For the last year or so I've been delving into really interesting alternative history theories about ancient civilizations.

If you have an open mind and are interested in uncovering the truth of our distant past, keep reading!

The two theories that interest me the most are:

1. There was an ancient civilization that was far older and far more advanced than mainstream archeologists believe.

2. Ancient myths, deities, and astrology practices are based on actual events that ancient peoples witnessed. (popularly called the Ancient Alien theory)

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Some info for the Ancient Advanced Civilization Theory:
Mainstream archeology dates the start of civilization (with architecture, monuments, cities, and a writing system) at about 3,500 BC. The advanced ancient civilization theory dates all the way back to Plato, who told of a golden age of civilization at around 10,000 BC that then suddenly collapsed. This is the Atlantis theory. An ancient, advanced civilization that possibly had sea-faring capabilities, spreading their knowledge across the world before collapsing due to a cataclysm. Another theory states that only after the cataclysm, the survivors of Atlantis went around the world to share their knowledge, causing the growth of civilizations in Mesoamerica, Egypt, India, etc.

There are a lot of clues for this, and I'll share some videos in a later post that show lots of different observations and evidence. One main observation is in Egypt, where there are seemingly two types of architecture. One with very sophisticated carvings and constructions of close-fitting (no mortar required!), megaton granite blocks. The other is less sophisticated, out of clay or limestone, which is easier to mold and cut than granite. Strangely enough, based on erosion, for example, the megalithic monuments seem older than the simpler constructions. Thus, it seems like there used to be some advanced architectural knowledge (passed down from Atlantis?) that gradually got lost over time.

The 10,000 BC timestamp seems to also match quite well with different datings of the Sphinx in Egypt, the Gobekli Tepe site in Turkey, and the period at the end of the Ice Age called the Younger Dryas, which marked both a sudden drop and rise in temperature. What was this cataclysm? There are two main theories: 1) one or many comet impacts or 2) a solar burst. Whatever the cause, it must have resulted in some global floods, as practically every ancient civilization around the world has a flood "myth":

Some info for the Ancient Alien Theory:
When you look at ancient civilizations around the world, you find commonalities such as myths about gods coming from the sky in fiery vessels, bringing advanced knowledge to people or warning them from disasters, and then leaving again. Why do mainstream historians (that live thousands of years after these tales were written) consider these legends as fairy tales instead of as eye-witness accounts of actual events, passed down orally through the generations, depicted on ancient sculptures and monuments, and written in religious texts? This theory states that the "gods" that ancient peoples saw and interacted with were real. Specifically, since they are reported to come from the sky or even specific stars in some vehicles of fire and smoke, one can clearly come to the conclusion that they were extraterrestrial visitors AKA ancient aliens.

This would explain the obsession and advanced knowledge of ancient peoples concerning astronomy and our planet. This could of course also be related to the Atlantis theory, i.e. maybe Atlanteans were aliens. But this doesn't have to be the case. Atlanteans could be humans who learned a lot from alien encounters.

The point is, why should we think we're so much smarter than the people who actually lived back then and recorded these miracles and godly events? They obviously recorded and built all of these records for a reason, because it was important to them, because it was real. When they say that gods walked the Earth, why shouldn't we believe them? Who else would know the truth but them?

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Anyways, these are the theories that fascinate me. Whether you believe in aliens or Atlantis or not, it's clear that there's a lot we don't about our ancient history, and more attention should be given to these alternative theories in order to find out the truth.

Some really informative videos on these subjects:

Geophysicist Dr. Robert Schoch explains the Ancient Advanced Civilization Theory and Solar Catalcysm Theory using compelling evidence from the Sphinx, Gobekli Tepe, Easter Island, and plasma physics:


Fun side-by-side comparisons of several similar sculptures and architecture across the globe during ancient times:


Observations on the Giza Plateau: trying to date different sites based on erosion:


The classic "Chariots of the Gods" documentary from 1970, popularizing the Ancient Aliens Theory:

very cool topic! a few years ago I randomly picked up The Science of The Dogon and started going down this (very deep) rabbithole.

it's interesting these ideas are becoming more well known lately and open to discussion, or at least sometime ago I didnt have that impression. like many other things, I guess the internet helped a lot. not much stagnant gatekeeping academics can do nowadays to control the discourse.
though the whole alternative theories vs mainstream academics debate many focus on (hancock & co.) is imo a bit overblown. dont have to dig too far into nobel prizes or nasa engineers to find "mainstream" scientists that have been sharing these ideas for decades. these theories just didnt seem to have the spotlight, but are slowly surfacing back.

I'm on board with the pre-10000 bc civilization(s) theory. looking into different aspects, from geology to culture and how spread out the evidence is, all pieces seem to fit together.
sort of the natural evolution of history and knowledge, as we advance over time. it's quite easy to picture if looking back a century ago, or a milenia before.
it's what you mention in your last point, we aint so much smarter than before (in some aspects, we went backwards), and certainly not the peak of humanity. in a hundred years, people will think we were retarded for thinking x or y was an absolute immovable truth.

about the ancient alien theory, I'm more on the fence. though maybe lots of it is semantics, as in agreeing on lots of the substance but not so much the format. like the discovery channel ancient alien hyper focussed on sitchin's theories makes me cringe, but reading sumerian tablets or other ancient texts really feel like there is something more there.
imo it started to make more sense when adding the questions of reality, conscience and the overlap between religion and science. aliens as per our modern concept appear to simply be the secular version of spirits/angels/demons/whatever you want to call them from the past. quite obvious if reading old accounts of "entity" encounters, from ancient rome to medieval germany, all are aligned with what we hear nowadays. couple that up with the eerie similar explanation of reality/conscience between ancient religious theories (such as the gnostics and yogis) with more "scientific" explanations (gateway process or simulation theory), and it all starts to become a bit clearer.

anyway, to me it all feels like a giant puzzle, one long journey to fit all the pieces together.

Hey, it's great that there's someone else on Metal Storm who likes talking about these theories

Written by Vombatus on 30.06.2024 at 00:45

it's interesting these ideas are becoming more well known lately and open to discussion, or at least sometime ago I didnt have that impression. like many other things, I guess the internet helped a lot.

It definitely helped me find out about this stuff!

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dont have to dig too far into nobel prizes or nasa engineers to find "mainstream" scientists that have been sharing these ideas for decades. these theories just didnt seem to have the spotlight, but are slowly surfacing back.

Good point. And ancient engineers and later scientists, cartographers, and explorers seemed to know something we don't (for example, those old maps showing greenery, lakes, and wildlife in the Sahara and Antarctica!).

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I'm on board with the pre-10000 bc civilization(s) theory. looking into different aspects, from geology to culture and how spread out the evidence is, all pieces seem to fit together.
sort of the natural evolution of history and knowledge, as we advance over time. it's quite easy to picture if looking back a century ago, or a milenia before.
it's what you mention in your last point, we aint so much smarter than before (in some aspects, we went backwards), and certainly not the peak of humanity. in a hundred years, people will think we were retarded for thinking x or y was an absolute immovable truth.

Yeah definitely. Our knowledge is constantly evolving. What we consider as truth now could be obsolete only a couple of decades later. From physics, I know that there's a whole lot we don't know: dark matter, dark energy, even QCD (describing physics inside a proton, for example) isn't totally understood. The same is true for archeology and geology, I imagine. There's a whole lot that remains unexplored under the earth, sea, and ice.

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about the ancient alien theory, I'm more on the fence. though maybe lots of it is semantics, as in agreeing on lots of the substance but not so much the format.

What exactly do you mean by this? Are you saying you believe these phenomena and "encounters", and believe it isn't necessarily aliens but actual deities/spirits? I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on this.

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like the discovery channel ancient alien hyper focussed on sitchin's theories makes me cringe, but reading sumerian tablets or other ancient texts really feel like there is something more there.

I don't know too much about Sitchin, but when I did a quick Wikipedia search the "Annunaki" theory seems familiar. By the way, when he theorizes about other planets that were destroyed in the solar system's past, there was actually a new finding by NASAthat could be relevant: extracting a sample from the Bennu asteroid, they found evidence that could mean that Bennu actually originated from an ocean world within the solar system. I don't know if they mean that it could come from Mars when it had oceans (but how would it get into space?). So, does that mean it came from a planet that exploded, torn apart by Jupiter or something?

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eerie similar explanation of reality/conscience between ancient religious theories (such as the gnostics and yogis) with more "scientific" explanations (gateway process or simulation theory), and it all starts to become a bit clearer.

By gateway process, do you mean remote viewing like the CIA's Stargate project or something else? Because that's also an intriguing topic, I find. Could our minds be not limited to the extent of our skulls, but actually be like EM fields that can reach further?

Nice topic.

I can vouch on the history I've fully grasp on - mediaeval Indian history. I'll take one piece of it to worth mentioning here,

Alternative theories suggest ancient India housed an advanced civilization far older than traditionally believed. The Indus Valley Civilization's sophisticated urban planning and the submerged city of DWARKA indicate advanced engineering. Vedic texts describe technologies like Vimanas (flying machines) and powerful weapons, hinting at high technological prowess. Mythological accounts of gods like Indra and Shiva may reflect encounters with extraterrestrial beings. Precise ancient astrology and astronomy suggest cosmic knowledge from an advanced source. Architectural wonders like Brihadeeswarar and Kailasa temples and practices like yoga and meditation are seen as remnants of this ancient knowledge, challenging mainstream archaeological views.

Written by Cynic Metalhead on 30.06.2024 at 12:47

Nice topic.

I can vouch on the history I've fully grasp on - mediaeval Indian history. I'll take one piece of it to worth mentioning here,

Alternative theories suggest ancient India housed an advanced civilization far older than traditionally believed. The Indus Valley Civilization's sophisticated urban planning and the submerged city of DWARKA indicate advanced engineering. Vedic texts describe technologies like Vimanas (flying machines) and powerful weapons, hinting at high technological prowess. Mythological accounts of gods like Indra and Shiva may reflect encounters with extraterrestrial beings. Precise ancient astrology and astronomy suggest cosmic knowledge from an advanced source. Architectural wonders like Brihadeeswarar and Kailasa temples and practices like yoga and meditation are seen as remnants of this ancient knowledge, challenging mainstream archaeological views.

Yeah that is fascinating! Isn't the script of the Indus Valley Civilization also still indecipherable to this day?

Written by F3ynman on 30.06.2024 at 12:55

Written by Cynic Metalhead on 30.06.2024 at 12:47

Alternative theories suggest ancient India housed an advanced civilization far older than traditionally believed. The Indus Valley Civilization's sophisticated urban planning and the submerged city of DWARKA indicate advanced engineering. Vedic texts describe technologies like Vimanas (flying machines) and powerful weapons, hinting at high technological prowess. Mythological accounts of gods like Indra and Shiva may reflect encounters with extraterrestrial beings. Precise ancient astrology and astronomy suggest cosmic knowledge from an advanced source. Architectural wonders like Brihadeeswarar and Kailasa temples and practices like yoga and meditation are seen as remnants of this ancient knowledge, challenging mainstream archaeological views.

Yeah that is fascinating! Isn't the script of the Indus Valley Civilization also still indecipherable to this day?

Yes, and despite numerous attempts by scholars over the years, no one has been able to conclusively decipher the symbols and understand their language or meaning. The lack of a bilingual inscription (like the Rosetta Stone for Egyptian hieroglyphs) and the relatively short length of most inscriptions have made it particularly challenging. However, researchers have identified and cataloged the symbols used in the script. They can recognize patterns, the frequency of certain symbols, and their arrangements, but not able to interpreted in any known language.

Written by F3ynman on 30.06.2024 at 02:02

By gateway process, do you mean remote viewing like the CIA's Stargate project or something else? Because that's also an intriguing topic, I find. Could our minds be not limited to the extent of our skulls, but actually be like EM fields that can reach further?

a different program. similar in some aspects and also part of the whole 60's-70's spiritual/conscience/reality research projects conducted by military/intelligence agencies.
the gateway process paper has been public for many years, I'd highly recommend anyone to check it out. mind bending stuff, literally, and a short read. basically enhancing your focus by changing brainwave patterns by synchronising your right and left brain hemispheres (hemisync). this taps into whole new frequencies that are not on this level of reality.
strangely, page 25 of the document was removed from public disclosure. but digging around, the missing page makes reference to the link between religious traditions and the holographic reality that the gateway process describes. the last paragraph on page 24 is very revealing. best part is you can try the process, the tapes by the monroe institute can be found on youtube (for now..).

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What exactly do you mean by this? Are you saying you believe these phenomena and "encounters", and believe it isn't necessarily aliens but actual deities/spirits? I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on this.

imo aliens and deities/spirits aren't necessarily separate, but a different way to describe the same phenomenon based on a person's worldview. older encounters are viewed as religious entities, while the more “modern” western approach (say, post-1947) have the proverbial greys.

so I sort of see two approaches to the phenomenon, one as a purely physical thing (beings from outer space that mastered some highly advanced tech, visit earth, etc...), the other as a non-physical thing (beings described in deep meditations, outer body experiences, NDE, psychoactive trips, etc.. anything related to dissociating yourself). could be the difference is indistinguishable, as in the first approach having these entities come in and out our level/frequency of reality, while the second is us tapping into a higher level /frequency of reality.

could also tie this to how ancient civilizations accessed knowledge: a) physical entities/gods/aliens that literally were here and taught humans, or, b) humans were more spiritually evolved and could achieve advanced levels of meditation/trance/drug usage to access info that is not available on this level/hologram/vibration of reality.
the latter is imo more plausible, as it is currently verifiable through altered states of conscience with meditation techniques or drugs. from the (greco-roman) ancient mystery schools in the past, to more modern scientist takes like von braun or tesla, all pretty much said this.

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I don't know too much about Sitchin, but when I did a quick Wikipedia search the "Annunaki" theory seems familiar. By the way, when he theorizes about other planets that were destroyed in the solar system's past, there was actually a new finding by NASAthat could be relevant: extracting a sample from the Bennu asteroid, they found evidence that could mean that Bennu actually originated from an ocean world within the solar system. I don't know if they mean that it could come from Mars when it had oceans (but how would it get into space?). So, does that mean it came from a planet that exploded, torn apart by Jupiter or something?

the idea behind the more mainstream take on ancient astronaut theorists is that annunaki are aliens from nibiru that came to earth to mine gold to repair the atmosphere of nibiru and created humans as a slave race to work for them (see: Blood Incantation ). Later everything got wiped out during a great flood and resets civilization. this is the sitchin take, but gets some stuff wrong, his translation being closer to interpretations than word for word translations. even some very basic stuff like translating “annunaki” as “those that descended from heaven” instead of “royal blood” because it fitted his narrative better.
now I wouldn't discard the whole annunaki mythos just because of someone's dodgy interpretations and discovery channel taking sitchin's work for granted. a lot of it makes sense. from the flood myth to the discovery of eridu and ur, and the content of the tombs. hell, even nibiru being a strange planet in our solar system seems to have at least some logical foundation. what you mention of some planet collisions in our solar system is also mentioned in the sumerian texts (enuma elish), though in a figurative way when marduk slayed tiamat (believed to be jupiter colliding and shattering another unknown planet).

Written by Vombatus on 30.06.2024 at 22:44

the gateway process paper has been public for many years, I'd highly recommend anyone to check it out.

Sounds fascinating! I'll definitely check that out... and maybe try it out

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could be the difference is indistinguishable, as in the first approach having these entities come in and out our level/frequency of reality, while the second is us tapping into a higher level /frequency of reality.

could also tie this to how ancient civilizations accessed knowledge: a) physical entities/gods/aliens that literally were here and taught humans, or, b) humans were more spiritually evolved and could achieve advanced levels of meditation/trance/drug usage to access info that is not available on this level/hologram/vibration of reality.

the latter is imo more plausible

Very interesting ideas. So our consciousness may be able to reach some 5th dimension that matter can't access, where other life forms (including aliens/spirits/gods) could communicate with you. I guess this would eliminate the need for faster than light travel or the sort to traverse the universe.

As a side note, it's funny how Lovecraft wrote about this kind of stuff too. Ancient civilizations forgotten by current people? See "Polaris" or "The Doom That Came To Sarnath". Alien monsters arriving on primal Earth and being worshipped by cults? See the Cthulhu mythos. And travelling across the universe in dreams? See "Beyond the Wall of Sleep", for example.

But, while traversing large distances with the mind could definitely be a thing, I still think alien visitations in our past is definitely possible. Here's a paper by Carl Sagan from 1962 where he estimates through very logical scientific reasoning how many times Earth could have been visited by extraterrestrial life. He comes to the astonishing conclusion that Earth could have been visited at a rate of once per every 1,000 to 10,000 years. Or, equivalently, around 10,000 times since Earth's formation! Think of that, 10,000 times in Earth's history! Now, humans haven't been around for long, relatively speaking. But, Sagan says that aliens could have set up some kind of base somewhere (maybe the Moon, or somewhere else in the solar system) where Earth's inhabitants wouldn't be able to interfere with it.

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hell, even nibiru being a strange planet in our solar system seems to have at least some logical foundation.

Whoa! Didn't know about that evidence for a 9th planet! 500 AU from the Sun? Wow!

After a bit of googling, I also found this very good recent article, saying that we're getting closer to maybe finally get a photo of it

You two both Western educated scholars from Western uni, still believe in the God shit non sense eh? Go read about Stephen Hawking, he research all and knows all case of mental disorders. God and ghost are illusion.

Written by BADDEST MEMBER on 08.07.2024 at 17:10

You two both Western educated scholars from Western uni, still believe in the God shit non sense eh? Go read about Stephen Hawking, he research all and knows all case of mental disorders. God and ghost are illusion.

Try spending four hours getting tortured by a solar deity and then coming out from the experience a totally different person, then having said entity keep checking in on you on occasion even years after messing around with psychedelics, and then we'll see about "illusions". Not saying I believe for certain in gods or extraterrestrials, but I've seen enough with my own eyes to at least be open to the possibilities. And at the very least, not to make fun of people for being open-minded. I've studied theoretical physics at university and the more I've learned about it, the less certain I've become about pretty much anything at all. "Reality" (if such a thing even exists - it's likely all in our heads) is very very different from what we perceive in our daily lives. This is a view shared by most "scholars" I know of. About Stephen Hawking, he famously said "not only does God play dice, but he sometimes throws them where they cannot be seen".

Written by F3ynman on 01.07.2024 at 01:21

But, while traversing large distances with the mind could definitely be a thing, I still think alien visitations in our past is definitely possible. Here's a paper by Carl Sagan from 1962 where he estimates through very logical scientific reasoning how many times Earth could have been visited by extraterrestrial life. He comes to the astonishing conclusion that Earth could have been visited at a rate of once per every 1,000 to 10,000 years. Or, equivalently, around 10,000 times since Earth's formation! Think of that, 10,000 times in Earth's history! Now, humans haven't been around for long, relatively speaking. But, Sagan says that aliens could have set up some kind of base somewhere (maybe the Moon, or somewhere else in the solar system) where Earth's inhabitants wouldn't be able to interfere with it.

About ancient civilisations, media is so flooded with crackpot theorists (like that Hancock guy I saw on Joe Rogan's show) that I've been unable to take it very seriously, but of course it is also hard to believe that civilisation somehow would have been "invented" only a couple of thousand years ago, considering for how long humans have been around on the planet. Just look at how hard it's been to excavate Mesopotamia (buried under sand, in totally different geography than back then, not to mention all the wars), which is only 4-5000 (?) years back in time. That's a microsecond on the large scale, if even that. Time erodes nearly everything, and what we can say we know for sure is based only on what we have found so far, so, yeah. It's not a far shot to believe there have been civilisations much more ancient than those we know about - question is, what use is a theory unless you can somehow find evidence for it? We can discuss how these cultures looked until we die, but unless we actually find some tangible proof, it's still mostly going to be based on our imagination. Still, there's worse things to spend your time thinking about, I'm sure

About aliens, I don't know. I mean, I've no doubt there exist advanced alien species dotted around the universe, considering how insanely big it is, but that's also what makes it a bit unbelievable that anybody would have been able to visit us. Unless they came from within our solar system to begin with, perhaps - it's not inconceivable that life first originated on Mars, for instance, then was somehow transferred here (not necessarily deliberately, mind you, but on celestial bodies like asteroids or such - but perhaps by design). The closest solar system to ours is nearly four light-years away. How the hell would anybody be able to travel even that distance? Wormholes? Warp drives? These are all theoretical possibilities, I'm quite aware of that, but so far we've seen nothing that implies faster than light travel to be even potentially possible in any way. I'm not saying it's entirely unbelievable, but I'd like some more concrete theory about how they'd have gotten here in any practical manner. It's an exciting theory, and it would explain a lot of things, but as much as I'd like to be able to believe it, at the moment, with my current knowledge, I simply can't see how.

The hardest course I ever took was the mathematics of general relativity (seriously, fuck tensor calculus, just, seriously, don't even... just fuck it), but many headaches later, and this is what I've learned: the speed of light isn't just a maximum velocity for matter, but for everything, including information - that is, causality itself. It is the maximum propagation speed of events, at which time and space cease to exist, and going beyond c is tantamount to beginning to travel backwards in time since at that speed, there no longer exist any shortest possible distance between two points in space (more properly called an "affinely parametrised geodesic" for more reading - these are the curves followed by objects at the speed c, the "bird's path" through space-time, so to speak) So, for me to believe in FTL travel, somehow is going to have to prove general relativity wrong first. I'm sure it'll happen sooner or later, since either GR or quantum mechanics is wrong, and I'm pretty sure it's not QM, but as of now - I'd need better theories.

Written by Netzach on 11.07.2024 at 10:19

About ancient civilisations, media is so flooded with crackpot theorists (like that Hancock guy I saw on Joe Rogan's show) that I've been unable to take it very seriously, but of course it is also hard to believe that civilisation somehow would have been "invented" only a couple of thousand years ago, considering for how long humans have been around on the planet. Just look at how hard it's been to excavate Mesopotamia (buried under sand, in totally different geography than back then, not to mention all the wars), which is only 4-5000 (?) years back in time. That's a microsecond on the large scale, if even that. Time erodes nearly everything, and what we can say we know for sure is based only on what we have found so far, so, yeah. It's not a far shot to believe there have been civilisations much more ancient than those we know about - question is, what use is a theory unless you can somehow find evidence for it? We can discuss how these cultures looked until we die, but unless we actually find some tangible proof, it's still mostly going to be based on our imagination. Still, there's worse things to spend your time thinking about, I'm sure

The big problem for large scale civilization was that you just can't shove that many hunter gatherers in one place and have them survive. That only happened through the advent of agriculture fairly recently. Which we mostly can track with skeletons, simply because it fucked everyone's caloric intake for millennia. People were eating so much less because the yield just isn't that great for farming, and it's tough work. They did it cause it's more reliable for groups, not because it's better for individuals. And you can tell by their skeletons that they ate way less. They also shrunk because of it. And if there was an ancient advanced civilization, we'd have to assume they'd have had to:
a) have a lower caloric intake bc of agriculture but also never bury their dead and get rid of their monuments and settlements somehow
b) have a higher caloric intake than pre-20th century agricultural civilizations (somehow), in order to be indistinguishable to hunter/gatherers (but at the same time leave literally no other traces behind of grand settlements)
c) have space aliens take away all the bones and structures (silly idea)

We do have large hunter structures (like Göbekli Tepe ius assumed to be), but those are biiiig outliers compared to what you can build with consolidated power and states like during Mesopotamia or the main bronze age civilizations around the eastern Mediterranean.

Overall the whole "wow all the ancient civilizations are connected here look at the pyramids" ideas are pretty silly to me cause there's just so many ways you can build tall structures. Ofc people are gonna build pyramids what else are they gonna build if they wanna build tall.

It's one of the most "what if this was true but there was no evidence for it or any reason for it to have happened" idea

Written by F3ynman on 25.06.2024 at 01:13

For the last year or so I've been delving into really interesting alternative history theories about ancient civilizations.

If you have an open mind and are interested in uncovering the truth of our distant past, keep reading!

The two theories that interest me the most are:

1. There was an ancient civilization that was far older and far more advanced than mainstream archeologists believe.

2. Ancient myths, deities, and astrology practices are based on actual events that ancient peoples witnessed. (popularly called the Ancient Alien theory)

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Some info for the Ancient Advanced Civilization Theory:
Mainstream archeology dates the start of civilization (with architecture, monuments, cities, and a writing system) at about 3,500 BC. The advanced ancient civilization theory dates all the way back to Plato, who told of a golden age of civilization at around 10,000 BC that then suddenly collapsed. This is the Atlantis theory. An ancient, advanced civilization that possibly had sea-faring capabilities, spreading their knowledge across the world before collapsing due to a cataclysm. Another theory states that only after the cataclysm, the survivors of Atlantis went around the world to share their knowledge, causing the growth of civilizations in Mesoamerica, Egypt, India, etc.

There are a lot of clues for this, and I'll share some videos in a later post that show lots of different observations and evidence. One main observation is in Egypt, where there are seemingly two types of architecture. One with very sophisticated carvings and constructions of close-fitting (no mortar required!), megaton granite blocks. The other is less sophisticated, out of clay or limestone, which is easier to mold and cut than granite. Strangely enough, based on erosion, for example, the megalithic monuments seem older than the simpler constructions. Thus, it seems like there used to be some advanced architectural knowledge (passed down from Atlantis?) that gradually got lost over time.

So Plato was from what we know as classical Greece, which came after the bronze age collapse of the Mycenaean and other empires (not the Egyptians mind you). So yeah, there's a reason they believe in grand fallen civilizations, it's literally where they (and their myths) come from. A big sea-faring civilization that had its downfall in a grand disaster is also not a theory, that literally happened to the Minoans right around the corner to Plato (which also influenced tons of their myths, ones very familiar to an Athenian such as Plato). The whole idea is just not very far-fetched or in need of another grand cyber civilization.
It's interesting that Mesoamerica is always brought up in these, cause these civilizations come WAY later and were stone age civilizations? Like, wouldn't you think that the Atlanteans would share one of the most important steps in a society, if they make it multiple millennia later across half the world? Why share "hey you can build tall easier if you have a wide base also here's some deep esoteric lore" (the most basic things) instead of "here's how to make iron btw"?

Written by F3ynman on 25.06.2024 at 01:13

This would explain the obsession and advanced knowledge of ancient peoples concerning astronomy and our planet. This could of course also be related to the Atlantis theory, i.e. maybe Atlanteans were aliens. But this doesn't have to be the case. Atlanteans could be humans who learned a lot from alien encounters.

Or, you know, because it's really really useful for agriculture to know how the year is gonna go and where we are at currently. And to depict major agricultural events via astronomy. Cause the whole society is built around that. That's why the structures are so centered around solstice and whatnot. Why would aliens care about a solstice on some random planet?

Written by F3ynman on 25.06.2024 at 01:13

The point is, why should we think we're so much smarter than the people who actually lived back then and recorded these miracles and godly events? They obviously recorded and built all of these records for a reason, because it was important to them, because it was real. When they say that gods walked the Earth, why shouldn't we believe them? Who else would know the truth but them?

Well for one, we still have those people today. That make up shit about jesus visiting them and whatnot. Or people in major cults that undergo ritual mass suicide to go onto a spaceship or whatever. It's not far fetched that people just make shit up. So we're not really much smarter. We just live in a more knowledgeable environment.
That a lot of cultures have similar ideas is not that unusual, because most of the ancient cultures we know were in major contact with each other.

Written by Desha on 16.07.2024 at 14:21

Like, wouldn't you think that the Atlanteans would share one of the most important steps in a society, if they make it multiple millennia later across half the world? Why share "hey you can build tall easier if you have a wide base also here's some deep esoteric lore" (the most basic things) instead of "here's how to make iron btw"?

This is a good point, I'll admit. A possible counter could be that not everyone of the advanced civilization had all the knowledge. If our civilization completely collapsed, setting us back to the stone age, could you explain to someone else how to build a smartphone without consulting the internet?

Written by Desha on 16.07.2024 at 14:21

Written by F3ynman on 25.06.2024 at 01:13

This would explain the obsession and advanced knowledge of ancient peoples concerning astronomy and our planet. This could of course also be related to the Atlantis theory, i.e. maybe Atlanteans were aliens. But this doesn't have to be the case. Atlanteans could be humans who learned a lot from alien encounters.

Or, you know, because it's really really useful for agriculture to know how the year is gonna go and where we are at currently. And to depict major agricultural events via astronomy. Cause the whole society is built around that. That's why the structures are so centered around solstice and whatnot. Why would aliens care about a solstice on some random planet?

If interest in astronomy is linked to agriculture, doesn't this send back the start of agriculture a couple of millennia? Aren't there astronomy-oriented structures that predate the current consensus of the start of agriculture? (Honest question)

Written by Desha on 16.07.2024 at 13:54

And if there was an ancient advanced civilization, we'd have to assume they'd have had to:
a) have a lower caloric intake bc of agriculture but also never bury their dead and get rid of their monuments and settlements somehow

Well, some would say the stuff on the Giza Plateau are the monuments you're looking for. By the way, I'd be genuinely interested to hear how those pyramids were built. Because it's not just about moving granite blocks weighing up to 80 tons from Aswan 900 km away. How do you get those blocks 50 meters into the air? After all, the ceiling of the King's Chamber (which lies about 50 m above the plateau) is made of 9 slabs of granite, weighing a total of 400 tons! Crazy stuff was going on, whoever did it

Written by Desha on 16.07.2024 at 13:54

We do have large hunter structures (like Göbekli Tepe ius assumed to be), but those are biiiig outliers compared to what you can build with consolidated power and states like during Mesopotamia or the main bronze age civilizations around the eastern Mediterranean.

Just because it's an outlier doesn't mean it should be ignored. In science, you only need one piece of counter evidence to disprove a theory. And, using surface-penetrating radar, the area around Gobekli Tepe is riddled with many more structures, making it actually not only the oldest but one of the largest archaeological sites in the world! Although it's disappointing that excavation has been practically halted for the last decade.

Written by F3ynman on 16.07.2024 at 17:29

This is a good point, I'll admit. A possible counter could be that not everyone of the advanced civilization had all the knowledge. If our civilization completely collapsed, setting us back to the stone age, could you explain to someone else how to build a smartphone without consulting the internet?

But then you can't claim the "they shared their knowledge with previous civilizations"?

Written by F3ynman on 16.07.2024 at 17:29

If interest in astronomy is linked to agriculture, doesn't this send back the start of agriculture a couple of millennia? Aren't there astronomy-oriented structures that predate the current consensus of the start of agriculture? (Honest question)

which of these? Cause we don't have many megastructures before the advent of agriculture. The only thing I can think of are some hindus valley settlements and göbekli tepe maybe. What other structures are you talking about?

Written by F3ynman on 16.07.2024 at 17:29

Well, some would say the stuff on the Giza Plateau are the monuments you're looking for. By the way, I'd be genuinely interested to hear how those pyramids were built. Because it's not just about moving granite blocks weighing up to 80 tons from Aswan 900 km away. How do you get those blocks 50 meters into the air? After all, the ceiling of the King's Chamber (which lies about 50 m above the plateau) is made of 9 slabs of granite, weighing a total of 400 tons! Crazy stuff was going on, whoever did it

But those are after the advent of agriculture? And we have records who built those pyramids? Which pre-agriculture buildings are you talking about.
As for how they were built, there's different ideas. There's the ramp idea, but also gravity measurements on some pyramids show internal ramp structures, so maybe you can't see the ramps anymore cause they built around em sometimes. And yeah crazy stuff, but also done by one of the wealthiest and socially rigid empires in the history of ever, so that helps.

Written by F3ynman on 16.07.2024 at 17:29

Just because it's an outlier doesn't mean it should be ignored. In science, you only need one piece of counter evidence to disprove a theory. And, using surface-penetrating radar, the area around Gobekli Tepe is riddled with many more structures, making it actually not only the oldest but one of the largest archaeological sites in the world! Although it's disappointing that excavation has been practically halted for the last decade.

As a scientist: this is not how science works. Sometimes just kinda weird things happen and people come together to build something cool. The hypothesis that a big culture is gonna build some big structures more often than small hunter gatherer groups occasionally banding together is still true with this? And also, just because it was built and is big, doesn't mean it's unexplainable? Plus people are unsure how old which parts are and if everything started before the advent of agriculture, that's just the assumption rn for the oldest parts of the structure itself.

EDIT somehow this got posted without me wanting to lol so the end got cut off. No clue what I was trying to say so I deleted the trailed off sentence

Written by F3ynman on 16.07.2024 at 17:29

using surface-penetrating radar, the area around Gobekli Tepe is riddled with many more structures, making it actually not only the oldest but one of the largest archaeological sites in the world! Although it's disappointing that excavation has been practically halted for the last decade.

the non-excavation is really sad. only 5% is uncovered yet the company managing the site (doğuş group) plants trees, builds roads and other structures on top of it, covering parts of the site to literally make it impossible to dig up anything around. they even made a statement of “no plans” to continue exploring the site to justify building all the crap. Karahan Tepe, another site close to Gobekli, is also in the same situation.

and those aren't even the only cases. there is an even older structure in Indonesia called Gunung Padang
where some geologists conducted ground penetrating radar tests showing it has an underground inner chamber that is up to 27000 years old. at first, the government wanted a full excavation with unlimited funding. a few years later, they did a full 180º turn and have "no priority" to search the site. nothing has been done for a decade.

people that are responsible for these sites are the problem. discovering info that goes against the “official message” is often not well received and get massive pushback. even stumbling upon these "out of place" sites must have been an unexpected setback. and these are only three that we know of. imagine how many more are lying undiscovered around the world.



PS: were you able to check the gateway paper?

Written by Vombatus on 18.07.2024 at 01:08

and those aren't even the only cases. there is an even older structure in Indonesia called Gunung Padang
where some geologists conducted ground penetrating radar tests showing it has an underground inner chamber that is up to 27000 years old. at first, the government wanted a full excavation with unlimited funding. a few years later, they did a full 180º turn and have "no priority" to search the site. nothing has been done for a decade.

So first of all you can't date anything with GPR, and also much depth estimation is kinda silly, GPR has very short range. Maybe with ERT or seismics they could've found chambers or smth (if they were still open, a cavity underground, which is also unlikely).
Second of all, it appears the site was carbon dated to 27k years ago, but the paper performing this was retracted (huge deal btw) cause the carbon dating was done on soil samples that had nothing to do with anything man-made. I don't even know how you would approach carbon dating a site to begin with, that's stones not living beings? If they had found bones in some pot maybe?

Written by Cynic Metalhead on 30.06.2024 at 12:47

Nice topic.

I can vouch on the history I've fully grasp on - mediaeval Indian history. I'll take one piece of it to worth mentioning here,

Alternative theories suggest ancient India housed an advanced civilization far older than traditionally believed. The Indus Valley Civilization's sophisticated urban planning and the submerged city of DWARKA indicate advanced engineering. Vedic texts describe technologies like Vimanas (flying machines) and powerful weapons, hinting at high technological prowess. Mythological accounts of gods like Indra and Shiva may reflect encounters with extraterrestrial beings. Precise ancient astrology and astronomy suggest cosmic knowledge from an advanced source. Architectural wonders like Brihadeeswarar and Kailasa temples and practices like yoga and meditation are seen as remnants of this ancient knowledge, challenging mainstream archaeological views.

What are your thoughts on the Barabar caves (several perfectly carved and polished granite chambers in India)?

Written by F3ynman on 22.07.2024 at 14:56

Written by Cynic Metalhead on 30.06.2024 at 12:47

What are your thoughts on the Barabar caves (several perfectly carved and polished granite chambers in India)?

To the best of my knowledge, Barabar caves doesn't have much in repository to provide for spiritual practices. Still, I'd give you my take to what attracts tourists to this place - The Barabar caves was constructed during the reign of Emperor Ashoka and his grandson Dasharatha for the Ajivika sect, they feature polished granite interiors and it contains significant inscriptions by Ashoka and his successors, providing historical and religious insights. Notable caves like Lomas Rishi and Sudama Cave have unique architectural elements and later influence sites like Ajanta and Ellora, which reflects the ingenuity and artistic capabilities of ancient Indian civilization.

I don't think much can be said considering what conscripted was only for Ajivika sect.

@Netzach: I just meant there is no God for the whole God defined as ruler or creator of the universe. If some ET or alien or general powerful god like some creature just differs to human creature, yeah ok maybe some. But God deity theist who is power over universe then I dont think so. By the way seem you are mad. Like metalstormers style, we are disagreed to agree . By the way the quote of Hawking for God throws dices actually refers to Einstien.. I dont have time to research and post it for you to see, cuz im no job but busy with chores in house. If you quote me I ll reply. Actually Einstein believes in God with relativity. Then till Hawking time He disapproves of Einstein. about the God Einstein believes.

Written by BADDEST MEMBER on 29.07.2024 at 09:49

By the way seem you are mad.

I'm not mad. Didn't mean to convey that sort of tone at all. I'm skeptical but open to suggestions.

Written by BADDEST MEMBER on 29.07.2024 at 09:49

By the way the quote of Hawking for God throws dices actually refers to Einstien.. I dont have time to research and post it for you to see, cuz im no job but busy with chores in house.

No need to look for evidence, I'm familiar with Einstein's objections to quantum mechanics, "God does not play dice," which he later had to take back and admit that the world doesn't seem to work like he expected or wanted it to. That must've sucked for him. Although, it seems general relativity and quantum mechanics are irreconcilable and one has to be wrong, and I'm pretty sure it's not QM, since it's the theory with the most accurate predictions out of all the theories we have.

Written by BADDEST MEMBER on 29.07.2024 at 09:49

Actually Einstein believes in God with relativity.

There are many physicists who have been religious, one doesn't exclude the other. I think that some day soon-ish science will be able to explain God, whatever form he might be of, or otherwise disprove his existence. At least according to some interpretation or another. We'd need to solve the problem of conciousness first. I bet any concrete results on this would upset a lot of people on both sides

Netzach bro: the key to me is Hawking is smartest guy on earth, professor of Cambridge, he stated no God. and he predicted in the end of this decade or century, we will understand the Mind of God. I think not only science able to explain God, science has already stated no God by Stephen Hawking. I understand you are philosopher Swedish scholar, Sweden university student, but truly I would believe in Hawking than you. He is more of powerful on weighting of truth and true information. I suggest you guys try to understand the MInd of God, or in your EU case the mind of Chistianity. For ex: some saint says To conquer the Jews I must become the Jews, then nowadays they say to conquer the fear you must become the fear,... I mean the rule and philosophy of such Saint is the mind of Christianity, the mind of Christian God, also of course others we need to examine like Mind of Buddah buddhism.. etc.

@Netzach: i suggest you should visit India, Thailand, vietnam, some islam country, or like Cambodia, buddhist country... you will understand why there is NO GOD. all ethnics is like: THEY LIVE IN THEIR OWN WORLD. and their GOD is their own imagination for worship. The weakness of human before nature natural since 1 bc to 2024.

I have been in england when i was 8. Been in china, been in japan, thai, and especially US. so I understand the different but same in in the way of religion how it works.

one famous guy too, Carl Jung: he stated no God, or devil all imagination.

Written by Netzach on 30.07.2024 at 08:31

Although, it seems general relativity and quantum mechanics are irreconcilable and one has to be wrong, and I'm pretty sure it's not QM, since it's the theory with the most accurate predictions out of all the theories we have.

This is kinda going off topic, but isn't QM and GR already reconciled in the sense that path integral formalism applies to both?
Also, as far as I'm aware, there's never been an observation that contradicts GR (except dark matter perhaps). For the Standard Model, yes, it is extremely successful in the electroweak sector, Higgs, and high-energy QCD, but it can't be applied to low-energy QCD or neutrinos, apparently (doesn't predict neutrino oscillations). And if we say dark matter is just extra matter (not something wrong with GR), then that's another thing the Standard Model can't predict. So, actually, it seems like GR is more successful than QM. QM might be more precise in certain predictions, but fails in many other ways. Is there an example where GR fails other than at the center of a black hole?

Written by F3ynman on 30.07.2024 at 10:59

Written by Netzach on 30.07.2024 at 08:31

Although, it seems general relativity and quantum mechanics are irreconcilable and one has to be wrong, and I'm pretty sure it's not QM, since it's the theory with the most accurate predictions out of all the theories we have.

So, actually, it seems like GR is more successful than QM. QM might be more precise in certain predictions, but fails in many other ways.

The path integral formalism does offer a mathematical link between QM and GR, but it doesn't fully reconcile them, especially in quantizing gravity, which remains non-renormalizable. GR has been successful in explaining large-scale structures and phenomena like gravitational waves and black holes, though it breaks down at singularities. The Standard Model excels in high-energy physics but struggles with low-energy QCD, neutrino oscillations, and dark matter where classical physics/Newtonian physics comes into play. Both GR and QM are successful in their domains but fail in overlapping areas. The pursuit of a unified theory, like string theory or loop quantum gravity, aims to merge their strengths and address their limitations.

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Is there an example where GR fails other than at the center of a black hole?

GR breaks down at the Big Bang, predicting a singularity with infinite density and curvature, and it fails to comprehend essential quantum effects. This underscores the need for a quantum theory of gravity.

Well, this is gonna derail the thread entirely off topic, but I wanna take the opportunity to comment on it, and this does sort of reflect on the discussion about falsifiability and simplicity in assumptions that I think is relevant to the topic.

Okay, here goes...

Written by BADDEST MEMBER on 30.07.2024 at 08:45

i suggest you should visit India, Thailand, vietnam, some islam country, or like Cambodia, buddhist country... you will understand why there is NO GOD. all ethnics is like: THEY LIVE IN THEIR OWN WORLD. and their GOD is their own imagination for worship. The weakness of human before nature natural since 1 bc to 2024.

No need to convince me of there being no god, I have no reason to believe such a thing actually exists, I just can't claim to know that it is so for certain. The aspects and archetypes depicted as gods more likely represent ancient instincts in our subconscious, inherited since the most primitive days.

Written by BADDEST MEMBER on 30.07.2024 at 08:45

one famous guy too, Carl Jung: he stated no God, or devil all imagination.

Now there's a guy we can both agree on. Not everything he ever said, but there's a lot of sense to most of it, I think. In order to accurately describe something that can be called a god you'd need to somehow explain it without basing your models in our own perception, or it'll still be more easily explained as something existing in our collective unconscious.

Written by F3ynman on 30.07.2024 at 10:59

And if we say dark matter is just extra matter (not something wrong with GR), then that's another thing the Standard Model can't predict.So, actually, it seems like GR is more successful than QM.

I get what you mean, and I don't disagree entirely, but a cynical response to this would be "QM relies only on observable and verifiable assumptions, while we have to invent something we cannot observe in order for GR to hold true, so why choose GR over QM?". I'm not sure I agree this makes GR more successful, more like based on more conjecture. The Standard Model accurately predicts the three forces other than gravity and cannot be applied to gravity, while GR accurately predicts gravity but cannot be applied to the other three. Neither is complete, but I have plenty of good reasons to believe in QM over GR as the best starting point for a combined theory - much of it can be made sense of as emergence.

I dunno if this analogy makes sense, I'm sure it's stupid in many ways but it's what I've got: If the choice is between starting with a whole car or starting with all its pieces in order to explain how it works, then starting at the bottom is the only direction in which you don't lose information when switching scales. If you have the pieces, eventually you'll figure out how they fit together, and doing so you'll learn how they work together and interact, so that in the end you'll know what every single piece does, and how every piece interacts with every other. If you have the full car, you need to break it down instead, but in doing so, for every smaller scale you get to, you lose access to the previous scale (it's destroyed so you could access its pieces) and any information available in there. Both approaches gives you full information about individual elements, but only bottom-up retains information about how they fit together into a greater whole.

Written by F3ynman on 30.07.2024 at 10:59

QM might be more precise in certain predictions, but fails in many other ways. Is there an example where GR fails other than at the center of a black hole?

Using GR to calculate the energy density of the quantum vacuum estimates wrongly by a magnitude of 10^121 compared to measurements, it's the largest error ever predicted by science. It also spits out nonsense when applied to singularities, yeah, so looks to me like something's missing there. QM on the other hand currently has no accepted explanation for gravity (and spacetime, relativity, etc.). Both theories excel in their domains but neither can explain all four forces and are irreconcilable without an umbrella theory. So GR is contradicted by some observations, unlike QM, which instead has no way of making falsifiable predictions on GR-level stuff.

There are a few promising ones combining QM with other physics in ways so the math checks out, makes some sense of how quantum effects result in spacetime, for example, the AdS/CFT correspondence models spacetime as dual to quantum interactions on the 1-lower-dimensional outer boundary of the universe, pairs up every quantum effect in QM with a mathematically equivalent dual representation as a relativistic effect in GR in one higher spatial dimension so spacetime emerges as a hologram from a lower dimension - that's the holographic principle.

For instance, a GR system of black holes in 3D spacetime is identical to a QM entangled system of particles on the 2D "surface" of the universe. This also explains the black hole information paradox, crossing the event horizon is dual to being "smeared out" across the horizon, encoded as quantum effects equivalent to the same information falling towards the singularity (reaching the singularity is dual to the info maximally entropised on the boundary so that nothing can be retrieved). I wrote a paper on this for a class and it really made me think about the limitations of our own senses and ways to make sense of our environment - according to the math, what we see in 3D around us is identical (rather than just similar - it's the exact same thing in two different languages) to a model of it as a system of quantum interactions on the 2D outer boundary - the cosmic event horizon - of the universe.

There's also a system for starting with QM and then modelling spacetime and resulting relativistic effects as a fabric woven together by entangled quantum systems, explaining the geometry of the universe as being made from the non-localised information "known" by one particle of its entangled "partner" - which ultimately leads to questions about what knowledge is, what you mean when you say a particle "knows" something - is it aware? If it is then connecting such atoms of awareness might eventually emerge into consciousness, and that allows for the possibility of the entire universe to in some sense be one cosmic sentience, which comes pretty close to describing what is usually called "god".

Written by Cynic Metalhead on 30.07.2024 at 12:09

GR breaks down at the Big Bang, predicting a singularity with infinite density and curvature, and it fails to comprehend essential quantum effects. This underscores the need for a quantum theory of gravity.

Exactly, and QM fails to comprehend relativistic effects in any way that's supportable by observations. Infinities are usually a sign that something is broken, though not always, literally every automated system ever relies on accurate placement of singularities in the control function for the residue to feed back into the next loop as intended - we wouldn't have robots or any self-regulating machinery or anything like that without division by zero as a tool. And that's as far as I've managed to comprehend it - at some point you stop asking "how? why?" and just go with it.

I think there's some point to be made about how it's always referred to as a "quantum theory of gravity" and not a "relativistic theory of quantum mechanics" - QM is generally the starting point to any successful theory, I'm not aware of any theory that starts with GR to accurately describe the quantum world, but there are many cases of the opposite. We just can't make the observations required to verify any of it, whereas GR on occasion actually gets debunked by observation.

Okay, maybe this should be continued elsewhere. If it looks like I claim to know any right answers, I absolutely don't, I'm no expert and nobody really "knows" these things. Look at that, it's already lunchtime. Sorry for hijacking the thread, there's the door, I'll show myself out. My main points here do sort of loop back to the idea of falsifiability as a standard for comparing theories, we should strive for a model relying on as few assumptions as possible, and as many as possible of these being verifiable by observations.

Written by Netzach on 30.07.2024 at 12:34

I get what you mean, and I don't disagree entirely, but a cynical response to this would be "QM relies only on observable and verifiable assumptions, while we have to invent something we cannot observe in order for GR to hold true, so why choose GR over QM?".

Ever heard of Faddeev-Popov ghosts? QFT is full of inventing stuff to eventually reach the correct observations.
Also, what is GR inventing that can't be observed? Gravitational waves, time dilation, black holes have all been observed.

Quote:

Using GR to calculate the energy density of the quantum vacuum estimates wrongly by a magnitude of 10^121 compared to measurements, it's the largest error ever predicted by science.

That's a good point. We still don't know where dark energy comes from.

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So GR is contradicted by some observations, unlike QM,

Aren't neutrino oscillations a contradiction?

Quote:

Exactly, and QM fails to comprehend relativistic effects in any way that's supportable by observations.

QFT has special relativity baked in, so I guess you mean general relativity.

Quote:

Infinities are usually a sign that something is broken, though not always,

makes me wonder if we can explain away singularities in black holes in a similar way that renormalization works in QFT (absorbing singularities in counter terms)

cool video breaking down the Baalbek site. those stone sizes are insane, and the different construction styles in the temple of jupiter is similar to other places like in Egypt (bigger and better being older).

Written by Vombatus on 10.08.2024 at 14:59

cool video breaking down the Baalbek site. those stone sizes are insane, and the different construction styles in the temple of jupiter is similar to other places like in Egypt (bigger and better being older).

Great video! That is an unbelievable site! Very clear that the Romans didn't build it. Also, makes me wonder whether the name for the Temple Of Jupiter didn't mean that it was built to worship the gods, but instead it was built by the "gods" or "giants".

I'll also share a video. Here's a long but very good presentation on the unfathomable precision of Egyptian vases that even rival modern technological methods:

That's a good summary of Ben's work, I like what he does. along the people he collabs with, they are moving forward these questions in a way that archeologist and academics can't achieve.
the knowledge of engineers, industrial manufacturers, geologists, etc... is way more useful when it comes to analysing the technicities of these items and constructions.

the fixed ratio/function shared by these vases is a mind blowing revelation. it's the kind of thing you'd expect from a serial production line on an industrial level (not to mention the precision).

this other podcast on the same subject also adds some interesting info, like how it is very unlikely to have fake counterfeits due to the high end equipment needed and cost. hence why it's rare to see them in auctions. quite telling that several thousands years ago they could manufacture these by the bucket, yet nowadays it's too costly to even try.
Or how museums and academics don't want to touch this subject, even when offered the items.
if you go to around 7:30 on the video, you'll see an incredible vase that is thinned down in the middle to let the light through. 2mm granite. insane.