I not just the socialism vent wrong:In nature of all social systems is to become repressive ......to control the people to make them a pons in hands of few...

Written by Uller on 24.06.2009 at 22:37

Written by Haddonfield on 21.06.2009 at 23:39

I don't understand how communists can still exist or have ever existed. Marx himself stated that communism is but a theory which is not applicable to a society or the world. Another form of communism states that everyone should be on an equal basis. How can a doctor get paid as much as a buiilder. On one hand we have a highly educated person who has invested a few good years of his life to obtain a certain title, on the other someone who after leaving school chose to work. If doctors were paid as much as workers, who would go to Uni to be a doctor, only a seIect few who do it entirely upon vocation. How can any society live or exist under these circumstances. Yes, the capitalist regime needs several changes but communism is a step back, not a step forward. Just look at what we possess today, computers, TVs, cars...basically a middle class family can afford any luxury they what within reason. Now look 50 years back, our parents never had these luxuries. My dad used to kill chickens in the pen in his yard when he was a kid, and he lived in a large town, not the country. Anyone who says capitalism is bad simply needs to open their eyes. And anyone who is stupid enough to state this on the WWW needs their head checking, for they have used a computer and internet, two products of the capitalist society.

Another argument I like to use may shock many but I believe is founded. I believe we can consider football clubs as micro-communist societies. The club is the society generating vast amounts of money which is then shared fairly equally between the players, the workers. The wealth of the society is therefore evenly spread out amongst the generators of this wealth, the players. And who doesn't criticize the wages earned by footballers. However, this is exactly what most communists are fighting for for regular industries and commerces. an equal and fair distribution of the generated ressources to the workers.

Please read the older posts so then you can generate a new discussion or argue those older posts; fhuesc allready explained what happens with your doctor - builder example. I have already explained the point of technology development. And yes now we have internet, flat screens tv's, etc. But just because this "middle class" family (which doesnt exist, there are only proletariat and burgeois) can afford this "luxury", then the rest of fabric workers have to screw themselves? I think is a very selfish position, besides not everyone lives in the UK.

About the football clubs, they arent micro communists societys, why? because if they were there would not be personal profit form football, it would not have the enormous PRIVATE inversion that has today, and because football isnt a fabric or a production resource, you cant compare.

And finally "Marx himself stated that communism is but a theory which is not applicable to a society or the world" where he say that??? really where?? I have read the communist manifesto and says the opposite, i have read the capital and cant find that.. so?? have you read Marx

Communism is not a theory, Marxism is a theory that leads to communism as a result of the praxis of this theory.

@angel reaper: Again, read the older posts. the discuss about socialism was a good theory but it all went wrong is a older discussion, and because socialism fell in the URSS doesnt mean that it went wrong.

Right I'm going to try and reply to your arguments in the right order.

First of all, I did read the previous posts, but thought I was entitled to give my full opinion on the subject even if it means repeating some things that had already been mentionned.

Secondly, yes, I live in the UK. I have one thing to say about that. Our ancestors fought so we could have the live we have today. France, Britain, Germany...all went through revolutions in order to obtain a minimum of rights which led to a minimum of comfort. Don't hold that against us, if people in other countries haven't yet stuck up for themselves, it's not our fault. Might sound nasty but it's the truth. Even today, we still fight for our rights even if it is in a more pacific way.

If you had carefully read my topics, you would have realised that I said football is purely capitalist but that the clubs, used as a metaphor, are somehow representative of the communist ideals on a small scale. To understand this compariason, you need to look at a club as a unique structure, a micro-society, a community. Witihin a club, the wealth earned is fairly shared amongst the players who can be seen as the workers who generate that wealth.

Yes I have read Marx, I was a social economics student in the french equilvalant of college. I never read the statement that Marx didn't believe in the possibility of his theory. I watched a documentary about the evolution of communism from Marx through Lenine and Staline, Mao and then Castro. The statement was mentionned in that documentary. If my memory is right it was included in a letter Marx wrote to a friend, but I'm not 100% sure of that. All I know is that I remembered that statement because it gives an extra argument to discredit the efficacity of communism in the real world.

No extreme political party will be able to impose itself without dictatorship. Whether it is communism or right wing extremists. And even if they are voted democratically into power. Their believes are always going to cause uproar in the opposing camp therefore in order to create the society they wish to, they will have to impose themselves in the long-run. I do not have a fixed political belief, I believe that when the economy is stable or on the up, left parties like labour in Britain, the Democrats in the US or the PS in France are positive on the country. However, in time of economic struggle, right parties are better, the Conservatives, the Republicans, the UMP and the like. The reason behind this is simply that left parties tend to spend in order to offer better benefits, social care, education...whereas the right parties are more careful and economically orientated. I would one day like to see a central party in power in one of the world's major economies. It would be good to see whether they manage to control the finances whilst being socially orientated at the same time. This is why I do not stick myself to one particular party, changes are necessary in order for a country to maintain a healthy economic balance.

Written by Haddonfield on 25.06.2009 at 17:49

Secondly, yes, I live in the UK. I have one thing to say about that. Our ancestors fought so we could have the live we have today. France, Britain, Germany...all went through revolutions in order to obtain a minimum of rights which led to a minimum of comfort. Don't hold that against us, if people in other countries haven't yet stuck up for themselves, it's not our fault. Might sound nasty but it's the truth. Even today, we still fight for our rights even if it is in a more pacific way.

Still, you are lucky to have been born in the UK and not in Congo.

Written by ANGEL REAPER on 24.06.2009 at 22:51

I not just the socialism vent wrong:In nature of all social systems is to become repressive ......to control the people to make them a pons in hands of few...

Nice to see new generataion this better and better how old once

Suppose so, but if I were born in Congo, I would have had to deal with it. Don't know if I would have had the same mentality as I've got now as I would have had a different upbringing but I don't think I would have been jealous of wealthier countries. I'm far from being rich as it is now, been looking for work for almost a year but I still don't look at others with jealous eyes, just get on with my life and hope things will sort themselves out.

Written by Haddonfield on 25.06.2009 at 19:22

Suppose so, but if I were born in Congo, I would have had to deal with it. Don't know if I would have had the same mentality as I've got now as I would have had a different upbringing but I don't think I would have been jealous of wealthier countries. I'm far from being rich as it is now, been looking for work for almost a year but I still don't look at others with jealous eyes, just get on with my life and hope things will sort themselves out.

Well, that's how it should be, but saying that you're in better conditions than a random person living in another country cuz your ancestors fought for them was not pertinent.

Written by Elio on 25.06.2009 at 18:49

Written by Haddonfield on 25.06.2009 at 17:49

Secondly, yes, I live in the UK. I have one thing to say about that. Our ancestors fought so we could have the live we have today. France, Britain, Germany...all went through revolutions in order to obtain a minimum of rights which led to a minimum of comfort. Don't hold that against us, if people in other countries haven't yet stuck up for themselves, it's not our fault. Might sound nasty but it's the truth. Even today, we still fight for our rights even if it is in a more pacific way.

Still, you are lucky to have been born in the UK and not in Congo.

You mean Cuba? Why Congo? (Those two posts above have been posted while I was posting..)

Well, I opened the thread to put a very nice statement from Dom Helder Camara. So let's put it here:
"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist."

Written by Hamird on 25.06.2009 at 19:38

Written by Elio on 25.06.2009 at 18:49

Written by Haddonfield on 25.06.2009 at 17:49

Secondly, yes, I live in the UK. I have one thing to say about that. Our ancestors fought so we could have the live we have today. France, Britain, Germany...all went through revolutions in order to obtain a minimum of rights which led to a minimum of comfort. Don't hold that against us, if people in other countries haven't yet stuck up for themselves, it's not our fault. Might sound nasty but it's the truth. Even today, we still fight for our rights even if it is in a more pacific way.

Still, you are lucky to have been born in the UK and not in Congo.

You mean Cuba? Why Congo?

Well, I opened the thread to put a very nice statement from Dom Helder Camara. So let's put it here:
"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist."

Congo was just a random ultra-poor country taken as example

Nice quote by Camara

personally i believe that communism is an excellent theory, but i think Marx did forget something in it:
he said that there is always a minority (in his time: bourgeoisie) that takes power over the majority (in his time: proletariat). In feudalism this was a power of tradition (the nobility gave power from father to son), in capitalism this power was one of possession (he who has the most money is the most powerful), but he forgot to ask hismelf whether in communism there wouldn't be yet another kind of power. I think (remembering the soviet-union and other communist countries) that this power was one of charisma, because all the communist leaders were almost worshipped by their people (Stalin for example) or are still cultural symbols (Che Guevara).

You may have noticed that two of the three powers i mentioned were described by Max Weber (tradition and charisma). The third power in Weber's scheme is bureaucratic power, but i think bureaucratic power is something more of all eras.

Written by Haddonfield on 25.06.2009 at 17:49

Written by Uller on 24.06.2009 at 22:37

Written by Haddonfield on 21.06.2009 at 23:39

Right I'm going to try and reply to your arguments in the right order.

First of all, I did read the previous posts, but thought I was entitled to give my full opinion on the subject even if it means repeating some things that had already been mentionned.

Secondly, yes, I live in the UK. I have one thing to say about that. Our ancestors fought so we could have the live we have today. France, Britain, Germany...all went through revolutions in order to obtain a minimum of rights which led to a minimum of comfort. Don't hold that against us, if people in other countries haven't yet stuck up for themselves, it's not our fault. Might sound nasty but it's the truth. Even today, we still fight for our rights even if it is in a more pacific way.

If you had carefully read my topics, you would have realised that I said football is purely capitalist but that the clubs, used as a metaphor, are somehow representative of the communist ideals on a small scale. To understand this compariason, you need to look at a club as a unique structure, a micro-society, a community. Witihin a club, the wealth earned is fairly shared amongst the players who can be seen as the workers who generate that wealth.

Yes I have read Marx, I was a social economics student in the french equilvalant of college. I never read the statement that Marx didn't believe in the possibility of his theory. I watched a documentary about the evolution of communism from Marx through Lenine and Staline, Mao and then Castro. The statement was mentionned in that documentary. If my memory is right it was included in a letter Marx wrote to a friend, but I'm not 100% sure of that. All I know is that I remembered that statement because it gives an extra argument to discredit the efficacity of communism in the real world.

No extreme political party will be able to impose itself without dictatorship. Whether it is communism or right wing extremists. And even if they are voted democratically into power. Their believes are always going to cause uproar in the opposing camp therefore in order to create the society they wish to, they will have to impose themselves in the long-run. I do not have a fixed political belief, I believe that when the economy is stable or on the up, left parties like labour in Britain, the Democrats in the US or the PS in France are positive on the country. However, in time of economic struggle, right parties are better, the Conservatives, the Republicans, the UMP and the like. The reason behind this is simply that left parties tend to spend in order to offer better benefits, social care, education...whereas the right parties are more careful and economically orientated. I would one day like to see a central party in power in one of the world's major economies. It would be good to see whether they manage to control the finances whilst being socially orientated at the same time. This is why I do not stick myself to one particular party, changes are necessary in order for a country to maintain a healthy economic balance.

First of all, I have nothing against UK or US or any "first world" country, I said that no everyone lives in UK because the material and subjective conditions are different in each country and regions around the world, because they particular history and social conditions. But the fact that first world countries have better economies than the other ones is because their inner revolutions and the people fought for that, I disagree with you.

I dont know how the football works, so i wont discuss that until i read and inform myself more about.

You cant stand your arguments upon a documentary that you watched and dont remember well, really...

In communism a dictatorship?? yes, the dictatorship of the proletariat. Now In socialism, there is no such person leading all the people, there is not ONE president, ONE leader. In socialism the estate structure is diferent from that burgeois"democracy" that we know. the ones that governs are the people, how? is called a Leninist structure. Yes, there always will be one that gives the face to the world and the one that is going to be called THE EVIL DICTATOR, but behind this evil person, is the proletarians that lead the proletarians to their freedom.

Wow, it has been more than a month and no new posts!!

It is not worth to even speak about

Written by Ellrohir on 01.08.2009 at 09:05

It is not worth to even speak about

Lol, Why?

Written by Uller on 01.08.2009 at 22:10

Written by Ellrohir on 01.08.2009 at 09:05

It is not worth to even speak about

Lol, Why?

Look from what country he comes , ask Jaromir Jagr why he play whit 68 number , you will know why

But whats bad - communist party in our country still has about 15-20% of voters...and in last votes into local "governments" in 2008, they made so good results somewhere, they are now in lead again together with ČSSD...hopefully it seems now they wont get so much in autumn parliament votes

Written by Ellrohir on 02.08.2009 at 15:49

But whats bad - communist party in our country still has about 15-20% of voters...and in last votes into local "governments" in 2008, they made so good results somewhere, they are now in lead again together with ČSSD...hopefully it seems now they wont get so much in autumn parliament votes

Man same here in Lv many russias who live here vote for lecft winged forces, specely near Rud border, damn now Im happy whit EU and NATO think it was 61% yes to EU , but in Russians was like 90% no to EU

We have quite few Russians here (maybe those in Karlovy Vary, there are plenty of those rich eastern "businessmen")...it are Czech people who do this...i find it quite sad...know current government isnt perfect, western world isnt perfect, democracy isnt perfect, but who the hell can think communism would be a better way...

Written by Ellrohir on 02.08.2009 at 16:51

We have quite few Russians here (maybe those in Karlovy Vary, there are plenty of those rich eastern "businessmen")...it are Czech people who do this...i find it quite sad...know current government isnt perfect, western world isnt perfect, democracy isnt perfect, but who the hell can think communism would be a better way...

here is diffeerent many of them ''come'' here they say liberate, we say ocupay, but many of them are from central asia , many live here 60 years and cant speek latvian, but generaly 70% of russians hasnt citiznship, so they cant wote , cant comment , but new generation in my age think diferent many lives in UK, works there and many wote for EU, but old low mindet people who still think west is evil , stalin was god and they liberate whole Europe, well I doubt any czceh n poll call it liberation, well soon they die natural cause but in Eastr Europe situation was 100 better how in fucken cccp aka ussr

Written by Ellrohir on 02.08.2009 at 16:51

it are Czech people who do this...i find it quite sad...know current government isnt perfect, western world isnt perfect, democracy isnt perfect, but who the hell can think communism would be a better way...

I can, why?, with the simple fact that it's a society where explotation from man by man, doesn't exist anymore. Dont u consider that a way better than our current system?

Our country passed through 40 years of so-called communism, so i guess this was long enough period to find out it wasnt working...

Written by Ellrohir on 03.08.2009 at 09:41

Our country passed through 40 years of so-called communism, so i guess this was long enough period to find out it wasnt working...

Yeah, and similarly my country has known the stupidity of fascism... communism is an awesome theory, I can't think of a better idea for a world that wants to be equal for everyone. Unfortunately people are morons and know how to spoil everything.

If you have experienced communism and it was hard for you and your country, it's not because the theory is evil... your government was.

The theory itself may be not "evil", but it is bad..."to be better than others" competition is the fuel of living...when all are equal, this completion is loosing sense and therefore life is loosing sense...thats how i see it...

Written by Elio on 03.08.2009 at 09:51

Written by Ellrohir on 03.08.2009 at 09:41

Our country passed through 40 years of so-called communism, so i guess this was long enough period to find out it wasnt working...

Yeah, and similarly my country has known the stupidity of fascism... communism is an awesome theory, I can't think of a better idea for a world that wants to be equal for everyone. Unfortunately people are morons and know how to spoil everything.

If you have experienced communism and it was hard for you and your country, it's not because the theory is evil... your government was.

Man Italy is only country where faschism n comies are many followers and its used in football to , but Italy under faschism, sorry man I doubt even you father know how it was its many years ago it ends after WWII , so those who say nazies are good, go to bneck in time n live there, those who say comies are good, go to faken ussr in Stalins era you see how ''good'' works sythem. Fuck it IMO comies symbols shood be banned to not only nazies,

Written by Bad English on 03.08.2009 at 12:33

IMO comies symbols shood be banned to not only nazies,

and IMO no symbols should be banned at all...it are just pictograms, writings on paper...people are bad, not symbols...

Written by Ellrohir on 03.08.2009 at 12:54

Written by Bad English on 03.08.2009 at 12:33

IMO comies symbols shood be banned to not only nazies,

and IMO no symbols should be banned at all...it are just pictograms, writings on paper...people are bad, not symbols...

Well why then swastika is bammed, vut not comies work symbol?
For me I never pay attention to symbols but know menaing

It remainds me soem story, if you know wan Hallen clib where's 'Waldo'' video name is ''Hot for Teacher''
Grandma, Waldo see those guys(bikers) they are satanists they ride devil horses, womit hells fire drink devils watter(whisky) , listen evil music , see those guys(hip hop gangs) are good they only use drugs ....

Well i dont know why swastika is banned (i guess it is only in some European states, not everywhere in world)...those vise anti-ns fighters should tell me...

Written by Bad English on 03.08.2009 at 12:33

Written by Elio on 03.08.2009 at 09:51

Written by Ellrohir on 03.08.2009 at 09:41

Our country passed through 40 years of so-called communism, so i guess this was long enough period to find out it wasnt working...

Yeah, and similarly my country has known the stupidity of fascism... communism is an awesome theory, I can't think of a better idea for a world that wants to be equal for everyone. Unfortunately people are morons and know how to spoil everything.

If you have experienced communism and it was hard for you and your country, it's not because the theory is evil... your government was.

Man Italy is only country where faschism n comies are many followers and its used in football to , but Italy under faschism, sorry man I doubt even you father know how it was its many years ago it ends after WWII , so those who say nazies are good, go to bneck in time n live there, those who say comies are good, go to faken ussr in Stalins era you see how ''good'' works sythem. Fuck it IMO comies symbols shood be banned to not only nazies,

Yeah I'm not saying that only fascism was bad, also communism was a terrible experience for your people, but it is cause the people at the power are stupid and corrupt unfortunately.

Also, if you recognise fascism was bad too, don't support Mussolini and Berlusconi

Written by Elio on 03.08.2009 at 13:24


Also, if you recognise fascism was bad too, don't support Mussolini and Berlusconi

Well how to say man, if there was no WWII and fucking ocupation life in Lv be like nowdays Danmark something, now
Communists did many bad thinks Cuba, ok Babtista times was shit Castro prommised paraise but in end he turn all over and start other shit reagime ,
Same shit, when people understand demcracy, EU and NATO is key think to humen wrights n freedom,

I support Silvio because Prodi provbed he was jerk and in Prode days its wend for italian Ultras so . Duce, I will stop like him when Bocia die hope you know who's Bocia

Written by Bad English on 03.08.2009 at 13:31

Written by Elio on 03.08.2009 at 13:24


Also, if you recognise fascism was bad too, don't support Mussolini and Berlusconi

Well how to say man, if there was no WWII and fucking ocupation life in Lv be like nowdays Danmark something, now
Communists did many bad thinks Cuba, ok Babtista times was shit Castro prommised paraise but in end he turn all over and start other shit reagime ,
Same shit, when people understand demcracy, EU and NATO is key think to humen wrights n freedom,

I support Silvio because Prodi provbed he was jerk and in Prode days its wend for italian Ultras so . Duce, I will stop like him when Bocia die hope you know who's Bocia

I think that the way to deal with ultras is only one of the very minor problems

Also, I could agree that Prodi hasn't done very well, but Berlusconi is a complete asshole and people don't realise that

Maybe he is asshole, but has he really so much to do with italian fascism?