I think metal is NOT a subgenre of rock. Music is so much more than just the sum of it's parts. It is not just a collection of notes and rhythms. Music is an IDEA, an emotion, and an aesthetic.

I think you're all forgetting what rock is. Rock is rebellious teen music. Nothing more. Rock is basically dance music. Metal (most of it) is not simplistic teen rebellion. Rock is not dark and epic, nor is it bombastic. Metal has far more in common with classical like Wagner, Orf, or Beethoven than Elvis.

Also, if Beethoven were alive and a budding new musician today I could easily see him in a symponic black metal band. I could not say the same thing about (ahem) Elvis.

Black Sabbath may have started out a blues band, but that was when they were called Earth. They changed the name of the band when they found a NEW direction. New as in NOT old, NOT blues, NOT anything that had ever been heard before. They played dark HEAVY music that was NOT like they're previous stuff (i.e. blues, or rock). This is where metal started.

Anything before that is irrelevent. You have to draw the line somewhere. Otherwise you might as well just go back to the first caveman to hit two rocks together and call it music and say THAT is the original influence of metal.

Written by [user id=19328] on 16.01.2007 at 03:53

I think metal is NOT a subgenre of rock. Music is so much more than just the sum of it's parts. It is not just a collection of notes and rhythms. Music is an IDEA, an emotion, and an aesthetic.

I think you're all forgetting what rock is. Rock is rebellious teen music. Nothing more. Rock is basically dance music. Metal (most of it) is not simplistic teen rebellion. Rock is not dark and epic, nor is it bombastic. Metal has far more in common with classical like Wagner, Orf, or Beethoven than Elvis.

Also, if Beethoven were alive and a budding new musician today I could easily see him in a symponic black metal band. I could not say the same thing about (ahem) Elvis.

Black Sabbath may have started out a blues band, but that was when they were called Earth. They changed the name of the band when they found a NEW direction. New as in NOT old, NOT blues, NOT anything that had ever been heard before. They played dark HEAVY music that was NOT like they're previous stuff (i.e. blues, or rock). This is where metal started.

Anything before that is irrelevent. You have to draw the line somewhere. Otherwise you might as well just go back to the first caveman to hit two rocks together and call it music and say THAT is the original influence of metal.

I agree with you! good points you have presented here.

People say that Rock is a sub genre of Blues and Heavy Metal is a subgenre of Rock, but then the WHOLE Catagory of Metal is a sub genre of Heavy Metal. And it think thats bullshit, becuase Metal is no genre, there are so many sub genres in just Metal alone, its not funny, i can name 10 easily (but im not going to, becaue im sure many people here know) but Metal is its own genre, its independent, its not a sub genre of rock, or blues, or heavy metal or whatever people say, Metal is its own genre.

@Immortal Plague: I am not Disputing that metal is it's own genre, but all genre's were born from some genre or other, that doesn't make it a subgenre, that only means that it has had it's birth. Now let's anylize this. Black sabbath, first metal band formed in 1966, what is their main playing style based off of? Bluesy solo's and Distorted rock riffs, taken to a new, darker level than most bands in their day. What is the result? Metal. Metal was clearly born from a hybrid of Blues and rock. Is it a bad thing? No. Does that mean that Metal isn't it's own genre? No. it Just means that metal was born from rock (And Blues)

I still think that modern rock came from traditional Heavy Metal...

well.. Heavy metal is a genre of rock music that emerged as a defined musical style in the 1970s, having its roots in hard rock bands which mixed blues and rock music to create a hybrid with a thick, heavy, guitar-and-drums-centered sound, characterised by the use of highly-amplified distortion.

and true heavy metal ... lost the hard rock sound... maybe the early heavy metal (primitive heavy metal as I call it) like Black Sabbath, Deep Purple and Led Zeppelin have that sound... but not bands from nowadays

Of cause Rock Music was main influence on early Heavy Metal, some bands was evulated from rock to Metal in short time like for example Grave Digger, many Heavy Metal bands was influenced by Rock bands but many of them was influenced by punk bands, but it is the sam, punk is Rock's subgenre. Some bands was influenced by gore movies, but they also find their inspiration in rock or then Heavy Metal, but all of this doesn,t think that Heavy Metal is Rock's subgenre. Some of the musicians were inspired by rock bands but know some of them find theirs inspiration in Classic music or books, and we can't say metal is Classic's subgenre or Tolkiens... Metal like extreme music was revolution on music scene like Rock, and that is another similarity between these two genres, but Metal bands creatied everything new, new image, new sound and this is very important, they created whole new music world, new playing technique started to use, everything was new, and this is for me reason why Metal is not Rock's subgenre, there are certain similarities, and maybe some of early Heavy Metal bands was strongly influenced by Rock bands, like Running Wild but Running Wild is Heavy Metal band and everyone can separate them fro Thw Who and that is important difference. Metal have its own subgenre and we can't compare Black or Death Metal with any Rock band and it is also big thing cause all subgeres must have some similarity with that music genre.

Metal comes from rock, like techno music also does, and rock comes from blues... All have its origins!

Written by Paganblood on 20.01.2007 at 14:13

Written by [user id=19328] on 16.01.2007 at 03:53

I think metal is NOT a subgenre of rock. Music is so much more than just the sum of it's parts. It is not just a collection of notes and rhythms. Music is an IDEA, an emotion, and an aesthetic.

I think you're all forgetting what rock is. Rock is rebellious teen music. Nothing more. Rock is basically dance music. Metal (most of it) is not simplistic teen rebellion. Rock is not dark and epic, nor is it bombastic. Metal has far more in common with classical like Wagner, Orf, or Beethoven than Elvis.

Also, if Beethoven were alive and a budding new musician today I could easily see him in a symponic black metal band. I could not say the same thing about (ahem) Elvis.

Black Sabbath may have started out a blues band, but that was when they were called Earth. They changed the name of the band when they found a NEW direction. New as in NOT old, NOT blues, NOT anything that had ever been heard before. They played dark HEAVY music that was NOT like they're previous stuff (i.e. blues, or rock). This is where metal started.

Anything before that is irrelevent. You have to draw the line somewhere. Otherwise you might as well just go back to the first caveman to hit two rocks together and call it music and say THAT is the original influence of metal.

I agree with you! good points you have presented here.

The roots of metal most certainly influenced by rock, thrash for example, was greatly inspired by early Motorhead, Motorhead were greatly influenced by classoc rock like the MC5, maybe recent metal like symphonic metal most certainly does get more inspiration from classical music, but they were also greatly influenced by previous metal bands who influenced by other previous metal bands and it all trickles down to early metal which most certainly was rock n roll.

That is only the influence, I already wrote about it, influence is something different, some metal bands are influenced by classic music and metal is not classics subgenre, also some rock musicians were influenced by some classic musicians and that is only influence circle, but music is completly different so...

So, there has to be a boundary to what are the roots of metal, as said above.

Written by [user id=18875] on 07.02.2007 at 04:40

Rock + Heavy = Metal
I know metal also has blues and classical influences, but if you just have rock music and make it heavier with some minor changes, then you pretty much have heavy metal. If there was never rock music, we would never have had metal as we know it today. So yea, it is definetly a sub-genre.

I fail to see how making rock heavier alone could spawn music like Black Metal. Metal came from rock, but it evolves in direction completely different to that of rock music.

Everything came from something. It's just evolution. Metal came from rock, blues. Then metal itself evolved to many subgenres, which evolved futher to many subgenres. Think of it as a tree growing.

Written by X-FrEaK on 23.07.2006 at 06:59

of course it does!!!

just listen to Queen!!! thay had some amazing guitar solos...there are a lot of metal bands nowadays that cant deliver such great solos i tell you!

Queen's version of "Stone Cold Crazy," vocals aside, is as heavy and punishing as Metallica's.

Queen were metal up until "A Night At The Opera." Don't believe me, listen to the first 3 albums.

Oh, by the way:

Metal = two lead guitarists + operatic vocals.

Written by [user id=1868] on 07.02.2007 at 18:37

Written by [user id=18875] on 07.02.2007 at 04:40

Rock + Heavy = Metal
I know metal also has blues and classical influences, but if you just have rock music and make it heavier with some minor changes, then you pretty much have heavy metal. If there was never rock music, we would never have had metal as we know it today. So yea, it is definetly a sub-genre.

I fail to see how making rock heavier alone could spawn music like Black Metal. Metal came from rock, but it evolves in direction completely different to that of rock music.

I'm not saying that just rock heavier alone made black metal, I'm saying that that's what had created heavy metal. Heavy metal then over time changed and formed sub-genres making things like black metal, death metal, and thrash. It's like how blues made rock, which then made subgenres like punk rock and hard rock. So basically rock music made a sub-genre that was heavier than just regular rock music (metal), then metal evolved into things like black metal and other sub-genres.

Allow me to point out that's exactly what you're saying:

Written by [user id=18875] on 08.02.2007 at 03:07

I'm not saying that just rock heavier alone made black metal, I'm saying that that's what had created heavy metal. Heavy metal (heavier rock) then over time changed and formed (spawned) sub-genres making things like black metal, death metal, and thrash. It's like how blues made rock, which then made subgenres like punk rock and hard rock. So basically rock music made a sub-genre that was heavier than just regular rock music (metal), then metal evolved into things like black metal and other sub-genres.

And I'm still asking how it is possible that making rock a little bit heavier could on its own cause evolution completely different to that of rock music.

You are seriously underestimating influence of other musical styles on the metal music. Metal came from rock, yes, but it was styles like classical music that really controlled the evolution. And if it has different goals, aims, completely different approach to music, how can it be considered sub-genre of rock?

Written by [user id=1868] on 08.02.2007 at 10:03

Allow me to point out that's exactly what you're saying:

Written by [user id=18875] on 08.02.2007 at 03:07

I'm not saying that just rock heavier alone made black metal, I'm saying that that's what had created heavy metal. Heavy metal (heavier rock) then over time changed and formed (spawned) sub-genres making things like black metal, death metal, and thrash. It's like how blues made rock, which then made subgenres like punk rock and hard rock. So basically rock music made a sub-genre that was heavier than just regular rock music (metal), then metal evolved into things like black metal and other sub-genres.

And I'm still asking how it is possible that making rock a little bit heavier could on its own cause evolution completely different to that of rock music.

You are seriously underestimating influence of other musical styles on the metal music. Metal came from rock, yes, but it was styles like classical music that really controlled the evolution. And if it has different goals, aims, completely different approach to music, how can it be considered sub-genre of rock?

I guess that metal is more than just a sub-genre, so I get what you're saying. Metal mostly comes from rock music, but there's a whole lot more to metal than just a different style of rock, making metal a whole different genre on it's own. Good point my friend:thumbup:

I must be tired as after reading 3 pages regarding wither rock birthed metal with multitudes of similarities in the responses though some comical, others very thought provoking and many with additional mathematical diagrams, I find myself answering the question with a question?What came first the chicken or the egg?

LOL?Ok , I'm calling it a night!

"Did Metal really came from Rock?"

Did you ever WENT to SCHOOL?

Seriously though, I think the Rock that most influenced Metal was 70's Rock, i.e Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin, Thin Lizzy etc. Ask any metal band that plays twin guitar harmonies who one of their main influences and they will almost definitely say Thin Lizzy or Wishbone Ash. There are many other influences as well such as the obvious Blues and Classical music.

Written by Charly546 on 07.02.2007 at 19:55

Everything came from something. It's just evolution. Metal came from rock, blues. Then metal itself evolved to many subgenres, which evolved futher to many subgenres. Think of it as a tree growing.

In a way, but also alot of metal these days takes more influence from polka, classical and celtic folk type stuff than actual rock, I dont believe just because a band uses guitars it automatically makes them rock.

Maybe metal is more than a genre. Maybe it is an group of different genres, because its very hard to say Within Temptation and Emperor do same kind of music. The goals and playing styles in metal are very broad.
Some subgenres and bands do sound like rock, borderline between rock and metal is overlapping, but then again, that doesn't make metal rock, it means that some metal has strong rock infulence, just like some metal has strong folk or classic or industrial influence.
Speaking about rock influence is also complicated, because rock is also very broad. Poprock, punkrock, alternative rock, progressive rock, gothic rock, hard rock... there are rock bands out there that have almost no similarities. Some of these also have strong metal infulence, others are absolute opposites of metal.

Written by X-FrEaK on 25.07.2006 at 19:03

just to clear everyone:

"Much like its music, the collection of bands influenced by Queen is quite diverse. Bands that cite Queen as an influence include Judas Priest, Van Halen, Def Leppard, Iron Maiden, Mötley Crüe, Steve Vai, George Michael, Metallica, The Flaming Lips, The Melvins, Guns N' Roses, Dr. Dre, Chris Cornell, Blind Guardian, Nirvana, Ween, Trent Reznor, Extreme, Dream Theater, Green Day, Jellyfish, The Smashing Pumpkins, Robbie Williams, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Ben Folds Five, Foo Fighters, Joan Osborne, Davey Havok, Social Distortion, Muse, Keane, The Darkness, Franz Ferdinand, Katie Melua, Pharrell Williams and Jetliner among others."(taken from wikipedia)

do i see Iron Maiden, Motley Crue, Metallica, Dream Theateer, Judas Priest? ok...i do...so metal DO comes from rock...

Mate, sorry to say this but..
Just 'cos Iron Maiden, Motley and etc, listened to Queen in their childhood, doesn't automatically PROVE that metal came from rock, it only proves that some of todays metal bands was Queen fans.
It's like saying that Johnny Cash listened to Soundgarden, therefor, rock n roll came from "however we should catagorize" Soundgarden.

that's just my opinion though (but yes you're right, metal did evolve from rock).

And to those saying that "metal heads doesn't like rock" wtf?
o, so I shouldn't have Bob Dylan, Led Zeppelin, Queen and T-rex in my playlist then? <.<
Just 'cos I call myself a metalhead, doesn't mean I have to be so narrowminded that I can't listen to rock every once in awhile o.0


EDIT: well most of the "rock bands" I listed isn't rock, but you get my point <.<
Bob Dylan sure isn't metal atleast ^-^ same with Ac/Dc and Aerosmith.

Metal may have sprung from rock/blues, but at this point it has absolutely evolved into its own genre, I can't see how anybody could argue that. I would even venture to say that metal is not just a genre, but a new & different way of playing music that can be applied to other genre!

Just think about this, the numerous ways in which the metal "style" or "technique" can be combined with other genres to create totally new types of music:

Metal + Rock = thrash, pure death, pure black
Metal + Rock + Blues = older doom
Metal + Classical = neoclassical, power, symphonic, progressive
Metal + Classical + Rock = melodic death, symphonic black, etc.
Metal + Goth (itself an offshoot of punk) = gothic metal, modern doom.
Metal + Rap = nu-metal (as much as I hate to call it metal...)
Metal + Folk = folk, viking, pagan metal.
Metal + Jazz = avant-garde, technical metal
Metal + Medieval music = medieval metal
Metal + World music = bands like "Betray My Secrets" and "SpiRitual" (does this subgenre have a name yet?)

And so on... perhaps the details aren't exactly right, but does the theory make sense? If metal can be combined with any other genre to create something new, then I think it goes way beyond merely being yet another genre! It is true that other genres are combined to make new hybrids (i.e. I've heard world music + hip hop or techno, techno + classical, etc.) but no other style of music seems as versatile as metal in terms of being smoothly combined with anything else to create an entirely new entity!

And, incidentally, I agree with Sargoth up there, I've been saying for a long time now that if Beethoven were alive today, he would be playing metal. Metal is the only modern genre that can contain the kind of musical complexity and technique present in classical music! Perhaps, in a simplistic way, metal can be called a hybrid of rock, blues and classical.

I believe that metal actually came form rock. I don't consider it as a subgenre but it actually came from it, since electric guitars and bass were first used in blues and later in rock. So it actually comes from rock even if today has nothing to do with it and it's a whole new genre... Remember! It all started from The Beatles !!!

Written by iaberis on 24.03.2007 at 10:36

I believe that metal actually came form rock. I don't consider it as a subgenre but it actually came from it, since electric guitars and bass were first used in blues and later in rock. So it actually comes from rock even if today has nothing to do with it and it's a whole new genre... Remember! It all started from The Beatles !!!

I agree with iaberis.. Actually, Beatles were rock'n'roll . I ll just claim that metal came from bands such as Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath and Judas Priest that are alsolutely hard rock bands!

Written by Doc G. on 07.02.2007 at 06:44

Written by Paganblood on 20.01.2007 at 14:13

Written by [user id=19328] on 16.01.2007 at 03:53

and it all trickles down to early metal which most certainly was rock n roll.

Black Sabbath is definitely NOT Rock n Roll.

Rock N Roll is teenage dance music, Black Sabbath is not. Black Sabbath is dark and bombastic, rock n roll is not.

Metal is an evolution of rock and roll with hat tips to both the blues as well as classical music.

LOL at metalhead's trying to selectively prune the family tree...

Written by BitterCOld on 05.04.2007 at 03:28

Metal is an evolution of rock and roll with hat tips to both the blues as well as classical music.

LOL at metalhead's trying to selectively prune the family tree...

LOL at "metalhead's" trying to make metal something it's not.

Beethoven would probably abhor the sound of an electric guitar. I'd have to say Metal spawned from hardcore punk and 60's proto-rock and experimental that never caught on and went its separate way. Don't think of Elvis when you think rock. Elvis was obviously pop. A few rock bands that i could see being metal today (besides black sabbath) would be MC5, The Beatles, King Crimson, and The Kinks. Metal today has A LOT more classical influence today than originally. In the American scene most of the first underground metal bands were sleaze rock and hardcore punk which was more about the noise than anything else.