Written by necrovamp on 01.05.2009 at 04:15

E.G christian crusades as bieng an obvious religous war

So it had nothing to do with imperial power and land ownership?

Yes but the main reason given to the people of the time by the pope was that heretics were taking over the sacred land. it is about land ownership. About religous ground there fore a religous war.

If the pope hadn't told eveyone that and the English just went and fought there then it would be less of a religious war.

There still was the motive of imperial power and land ownership but it was turned into a religous war by the pope, who in making it a religous war/crusade drummed up more support. if it wasn't for the religous part the war couldn't go ahead because england wasn't powerful enough then.

hope you understand that, I dont think it's very clear!

@Any Hindu: A friend of mine said something interesting today...but I take the statement with a grain of salt. He said that (and he saw this on the history channel) when a new house is built for a hindu, that before anyone but the builders can enter, a cow must enter the home and deficate in all four corners in order to bless it. I don't know if I believe that, but then again, who am I to say? I only know so much, though I think I know more about it then him. Anyway, is he wrong?

That may be for certain devotee's. Keep in mind the cow's sacred there but each "cult" to a deity has their own practices and restrictions as well.

Ah, I understand; varience in individual groups, each one worshipping in their own fashion.

Written by Arian Totalis on 02.05.2009 at 04:05

@Any Hindu: A friend of mine said something interesting today...but I take the statement with a grain of salt. He said that (and he saw this on the history channel) when a new house is built for a hindu, that before anyone but the builders can enter, a cow must enter the home and deficate in all four corners in order to bless it. I don't know if I believe that, but then again, who am I to say? I only know so much, though I think I know more about it then him. Anyway, is he wrong?

I've never heard of that before, but it wouldn't surprise me one bit if a certain sect believed that, or if that's actually in some scripture or another. Hinduism is so broad that it's impossible to actually know everything about it. But I must say, I'm quite glad that my family don't do that hahaha.

Happy Samhain, and Happy winternights.

I rather label myself a polytheist than a pagan since I tend to do things in the Reconstructionist way, though I don't carry that title either since I mix my studies with the occult and hermeticism, along with a heavy does of skepticism. I currently follow the Greek pantheon of gods, and it seems to be where I have myself more "at home". I studied religions in the way I read history, and it only seemed natural to view the world as multifaceted and organic, instead of viewed by a rigid system of a monotheistic deity.

Written by Dane Train on 01.05.2009 at 20:48

Written by necrovamp on 01.05.2009 at 04:15

E.G christian crusades as bieng an obvious religous war

So it had nothing to do with imperial power and land ownership?

Also. But before they set off to the middle east to kill muslims (to put it bluntly) they went on a massacre jews in europe tour as well. And that had nothing to do with imperial power and land ownership.

Written by nociva on 06.12.2009 at 21:36

I rather label myself a polytheist than a pagan since I tend to do things in the Reconstructionist way, though I don't carry that title either since I mix my studies with the occult and hermeticism, along with a heavy does of skepticism. I currently follow the Greek pantheon of gods, and it seems to be where I have myself more "at home". I studied religions in the way I read history, and it only seemed natural to view the world as multifaceted and organic, instead of viewed by a rigid system of a monotheistic deity.

...And who is really Monotheist nowadays!? And i mean : really, really, really monotheist! For example (and i'm in a good mood now) people go to watch their favourite soccer team - their team at this moment (especially if the players score) is their absolut god! I mean, come on have you ever seen how they scream and shout - it's amazing! Haha every saturday-sunday the stadiums are full of this "ritual"

Ok, more seriously now all the monotheistic religions (scientifically approved), even though they claim this terminology (mono-) - have "incognito-disguised " polytheistic traditions, elements because (perhaps you are aware of it) they could NOT do otherwise...

And specifically now, the most prominent of the monotheistic religions in Europe (even now) christianity (a quite "new' system-compared to others, &predecessors) for the sake of Ecumenism (step 1!) had the ULTIMATE task -in my opinion- to merge all the old pagan traditions and mostly marginalize them (aka divide and conquer).

I cannot choose a side - seriously, but now... Science (the new heresy -according the monotheistic religions!) is absolutely essential for the next step. Also if it is mixed (a little bit with pagan folklore - like the salt) well.. let's see what happens! (it is helpfull imo and saves people from the shrinks)

I may be wrong but something tells me that monotheism with the strict meaning, will be considered a really bad & unhealthy idea in the future by most people of the world...

I have nothing against paganism, and another religions too.

I think that each religion has a fragment of the real truth and I think if we gather all piece of these religions we can reach the real truth.

but I know few thing about paganism... (if had a beauty pagan girl wanting teaching me..)lol

ok ok here we go

I think that paganism is criminalized at all, all begins when the catholic church at mid times, begins to expand and destroyed all kinds of religion (except catholicism), all whose wasn't catholic was considered pagan (pagan = heretic), even jews, muslim was considered pagans.
At norway, considered the crade of satanism, suffered too much with catholic expansion, cuz the catolic reign set fire at their pagan temples.

at my view, all that pagan religions has your... enchant, they have a different view about god can be represented by: witches, nord gods, asian gods, metal gods, or even by nature entities, paganism it's the diversity.

@nehrodwarf:

Ok, i understand what you are saying, but concerning the concept of the "fragmented truth" I think that i have a small objection.

Why should people nowadays consider that all the religions (>as a system that appeals to organised societies<) have small pieces of a complete truth? And which are the rules that set and confirm the truths in a collective way of acceptance? (If it can be proved ok be my guest-no problem)
Don't get me wrong but I think that many people get troubled (in modern times mostly) when they accept "de facto" various truths of past periods of mankind (even choosing the ones they are helpful to them). Apparently there is also a portion of people that do not accept any kind of these old "truths" but they have to deal with the other portions (and here comes the fight!)
I wonder then (from the "fragmented") about the validity of all the main (mostly organised) religions, isn't it hypocritical for all of them to claim that they absolutely "own the 100% of it"? (And with ?"proofs"! sacred scriptures, artefacts, etc)

..At least paganism with a broader sense, is in tact with something that usually is forgotten and really fragile (& it can be proved): Nature. Thus concerning mankind as a whole. That's why in my opinion is helpful now. (And it doesn't mean that people who like it won't have problems -unfortunately- with others who like other stuff).

And unfortunately (with clearly humanitarian criteria) paganism was replaced with a cruel "paradigm shift" that some people decided long ago. That is the sad part (as you mentioned)- war for the sake of religion differences, quite unknown and unimaginable thing for the pagan concept of the divine.

Written by nehrodwarf on 03.01.2010 at 20:44

I have nothing against paganism, and another religions too.

I think that each religion has a fragment of the real truth and I think if we gather all piece of these religions we can reach the real truth.

but I know few thing about paganism... (if had a beauty pagan girl wanting teaching me..)lol

ok ok here we go

I think that paganism is criminalized at all, all begins when the catholic church at mid times, begins to expand and destroyed all kinds of religion (except catholicism), all whose wasn't catholic was considered pagan (pagan = heretic), even jews, muslim was considered pagans.
At norway, considered the crade of satanism, suffered too much with catholic expansion, cuz the catolic reign set fire at their pagan temples.

at my view, all that pagan religions has your... enchant, they have a different view about god can be represented by: witches, nord gods, asian gods, metal gods, or even by nature entities, paganism it's the diversity.

THe holy catholic and epistolic church (Which is NOT the catholics) started the attack on paganism based around revenge for the way Rome treated the early church. Since the church fell appart to east and west (Mostly due to Rome's need to centeralize power around itself) you do have various forms of conversion going on. Both the Orthodox Church in the east and the Catholics in the west went about trying to axe the pagan deal. Waether it be based on war or assimilation techniques the odd angled part of it allis how much the churches ended up taking in.

Going back you have the gnostic church. After the early church/HC&EC was established they went after the gnostics as "heretics". The funny part is that all the metaphysical aspects / mystic aspects that come from the church (More emphasized in the eastern church since parts of gnosticism remain parts of the divine liturgy) come from a lot of gnostic texts. Pistis sophia (which is a really gorgeous book based on fogrivness) has the term "Even unto 70 X 7 sins aught to be forgiven". Granted I doubt most pay attension to church on here but it's true.

MEanwhile on the Catholic side of the world, the main thing is that their style (Which was virtually forced conversion) in essence created a few things based on paganism. Celtic church ornamentation, based on the pagan symbology pretty much encompases many churches. Also, with the virtual deification of the virgin mary and how Jesus is seen as god and man they catholics prettymuch created a god and goddess structure for the rituals.

Back over to the East, adhering to languages and culture of the area, the Orthodox structure seems to take on more of a high ceremonial end. Taking into account directions, altar placement, specified tones songs are to be sung in, and also the ability of the priests (they can perform transubstantiation, it's not up for the bishop to do) the rigidity of the structure displays that of ceremonial magick. Since the Orthodox church does keep a more conscious awareness of an ever present spiritual world instead of the west who's emphasis is based on a physical world, the adherence to understanding there are "creatures of light and darkness" would also suggest somewhere along the line somone over there found something that was linkable from the ideas of the people converted thru the church.

Monastic orders for both churches.....
Both churches have had issues with magick. In the East, namely in the egypt, monks would also know and do magick for people based on the use of execration texts. In the west holy orders were practing magick and doing a bunch of stuff that was technically heretical to outright blasphemous.

Here's another fun one.... Saints replacing deities.... In most "pagan" and or non christian religions a consistant deal of a nameless creator god comming by is mentioned. Egypt states that as part of creation of the Pantheon. Then you go all the way over to Hawaii inthe Huna Religion and find a being called Io. The pagans have the Akasha, Buddhists have nirvana and so on. The way it all sits is that is all God, just capturing one aspect but not the whole. The way deities sit in Hinduism and the way saints sit inthe Eastern and Western Churches (and even with Bodisatvahs in Buddhism) are the same idea. They just all sit on different planes of reality with eachother.

Now to keep in mind here, as much as the churches have shot down magick, paganism and anything incorperated they also either don't see or won't acknowledge the way it all actually is and looks.

Also to get to the "fragmented truth part"... It's all part of the whole of everything. The problem is dogma. Like I've said it before and I'll say it again all the major religions all have the same parts that add up to a whole. Case in point.... Karma..... It's the same as "God's ever lasting love and forgivness". With both, the key from it all is that you learn from it , don't repeat your actions and move forward. Forgiveness and good karma are in essence the same reward. The only reason why Christians don't honor karma and Hindus & Buddnists don't necessarily have the same deal with "God's ever lasting love and forgiveness" is based on the fact that "It's from that religion , not our's and we are right.".

Ph0eNiX:
About the saints that you mentioned (and is completely connected with the the thread's theme, paganism) is one of the most important aspects of the modern way of worship! It is quite sad that most people don't realize this and just... worship the whole spectrum of saints -traditionally- & most important not caring about the roots of it...
-It is not bad but i don't like the fact that most people are unaware of it all.

Wow man, many themes you brought up, schism, gnostics&early church stuff, & other things - not bad idea but it is so great field of knowledge and let's hope we won't go offtopic lol!

Trep:
I knew I'd be riding the line on the respponce a bit but I also felt that it was fair to bring up as well since there are direct ties. After having spent time in the christianity room as well and seeing how much christianity has come up in many rooms I thought it was fair as long as I wan't preaching a pro or con directly. I also wante to point somenthing out that I had not seen said on here in any way at all.
I just wanted to show out the "fragmented truths" illustration to the best of my perceptions. I honestly wasn't trying to twist the convo off topic. Honest.

Been researching slavic paganism for some time now. I like the idea that this ancient people had about the world and nature.

It is funny how people use the term ''paganism'' : a term used by christians to denigrate all polytheistic (wow, is that a word?) religions.
Therefore, paganism does not exist independently of itself...it exists only through the christian!

Do these religions not have any names that they have given themselves???

Written by SilentScream on 03.04.2010 at 18:10

It is funny how people use the term ''paganism'' : a term used by christians to denigrate all polytheistic (wow, is that a word?) religions.
Therefore, paganism does not exist independently of itself...it exists only through the christian!

Do these religions not have any names that they have given themselves???

While it's true that the term pagan was created by the catholic church in order to create a biggoted attitude toward anyone that did not follow the catholic faith (Just as "Infidel" is for muslums) It has since become a term that we wear with pride. Of course these religions have names they have given themselves. Odinists, Shintoists, Wiccans, and Hindus all of course have their own names. But it's a term we use to help rally ourselves together in unity, and create recognition, due to the fact that most people in the world don't want to look at our religions as being legitimate, because for some reason it's outside people's understanding that no religion is inferior or superior to any other.

Therefore, the term pagan is exists only through christianisation, but Paganism, is something which stands in a communal light.

Written by Arian Totalis on 06.04.2010 at 22:20

Written by SilentScream on 03.04.2010 at 18:10

It is funny how people use the term ''paganism'' : a term used by christians to denigrate all polytheistic (wow, is that a word?) religions.
Therefore, paganism does not exist independently of itself...it exists only through the christian!

Do these religions not have any names that they have given themselves???

While it's true that the term pagan was created by the catholic church in order to create a biggoted attitude toward anyone that did not follow the catholic faith (Just as "Infidel" is for muslums) It has since become a term that we wear with pride. Of course these religions have names they have given themselves. Odinists, Shintoists, Wiccans, and Hindus all of course have their own names. But it's a term we use to help rally ourselves together in unity, and create recognition, due to the fact that most people in the world don't want to look at our religions as being legitimate, because for some reason it's outside people's understanding that no religion is inferior or superior to any other.

Therefore, the term pagan is exists only through christianisation, but Paganism, is something which stands in a communal light.

So, somehow the term used by christians to downplay you is now used as a way to stand against it! Well done!

"Spiritual, not Religious" works better...

The pagan thing wasn't done by the catholic church, it was done by the holy catholic and epistolic church which finally dissolved in 1055. It carried on in the east and western churches from there.

Written by Ph0eNiX on 13.04.2010 at 00:25

"Spiritual, not Religious" works better...

The pagan thing wasn't done by the catholic church, it was done by the holy catholic and epistolic church which finally dissolved in 1055. It carried on in the east and western churches from there.

Well. there is a difference between spirituality and religion. While they both are on personall levels (even though religion is something which can be communal as well) religion is more ritualistic, what with hollidays and wedding ceremonies and adulthood ceremonies etc. while spirituality delves more into the soul or 'spirit' if you will on an individual basis. Either of them can work, as long as they are used in the right context.

As for the catholic church, the technicalities really do not matter. The fact is that a religious organization pursued global genocide against anything they did not deem fit for their own means. And that's what caused the evolution of the term.

Written by Arian Totalis on 22.04.2010 at 20:28

Written by Ph0eNiX on 13.04.2010 at 00:25

"Spiritual, not Religious" works better...

The pagan thing wasn't done by the catholic church, it was done by the holy catholic and epistolic church which finally dissolved in 1055. It carried on in the east and western churches from there.

Well. there is a difference between spirituality and religion. While they both are on personall levels (even though religion is something which can be communal as well) religion is more ritualistic, what with hollidays and wedding ceremonies and adulthood ceremonies etc. while spirituality delves more into the soul or 'spirit' if you will on an individual basis. Either of them can work, as long as they are used in the right context.

As for the catholic church, the technicalities really do not matter. The fact is that a religious organization pursued global genocide against anything they did not deem fit for their own means. And that's what caused the evolution of the term.

The thing with the seperation was a break in the mentalities, a break in the way things ran and a seperation in functions both of the clergy and of the laypeople. Conversion tactics, teachings and a whole bunch of other stuff differs too. If you don't acknowledge that then you're not allowing the catholic church as it's own entity to be held accountable for what it does/did. It's like if "Todd" goes out and kills a puppy with a hammer. Now let's say that "Todd" just happens to be black. So in that sense you would be saying that black people kill puppies with hammers when in fact it was just "Todd".

My initial idea was that since the start of the church there have been consistant pagan elements (Gnostics for example) and that was before the east and west split. Each side encorperates elements of their native pagan backgrounds too.

Spirituality can be just as ritualistic if not more so in some ways... (Magick...) It can be communal as well (Rituals)..., it has holidays (ritual holidays) and weddings. Personally I'd say that the difference is that religion has dogma and the spirituality generally doesn't. Spirituality has basic rules (depending on school) but all in all it's not "dogmatic like religion is". Either way there's a "right & wrong" displayed but it's more personal on a spiritual level. Spirituality also has one deal religion doesn't and that's the deal with being your own guide (in part). In religion you get told what's good & bad, in spirituality the right and wrong is shown to you through self understanding, personal connection & action and reaction.

Happy Samhain from Australia. Blessed be.

Proud to Be Heathen/Asatru for many years. It has profoundly made a more positive strong person and The Gods are kind.

Written by Alphafemale on 25.03.2010 at 15:24

Been researching slavic paganism for some time now. I like the idea that this ancient people had about the world and nature.

cool... internet search only -or also books for details?

Books mostly.There's not much about it on the internet,and if there is,it is often mixed with fantasy.there is one great book from one croatian writer, called 'hod kroz godinu'

Those who believe in Satanism, Are kinda accepting Islam/Christianity and any other religion that named Satan as an enemy in its own holy book, in my opinion, since there is no real Satan like what religion books have explained.
as far as I am concerned, mostly metal heads use this expression " satanism " to transfer and show their sheer hatred toward religions.

Written by Gelare on 18.09.2011 at 05:51

Those who believe in Satanism, Are kinda accepting Islam/Christianity and any other religion that named Satan as an enemy in its own holy book, in my opinion, since there is no real Satan like what religion books have explained.
as far as I am concerned, mostly metal heads use this expression " satanism " to transfer and show their sheer hatred toward religions.

Eh yes and no. Satanists who follow sects that literally worship Satan as an external entity would have to accept Abrahamic faith because without god there could be no Satan and thus nothing to counter god. However LaVeyian satanists imo really don't because like you said Satan is ultimately a self empowering concept to them and alot of satanists do call themselves such merely to show a general hatred of religion (though not all.)

I should let you know though that there is a difference between Satanism and general paganism. I think that this convo would be more generally suited to the actual Satanism thread.

First of all, the word 'pagan' comes from the Latin word 'paganus' meaning the unliterate villager. That's the way Christians see Polytheism. I am Greek and I think Christianity didn't offer anything to humanity except from countless dogma-based arguments. If you listen to a priest talking, you realize most of his sayings are pure shit. That's why many people nowadays converted to Polytheism("Paganism"). However, in Greece, Hellenism isn't recognized as a religion because the "Greek" Orthodox Church is well-based. That's why Greece sucks these days, because the Greek way of thinking changed when most of the Greeks became Christians.

"Paganism, often accepted as well as practiced by many metal heads around the world."
...well its definitely accepted by metalheads but definitely NOT often practiced.

The main "religion"(if you could call it that) of Metal is overwhelmingly Atheism, Agnosticism, Satanism(not to be mistaken with Luciferinism).

I myself have only knowingly met a handful of true "Pagans" there have always hindus and always of strict Indian descent, and i live in one of the most diverse and tolerant cities in the world.

Sure ive seen kids get into wicca during their teen years and stoners get into buddhism, but they all abandon it by the time their 18. The stoners that dont abandon it simply do it cuz they think its "cool", just like how us metalheads only talk/sing/act like pagans cuz we think its "cool"!

IMO Paganry is a fading religion. It seems to be staying alive by people being Born into Paganry. But Very few people convert to paganry later in life, While masses continue to convert to the major Monotheistic Religions

Though its waning people are still accepting Pagan myths as great stories and thus preserving the Religion but not truly practicing it.