Written by Torelli on 18.04.2007 at 17:24

Written by Doc G. on 18.04.2007 at 09:12

Sorry I cant vote, but id really love to (10 more days!)

Hell yes metal is a subculture, theres so much more than the music, its a lifestyle, I dont know if its just me, but sometimes Ill even go to a metal show I know I probably wont be into just to be around other metalheads and discuss music with them. And Rob Zombie on "Metal-A Headbangers Journey" put it right, "No one says 'you know, I was into Slayer....one summer'"

I have heard several people saying that just have been into a (metal)band just one summer...Sure, you may discard them as "posers", but if we flip the coin, you have people that have been into madonna or mikael Jackson for over 20 years. My point is that every music style has its own loyal fans and set of "tradition". Also, metal is becoming popular, whatever one like it or not. More kids then ever listen to black metal and death metal today, and many kids brag about how they found another underground grindcore band that is oh so "kvlt" and "true". Every music is becoming mainstream at some point just look at jazz, punk or hip-hip for example,that were underground acts a long time ago. What I'm trying to say is, how can anything really be a subculture if it always atracts the mainstream?

Well, its almost repeating what you said, but there are those people that treat metal like a fad, but those people dont make up the subculture, because metal becomes a lifestyle, and those bandwagon jumpers are usually the ones who treat it as only music, or they never took it all that seriously in the first place.

i dont know... i probobly should have voted differently now that i think about it.....

Yeah, metal is more than just music. It's a subculture for social failures to immerse themselves in allowing them to act like elitist pricks because less people listen to the bands they like (which clearly makes them better) and to excuse the fact that no one likes them by pretending they don't want to be friends with those mainstream, trendy pricks. Or is this just extreme metal?

I could elaborate but i think I've made my point eloquently and without making bizarre assertions or generalisations.

bout this discussion i just have read something important:
"the growth of metal as a movement is just another effect of an imminent globalization"

is that right? are we just another product? also:
"the new metalheads are just embracing new ways of thinking, and forgetting old and more traditional customes"

this is referring to a country like Colombia where just by listening to Fintroll people could feel like true warriors, and they take pictures of themselves dressed like some type of viking..
that actually happens in some of your countries?, is you think this is a real subculture, is this corrupting our minds? hum!!

"is this corrupting our minds?", what do you mean by that?

Hell yeah! O cpurse it is a subsultre, because it goes way beyonf the fact of listening to metal, but it goes beyond, it afects the way we dress, the way we talk, the way we see the world, the things we read, the way we develop our social relationships...

Written by -tom- on 23.04.2007 at 23:39

Yeah, metal is more than just music. It's a subculture for social failures to immerse themselves in allowing them to act like elitist pricks because less people listen to the bands they like (which clearly makes them better) and to excuse the fact that no one likes them by pretending they don't want to be friends with those mainstream, trendy pricks. Or is this just extreme metal?

Mainly extreme metal, but you'd have to be really naive to think elitism is confined to metal...in fact, the biggest elitist I know are the progheads (Dream Theater fans are the worst of all).

As for a metal subculture vs. rap/hip-hop subculture debate, I think it's important to note that the rap/hip-hop subculture is probably not as extensive as the metal one. The strong veins of mythology and nationalism present in many metal band's lyrics (especially European ones) tie the metal community together internationally, and I don't think rap/hip-hop or the other commercialised genres that are popular today could approach that. If you notice, most of the discussion about even the more intelligent of these genres (so ignoring the typical 'gangsta' rap artists) is about the music, rather than the message.

On another, purely subjective note, there's something in the idea of non-mainstream music that allows me to gel with other metal fans. Same basic thing with classical music...it provokes debate and thought at its best. Of course, there are some bands that are just purely musical...you listen to them for some cool riffs, or melodies, or similar, but the bands that approach deeper ideas and literature, mythology etc. provoke further discussion and sharing of ideas.

Also, to me, there seems to be (however cliched this may seem) a 'brotherhood' of metal. For example, you would never be worried about having your drink spiked at a metal bar/gig like you would at (say), a nightclub. And, before the punks and hardcore kids started filling the mosh pits, all gigs were good clean fun. Etiquette was applied, and if you started to go down in a pit, at least ten hands would help you up before you hit the deck. Taking it further, if I'm walking down the street and I see someone in a Maiden tshirt, I know that there's at least one thing we can talk about...while this holds true for all artists, I find that the rather unusual fantacism metal fans have for their favourite bands (along with Pink Floyd, Led Zep, Beatles etc.) means you can connect on a level deeper than a purely musical one.

@RavenLord: Great words, I agree with everything you said

As with any subculture, you're going to have your real fans and your fair weather fans. In the US, Metal is becoming more popular and mainstream. However, it's up for individual interpretation on what a "real" Metal band/fan really is. So you could say with Metal becoming more mainstream that it's no longer an underground scene.

And I don't think you can compare Rap with Metal. Rap music is extremely popular worldwide, although as with any genre, you have your lesser known groups/artists.

Quote:

And I don't think you can compare Rap with Metal. Rap music is extremely popular worldwide, although as with any genre, you have your lesser known groups/artists.

And Metallica isn't known around the world?
Linkin Park?
Iron Maiden?
Megadeth?
The fact that there are so many users on this forum from so many different countries proves that (and that metal has many hardcore fans).

Again I feel like some people are talking about a genre they dont even like, and yet try to compare it to Metal.
Don't you think Rap has as many unknown rappers as metal has unknown bands?
Just 'cos Rap is abit more mainstream than metal, doesn't prove that Hip-Hop doesn't have a subculture.

And all types of metal is TRUE, metal.
Aslong as it has anything Metal in the genre description (linkin park is metal, I don't like it, but it doesnt change the fact that its nu-metal, and yes nu-metal is metal aswell).
The only thing that I think can be described as "true metal" in any way, is "traditional metal", or the earliest metal bands like Sabbath, Blue Cheer and co.

EDIT:
All genres have some "mainstream" bands, 50 Cent, Chamillion and those guys aren't the only rappers in the world.
Same with trance, dance, r & b, whatever.
There'll always be underground artists, in ANY genre. (just like the poster above me mentioned).

and Metal has always had Mainstream bands, infact, in 1986, Heavy Metal was the most renown music genre, will you then claim that metal was mainstream, but then became a "sub-culture" again? or "underground"?

In fact, considering that rap IS a world known genre, and liked everywhere, it increases the chance of an rap "sub-culture" and underground.

But what is culture then? I'd say that culture comes up already when people meet and socialise. And as they say in "Metal: A Headbanger's Journey"; Metalheadz are kinda like outsiders, together they're like an own society in the society. If that's not considered to be some kind of culture I don't know what it is.

Written by Warman on 25.04.2007 at 16:57

But what is culture then? I'd say that culture comes up already when people meet and socialise. And as they say in "Metal: A Headbanger's Journey"; Metalheadz are kinda like outsiders, together they're like an own society in the society. If that's not considered to be some kind of culture I don't know what it is.

yeah, but are we "outsiders" anymore?
perhaps in outskirts or small towns, but I don't think we are in big cities etc.
Sure we arent as much on the TV, but that's what we want, isn't it?

Written by [user id=20369] on 25.04.2007 at 17:05

Written by Warman on 25.04.2007 at 16:57

But what is culture then? I'd say that culture comes up already when people meet and socialise. And as they say in "Metal: A Headbanger's Journey"; Metalheadz are kinda like outsiders, together they're like an own society in the society. If that's not considered to be some kind of culture I don't know what it is.

yeah, but are we "outsiders" anymore?
perhaps in outskirts or small towns, but I don't think we are in big cities etc.
Sure we arent as much on the TV, but that's what we want, isn't it?

Hmmm... that's true. It would be nice to hear what non-metalheadz thinks about this as most of us do think Metal is more than just music.

Written by Warman on 25.04.2007 at 17:12

Written by [user id=20369] on 25.04.2007 at 17:05

Written by Warman on 25.04.2007 at 16:57

But what is culture then? I'd say that culture comes up already when people meet and socialise. And as they say in "Metal: A Headbanger's Journey"; Metalheadz are kinda like outsiders, together they're like an own society in the society. If that's not considered to be some kind of culture I don't know what it is.

yeah, but are we "outsiders" anymore?
perhaps in outskirts or small towns, but I don't think we are in big cities etc.
Sure we arent as much on the TV, but that's what we want, isn't it?

Hmmm... that's true. It would be nice to hear what non-metalheadz thinks about this as most of us do think Metal is more than just music.

Exactly.
the topic is metal as a subculture, which I believe is correct, perhaps we should've tried the hip-hop vs metal subculture on another forum that's more public? ;p

EDIT: my bad for bringing it up. (which I think it was?)

woa intence!

Written by 4look4rd on 18.04.2007 at 22:17

I will have to disagree with that, because metal staied in the mainstrean for less than 10 years (thank god,) but I dont think that the same think will happen to hip-crap, because that kind of music is way too comercial, some thing that metal never was. Yeah you may be right about the Nu metal bands, but I bet that after some years they will fade away.

Metal is a subculture, I think it almost can be said that it is a religion, or a form of philosophy

I think every major music category has a subculture associated with it - as well as its associated mainstream branch. I see not only metal having a subculture, but everything else from hip-hop to gothic/industrial/darkwave to indie rock. Where I live, I can easily tell people into indie rock by the clothes they wear, even by the way they carry themselves and where they hang out. As for commercial metal - I think there will always be some commercial spillover in the realm of metal. In the 80's it was glam (and yes, bittercold is right here, it was certainly metal at the time! I guess because there was no extreme metal yet to make it look soft). And now it's nu-metal... I'm sure in the future some other commercial version of metal will surface to take its place.

Written by [user id=20369] on 18.04.2007 at 23:04

remember though, hip-hop nowadays, is like nu-metal is to "old metal heads", for "hardcore" hip-hoppers.
The hip-hoppers in my class are typical "hardcore" hip-hoppers, they take distance from "new hip-hop" as much as some metal-heads takes distanse to "nu-metal".
They hate this new "gangster rap" thinghy, and have dedicated their lives to hip-hop bands or rappers with texts about publical hatred, love, social problems and politics (sounds familiar?) and that never makes it to the TV-screen or MTV.

Hip-hop is as big a subculture as Metal.
In my opinion atleast, I think it's just silly for metalheads to say that metal is greater that way, it's like a soccer fan saying his team is better than the other team, just 'cos you play on that particular team.

I agree.. I personally can't stand hip-hop (of course) but there is hip-hop we're not necessarily exposed to commercially, that is often very political or socially-minded and a lot more intelligent than we give them credit for. I have a couple of friends who are my age and in the 80s were very much into early hip-hop.. they continue to be into it (apparently as deeply as I'm into metal!) and as you mention, they very much distance themselves from current gangsta-rap type stuff. Their scene is more complex than it first appears, and personally I try to at least give it that respect, since I don't like people making assumptions and stereotypes about metal.

Written by BitterCOld on 19.04.2007 at 00:32


"since it's way too commercial" - as opposed to the Glam metal power ballads that dominated the airwaves for five or six years following the Iron Maiden/Priest years? The power ballad was as absolutely commercial as music could possibly get.

Ultimately it stems down to how you analyze music.

If you view "hip-hop" as a monolithic whole, you are just as bad as those who view metal or rock as a monolithic whole.

The fact is hip-hop has had it's share of evolutions, just as popular metal/rock music has.

Judas Maiden changed to White <insert object here> power ballads changed to Stone Temple of the Dog Jam Grunge changed to Metallica changed to Static Knot Nu-Metal etc...

Someone not familiar with metal or the various sub-genres (thrash, black, power, etc) just lumps it into one blanket term: Metal.

Just those unfamiliar with Hip-Hop fail to recognize the various subgenres within that larger genre (and I'm one. )

Totally agreed with you on those points! (for once... ) As I mentioned, from what I could tell hearing my old-school-hip-hop-liking friends talk, there is a lot more subgenres and complexity going on with hip-hop than us metalheads give them credit for. Also, someone here mentioned folklore etc. as part of metal, giving it cultural value... and granted that is one of the things I love about metal myself, especially with my favorite subgenre folk/viking metal, that is not only the folklore but the use of traditional folk music in the metal. Well, I have no idea of how accurate this is, but I often hear of similar things said about hip-hop - that is, some kind of African influence in the music (shrug) I have no idea about it, but if so, then that would mean hip-hop may certainly contain the kind of cultural complexity that metal has with its own folk influence.

Written by BitterCOld on 19.04.2007 at 00:32

I find it beyond amusing that so many metal heads despise hip hop so much. Sure, there are incredible differences in the music and culture, but there are also many many similarities.

Both appeal to pissed off youth who defy the status quo and seek a subculture that runs counter to the mainstream '9-to-5 adulthood' that rings true to them.

Frankly, in a nutshell, what's the difference between the rapper sporting bling and a hand gun and a black metaller sporting upside crosses and a battle axe?

Both either elicit shock/horror or mocking bemusement from the average working man.

Heheheh time to disagree with you again... Personally I hate hip-hop (yes, I said hate too) because for me the sound is like nails on a chalkboard. It just really gets on my nerves. And also I live in an urban environment so, annoyingly, it's all around me. Heard all the time from passing cars, coming from apartment windows, blasting through ppl's headphones on the subway, etc, etc... everywhere. If it wasn't everywhere maybe I wouldn't hate it so much.

As for "appealing to pissed off youth who defy the status quo" and to answer your question "Frankly, in a nutshell, what's the difference between the rapper sporting bling and a hand gun and a black metaller sporting upside crosses and a battle axe?" Well, you already know my opinion on metal in this regard from another thread

First of all, very few metalheads actually go around the street wearing upside down crosses and battle axes. Maybe they wear them to a show or a party or whatever, but in my experience I've never seen one sport this stuff at work, and very rarely even at school. Hip-hoppers, on the other hand, wear their bling and guns EVERYWHERE. At work, at school, etc. it never comes off.

Second of all, I've always seen hip-hop as not a rejection of the status quo, but a full, whole-hearted acceptance of it, and even the product of it. I have a theory that hip-hop culture is the ultimate product of decades of unrestrained capitalism (which is why it comes from America, obviously). What is American capitalism (i.e. American culture) all about? It's about having the most $$$ obviously, having a bigger house, better toys, keeping up with the Jones's, you know. Well, how is hip-hop culture any different? How is "I have more bling than you" different from "my house is bigger than yours?" And guns? You call this a rejection of the status quo? Are you kidding? America LOVES guns! Why is a redneck (pardon if that's offensive ) with a gun practicing his constitutional rights, whereas a hip-hop kid with a gun being rebellious? What's the difference?

So, in essence, socially speaking I see a LOT of difference between a hip-hopper and a metalhead...

I think the spirit of Capitalism is alive and well in Hip Hop, as you suggest, but it is still a rejection of the status quo. Status Quo, as many believe it to be, is that "THE MAN" is keeping African Americans down. White people are rich, blacks are poor. (When was the last time you saw a clip on the news about poverty that centered around white rural poor? They are every bit as numerous as urban minority poor... )

The whole point of "bling" and showing off how 'wealthy' you are is to show off their wealth in the face of the conventional society which supposedly is responsible for keeping them down.

which do you think might bother stodgy old white upperclass businessmen? whites in corpsepaint or blacks with bling?


To the point that metalheads don't walk around with Battles Axes (apparently you never saw the "Black Metal Groundskeeping" pic of two morons sporting corpse paint and gardening tools in the broad daylight in suburbia... it's freaking hilarious), well, it's a good thing - I imagine they'd get tossed in jail fairly quickly.


I guess the easiest way to settle this discussion would be to somehow find someone involved in both subcutlures to give us an accurate assessment.

I think too many metalheads have strong preconceived notions regarding hip hop that prevent them from being able to render an open minded assessment. (You yourself implied that hip hoppers carry their guns everywhere.... somehow I doubt every rap fan is carrying a glock with them 24/7/365... )

I personally agree with what has been said about tahts really we shouldnt ask each other but thoese who dont listen or who are not influaced by metal (i would quote but there is too many and im a new to this still ) , as we cant really speak for it... our selfs...

but personally again i do feel in some way taht metal is more now than just music .. it is now a culture in some way and in some rite.. you can walk down the street and soon spot ppl who are influnaced by metal and its music...

i do belive it works in art too for my self an artist and again im personally influances by my music .. if you look at todays art and compare it to some thing from i dunno 1800's what ever but before metal .. there is a huge change in the way things are painted and looked at .. then it was all dramatic and you can imagine choirs and orchstras..

now .. in most cases its eitehr dull and just what the hell .. kinda work.. or you can see some depth to it .. and in some artist work say like H.R Giger ... you can just asume the style and music that could be involed in his work ..

i mean looking at his work before hand ... I know for a fact he has work with metal bands and korn and rammstein, But before i knew that i felt some musical taste behind his work .. and again its relfected all aound in art .. and in todays world..

But thats my veiw on it... and i belive that its becoming a culture ...

(sorry for any spelling mistakes)

what about people that creates smaller subcultures inside the metal subculture... thrashers, death metalheads, black mealheads?.. and stuff...

Written by [user id=20369] on 25.04.2007 at 16:37

Quote:

And I don't think you can compare Rap with Metal. Rap music is extremely popular worldwide, although as with any genre, you have your lesser known groups/artists.

And...Linkin Park... isn't known around the world?

Not metal, bad example.

Anyway, metal is academically recognised as a subculture, and rightly so.

IMO metal IS a subculture. Just like goth, punk, hippies, and stuff. All of them have their own things. In my case anyway, metal is so much more than simply music. It can change my mood from depressed to pumped up, it can depress me too sometimes but well everything has its good and bad points. I cant live without music, speciallyh metal. Not even 1 day without listening to at least a couple of songs.

WARRIORS OF THE WORLD UNITED \m/

I think the point you are all trying to say, though dont want to 'cus a lot of you dont like hip hop and rapp etc is that metal is a subculture, as is hip hop and rap, and stuff liek that, a subcultre is where a few members of a society have a diffrent veiw to everyone else on life and express that in a diffrent way, connecting with each other at the same time. So Metal is a subculture, the same as hardcore hip hop is a subculter, or punks are. we all connect, rappers all connect, though we express our selves in a diffrent way to rappers, they are both subcultures.

eek, really sorry about the hundred post guys, my computer fucked up

Written by necrovamp on 23.05.2007 at 00:07

eek, really sorry about the hundred post guys, my computer fucked up

Why don't you delete 99 posts then...

Written by Warman on 23.05.2007 at 17:47

Written by necrovamp on 23.05.2007 at 00:07

eek, really sorry about the hundred post guys, my computer fucked up

Why don't you delete 99 posts then...

good idea, i never noticed that till know! yeah im stupid

OK, my question to you all is, do you really understand what a culture is? This is something I studied extensively in college and is part of my career. I am not saying you all are wrong, it just seems many people are still not sure what the term culture really means. And if so, can metal classify as a culture?

On a side note, we did a two month long study of Metal as a culture in one of my classes. Now, how many colleges can claim that.

P.S. I went to a conservative Christian college.

Written by Dane Train on 24.05.2007 at 07:42

OK, my question to you all is, do you really understand what a culture is? This is something I studied extensively in college and is part of my career. I am not saying you all are wrong, it just seems many people are still not sure what the term culture really means. And if so, can metal classify as a culture?

On a side note, we did a two month long study of Metal as a culture in one of my classes. Now, how many colleges can claim that.

P.S. I went to a conservative Christian college.

So tell us what the result of that study was already!

Written by Dane Train on 24.05.2007 at 07:42

OK, my question to you all is, do you really understand what a culture is? This is something I studied extensively in college and is part of my career. I am not saying you all are wrong, it just seems many people are still not sure what the term culture really means. And if so, can metal classify as a culture?

On a side note, we did a two month long study of Metal as a culture in one of my classes. Now, how many colleges can claim that.

P.S. I went to a conservative Christian college.

I've not studied it as extensively as you, but I am studying music subcultures/subcultural theory at university, so I'd say I know what I'm talking about (ie. it's not just "yeah man, metal rules, of course it's a subculture!").

Written by MadGatsu on 24.05.2007 at 08:30

So tell us what the result of that study was already!

Haha, I will in a bit. I am working up to that. I want to make sure everyone here knows exactly what a culture and a subculture are. I mean, how can someone say Metal is a culture when they can't even define what culture is.

Written by Hyvaarin on 24.05.2007 at 14:57

I've not studied it as extensively as you, but I am studying music subcultures/subcultural theory at university, so I'd say I know what I'm talking about (ie. it's not just "yeah man, metal rules, of course it's a subculture!").

Where are you studying, if you don't mind me asking. 'Cause I'd love to bounce ideas off of each other about Metal and culture.

Its a scene.

It has its own traditions. But majority of it is based on what you wear, where you are seen, and what show you attended last week. Most people like that are usually under 20, after that age most metalhead have boudaries they have to watch for due to their families, carreers and overall society. Most metalheads you see today, on an average day you wouldnt place them in that category of the scene...hell you probably wouldnt even know that they listen to metal....yet the only way they differ, is because they dont bother dressing up, or cant afford to wear that band shirt to work for cultural standards.

So no, its not a sub culture, its a scene to a music genre we happen to all like.