Written by Balthazine on 18.04.2011 at 20:55

And from death, came melodic death, black metal (not too long after early death was created), and so on.

False. Black Metal has squat to do with Death Metal. The first band to play Black Metal is Bathory and it was directly influenced by Thrash, not Death. Death Metal didn't even exist back then. Years later, the early Norwegian BM bands took the basis created by Bathory and expanded upon it. Death Metal has nothing to do in the development of BM.

Written by RavenKing on 22.04.2011 at 05:29

Written by Balthazine on 18.04.2011 at 20:55

And from death, came melodic death, black metal (not too long after early death was created), and so on.

False. Black Metal has squat to do with Death Metal. The first band to play Black Metal is Bathory and it was directly influenced by Thrash, not Death. Death Metal didn't even exist back then. Years later, the early Norwegian BM bands took the basis created by Bathory and expanded upon it. Death Metal has nothing to do in the development of BM.

I stand corrected then.

Written by Balthazine on 22.04.2011 at 05:35

Written by RavenKing on 22.04.2011 at 05:29

Written by Balthazine on 18.04.2011 at 20:55

And from death, came melodic death, black metal (not too long after early death was created), and so on.

False. Black Metal has squat to do with Death Metal. The first band to play Black Metal is Bathory and it was directly influenced by Thrash, not Death. Death Metal didn't even exist back then. Years later, the early Norwegian BM bands took the basis created by Bathory and expanded upon it. Death Metal has nothing to do in the development of BM.

I stand corrected then.

Don't worry. It's a common mistake. People have a tendency to lump Black and Death together, most likely because both are extreme genres, while they kinda developped in a parallel way.
Both are rooted in Thrash, however. But Thrash branched in two main directions, one being Black and the other Death.

Also, keep in mind that many bands mix Black and Death nowadays.

Written by RavenKing on 22.04.2011 at 05:29

Written by Balthazine on 18.04.2011 at 20:55

And from death, came melodic death, black metal (not too long after early death was created), and so on.

False. Black Metal has squat to do with Death Metal. The first band to play Black Metal is Bathory and it was directly influenced by Thrash, not Death. Death Metal didn't even exist back then. Years later, the early Norwegian BM bands took the basis created by Bathory and expanded upon it. Death Metal has nothing to do in the development of BM.

Bathory was influenced by Sabbath, Motorhead, and Charged G.B.H. early Sabbath for Atmosphere, Motorhead for energy, and G.B.H. for speed.

so sayeth Quorthon... and the punk influence is clear enough for anyone who's heard "you don't move me ( i don't give a fuck)". and thrash had yet to register on his radar when he hit the studio for his first primitive recordings.

Written by BitterCOld on 22.04.2011 at 05:44

so sayeth Quorthon... and the punk influence is clear enough for anyone who's heard "you don't move me ( i don't give a fuck)". and thrash had yet to register on his radar when he hit the studio for his first primitive recordings.

Early Bathory sounds like blackened Thrash Metal.
As for Quorthon having been influenced by Venom or not, we'll never know the real story. I believe he heard old school Thrash before Bathory recorded their first album.

Written by RavenKing on 22.04.2011 at 05:43

Written by Balthazine on 22.04.2011 at 05:35

Written by RavenKing on 22.04.2011 at 05:29

Written by Balthazine on 18.04.2011 at 20:55

And from death, came melodic death, black metal (not too long after early death was created), and so on.

False. Black Metal has squat to do with Death Metal. The first band to play Black Metal is Bathory and it was directly influenced by Thrash, not Death. Death Metal didn't even exist back then. Years later, the early Norwegian BM bands took the basis created by Bathory and expanded upon it. Death Metal has nothing to do in the development of BM.

I stand corrected then.

Don't worry. It's a common mistake. People have a tendency to lump Black and Death together, most likely because both are extreme genres, while they kinda developped in a parallel way.
Both are rooted in Thrash, however. But Thrash branched in two main directions, one being Black and the other Death.

Also, keep in mind that many bands mix Black and Death nowadays.

This is very true.

Written by Yasmine on 18.04.2011 at 21:11

I disagree that they can be traced back to Sabbath for anything more than power chords, in theory bands today can not trace anything but that back to Sabbath, take say Stratovarius so influenced by Classical, where can they trace that back to? Certainly NOT Black Sabbath AT ALL. I would argue that Black Sabbath exhibits Very little of what we call metal, and that calling Sabbath metal would make ANYTHING WITH POWER CHORDS metal. We know that this is not remotely accurate, but since there are so many Sabbath fans here I must quit while I'm ahead. lol

Let me provide an analogy to your argument by using biological evolution. I know this wont appear relevant as it is a completely different topic, but it is exactly the same principal because evolution involves developing on an ancestors traits into something more suitable for it's changing environment.



Note how mammals share a common ancestry with sea squirts (tunicates) back down the evolutionary tree. Mammals and sea squirts are different, but share a common backbone (of sorts). This can be similar to what you are saying with power chords in metal. All it takes in numerous metal bands to develop a bands sound such as Sabbath for example, to pave an "evolutionary tree" for future metal genres to develop.

Written by RavenKing on 22.04.2011 at 05:43

Written by Balthazine on 22.04.2011 at 05:35

Written by RavenKing on 22.04.2011 at 05:29

Written by Balthazine on 18.04.2011 at 20:55

And from death, came melodic death, black metal (not too long after early death was created), and so on.

False. Black Metal has squat to do with Death Metal. The first band to play Black Metal is Bathory and it was directly influenced by Thrash, not Death. Death Metal didn't even exist back then. Years later, the early Norwegian BM bands took the basis created by Bathory and expanded upon it. Death Metal has nothing to do in the development of BM.

I stand corrected then.

Don't worry. It's a common mistake. People have a tendency to lump Black and Death together, most likely because both are extreme genres, while they kinda developped in a parallel way.
Both are rooted in Thrash, however. But Thrash branched in two main directions, one being Black and the other Death.

Also, keep in mind that many bands mix Black and Death nowadays.

There was, however, a period where the embryonic stages of both were heavily intertwined and often blended together, an the terms death metal nad black metal were used to describe bands in a manner that today would be seen as wrong. Back in those days though, the borders were often more fluid. Necrovore, for example, was described as both a black and death metal band at the time, as was Mayhem (one of the famous live posters from the early days, for instance, refers to them as the death metal kings from Norway).

Written by ForeverDarkWoods on 07.05.2011 at 01:08

Written by RavenKing on 22.04.2011 at 05:43

Written by Balthazine on 22.04.2011 at 05:35

Written by RavenKing on 22.04.2011 at 05:29

Written by Balthazine on 18.04.2011 at 20:55

And from death, came melodic death, black metal (not too long after early death was created), and so on.

False. Black Metal has squat to do with Death Metal. The first band to play Black Metal is Bathory and it was directly influenced by Thrash, not Death. Death Metal didn't even exist back then. Years later, the early Norwegian BM bands took the basis created by Bathory and expanded upon it. Death Metal has nothing to do in the development of BM.

I stand corrected then.

Don't worry. It's a common mistake. People have a tendency to lump Black and Death together, most likely because both are extreme genres, while they kinda developped in a parallel way.
Both are rooted in Thrash, however. But Thrash branched in two main directions, one being Black and the other Death.

Also, keep in mind that many bands mix Black and Death nowadays.

There was, however, a period where the embryonic stages of both were heavily intertwined and often blended together, an the terms death metal nad black metal were used to describe bands in a manner that today would be seen as wrong. Back in those days though, the borders were often more fluid. Necrovore, for example, was described as both a black and death metal band at the time, as was Mayhem (one of the famous live posters from the early days, for instance, refers to them as the death metal kings from Norway).

yes but those two terms was often mixed by mass media,people that didnt really give shit is it death or black...or they have by mistake mixed these two terms.....

Nope, Angel Reaper at the time those two were used by people who were totally into the undergound. And of course the second wave of black metal also started cause they thought death metal had become live metal with the way they dressed (sneakers and such) and the sound being too slick. The second wave bands said they played the true death metal.

Well i do saw a lot of tv clips from that days that described Bathory,Immortal,Mayhem... as Death Metal...........

Written by ANGEL REAPER on 07.05.2011 at 02:58

Well i do saw a lot of tv clips from that days that described Bathory,Immortal,Mayhem... as Death Metal...........

Immortal and Mayhem demos WERE death metal as was Marduk and Darkthrone. And old Bathory was just Venom rip off crap.
Like I was saying the 2nd wave did evolve out of death metal. They even considered themselves death metal. They all wanted to emulate early death, possessed, morbid angel.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't black metal develop from Bathory more than any other band? As in, not from death metal?

Not that I was there, but musically black metal evolved from thrash. Maybe the culture or scenes between black and death were very similar, but to my knowledge expanding on Venom and Bathory was what created the black metal movement.

@ Marcel yes i am completely aware that their early stuff were death metal .....I was just talking about the genres definitions were often mixed it that days even by artist themselves ....Shit even Quorthon described Bathory 1989 like Death and Trash metal.....not black......
As far as the Norwegians in 1990's they have labeled themselves as black.....
http://www.anus.com/metal/about/history/

Heres my take on metal.

Blues to Rock - classic rock to metal initially.

Thrash (first extreme metal)
Thrash has 3 main influences: Rock(metallica), Punk(anthrax), Death metal(slayer)

classic death metal is essentially extreme thrash

from there are worlds of influences that complete the whole spectrum of the genre of metal.

I pretty sure, according to Sam Dunn, metal came from blues and classical music.

The term rock is a extremly wide ranged genre and means guitar dominated music since the British Invasion. Even Bo Diddley and Chuck Berry are called rock by some.

For me its this way: Electric Blues - Classic Rock (1965 - 1975) - Classic Metal (1968- 1978) - Punk (1976) - Motörhead and NWOBM (1979) - Trash Metal (1983) - Death/Black Metal

Yardbirds, Kinks, Who, Cream, Hendrix, Zeppelin and other Blues/Hardrock from Mid 60s to Early 70s are the basis of metal, but it started in the aftermath of Punk that metal was an own genre, with the New Wave Of British Metal and Overkill (Motörhead) in 1979.

Classic Rock/Metal + Punk = Extreme Metal

Proto Extreme Metal
Black Sabbath - Symptom of the Universe (1965)
Judas Priest - The Ripper, Dissident Aggressor, Exiter (1976 - 78)

Black Sabbath and the original Judas Priest (with al Atkins) were blues bands. Motorhead were the first to bring the rock and punk elements into metal. Then came the NWOBHM.

I think the tree family of metal starts with Elvis Presley then came the rock then the hard rock then heavy & thrash came parallel then from this 2 genre came all the others

Black Sabbath was influenced by both rock, blues, jazz and classical, so metal comes from all these genres.

I hate to point out the obvious, but you're arguing about metaphors. Evolution is a biological model of life forms with a physical connections to the chain of evolution: they are born and give birth. Music doesn't work this way. Metal didn't "evolve" from rock in any real, concrete way. Black Sabbath aren't the "fathers" of doom; Ozzy Osbourne is the father of his two children. A piece of music has no direct causal connection to another piece, though it may carry some influence through a complex chain of people hearing and making music.

Sure, it can still make sense to discuss different models and compare your ways of understanding metal's evolution. But there's no point in arguing back and forth about what really evolved from what, because it's all metaphorical. The kind of information RavenKing and Marcel are discussing is very interesting, and I'm sure there's even more to it. But ultimately, you'll be discussing the statements, intentions and personal influences of individual musicians, some long dead, and it's very difficult to get to the bottom of those. Two bands playing in the same movement might claim to have completely different influences and inspiration, for example. How will you decide which is the "correct" course of metal's evolution?

Written by IronAngel on 07.01.2012 at 13:27

How will you decide which is the "correct" course of metal's evolution?

They won't. They'll just discuss.

There was this site called map of metal which had all genres and stuff connected, i don't know if it was right but it was kinda cool but it seems to have problems now or it's just gone. I hope not, i liked the chart-thing they did with this world map and every metal genre had it's own land so to speak.

I believe heavy metal came from early blues and rock n roll.

Traditional metal grew out of a mix of hard rock, blues rock, psychedelic rock and a little bit of prog rock.
So yes, metal came from rock. Saying otherwise is just plain stupid.

Is this a trick question?

Metal just spontaneously existed. Of course it doesn't take any influence whatsoever from any other forms of heavy music.