it isn't allowed to by the USA.

And when i refer to the election, i'm not just talking about the collegiate system (don't get me started on that...grr...) but also the fact that the florida vote was rigged against the democrats (remember the illegal rejection of hundreds of african-americans on grounds of faked convictions?). The fact that his bro was governor is obviously unconnected.

Israel is supported by the USA because the pro-israeli lobby is second only to the oil lobby in terms of press manipulation and political bribery (oops, i mean campaign donations...) To designate it as a massive jewish conspiracy is to ignore the millions of unconnected jews inside and outside israel. Remember that the two are not the same. (the fact that israel is a religious apartheid state sometimes obscures that, but it's still true.)


Now, back to korea. They could well test another device, but i don't think they will unless their programme is more advanced than we thought. Think, they had about 10 warheads before. That's now at nine (i think it's more likely that the bomb misfired than they built a small one on purpose), and reducing it to 8 is a noticable reduction, if they consider that there's a good chance will misfire in a combat situation.

I think if anything they are going to provoke a conventional skirmish with patrolling blockade forces, to split the security council: Russia and China wouldn't support further action, especially not retaliatory raids.

now back to the previous discussion, helraizer: Israel is a liability to America. Propping up the israelies in their current form causes a huge credibility loss worldwide, including in the middle east. The palestinian crisis is what creates so much anger around the world against a country that has the power to force Olmert to make peace, but actively encourages him. It's also what precludes meaningful discussion between the USA and various arabic countries like syria and iran, and makes them adopt such strong anti-american policies. The USA didn't use the developed bases in israel for invasions of iraq or afghanistan, and war in the middle east would be of very little concern of the USA (beyond sending a carrier group to protect the pipelines) if they didn't fuel the israeli war machine.
What advantage does israel actually confer on america? i can't see one, so i must conclude that american interest stems from personal gain for the politicains or an artificial and irrational public opinion in the american populace. What would cause either of those phenomena? The pro-israeli lobby.

Regarding North Korea, does it really matter if a Country that small has Nuclear Weapons? I say let them make as many as they would like, because it's obvious if they use them, they will be completely wiped off the map. This is why I think every country having nuclear weapons, and no countries having nuclear weapons, retains virtually the same result...paranoia seems to be the true problem.

except the soviet tank invasion of western europe scenario will certainly arise if everyone has nukes.

In the cold war, soviet tank forces were capable of swiftly overrunning europe with conventional force. This would be an unacceptable loss to the USA, so they WOULD have used nuclear retaliation to cripple the soviet war effort, which would have led to total destruction.

Mutually Assured Destruction does not guarantee safety. i found the wikipedia article on the topic most informative. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_warfare

Comrade frosty I just want to let you know that your saying that Israel is a religious apartheid state is a joke.

Everyone keeps on talking about jews controlling the media for manipulation, jesus christ what about BBC world, sky news, and every other goddamn media enterprise that displays Israel to be nothing short heartless dicatorship.
That in my eyes is manipulation, the whole world gathers around their gay little lives and think that they make a differrence by thinking they know so much about this country. Apartheid?

I found the wikipedia article very informative, that site never ceases to amaze me. I loved this quite though...

"With the end of the Cold War and the collapse of the Soviet Union, conflict between the United States and Russia appears much less likely. Stockpiles of nuclear warheads are being reduced on both sides, and tensions between the two countries have been greatly reduced. The concerns of political strategists have now shifted to other areas of the world."

Collapse of the soviet union mmmuuahahahahaha. While the US is currently disarming SLOWLY, Russia ISN'T. Oh Boy.

On a serious note, Ban Ki Moon is the newly elected secretary-general of the UN. Does anyone know anything about him? It seems, from what I can gather, that, the UN might actually improve themselves into being a somewhat-useful organization. Maybe...

Hellraizer; i consider any state in which one racial group of residents that differ from the majority along race lines is treated as second class citizens to be a religious apartheid state, including denizens of neighbouring occupied states.

Why was there little to no rocket defence in mainly arabic (not occupied, but israeli!) towns during the war? Why are there segregated highways between settlements?

And the BBC and sky news are if anything biased towards the israelies. The always report suicide bombings in jerusalem and tel-aviv, but hardly ever report rocket strikes on apartment blocks in Gaza. If the only people who died were those reported on bbc and sky news, more israelies would be dead due to the occupation than palestinians.


And Konrad: Russia isn't disarming because it's nukes are probably ineffective already, due to a lack of maintenance. They've been decaying in deep storage since the end of the cold war. The USA on the other hand is disarming only so that it can get busy building mini-nukes, and to reduce the expensive maintenance costs of a redundant nuclear arsenal.

Segregated highways? Undefended Arabic areas? Where did you get this crap from, compared to what country, south africa? There is almost nill persecution against Arabs and Christians in Israel, and defence against rockets? Do you mean bunkers? Arabic architects are required under law to build their own bunkers and just because they didnt doesnt mean that Israel is an apartheid state, thats retarded.

There is no set law, to segregate or divide the Arab people and the Israelis, orthodox jews, arabs, and christian live in their own areas because they want to. You think arabs want to live in an Israeli area where orthoxism and non muslims live? Okay, well what about America, or every other area in europe, they have alot of cultural areas for arabs and other immigrants, is that country a segrated one?

They arent forced to stay on one side of the bus, or get less healthcare at all, apartheid state, let me tell you, I'd hate to say this but I think your type of thinking is manipulative because it is very unrealistic.
This is a known fact in Israel, an Arab man can come to Israel, work, recieve benefits, and drink to his liking, but if an Israeli ever walked into an Arab neighborhood, he'd most likely be lynched or killed. Ask any Israeli, and thats what they will tell you. Arabs tend to hate Israel, but the very thing that they hate, they come to and feed their family with and exploit israeli healthcare.

BBC and sky news ONLY reporting suicide bombings? Excuse me? They display nothing but pity to the Palestineans, and not to mention that the senior executive of BBC is ARAB. Segregation, occupation, that sounds like something that Britains history is full of, more so than Israel by far.

Why did they not build them? Lack of funding perhaps? Or perhaps just economic disadvantage? by Segregated highways i refer to the inter-settlement highways in the occupied territories, inaccesible to palestinians.

Institutionalized racism need not be legislative racism.

Indeed they are welcome to come and work in israeli offices, clean israeli homes and sweep israeli streets, in return for which they are paid a ghetto-creating wage, and are scapegoats for failings in the israeli health system. And what israelies would tell me is different to what arabs would tell me, so why ask either? I'll draw my conclusions from impartial reports of factual events.

And i don't know what BBC you watch, but the amount of reported hamas attacks far outnumbers those of israeli air raids in england. Maybe any reference to the fact that people are abused arbitrarily at checkpoints or that foreign peace workers are shot by the IDF is indicative of a huge arab conspiracy to malign the israeli state. Maybe there's a secret protocols of the elders of Gaza lying around somewhere...But i'll agree that britain has a history (and present) of racial segregation, and the conduct of the army in ireland was little better than the IDF in the west bank. I hate british history as i hate all governments, nations and states.

I have no reason be biased against isreal, i know for a fact that hamas are just as bad, and the palestinian authority is a wannabe-state, and as such i oppose it. If i had a reason to dislike israel, you would probably have a point. Maybe if i was a nazi, or if my family had died in palestine. But i don't. I'm a communist, and noone i know has been harmed by israel. I can think of no feasible reason why i would want to convince myself of anything but the truth. I would have nothing to lose from allowing myself to admit that israel isn't bad as states go, and if it were so i'd probably win more arguments if i allowed myself to think that.

I don't, and it's not.

Ok dude thats very poetic, you never been to Israel, so its the same if I were to assume that I know about American or British history so I dont impose that ignorant behaviour.

Arabs are a large part of Israel, sweeping streets and minimum wage? Theres many respected politicians, doctors, businessman, from the Arab side that studied through a Israeli educational system to run away from the failing Islam nation soon-to-be state. Lots of Israelis also work in those less skilled jobs to support their families as well, including me. How do you think Israel was built? By russian, polish, morrocan, yemenite, turkish, french and German jewish immigrants coming here to have easily accessible jobs like construction and labor to build this country.

Arabs and Israelis built this state with business and time, the only reason why things are so bad for the Palestineans is because of the plight that their leaders and corruption led to the decline of Palestinean business to thrive. I will end my conclusion saying that Arabs and Israelis might hate each other from the beginning of time, but nevertheless, always have done business with each other.

You are right, Institutional racism is CERTAINLY not legislative racism, and isnt Israels fault on its own, it most certainley includes corrupt Islamic society in which I used to live in myself. Palestineans dont understand that Israel will never go away, and at the same time immaturely discrediting Israel with their propaganda religious fanaticism.

Elaborate about the ruined health system, Im curious. While you deduct conclusions with impartial reports and factual "events", I will just stick to my experience and my revelation.

you are the one who talked about arabs exploiting israeli healthcare, not me.

And the fact that there's an occupying invader in palestine has nothing to do with maing plaestinian lives a misery? Of course not, it's all the fault of their corrupt officials (who are being denied the funds from european aid and their border tax duties with which to be corrupt).

Of course i don't not deny that the palestinian authority is anything but a crazy regime of murderers intent on wiping israel off the map (which to be honest is a good idea for any country: israel, britain, the USA, gambia. They've all got to go; and soon), i never have. Neither do i deny that it is quite steeped in religion, which is always a bad thing.

But i would be interested in learning how internally "corrupt" islamic society (how can a society be corrupt?) causes anti-arab racism?

finally, your experience. Your experience is growing up on one side of the argument. You are affected by it, as are your views. Your experience is very different from that of a palestinian, whose experience i would regard with just as much caution. You are an israeli citizen, and thus inclined (being of the opinion that statism is good) to defend it. I am an outsider. I am unbiased. I am therefore more qualified to make judgements.

I was actually referring to the blame of the turmoil, is due to corruption also on Palestines fault, with their hatred of Israel and non compliance.

No, Im actually not an Israeli citizen, I grew up in the West Bank, and now I live in Israel, I for one hand have Israeli residency, but I consider this country to be Israel (jerusalem). I at one time used to be very hateful and anti semitic myself. My association and influence under living in a Islamic society conformed to be a hater of anything non muslim. Its a social rite and obligation for anti semitism to be prominant in most west bank areas, listen I used to have alot of muslim friends, I lost most of them to fundamentalist clans and jailtime for being involved.

Being part of Nationalistic gangs and contributing to terrorrism is very common amoung youths, especially for one: they get paid, two:they get college scholarships. On which one of my friends uses.I dont blame the Palestineans for their life, I blame the leaders, all of the financial aid and material went into Arafats pocket, now the only benefit for Palestineans is left to turn to Hamas just so they can live, and what are the ideologies thats involved in that Islamic gang? Denial of the state of Israel and Holy War combined with scapegoating Israel for their problems to take the attention from corrupt leaders. As well as religion, Hamas takes Islam and makes it another factor of controlling their supporters.

Im glad to see you are not biased, I think that you rather hate politics and countries policies in general,and I do too as well, Israel isnt a perfect country as well, its far from it, but I will gladly try to correct any thing that I consider a misconception of Israel.

It is a shame ( and very telling) that this conversation again reached an anti " Isreal -- American" theme.

NO amount of rationalization shall justify the killing of innocent people done by another. If one side is provoked it thereby has justification.
Isreal has negitiated land for peace, land for peace, land for peace etc......... what has become of it"??? Is ther peace?? NO

All the palistinians have to do to aquire more land is just be peacefull!!!

All the shites have to do in Iraq to aquire peace is be peaceful!! and we will leave!

You see the truth is, Peace is NOT what they are after. It is political gain and power.

Men are either paristes or producers!! what are you

Hellraizer: Well i am not really against politics, just i hate capitalism and it's trappings: Nationalism, Religion, Statism, Corruption, Exploitation, Sexism, Homophobia and Racism. And that includes hating both nations' governments.

Bluescaponne: the discussion has evolved into america/israel bashing because they are the most agressive and dangerous nuclear states around right now.

I'm not sure i agree with you about no amount of rationalization justifying the killing of a few (surely it's better to kill one unnamed president than let 655 000 civilians in an unnamed country die?), but in this particular case i agree with you. Both sides are wrong. It's just a matter of who is more wrong, and who has the capability to change the situation. Israel did negotiate for peace, but it ended up with zionists killing rabin. Now they are not. Sounds like pandering to terrorism to me. Sounds like someone's pandering to terrorism to me. There is no peace because the zionists think they have a right to greater israel, the islamists want all of palestine back, and both think god is on their sides. It's that simple really. There is no solution because the leading factions on both sides don't really want peace. Nobody does, on an international diplomacy scale, and fuck the real sufferers, the proletarians.

If peacefulness were to give the palestinians land back, why did the hamas ceasefire just get a big wall built? What is needed is for the moderate pro-peace factions in both regions to take over and talk without grievance or distrust.

I am truly baffled at how you think the iraqui situation is so simple as "if the shi[i]tes have to do in iraq to acquie peace is be peaceful". What about the sectarian conflict? What about the fact that iraq is an unsustainable artificial state drawn by europeans according to our interests a hundred or so years ago?

And i am not so naieve to think that peace is a goal for any but the people that war hurts (and the people who matter the most to me), the proletarians. All of this shit is just the product of various ruling classes' interests conflicting. The americans are imperialist, the islamists are inter-fascists, the israelies are just uber-nationalists, and the iranians are your bog-standard capitalists. The saudis are semi-feudal. It's these conflicts between the ruling classes that cause violence.

The american rulers want oil (which will get them rich and re-elected), but the grip the islamists have over their populations would suffer due to westernization, and they are indignant about being exploited by foreigners who their religious leaders have taught them to hate. The israeli rulers know they'll gain more power by gaining more land: They use zionism to appeal to people to support this goal. The palestinian rulers find it convenient to keep power by refusing to talk seriously to the israelies (not that doing so would do any good, it's just as bad on the other side). The iranian rulers saw the moderates in iran fail miserably and lose power after they tried to talk to the west (this is because of the legacy of radical islamism and anti-westernism left by ayatollah khomeini's revolution, deposing a western-installed dynasty), and they know that keeping the anti-israel issue alive will take eyes off the civil liberties they restrict, so they arm Hizb'Allah. The saudis have a problem with al-quaeda (which exists to overthrow the house of saud and create a pan-middle-eastern caliphate) because they are trying to maintain the power they have while al quaeda want to take over.

None of this has anything to do with the interests of individual peoples or populations. It has everything to do with conflicting ruling classes, which is the problem. Get rid of the zionists, imperialists, islamists, ayatollahs, bishops and popes, bin laden and co, the kings of all the monarchies and the elite bourgeiosie in all the countries (so that's about a million people worldwide maybe), and the problems are solved. No more hate-mongering by religions, no resentment caused by blatant economic rape, no more racial hatred. that's what you call communism

Red frosty, Fact number one:
After the wall was built in 2002 in the west bank, there hasnt been a teror attack in Jerusalem, and it went down 90% in other areas. I will let the stats speak for itself.

Fact number two: Zionists are seen as lunatics in Israel, they have 1% of any influence from Zionism in politics, it doesnt work.

Fact number three: Israel gave up Gush katif, the north all in past Israeli history, and what happenned after that? The Palestineans attacked moreso on the given land as well as the lebanese. America is always pressuring Israel to negotiate and not attack Palestine, and Israel does, but yet Hamas cant even admit that Israel is a country. Hows that for diplomacy? I never seen Palestine give in to any negototians. No common ground, all they do is condemn Israel and deny its existence.

Dont speak for all Israelis, please "Israelis dont want peace", thats crap. You are just saying that to get your point across, and Arabs also want peace too, its their leaders and religion thats fucking it up for all their civilians.

when i refer to a national group i refer to it's representatives. That is it's ruling class. I thought i had made this clear in my last paragraph. And the israeli ruling class do NOT want peace.

If zionism is the lunatic fringe, why has nobody tried to repeat what Yitzhak Rabin did? If zionists are powerful to execute the premier, they are powerful enough to influence israeli politics.

I have not ever defended Hamas' position, and i made it patently clear that i do not believe the palestinians (their ruling class) want peace. I'm not on their side, and i have as much contempt for them as i have for olmert and his cronies.

As for your final line: That's exactly what my last paragraph said. Did you read it?

OK, well excuse me for not reading your massive post...Zionism is the lunatic fringe, there has been two riots and lynchings by religious jews and they are always causing problems internally, they are all on welfare, they are raving LUNATICS, no one takes them seriousley. I would disagree that they dont want peace, everyone does,BUT its just that no one has any tolerance to struggle with each anymore, so in a way you are right.

The thing is that the person that killed rabin was actually cooperating financially and strategically with a secular women who hated rabin. Sure Zionism was used in the past to hold morale, but now people think for themselves and are
realizing religion is the cause of many social flaws.

Well, thank you, I also hate the ruling class of countries, Israel's govt is pretty corrupt, Sharon was indicted with fraud and if you heard recently, Katsav was indicted with rape on 10 differrent occasions! If this isnt true, then it explain Israel's political slander campaign which stops at nothing.

well then we are in agreement: The whole shit is the fault of the capitalist ruling classes and lunatic religious people.

Well, it's a serious problem in the world, the main problem about the nuclear "question" it's a need of self-defense against the powerful nations, like USA, England, and others, so the others nations, for example, Ira, India are using you knowledge to make nuclear weapons. If you see an example of Iraque, thats the USA says something like "Iraque has nuclear weapons", it's an issue to invade the country. And these countries(mainly middle-orient) are making nuclear weapons, maybe fearing an attack from USA because of they great amount of OIL.

So what's I wanna mean about it?!
I wanna mean that the restriction about nuclear powers / weapons are working just for the "poor - countries" like India, Pakistan, North-Korea, Ira ... Because they're fearing an revolution about power, so they wanna continue on power, If the world analyse it, who are making these policy - USA, Japan, Europe Union. they have these power (nuclear power) and wanna restricting the acess to anothers, justly to put fear on the world, and the way to end it it's a nuclear weapon, maybe the world will return to zero.

ok I think there is a number of ways of viewing this.

Some think that No country should be aloud to have nuclear arms, maby it's one thing to shoot eachother up, it's another to make a part of the environment uninhabitable for decades at a time. When Atomic Bombs are Dropped, innocents and Civilians suffer. I am reading a book currently called "Hiroshima" based on the experiences of several people, things that actually happened, and these things are horrible. None of these people had Jack shit to do with the war, they wern't soldiers, why did they need to suffer? Look at the effect that nuclear power has had on russia, there are parts of russial which are uninhabitable because of a meltdown gone bad.

But from another point of view, without the Hiroshima bomb, WWII may have gone on forever and a lot more people may have died. Also, from a Nihilistic point of view, we have a poulation problem, the more efficient ways that we have to kill eachother off the better, in the longrun we won't fuck shit up so badly.

it's all perspective.

Humans are pretty much a parasite on the face of the earth everything we do, it destroys the environment a little more. we drop an atomic bomb on a country and so much innocent blood is shed, but something funny about the radiation is it doesn't kill the plany life around it,( well the heat and fire does) and though the city may become uninhabitable for a deacde or 2 the plant life will flourish especially since the humans in the area will be gone. I have found from todays society that I am nihilistic, and though I do want human population to be kept in check, I am not calling for the complete annihilation of us, some of us do, do good things.

Written by [user id=21954] on 04.05.2007 at 19:28

I have found from todays society that I am nihilistic

Sure you don't mean "anarchistic" or something?

My main issue with the nuclear situation of the world today is the role of the United States of America. They are the self-appointed policemen of the nuclear club. Why, though? They aren't exactly setting the best example for other nations to follow. It is fucking hypocritical as all hell to try and tell someone (in this case, North Korea and Iran) that they are not allowed to have nuclear weapons, while it's perfectly alright for them to have the biggest nuclear arsenal in the world.

The United States government (don't get me wrong, my anger is in no way directed at the people!) has frequently caused problems around the world so that everyone would think that they're the only solution when it comes to solving (or trying to solve) the aforementioned problems a few years down the track. For example, the Afghanistan situation - the Americans propped up the Taliban government after aiding the mujaheddin fighters to drive out the Soviets, then once they had used them to win their political victory, they dumped it all. Obviously the Taliban will feel betrayed, and to these people the only way to treat a betrayer is to kill them. America must have known that some sort of attack was going to come, they've had it coming for years. Then, when it did come, they went in and ruined an already ruined country even further. Abdul Afghan (meaning your standard Afghan) is probably not feeling much safer today than he did 10 years ago.

This doesn't have anything to do with nuclear stuff, I know, but I felt I had to air it anyway. With Iran, why is everyone so convinced that Iran must be persuaded to drop all this stuff? If they had left that nation alone in the past, without trying to force alien systems upon it, then the current situation wouldn't have arisen. Don't tell me that America have a human rights issue in all this; if that were the case then Zimbabwe and Sudan should be invaded immediately. If Iran get nuclear capability, then well done to them for doing it on their own merit, despite all the opposition and all the odds. If America don't stop meddling in these affairs, and continue treading on Iran's toes, then they can't really blame anyone except for themselves if things go pear-shaped!

North Korea is not my area of interest, nor of expertise, so perhaps others are more fit to comment on that situation. But you can see that I am not a fan of American foreign policy. Perhaps they should realise that trying to impose 'democracy' upon people that have not had democracy in 5000 years of history is not something that has to be done.

Written by Hyvaarin on 08.05.2007 at 14:02

Written by [user id=21954] on 04.05.2007 at 19:28

I have found from todays society that I am nihilistic

Sure you don't mean "anarchistic" or something?

Not really because I do not want the government to fall, though it would ultimately contribute to the greater good. I believe that government and civil control are good things, it allows the weak to live without fear of the strong, it keeps land from becoming one large war of every man against each other.

I really have become Nihilstic, I think that humanity is an itch on the world's ass and needs to be taken care of. I find myself thinking this more and more as I continue to watch the idiots that are my generation seemingly grow even more idiotic with each passing moment.

I am filled with fear that these people will be the ones to take over the world, and I find myself filled with anger, that this generation is so stupid.

Written by [user id=21954] on 08.05.2007 at 19:11

Written by Hyvaarin on 08.05.2007 at 14:02

Written by [user id=21954] on 04.05.2007 at 19:28

I have found from todays society that I am nihilistic

Sure you don't mean "anarchistic" or something?

Not really because I do not want the government to fall, though it would ultimately contribute to the greater good. I believe that government and civil control are good things, it allows the weak to live without fear of the strong, it keeps land from becoming one large war of every man against each other.

I really have become Nihilstic, I think that humanity is an itch on the world's ass and needs to be taken care of. I find myself thinking this more and more as I continue to watch the idiots that are my generation seemingly grow even more idiotic with each passing moment.

I am filled with fear that these people will be the ones to take over the world, and I find myself filled with anger, that this generation is so stupid.

That's not quite nihilism. Misanthropic, maybe, but not nihilistic.

Written by Hyvaarin on 09.05.2007 at 01:50

Written by [user id=21954] on 08.05.2007 at 19:11

Written by Hyvaarin on 08.05.2007 at 14:02

Written by [user id=21954] on 04.05.2007 at 19:28

I have found from todays society that I am nihilistic

Sure you don't mean "anarchistic" or something?

Not really because I do not want the government to fall, though it would ultimately contribute to the greater good. I believe that government and civil control are good things, it allows the weak to live without fear of the strong, it keeps land from becoming one large war of every man against each other.

I really have become Nihilstic, I think that humanity is an itch on the world's ass and needs to be taken care of. I find myself thinking this more and more as I continue to watch the idiots that are my generation seemingly grow even more idiotic with each passing moment.

I am filled with fear that these people will be the ones to take over the world, and I find myself filled with anger, that this generation is so stupid.

That's not quite nihilism. Misanthropic, maybe, but not nihilistic.

Thank you, anus.com...

Anyway, I think it's sad that you've lost faith in humanity so much. I'm not disputing that there is a lot of stuff happening these days because of us that really shouldn't have come to pass, but there are quite a few things that we've done right too. Our generation is not going to plunge the world into deeper shit than it is now; that is almost impossible. Instead of saying that you hate humanity, wouldn't it be far more productive to actively try and better it, rather than let it continue this perceived downward spiral?

@Judas
I am trying to do my part one person at a time, but it appears that people want to stay in their ignorant state, they don't care what's going on around them, they don't care about school the only thing they care about is what to wear, or talking to their friends.

Also I plan on becoming a teacher, of highschool, hopefully I will be able to help the next generation make better choices than most of mine are making right now.

I think it is very possible that the world could be plunged deeper into shit than it is now, especially with all the rise of the number of teen pregnancies, higschool dropouts and drug usage. Remember the only constant law of the universe is "Things can always get worse"

So North Korea recently stated that they are giving up their nuclear weapons programs. Does anyone have an opinion on this pertaining to why this happened or their intentions?

Also, does anyone have an opinion on the increasing tensions between Iran and the west over its nuke programs? The Bush rhetoric has been getting more and more intense and also a report has leaked that the pentagon has a plan to hit 1,200 Iranian targets in 3 days in an attempt to cripple the entire Iranian military if such action is called for. Obviously the events in Iraq are also having an effect on these decisions as well. No offense to any Iranians here, but I don't really trust them, but I don't know if I would want us to drop ton after ton of ordnance on their soil.

Last one: does anyone think the Israelis will deal with the problem in Iran if America and the rest of the West doesn't get results?

Bullshit. North Korea have been playing with the rest of the world for years, and until we have 100% proof that the nuclear weapons program is dismantled I will not believe a word that Kim Jong Il says.

As for Iran, I don't feel any animosity towards that nation whatsoever. Let's see here, the Americans, British and Russians have been meddling in Iranian affairs for most of the past century, and when the Iranians supported a revolution against the puppet Shah, Reza Mohammad Pahlavi, in favour of an Islamic State (which they chose DEMOCRATICALLY) the US got annoyed. Why? Because the Islamic Republic wouldn't sit down and let the US exploit their oil resources in Khuzestan. So, what does the US do? They support Saddam Hussein in the Iran-Iraq war, WHICH HE STARTED BY INVADING KHORRAMSHAHR. Now, let's think for a minute. The West exploits Iran and it's people, Iran doesn't want to take it any more, so the West supports Iraq in a war against them. Now, if I were Iran, I'd want to stick it to the West as much as I could. America should learn from past mistakes and just LEAVE IRAN THE FUCK ALONE, unless they want to have another Vietnam, another Afghanistan, another Iraq.

I can totally understand American involvement if Iran was to invade Israel (a nation which has a need to exist, incidentally!) or another American ally, but while they're just sitting at home I don't think there is any sense in repeatedly antagonising them. The day Iran should give up its nuclear program should be the day that America decides to destroy all its nukes, so they can set a good example for a change. Let the US harp on about humans rights abuse and Islamic fundamentalism. The day they depose Robert Mugabe will be the day I take them seriously again, for this man has done far worse than the Shi'a clerics in charge of Iran. This is a nation that has valid reasons to want to hurt America, as does most of the Middle East. I'm not saying that terror attacks are good, hell no, but at the same time I think America can only blame themselves for years of manipulation when one happens.

1. I don't trust Kim Jong Il either. I think he is a dangerous man, but on the other hand this stab at diplomacy is a refreshing change of pace for the Bush administration. A change of pace that might wield some results if both sides keep their words. I suppose we will wait and find out what will happen.

2. Judas - I believe that you are fairly accurate in your observations that America has caused many of the problems that it is now dealing with in the Middle East. But blame for the Middle East's situation can also be placed on other European powers and also on the Middle East itself. I think that their is a lot of blame that can be thrown around to all parties. But anyways, that is more of a side note.

On one hand, I can't blame the Iranians for wanting to have nukes. After all, they were a member of the so-called "axis of evil" and another member of that axis was invaded. The Iranians probably don't want to share that same fate. Self-defense is a legit excuse I think. But their is always the other side of the coin: and this side of the coin involves the Iranian president being very open with his hatred for Israel. I think this greatly complicates the situation. Having self-defense against big, bad America is one thing, but wanting to remove the Jewish race from the face of the earth is another. Plus, I would not be surprised at all if some of these nukes end up in the hands of terrorists - the ultimate acquisition if you are in one of these groups. Like everything in life (and politics) there is no black and white answer. I don't know if violence is going to solve this problem, but I also don't see diplomacy helping the situation either.

@Winter Death: You've hit the nail on the head with your final statement. The rot runs too deep for a simple solution to materialise. On the North Korea point, while Kim Jong Il is a wart, I think steps like these are far better than the open hostility that we've become accustomed to. Waiting is the only thing we can do to see if the North Koreans will keep their word on this. On the Middle East point, well, I do agree with you that the US (and by extension the European 'powers' of the late 19th and early-mid 20th centuries) are not solely to blame for the problems in that region, because let's face it, the people of those nations haven't exactly helped themselves constructively. Look at the Palestinians - they're fighting every day against Israel for their freedom, but only having one enemy would be too easy, so they decided to fight amongst themselves just as much.

About the Israeli situation with Iran, well, Iran doesn't want to exterminate the Jewish race, not at all. In fact, outside of Israel, Iran has the largest population of Jews in the Middle East, and they aren't outrageously persecuted or anything. The Islamic Republic often states that the Jews are not their enemies, but the Zionists are. They aren't against Jews, they're against Israel as a nation. I don't support this view whatsoever, I think Israel is there whether the Iranians like it or not, and it will stay there too whatever they try and do about it. Terrorist groups would be hard-pressed to get nuclear weapons from Iran, just like they're hard-pressed getting conventional weapons! Remember, most Islamic fundamentalist groups are believers in Sunni Islam, while Iran is a Shi'a state. The only group it actively supports (with weapons) is the Lebanese group Hezbollah, which doesn't want to erase Israel (or America), but wants to stop these nations interfering in Lebanon. I know Hezbollah are classed as a terrorist group by quite a few nations (including the US, UK and Israel), but I'd much rather that they have weapons than hear that al-Qaeda or Hamas or the Taliban have gotten their hands on them.