirnety" not metal at all, more of an opera.

Hmmm well Nighwish arevmore metal how some power flower metal bands like Sonata Arctica, Stratovarius, Helloween ,HIM ...and such I respect some power metal bands but early albums but Nightwish its more metal elements there and also mix whit influencies but moust important think are good lyrics

Yup I think all of their songs are "metal," Symphonic Metal at last lol. And almost all power/symphonic metal bands have ballads.
SO now we gotta change the question!
Are ballads (not power ballads) considered metal?

well NO, ballads can't be 'Metal', why would one think otherwise

@K7: ov course Nightwish play MOSTLY metal, but the slower songs are what arouse the issue.

Written by [user id=160] on 18.06.2007 at 18:31


@K7: ov course Nightwish play MOSTLY metal, but the slower songs are what arouse the issue.

But ballads are metal songs too so IMO Mis. God and such type power metal songs are more pop songs how metalsongs

WEll not sure about thiss one, voted for not all of them but almost every heavy power ... band have few songs that are not metal at all. Anyway, 95% of their songs are metal, maybe all of them, I voted for no only because some segments or parts of the songs that are not metal

I voted yes....the thing that made me choose this option was the fact that the band itself is considered metal...they may do some songs with less distortion or using less metal characteristics but they can't help it....they can never lose the essence of the band itself and there is metal in it...so...for me for example ballads are metal...I do consider for example "Lost" by Beseech metal...same thing with "Aloisa" and "Moonlight Caress" with Macbeth...these are instrumental ballads...female solos accompanied either by acoustic guitar or piano....I do call it metal because of the band....the songs do stick to the style....and they really do...it's just the instruments and the pace they modify...all in all...the essence of the band's overall music is present and you can feel it in the music....for me metal isn't all about certain drum patterns and electric equipment....there was metal in ancient music...viking era music...I do believe that..and they didn't have the means then....

@K7: well i don't know how or why you and others would say that ballads are metal.......

but ummm songs like "Mrs. God" - Helloween, man Helloween are a very played out kind ov band, they don't play Speed Metal anymore, they're just trying to be Pop-Idols these days. I love the band to death for their first few efforts (especially the debut) but they're nothing without Kai.

Written by [user id=160] on 18.06.2007 at 22:12

they're just trying to be Pop-Idols these days. I love the band to death for their first few efforts (especially the debut) but they're nothing without Kai.

are they? are they really?
have you heard the whole new album? - "Mrs. God" is a bit of a stupid track but you can hardly call the rest "trying to be pop idols"

and they are nothing without Kai?! have you listened to "Master Of The Rings" "The Time Of The Oath" "The Dark Ride" or any of the others?
you can't expect them to be exactly like the first two "Keeper..." albums, but they are still great albums on their own

onto the subject.. I agree with the majority here
they are all metal songs as far as they all come from a predominantly metal band

Written by Baz Anderson on 18.06.2007 at 22:38

Written by [user id=160] on 18.06.2007 at 22:12

they're just trying to be Pop-Idols these days. I love the band to death for their first few efforts (especially the debut) but they're nothing without Kai.

are they? are they really?
have you heard the whole new album? - "Mrs. God" is a bit of a stupid track but you can hardly call the rest "trying to be pop idols"

and they are nothing without Kai?! have you listened to "Master Of The Rings" "The Time Of The Oath" "The Dark Ride" or any of the others?
you can't expect them to be exactly like the first two "Keeper..." albums, but they are still great albums on their own

onto the subject.. I agree with the majority here
they are all metal songs as far as they all come from a predominantly metal band

Heheh and ist a single an dI sometimes enjoy first 3 albums of band but last album i saw video one video here in MS and it was just same story like whit Blind Guardian i dunno but seems thay are gettin' old seems Valls of jericho and Keeper.... albums are classic

Written by Baz Anderson on 18.06.2007 at 22:38

onto the subject.. I agree with the majority here
they are all metal songs as far as they all come from a predominantly metal band

You're a bit wrong...as much as I have noticed the majority here thinks that these aren't metal songs if they aren't performed with the certain patterns/equipment/distortion...
I already explained my view in my post.....

The poll is just too rediculous to vote in, i mean come on you couldnt say 'Yes' to 90% of the bands out there, even Death Metal bands like Mithras have non metal songs on albums. Its the same as saying with Pink Floyd for example, is 'great gig in the sky' rock?

Nightwish has alot of ballads sure, but their song structure is still based on Symphonic Power Metal, with exception to their first album, "Angels Fall First', which is more Atmospheric Metal.

Take songs like Sacrament Of Wilderness, The Pharaoh Sails To Orions, She Is My Sin, The Kinslayer, Crownless, Dead To The World, Dark Chest Of Wonders, Planet Hell, etc.

They are METAL, of course, Tarja vocals and Tuomas's keys override alot of the heavy sound, it is still quite heavy.

I agree here....once I heard a song performed by a heavy-metal singer...it was rather good...but a friend of mine told that this song wasn't metal at all...he told that the only metal thing was the fact that the singer had long hair...and the reason why he thought the song wasn't metal was the following: guitars weren't audible enough....and of course...if there aren't any heavy guitar riffs, the song can't be metal....well....personally I think that metal is something more than just heavy guitar riffs and drum patterns....

Written by Ernis on 19.06.2007 at 01:24

You're a bit wrong...as much as I have noticed the majority here thinks that these aren't metal songs if they aren't performed with the certain patterns/equipment/distortion...
I already explained my view in my post.....

you must have misunderstood my post
I agree with the majority, like I said - and that the not metal songs are only as metal as far as they are being performed by a band that are predominantly a metal band - i.e. they normally do do metal

Of course Nightwish is metal and most of their songs are metal but not all of them.

Written by [user id=160] on 18.06.2007 at 16:36

Indeed..........Not all Nightwish songs are metal, mind you they are still kind ov a Metal band obviously, but not all the songs will be Metal.

Like with Manowar, their track, "Army Of The Dead", you cannot call that metal, it is a vocal interlude [part 1......part 2 is more symphonic] .

Perfectly agree with you . Every band have some songs that differ from thier usual style . Nightwish have many songs that are not metal at all.

alright, i see, i'm not right...

but maybe from my point of view, when for me even a ballad is a kind of metal song, so i count them as metal as well like Wishmasters, Ghost Love Scores and so...

This is ridiculous. If I take Sepultura's 'The Abyss', from their 'Schizophrenia' album, which is a 1 minute acoustic interlude, and played it to anyone, would they class it as 'Thrash Metal'? Hell no! Is Dissection's 'No Dreams Breed In Breathless Sleep' Melodic Black Metal? Of course not, as there are no fucking guitars, drums or bass. Saying metal is 'not just about distortion' is to ignore the very roots of metal; metal without distortion is just rock, and a ballad without distortion is not metal.

It's like saying, if I had a band, and we played metal, if I dropped every instrument from the sound for one song, and recorded a standard rap song, that's somehow metal, because the rest of our stuff is?

well...you almost allways give examples of doom or thrash metal bands and their ballads, which definitely aren't doom or trash...but metal has more subgenres...and i belive ballads can be always put to some of subgenre still related to metal, though it is not hard music...

Written by Ellrohir on 19.06.2007 at 14:50

well...you almost allways give examples of doom or thrash metal bands and their ballads, which definitely aren't doom or trash...but metal has more subgenres...and i belive ballads can be always put to some of subgenre still related to metal, though it is not hard music...

Metal has many sub-genres, but calling a ballad devoid of distortion and metal-style drumming 'metal' is generalising the issue. If a ballad has a heavy chorus or bridge (C.f. 'Tears of the Dragon', 'Children of the Damned', 'Fade to Black' etc.), then, yes, you could say it's metal, but to say an individual song is metal just because of the band's other songs is both ludicrous and forgetting what metal is. Nightwish have several songs which do not use distortion at all. How you can say these songs are metal escapes me - the whole point of the phrase 'metal' is that it is 'hard music'! If a band write an orchestral interlude between two out-and-out thrash metal riff-fests (hypothetical situation), it's an orchestral interlude, not a thrash metal song. Just treat the damn songs as they are; not everything you listen to has to be turned to 11 (although I still dislike Nightwish).

well...if you take as a criterion of metal Iron Maiden and Metallica then 3/4 of Nightwish songs aren't metal...

Written by Ellrohir on 19.06.2007 at 15:59

well...if you take as a criterion of metal Iron Maiden and Metallica then 3/4 of Nightwish songs aren't metal...

You miss my point entirely. The fact is, you asked 'Do all Nightwish songs deserve to be called "metal songs"?'. I'm pointing out that they have written songs devoid of any trappings of a metal song. If you played these songs (Once Upon A Troubadour, Forever Yours etc.) to a non-metalhead, and asked them what they thought its genre was, they would not say metal.

Not all Nightwish's songs are metal, because they take influences from music that existed long before metal, and these songs are closer to those genres than metal.

And ballads are not, by definition, metal songs. To think that an acoustic ballad written and performed by a metal band is 'metal' is to insult the hundreds of years of musical evolution - metal is not the be-all-and-end-all of music.

On a similar note, whoever said 'there is metal in ancient music' is similarly misguided. The correct phrase is 'there is ancient music in metal'; metal was not developed until the late 60's/early 70's. Although some Folk/Viking bands use traditional instruments, so do the trad. folk bands that have been around for hundreds of years!

EDIT: Having second thoughts, I change part of my statement. Having a song devoid of distortion/metal drumming and metal-style riffs means the song cannot be metal. Just thought about Impaled Northern Moonforest, who don't use distortion but could be described as BM, due to trem. picking/blastbeats/vocals. My argument regarding Nightwish's ballads still stands, though.

Do all nightwish songs "deserve" to be called "metal songs"??? It depends on what you mean by "deserve". It you're only looking to the band that made the song, then "YES", because Nightwish is a metal band. If you're looking at each song out of the "band context" then "NOOOO", because some Nightwish songs completely lack metal elements. That doesn't mean that they are not great songs, though.

Written by Ellrohir on 19.06.2007 at 15:59

well...if you take as a criterion of metal Iron Maiden and Metallica then 3/4 of Nightwish songs aren't metal...

Iron Maiden and Metallica have different influences to Nightwish. Think of it this way, Metal is a circle, everything inside the circle is Metal, everything beyond falls into another genre circle. Some bands are right in the middle, where their style is suited to the classification of Metal, other bands, like Nightwish, are toward the edge, featuring Metal characteristics, yet also highly of other styles. So the point is, they are still in the circle, still Metal, perhaps not as 100% as some other bands, but still there.

Ballads are ballads, they are always soft and many bands use them in all genres, it doesnt mean they are less Metal.

I excuse this question, once I played the new Nightwish samples to a friend he said one word : "POP!" .. I was about to explode really ..


I would say yeah they're metal, a part of their style to play varieties .. why to consider Angels Fall First outta here, while considering an album for Autumn Tears a metal one while it is mostly alike that [atmospherical I mean] ..


Not to repeat Dark Cornatus' reply he said it well ..

Nightwish have their ballads like every melodic metal band, But it remainds that they are a metal band... without the metal side nightwish would have nothing... because its the metal songs which seem to make the mainstream... Nemo, The Siren, ect.
They have average 2 ballads an album and 8-10 metal songs an album. So no not every song is metal but 80% are therefore they themselves are metal.

Sometimes it seems that it's a must for a melodic metal band to have one or two ballads per album.....Whenever you listen to some melodic band you will nearly always find a slow song with more or less acoustic instrumental arrangement appearing in the tracklist.....bands orientation nor style doesn't play a notable role here....Elvenking, Beseech, Macbeth....other bands as well....