Written by +{Jonas}+ on 28.01.2008 at 21:43

Candiria. Math metal, heh. Probably is referring to a very technical metal... but it sounds like "nerd metal"

ion dissonance's latest CD is math metal. it's all technical, with a ton time signature changes. it's pretty decent, too. at least, it's better than what they used to play (grindcore).

Folk metal is very easy to define. It is metal with intentional/clear traditional music influences. Tradtitional, folk, ethnic, however you want to call it.

Now, surprise surprise! The mood may actually vary from dark and bombastic to light and happy if traditional music and folklore are utilized in different ways. Vikings had their own folklore and are now a part of the Scandinavian folklore, so any musical characteristics of viking metal are inevitably folk metal. If lyrical theme is enough to define viking metal, then why are not Manowar of Therion viking metal? (A few songs of them, mind you.)


On a different note, I don't understand how epic folk is an oxymoron. I might be mistaken, but an epic is a narrative poem. In fact, pieces of folklore such as Kalevala, Ilia & Odyssey, Aeneid, Beowulf, the Song of Roland and the Song of Niebelung are all known as epics. Some of then national epics, even. I don't know what your definition of epic metal is, but folk songs
that narrate the ledends and myths of the people are pretty epic to me.

I do not deny the existance of a substyle within folk metal that is often called viking metal. I'm simply stating it's a stupid name, and it's pointless to elevate it on the same level with other genres. Besides, even if there was an indepenent genre such as that, the name would be ridicilous. As far as I know, vikings played folk music just like other people, they didn't have their own mighty viking orchestra. If you deny the effect of lyrical theme and image in defining viking metal, what do you have left? An inappropriate name and a bunch of bands with loose similarities, some of them playing black metal and others, melodic metal with clear folk music influences.

Written by IronAngel on 29.01.2008 at 15:56

Folk metal is very easy to define. It is metal with intentional/clear traditional music influences. Tradtitional, folk, ethnic, however you want to call it.

I asked for musical elements. "traditional influence" says nothing to someone who hasn't heard the music before.

Written by IronAngel on 29.01.2008 at 15:56

Now, surprise surprise! The mood may actually vary from dark and bombastic to light and happy if traditional music and folklore are utilized in different ways.

Cite your sources, please.

Written by IronAngel on 29.01.2008 at 15:56
Vikings had their own folklore and are now a part of the Scandinavian folklore, so any musical characteristics of viking metal are inevitably folk metal.

folk (from Germanic 'volk') refers to common people. Farmers, hunters, fishermen, herders. Vikings were pirates, warriors and merchants. Now in Old Norse/Anglo-Saxon culture warriors were generally considered to be nobility, with king/jarl seen as the finest of all warriors (more than enough described in the epic Beowulf). Needless to say nobility and farmers are two completely different groups. Groups which were also associated with different forms of art. The common folk sang simple songs that expressed their life. They had very little musical skills, so what could they do? Now nobility didn't participate in such entertainment. First of all they had Skalds (Scops in Anglo-Saxon culture) who sang for them. Generally they sang about brave heroes and kings, often after taking part in battles of the said figures:
"Thereafter he called his skalds, and ordered them to go in within the shield defence. 'Ye shall.' says the king, 'remain here, and see the circumstances which may take place, and then ye will not have to follow the reports of others in what ye afterwards tell or sing concerning it.'"
-- Saga of Olaf Haraldson, Of King Olaf's Skalds.
The Skaldic art was very different from that of the common folk. Apart the vast lyrical differences, they also incorporated alliterative verse (most notably the extremely complex dróttkvætt), which put more emphasis on impressive sounding of the poems, instead of light and happy feeling.
Icelandic sagas also mention vikings participating in something they call "working songs" -- something that today is associated mainly with sailors and had its revival in the French Normandy - coincidence? Apparently another coincidence is that the said working songs put more emphasis on vocalisation - chanting and multiple vocalists reinforcing the leading one, instead of rich instrumentalisation appearing in folk music. The same difference can be found between viking and folk metal. Third coincidence is that when Manegarm released an acoustic album, it contained much more influences from working songs than your average nordic folk.

To summarise, vikings and commoners had completely different lifestyles. The songs and poems they listened to were lofty, epic (again, Beowulf) and generally spoke of heroes and kings, sometimes gods. As sailors and warriors, they often had to fight to survive, and this finds expression in viking metal's aggresive attitude. Commoners listened to simple and usually down-to-earth songs about their folklore and life. The greatest threat they had to face was starvation, so their music was rather light.

Written by IronAngel on 29.01.2008 at 15:56

If lyrical theme is enough to define viking metal, then why are not Manowar of Therion viking metal? (A few songs of them, mind you.)

It isn't enough. Viking metal generally incorporates a specific mid-tempo drumming, heavy focus on vocalisation (almost always in tenor or other relatively low range), use of folk instruments, although not to such an extend as that found in folk metal. The melodies have to be bombastic/lofty, usually repetetive.

Written by IronAngel on 29.01.2008 at 15:56

On a different note, I don't understand how epic folk is an oxymoron.

"folk" is a synonym of "common people", keyword being 'common'.
"epic" as adjective means extraordinary (typically in length)
By putting these two words together you create expression that insinuates something is both common and extraordinary - oxymoron.

Personally I have no idea how some people can put the two into common 'nordic folk'...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=OIc4VHxU7iM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=GVNmnp0aXZ8

Mind that folklore often refers to what was interpreted/invented as national/mythical history in the 1800s when many national epics were written. I maintain that pretty much all characteristics of viking metal can either be reduced to other metal genres or folk music. And "traditional music influences" doesn't say a lot, because the field of folk metal is so wide. That's because the field of folk music is so wide and the way in which it can be borrowed from is even wider. I don't see what's so odd about that.

I suppose there's little point in arguing over it, but surely you agree with me that "viking metal" wouldn't the most fitting name for such a genre, if it hypothetically did exist? There's nothing particularly viking about the musical tradition and lyrics are hardly enough to give it its name. Especially since most other metal genres commonly borrow viking themes.

How about black/power/whatever metal with Viking thematics instead of Viking metal?

Written by IronAngel on 29.01.2008 at 22:20

I suppose there's little point in arguing over it, but surely you agree with me that "viking metal" wouldn't the most fitting name for such a genre, if it hypothetically did exist? There's nothing particularly viking about the musical tradition and lyrics are hardly enough to give it its name. Especially since most other metal genres commonly borrow viking themes.

Surely, I don't. It's not any less fitting than death or speed or thrash. It describes the music well enough and it is in common use among fans of viking/folk metal. If you find it stupid or whatever... well tough luck.

Written by +{Jonas}+ on 28.01.2008 at 21:43

Candiria. Math metal, heh. Probably is referring to a very technical metal... but it sounds like "nerd metal"

I really thought about this so called Math Metal, but wouldnt Extreme Prog metal be a better term for it?

I dont mean extreme in extreme metal, but as in like taking the progressiveness one step further and make it something rediculously complex or something like.... Anyways, that Math Metal genre always made me confused, and honestly I really dont know who the hell came up with such a crappy name for this genre lol

Written by 4look4rd on 30.01.2008 at 00:24

Written by +{Jonas}+ on 28.01.2008 at 21:43

Candiria. Math metal, heh. Probably is referring to a very technical metal... but it sounds like "nerd metal"

I really thought about this so called Math Metal, but wouldnt Extreme Prog metal be a better term for it?

I dont mean extreme in extreme metal, but as in like taking the progressiveness one step further and make it something rediculously complex or something like.... Anyways, that Math Metal genre always made me confused, and honestly I really dont know who the hell came up with such a crappy name for this genre lol

possibly, but not likely. with "math metal" you have changes in the time signature as often as every two measures, which defers the music from maintaining some kind of phrasing. extreme prog changes as well, but not nearly as often. as well, the phrasing is noticeable in extreme prog, as opposed to math metal, which is basically organized chaos.

i could explain it more thoroughly, but i'm not sure how much you know about music theory. but if you want, i'll try.

Written by draconia on 12.07.2006 at 00:50

an estonian band Loits is called national romantic metal

I had hear about Romantic doom metal and national socialistic but not national romantic

Written by Bad English on 01.02.2008 at 20:01

Written by draconia on 12.07.2006 at 00:50

an estonian band Loits is called national romantic metal

I had hear about Romantic doom metal and national socialistic but not national romantic

national romantic metal? *screaming over a blast beat* AAAHHHH I FUCKIN LOVE YOUUU!!! DIE!! HERE'S A BOUQET OF FLOWERS...FOR YOUR GRAVE!

Nationalist romantic doom metal would probably have lyrics like 'flowers along the Aegean Sea wither and die...the walls of Troy scream your name and cry...' if it was a band from Turkey, for example...

Written by [user id=2084] on 02.02.2008 at 00:36

Nationalist romantic doom metal would probably have lyrics like 'flowers along the Aegean Sea wither and die...the walls of Troy scream your name and cry...' if it was a band from Turkey, for example...

but Dis Pater call tham selfs Romantic Doom metal and some hwo beeing close to Keliningrad(Keenigsberg) i can imagine why, whan I read those lyrics to better understand read IM 'Mother Russia''

@K7: Yeah, I can see a song called Mother Russia by a band from Keenigsberg being romantic, nationalist and doomish...

I've just discovered a new subgenre!!

Scottish Pirate Metal, the band is called Alestorm.

And I think they soun like folk metal. Is it really necessary these stupid names?

Written by b0000mst1ck on 01.02.2008 at 11:00

"math metal" you have changes in the time signature as often as every two measures, which defers the music from maintaining some kind of phrasing. extreme prog changes as well, but not nearly as often. as well, the phrasing is noticeable in extreme prog, as opposed to math metal, which is basically organized chaos.

i could explain it more thoroughly, but i'm not sure how much you know about music theory. but if you want, i'll try.

I actually never listened to any math metal band.... so it would be really nice if you could name a few ^^

Also I have some knowledge on music theory as I took classes for about a year when I was yonger

Written by 4look4rd on 05.02.2008 at 20:40

Written by b0000mst1ck on 01.02.2008 at 11:00

"math metal" you have changes in the time signature as often as every two measures, which defers the music from maintaining some kind of phrasing. extreme prog changes as well, but not nearly as often. as well, the phrasing is noticeable in extreme prog, as opposed to math metal, which is basically organized chaos.

i could explain it more thoroughly, but i'm not sure how much you know about music theory. but if you want, i'll try.

I actually never listened to any math metal band.... so it would be really nice if you could name a few ^^

Also I have some knowledge on music theory as I took classes for about a year when I was yonger

i'll list a few bands for now, as i don't have enough time to explain in detail how it works. maybe i'll post something more about it tomorrow.

[url="http://www.myspace.com/iondissonance"]ion dissonance[/url] - used to play grindcore/hardcore, now they're mostly mathcore/death metal. notice how there's rarely any type of consistency in their verses/chorus'.

[url="http://www.myspace.com/candiria"]candiria[/url] - math metal, not mathcore. basically the same idea as ion dissonance, except more experimental. they also take a LOT more influences from metal than the other band does.

other than those two, the only other bands i know of that play this type of music fall more into the hardcore genres. bands like the human abstract, protest the hero, the acacia strain, etc.

Written by [user id=28860] on 05.02.2008 at 18:53

I've just discovered a new subgenre!!

Scottish Pirate Metal, the band is called Alestorm.

And I think they soun like folk metal. Is it really necessary these stupid names?

WTF in Scotalnd wanst pirates, pirats moustly was in UK but WTF one of stupidest genre name what I had hear

Two words: pop/punk. Not cool. first of all "punk" is something like dead kennedys, or the descendents. pop is britney and all that gay stuff.
Punk is a culture of its own and should not be associated with pop music.
If you refuse to go to McDonalds, thats punk.
Refuse to buy anything from Wal-Mart... punk.
refusing to do anything for your own benefit is punk and pop music is conforming.
Anyone else get my point?

Written by {aud}devil on 08.02.2008 at 21:07

Two words: pop/punk. Not cool. first of all "punk" is something like dead kennedys, or the descendents. pop is britney and all that gay stuff.
Punk is a culture of its own and should not be associated with pop music.
If you refuse to go to McDonalds, thats punk.
Refuse to buy anything from Wal-Mart... punk.
refusing to do anything for your own benefit is punk and pop music is conforming.
Anyone else get my point?

i get your point. but that sounds familiar...almost like another debate that's been never-ending in the metal culture. hmm...

oh yeah, metalcore.

hmm extremely raw black metal. pagan black metal (this is an inside joke, there is NO pagan black metal, call it green metal if you want), nsbm (same shit), progressive stupid metal bands and believe it or not, stoner, sludge, doom, funeral doom etc... we have enough negativity in our lives, we don't need more!

Recently heard one. Extreme Power Metalcore

Written by Unconsecrated on 21.03.2008 at 18:38

Recently heard one. Extreme Power Metalcore

norther!

seriously though, what bands play that type of music? you've struck my interest.

Written by b0000mst1ck on 21.03.2008 at 19:57

Written by Unconsecrated on 21.03.2008 at 18:38

Recently heard one. Extreme Power Metalcore

norther!

seriously though, what bands play that type of music? you've struck my interest.

In the section of "Sounds like:" in their Myspace they have "Power Metalcore" and i've seen in another site labeled as "Extreme Power Metalcore".

There you go: http://www.myspace.com/shadowlawmafia

Written by NOИ on 27.02.2008 at 03:25

...and believe it or not, stoner, sludge, doom, funeral doom etc... we have enough negativity in our lives, we don't need more!

99% of all doom (be it stoner, sludge, epic, death, funeral) isn't negative at all. It exudes hope. Judging from your statement here I guess you've never delved dep ienough into all sorts of doom , else you wouldn't make such a stupid comment. Doom is way more positive than most black metal, now if there ever was a negative subgenre of metal than black metal mostly is. And even though it is negative it doesn't keep me from enjoying it. Negative emotions are like positive emotions part of our everyday life.

Another one: Blackened Melo-Deathcore

Shot At Dawn:

http://www.myspace.com/shotatdawnmusic

romantic doom , and suicide black or some band with pop/..... Prifix and anit-human black

Love metal.... WTF???

I remember being told there's such a thing as mathcore.
If that is true, then it has to be one of the dumbest sub-genre's name ever invented.

Mathcore? lol Funny

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 22.03.2008 at 16:29
99% of all doom (be it stoner, sludge, epic, death, funeral) isn't negative at all. It exudes hope. Judging from your statement here I guess you've never delved dep ienough into all sorts of doom , else you wouldn't make such a stupid comment. Doom is way more positive than most black metal, now if there ever was a negative subgenre of metal than black metal mostly is. And even though it is negative it doesn't keep me from enjoying it. Negative emotions are like positive emotions part of our everyday life.

While I kind of agree with the black metal comparison, I'd like to hear an expansion upon the idea of 99% of doom exuding hope...

Written by owl on 21.04.2008 at 11:51
I remember being told there's such a thing as mathcore.
If that is true, then it has to be one of the dumbest sub-genre's name ever invented.

That's a pretty good one, the name sounds like the music.