Written by JohnWayneGacy666 on 08.04.2010 at 16:12

Written by Black Winter on 14.02.2009 at 16:48

Written by akatana on 07.02.2009 at 09:55

Written by Black Winter on 23.01.2009 at 00:50


And by the way,who told you that hamas militant hide inside schools and mosques?israel?do militants also hide inside ambulances?and about the aid going to buy weapons,totally false,if you use your head for some seconds you will get it:
Forms of aid are:
- = money
- ≠ money(blood,food,medical equipements,drugs..)
the largest portions of aid are non financial,but in the case of gaza,only the previously metionned formof aid is allowed in,seeing that any money should be transferred from israel who would and have never given money to hamas,so the only financial aid getting in is going to the palestinian government,and thus,there is no way that your friends' funds get in wrong hands,and there is no reason for them to think so.

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/02/06/gaza.un.aid/index.html

anyway, I will participate in a fundraising for gaza in vienna, hope that money gets to the people of gaza

Yeah I heard of that and I think it's not appropriate but notice that we are talking about aids going to buy weapons and not just aids stolen by hamas,unless you think hamas can exchange that aid with weapons?Anyway what was stolen was given back and the activities of the UNRWA were resumed.

PALESTINE DOES NOT EXIST IT IS JUDEA AND IT BELONGS TO the jewish people so leave or suffer the consequences your terrorist mates in palestine kill innocent israelis in the name of a Prophet WHO IS LITERALLY a paedophile ok and think im ignorant to your ridiculous beliefs i have read your "holy" book thousands of times for thy must know thy enemy and what they are really capable of. Also its disgraceful how the west sides with palestine because they are afraid moslem terrorists will protest as in riot and kill people if they agree with Israel also America is your best ally moslem terrorists best they are solid allies with Saudi Arabia with has no right to exist as a country due to ridiculous laws created by barbaric morons from a retarded holy book. And im an atheist by the way and do not live in israel so i do know what im saying without a biased perspective ESPECIALLY since i was a moslem for a couple of years after converting they preach extremism in their mosques and schools and probably if i had not realised how ridiculous your CULT is i would have become a suicide bomber. Religion of peace haaa more like CULT OF WAR

Please go get some education to form a decent and logic opinion,read about the issue first,aside from the crap you learn in your US "schools"

Situation in the middle east:

- Israeli's fed up by how small israel is, and want more territory to build houses for the increasing population
- Palestinians want their land back, and keep suicide bombing themselves at israeli markets
- Israelis retaliate by bombing schools and residential neighbourhoods
- the whole arab world panics and send money and support to palestine
- Hamas (palestini leaders) use the money to buy even more weapons instead of building hospitals and schools
- Hamas strikes israel with some home-made rockets
- Israel strikes back with state of the art targeted missles
- the whole world asks them to stop fighting
- israeli prime ministers says provokative talk about how mush they dont give a crap about world opinion and they'll keep doing what they please
- Hamas officials keep refusing to show up for the peace meeting so that the war continues and they could cry out for more money and aids and become richer than ever
- the situation doesnt ever get better because apparebtly the only ones who want it solved are the people who are not involved in the fight... while both israelis and Hamas want this to go on for profit and personal gain.

--done-- !!

Look at our current situation with those camel fuckers in Iraq...

I'm sorry, I just couldn't resist the chance to use an AWESOME Big Lebowski quote! I'll let you continue with the serious discussion and I'll come back when I have something of any importance to add.

I think this is the right place for this kind of debate

Written by Candlemass on 15.04.2010 at 15:09


The views of Zionism & Judaism mostly in the Arab and Muslim world are distorted.
Free speech, human rights and general tolerance are much more accepted in Israel then the above, trying to portray Israel as the devil
is not only out of proportion to any state and historical point but it portrays the criticizers as much worst.

And I suppose trying to portray Islam as the devil does not portray the criticizers as anything.
Again,I don't care about zionism,I have no problem with jews or judaism and I don't feel the necessity to form an opinion about them, all I care about is a people called palestinians who live under occupation and who are killed and humilated everyday.

Written by Candlemass on 15.04.2010 at 15:09

Your rants about Israel not obliging the law as a bad thing, isn't as self-evident to us Israelis or others who think about the issue with philosophical & historical depth.

I've been hearing about this historical depth of yours for a while now and I think I'll end up buying it, like all the friends of israel! Okey clear question: what historical depth?

Written by Candlemass on 15.04.2010 at 15:09

Law is not synonymous with ethics.
Laws are not universal, they all have exceptions according to every private event.
I'm not saying laws have no value they have great value,
but for instance, Germans hiding Jews during WWII did the RIGHT thing but it was against the law.
This is not a slippery slope, because a few instances of breaking the law on certain events does will not make all people break every law every time.
When the UN passes decisions such as Zionism=Racism, or denounces Operation Entebbe do you expect Israelis
to trust the UN or the international community straight away! when it comes to laws?
Obviously not all laws or international laws are so distance from reality, yet many are.

Sure,you break the laws that you don't like and you accept what you like,that's the behaviour of spoiled kids, not a civil country in the 21st century..
And what exemple you're giving ! you are comparing current international law to nazi ruling?
Here is an exemple: When you started the last war on lebanon,the UN called you to stop,you didn't,then when you found out that you were loosing,well,you called poppy america and told them to tell uncle UN to call for the cease fire.
If you can decide which laws to "accept", then that's the exact definition of an outlaw
Face it, Israel is an outlaw country

Written by Candlemass on 15.04.2010 at 15:09


Only people with childish views or a slave mentality, view laws as something universal given from gods, which should never in any case be broken, or should be respected as such - will find this view irrational and harming towards his view about what is law.

what?! that's playing with words my bright friend,please focus,we are talking about international law on which our present world community is based,it came out of the agreement of the entire earth,your country as member of the UN agrees on its principles.It must therefore respect them,respect human rights

Written by Candlemass on 15.04.2010 at 15:09

Actually someone I agree with that comes out of the UN (since I agree with Megadeth on this, the UN is generally acting in absurd manners) after watching a hour and a half interview with is Richard Goldstone (A Jew and a fellow South African) which if the facts he is speaking about are right, I see it as healthy valid criticism.

Nice to know,I'm sure that I could quote totally opposite ideas of you and him.

About Richard Goldstone, I have no idea what's you point (if you have one).

I was not comparing between the nazis and the UN which I find absurd,
I was showing you that law, is not always something that if you don't obey, makes it an immoral act.

You just don't get it do ya?
Black & white thinking.
I don't have to respect or not respect, some I repect little I don't
The UN is fallible and biased many times.
Here is a clear example;
As a violation of Ugandan sovereignty,
Israel should have apologized for Operation Entebbe ,and if not - it's a "uncivilized spoiled kid".
Does this make sense to you?
If so it's better to be a "uncivilized spoiled kid".

Or can you name me how many decisions are made against Israel in the human rights comity,
while ignoring many others in other countries? (in other words does certain parts of the UN choose Israel as a target?).

Actually a spoiled kid sits and cries about how there is no justice in the world,
an adult actually does something about it and actually thinks for his own right.

The Quran could be used for peace ("But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things") or war ("Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.") depending on what you choose to look at in the book or how to comment on it (clerics).

So Islam is actually portraying itself as the devil, unless your blind of course.
Clerics preaching how to beat your woman , how they should dress (or else..),
how to have a good lapidation, or how the world should be dominated by Islam, preaching hate, blowing up stuff...etc, etc.
And the funny thing is, no other religion has these properties as widely practiced as the 'religion of peace' (nor other religion where supporters are calling themselves in such an ironic term).

I personally find the Quran one of the most disgusting ("Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other") out of the books of the
"people of the books", which are also morally disgusting to me.

South Park has no problem to laugh at Jesus, Moses or god himself!
But when it comes to Mohammad Comedy Central has to censor an South Park episode...
Is this double standard because they think Islam is holy or is there something very dangerous and violent especially with this religion?

Why are you lalking to me about the word "Law" in general??? We are talking about something specefic here,there is no philosophical dimension to this,it's as simple as hello,everytime we discuss about israel it has to take other "deep" dimension, I think it's only for misleading people.
Operation Entebbe??why are you focusing on this elementary thing that happened in 1977?? You know I can enumerate to you at least 20 resolutions of the UN and the security council ignored by israel for no "legitemate" reason.
And just as an exemple of a barbaric act that was condemned by the UN,since I am tunisian,a country that's thousands of miles away from israel, we will never forget the raid that your military aircrafts have done against our city of Hamam-Chott in 1985,leading to the death of many Tunisians with palestinian activists

Quote:
# Resolution 573: " ... 'condemns' Israel 'vigorously' for bombing Tunisia in attack on PLO headquarters

Please don't tell me that the UN is biased against israel,lol,are you serious?are you convinced by what you are saying? just go see how many of the security council resolutions against israel were not passed because and ONLY because of american veto.

Would you just stop with your anti-islam propagnda?You don't know what you are talking about,,and you are in one word,wrong.with a little effort on the net you will find answers to all of your claims.And above all that,let us focus on one subject would you? we are curently in "The current situation in the middle east" thread.

Black and white thinking? no, I'd rather call it honesty. Until someone gives me a good justification of what israel is committing, or explain to me how its existance in palestine is legtimate, I'd pretty much still hold the black idea of Israel

No, you just don't get my point...
Laws and cases should be considered in a particular manner, the value of law is not universal (see Nazi example two posts above).

I have never checked most of the UN resolutions but the one's I do know, are absurd.
The UN as an organization biased against Israel is a plausible claim considering it's history.
For example:
When it comes to condemning specific countries for alleged human rights violations, the Commission typically passes half of all such resolutions against one state - Israel. In 2005, for example, the Commission adopted four resolutions against Israel, equaling the combined total of resolutions against all other states in the world.
10 emergency sessions by the GA, 6 about Israel. No such sessions have been held on the Rwandan genocide, ethnic cleansing in the former Yugoslavia, or the two decades of atrocities in Sudan.
The blunt anti-Israeli spirit, will hurt other rights of humans over looked because of this orientation,
but who cares of the Africans it's the politics and oil that matter.


About Hamam-Chott, Tunisia hosted people who murdered 3 Israeli unarmed civilians at the sea of Cyprus, hosting these people.
I'm not saying it was justified, you simply" forget" some facts...that's just to balance the picture a little.


Palestine is a region, not a state.
How is the existence of Tunisia in Northern Africa justified?
Or of US in America?

About the "honest" black and white thinking, normal people (you know...who actually care for a consistent argument and not a irrational passionate one) just call it a False dilemma.

Written by Candlemass on 24.04.2010 at 17:12


Palestine is a region, not a state.
How is the existence of Tunisia in Northern Africa justified?

palestine is a region,so?
You know what I am talking about,uprooting people,seizing their lands,and settling there.

I am rational myself,I've discussed this issue with other isarelis here and we got nowhere, because they are not honest,they'd say whatever it takes to make us get lost in dimensions of the conflict and manipulated details.You see that since the beginning of this argument,you have been talking in general,selecting very few exemples.I asked you" what historical depth", you didn't answer. I honestly haven't come up with anything out of this.So please quit your brilliant logical unpassionate remarks and talk facts.
Maybe you "have lost interest in this conversation" again?

Written by Black Winter on 24.04.2010 at 17:35

Written by Candlemass on 24.04.2010 at 17:12


Palestine is a region, not a state.
How is the existence of Tunisia in Northern Africa justified?

palestine is a region,so?
You know what I am talking about,uprooting people,seizing their lands,and settling there.

I am rational myself,I've discussed this issue with other isarelis here and we got nowhere, because they are not honest,they'd say whatever it takes to make us get lost in dimensions of the conflict and manipulated details.You see that since the beginning of this argument,you have been talking in general,selecting very few exemples.I asked you" what historical depth", you didn't answer. I honestly haven't come up with anything out of this.So please quit your brilliant logical unpassionate remarks and talk facts.
Maybe you "have lost interest in this conversation" again?

historical depth in the context meaning using example to clarify the subject of the value of law.
I do not care for intellectually for other Israelis.

To the main issue:
You should remember that uprooting of people is wrong is nearly all cases.
There was uprooting of people (the "Nakba" in this case) for unjustified reasons and worst, yet not in all areas (some fled, some were asked to leave by Arab countries at the time), maybe most I don't know.
I do not find Deir Yassin in 1948 not as a respectable thing in my nations history, yet it is and should be dealt with for a better future.

Tho to point out it is not the major cause of conflict in the Arab-Israeli wars (yet in Palestinian issue it is a central issue).
Since the uprooting we are talking about came in and after the 1948 war, generally Palestinians picked up arms against the new born state
and tried to uproot a different type of people (Israelis, Jews) with other several bigger Arab nations.
Including other wars (like 1967) where Arab countries openly spoke of "kicking Jews into the sea",
I think this is a very ironic position to find one's self in.

History is history, yet the truth is important, and is important in reconciling between these people.
I barely see it's relevance to a solution today.
Would kicking out native Israelis fix the situation? Maybe Killing some of them?
Israelis see this region as there home none the less, as they were kicked out from in history.
Why should they give it up you ask if they were born in the region, what they built in the region, etc?


The solution should be consistent and overlapping towards both of the sides, I have posted my opinion of here:

Quote:
A Palestinian state on ~67 borders should be advanced, for that we need;
most Jewish settlements should be evacuated by the Israeli army (see Gush Katif) returning these lands,
And a united, potent, accountable Palestinian leadership (and a willing Israeli government unlike the one now which I'm not a fan of).

More so a peaceful middle-east is an educated one, no more anti-Semitism, racism & Holocuast denying in Palestinian schools.
And school meetings between children (carried out now, but now wide enough).
Also CIVILIAN adult groups that bring people together in meetings (like http://yerushalom.com/, a very interesting new group of religious Jewish settlers who prompt meetings between Palestinians and Jews in the West Bank).

Hopefully a more honest approach from Israelis towards Palestinians human rights and compensations to certain Palestinians (debatable to which). Letting go of victim-hood of two of the sides bad history, understanding we all are human who should look towards a better future for our children - and that means letting go of some of our past, because holding on it has not yielded anything.

I think we should try and convince Israeli terror victim families and Palestinian families hurt from Israeli military actions (i.e bystanders in no means families of Israeli soldiers killed in action or Palestinian suicide bomber terrorists).

Obviously none of the sides of willing to do this for several reasons;
not very wise religious settlers think Israel is given by god, same by other religious Palestinians.
i.e given up the idea of a whole control of ALL the land from these reasons and victim-hood reasons (will it help by turning others into victims?).

Isn't these a "[/code]" BBcode enabled?

Written by Candlemass on 24.04.2010 at 18:24


historical depth in the context meaning using example to clarify the subject of the value of law.
I do not care for intellectually for other Israelis.

To the main issue:
You should remember that uprooting of people is wrong is nearly all cases.
There was uprooting of people (the "Nakba" in this case) for unjustified reasons and worst, yet not in all areas (some fled, some were asked to leave by Arab countries at the time), maybe most I don't know.
I do not find Deir Yassin in 1948 not as a respectable thing in my nations history, yet it is and should be dealt with for a better future.

Tho to point out it is not the major cause of conflict in the Arab-Israeli wars (yet in Palestinian issue it is a central issue).
Since the uprooting we are talking about came in and after the 1948 war, generally Palestinians picked up arms against the new born state
and tried to uproot a different type of people (Israelis, Jews) with other several bigger Arab nations.
Including other wars (like 1967) where Arab countries openly spoke of "kicking Jews into the sea",
I think this is a very ironic position to find one's self in.

History is history, yet the truth is important, and is important in reconciling between these people.
I barely see it's relevance to a solution today.
Would kicking out native Israelis fix the situation? Maybe Killing some of them?
Israelis see this region as there home none the less, as they were kicked out from in history.
Why should they give it up you ask if they were born in the region, what they built in the region, etc?


The solution should be consistent and overlapping towards both of the sides, I have posted my opinion of here:

Quote:
A Palestinian state on ~67 borders should be advanced, for that we need;
most Jewish settlements should be evacuated by the Israeli army (see Gush Katif) returning these lands,
And a united, potent, accountable Palestinian leadership (and a willing Israeli government unlike the one now which I'm not a fan of).

More so a peaceful middle-east is an educated one, no more anti-Semitism, racism & Holocuast denying in Palestinian schools.
And school meetings between children (carried out now, but now wide enough).
Also CIVILIAN adult groups that bring people together in meetings (like http://yerushalom.com/, a very interesting new group of religious Jewish settlers who prompt meetings between Palestinians and Jews in the West Bank).

Hopefully a more honest approach from Israelis towards Palestinians human rights and compensations to certain Palestinians (debatable to which). Letting go of victim-hood of two of the sides bad history, understanding we all are human who should look towards a better future for our children - and that means letting go of some of our past, because holding on it has not yielded anything.

I think we should try and convince Israeli terror victim families and Palestinian families hurt from Israeli military actions (i.e bystanders in no means families of Israeli soldiers killed in action or Palestinian suicide bomber terrorists).

Obviously none of the sides of willing to do this for several reasons;
not very wise religious settlers think Israel is given by god, same by other religious Palestinians.
i.e given up the idea of a whole control of ALL the land from these reasons and victim-hood reasons (will it help by turning others into victims?).

Isn't these a "[/code]" BBcode enabled?

You see,now that we got to the point,we are not that much different,only remark: Palestinians and israelis have responsibilities proportionally to their power,Israel can help a lot in achieving peace if it wants to,Arafat negociated for a long time with no result,because there was no real will in the other side for achieving peace,exepting Rabinn who was murdered by israelis. The postion of palestinian leadership,the PLO is now weak because of israel,Hamas tells palestinians that this government couldn't achieve a thing with their diplomatic ways,and they are right,thus,palestinians follow them..
So all I am saying is that the way to solving the issue is putting more pressure on israel,to stop the settlements for exemple,that's why I am talking about international law.
Another remark,Saudi Arabia,and Iran,do not represent in any case neither the middle east,nor arabs,nor muslims.

When you watch the intro to the movie Operation Kingdom, you have to wonder... how much of our problems with the Middle-East really involve oil.

And then of course, which ones involve religion. That is best saved for the Islam thread though.

Well, if the corporations and oil companies stop fucking with every invention for renewable energy then we wouldnt have this problem and oil would become as useless as toenails, and we wouldnt have troubles in the middle east

Of course they'll never stop! about 65% of global oil is in Middle-east! and they make money from this way! they didn't do anything for mexican gulf spill because they had Iraq's oil which is definitely more than mexican gulf's oil! (between 112 to 300 billion barrels, that it means roughly a quarter of all of the world's oil!!!). so as you know they don't pay attention to the natural environment!

You've got oil in Iran.. so watch out.. they're coming to get it !! lol
well, its not that funny unfortnauely.. the greedy-ass ruthless corporate machine.. fuck this, its REALLY depressing we're living in a world where there's such an obvious bully fucking around with everyone robbing them of their wealth and natural resources and then that bully points blame the finger at everyone else to justify their actions.

if the USA bombs iran and you have to leave you're welcomed to stay here with me if you want (until Egypt's turn comes and we both flee to Libya, lol )

I don't think so! USA has a lot of problems nowadays! they prefer to think about their problems like: "economic slump or mexican gulf spill or pay salary of their soldiers in middle earth" instead of think to attack Iran!

I think radical Islam, terrorism, Jihad and every phenomenon born in the middle east and reaching the world is a reaction to the western culture, which many of the inhabitants in those countries feel threatened by. We could find parallels in history, for example in the crusades, Jihad was adopted as a reaction to the atrocities made by the European invaders, before that muslims, jews and christians lived in peace with each other. It was the same in Palestine before the creation of Israel, jews and muslims lived side by side.
I think the problems of the middle east is that there is a whole concept of "what is good" created by the western world that wants to be imposed all around the world, there is logic in the fact that there will be resistance, there is also logic in the fact that that resistance may become radical and violent. There is no excuse for this but there is a logic, religion is just an excuse, it has nothing to do with it, its just a tool used by both sides, as far as history tells us, religions can live in peace until there is another interest involved, then they become instruments for war.

That 'BasicMan; is kinda cool, i read your other posts and you dont seem biased like the vast majority of the westerners

Btw, here is a photo of the 'situation in the middle east'



a father and his three dead children in Gaza, Palestine.

Written by Bad English on 18.11.2010 at 21:31

One think I dont understand Western world shut down factories, many ppl get fired, economical crisis, but we donate millions to palestrina , asia, africa etc... I know I talk bad thinks now, but why we need do it if we suffer of ecomical crisis we shood think about our selfs, then after others
Such donations we could save our economics if dont do it tehn when all be OK again why not,

Tell that to the US government, maybe the will stop invading countries

Written by Bad English on 18.11.2010 at 21:31

One think I dont understand Western world shut down factories, many ppl get fired, economical crisis, but we donate millions to palestrina , asia, africa etc... I know I talk bad thinks now, but why we need do it if we suffer of ecomical crisis we shood think about our selfs, then after others
Such donations we could save our economics if dont do it tehn when all be OK again why not,

Well, in your case .. sweden shouldn't care about palestine and halp them i agree, but you are obliged to help out your poorer neighbours who u invaded before to make it up for them, so if you're not helping palestine you still have to help your poorer neighbours.

A Flashback:
During World War I, the Ottomans were driven from much of the region including THE HOLY LAND by the British Empire during the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire.
The end of the 19th century saw the beginning of Zionist immigration.
The British Mandate came following the First World War and the occupation of the region by the British and then Balfour Declaration of 1917.

Is it reasonable or right to create a country to gather a group of the same religion?!
Imagine if Muslims or Christians want to do the same!

This land is for those people who used to live there, whatever was their religion!
Muslims, Jews and Christians have been neighbors, living in peace on this land!

IT NEVER ENDS! THIS IS NOT A POLITICAL ISSUE! IT'S A RELIGIOUS AND WILL LAST TILL ARMAGEDDON

I'M A PALESTINIAN REFUGEE GUYS AND MY LIFE IS SO FUCKING MISERABLE, I'VE NEVER SEEN MY HOMELAND FOR EVEN ONCE, SINCE I WAS BORN I'M A FOREIGNER WHENEVER I GO WHEREVER I LIVE, THE ONE WITH NO IDENTITY!

Written by 0rpheus on 19.11.2010 at 22:57

Is it reasonable or right to create a country to gather a group of the same religion?!
Imagine if Muslims or Christians want to do the same!

This land is for those people who used to live there, whatever was their religion!
Muslims, Jews and Christians have been neighbors, living in peace on this land!

IT NEVER ENDS! THIS IS NOT A POLITICAL ISSUE! IT'S A RELIGIOUS AND WILL LAST TILL ARMAGEDDON

I'M A PALESTINIAN REFUGEE GUYS AND MY LIFE IS SO FUCKING MISERABLE, I'VE NEVER SEEN MY HOMELAND FOR EVEN ONCE, SINCE I WAS BORN I'M A FOREIGNER WHENEVER I GO WHEREVER I LIVE, THE ONE WITH NO IDENTITY!

It's unreasonable, but it is a right for any country to make its constitution to be based on religious so long as the vote was conducted democratically. What do you mean what if Christians and Muslims did the same thing? How many Arabic countries have Sharia Allah instilled in them? I can't tell you how many times I've heard people been arrested or penalized for saying that "Islam is fake" or whatever. Israel is not the only country that bases its laws on religion, or ethnicity - nor was it the first. People seem to forget that.

I truely am sorry for your disposition being a refugee. My father was a refugee from the American occupation in Japan and I myself grew up in the Palestinian territories. But you also need to understand that what happened to the refugees isn't solely Israel's fault. Black September in Jordan, the situation in Lebanon - the Palestinians seem to get the shorter end of the stick even if they are in their own land by their ruling governments who are notorious. Hopefully the reformed PLO will help, I think it will. Honestly, I'd rather see Palestine become a Western puppet state than to have it the way it was during and after the Intifada.

Written by 0rpheus on 19.11.2010 at 22:57

Written by Sunioj on 19.11.2010 at 23:14

It's unreasonable, but it is a right for any country to make its constitution to be based on religious so long as the vote was conducted democratically.

Are you talking about how did Israel come to this world? Are you kidding me?! Do you mean that people who used to live there that time have chosen this and voted under slogan of democracy?!
What do you say is right but it has nothing to do with the story of Israel.

Quote:

Written by 0rpheus on 19.11.2010 at 23:26

It's unreasonable, but it is a right for any country to make its constitution to be based on religious so long as the vote was conducted democratically.

Are you talking about how did Israel come to this world? Are you kidding me?! Do you mean that people who used to live there that time have chosen this and voted under slogan of democracy?!
What do you say is right but it has nothing to do with the story of Israel.

You asked a question about countries in general, how if its right for them to harbor a constitution based on religion or ethnicity. I said it is right if its done democratically. And it totally has to do with Israel, because the majority of the people in that country request laws that seem "undemocratic" to minorities like Christians, Armenians, Muslims, Druze, etc. (marriages, kosher laws, voting rights, residency) It might not be right to us, but we have no choice to live under them if we live in that country. Sucks, but thats life. That's what happens when you are a minority.

As for the things that were not done by vote such as mass exodus, land grabbing etc. I don't necessarily agree with them because they resulted in a lot of suffering. Under the fog of war, a lot of things happened which make people point fingers at each other for blame. It's in the past, we can't do anything about it anymore. But, I do support a state of Israel as much as I support a state for the Palestinians. That's all I'm going to say. Israel may have done some fucked up things, but goddamn. So has the Palestinian govt. Both are at fault in my eyes. My pity goes to the people stuck in between, the civilians and refugess.

Written by Sunioj on 19.11.2010 at 23:41

I do support a state of Israel as much as I support a state for the Palestinians. That's all I'm going to say. Israel may have done some fucked up things, but goddamn. So has the Palestinian govt. Both are at fault in my eyes. My pity goes to the people stuck in between, the civilians and refugess.

Yes it's all wrong from the beginning, imagine if there's no Israel nor Palestine and we people of that land living in peace as we did before. Imagine if it was called The Holy Land instead of the notion of separated states of today. I would blame the UK and the Ottomans I blame the world.

Written by 0rpheus on 20.11.2010 at 00:03

Written by Sunioj on 19.11.2010 at 23:41

I do support a state of Israel as much as I support a state for the Palestinians. That's all I'm going to say. Israel may have done some fucked up things, but goddamn. So has the Palestinian govt. Both are at fault in my eyes. My pity goes to the people stuck in between, the civilians and refugess.

Yes it's all wrong from the beginning, imagine if there's no Israel nor Palestine and we people of that land living in peace as we did before. Imagine if it was called The Holy Land instead of the notion of separated states of today. I would blame the UK and the Ottomans I blame the world.

I completely agree with you, the situation is so complex and involving so many countries that its almost unrealistic just to lay blame on one party. Colonization by the Western world on Asia and many places has left either unrepairable scars or benefits.

We should be praying that the situation gets resolved. I think it will get better... with each generation there comes more accountability and education I think helps people on both sides understand the problem more. I can't tell you how much I want to see the village I grew up be free in the sense that they will be able to visit Jerusalem and pray there.

Now, while you two are discussing this in a civilized manner ... a pissed-off Israeli is trying too hard not to scream at you both: "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PALESTINE !!"

lol, yeah they say that over and over as if to convince themselves.

Written by Zombie on 20.11.2010 at 07:26

Now, while you two are discussing this in a civilized manner ... a pissed-off Israeli is trying too hard not to scream at you both: "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PALESTINE !!"

lol, yeah they say that over and over as if to convince themselves.

There probably is. But you know what? Most secular Israelis actually do support the existance of a Palestinian state. It's mainly the ultra-religious folks who would be extreme enough to say something like that. Ya know, the same people who have lived abroad for most of their life, make aaliyah (thinking they know everything about the conflict), have 10 children and move to a rural settlements, armed to the teeth withs Uzis and M4s. Among the secular Israelis I know, these type of people are know to be.. excuse my french... fucking crazy?

You'd be surprised at the distaste that alot of Israelis have for them... we even have a derogatory name for that. It's called "Dosim". Israeli culture has an identity problem, on the one side you have a thriving, intelluctual class of hard working citizens who just want this conflict to end like anyone in the world, and on the other hand you have Dosim. The people I blame for most of the problems when it comes to the settement issues.

For the most part, I know more Israelis that support a Palestinian state than Palestinians doing the same for Israel. But I think it has to do with most Palestinians isolation, lack of contact with other cultures and level of education in the Palestinian system. Not neccessarily their fault. Hell, most Palestinians in my village I know haven't even had a conversation with an Israeli... its pretty hard to understand the other side if you're never exposed to it.

Of course the system never reflect the whole folks' viewpoint. There is some open-minded humans!

That reminds me, there are actually jewish groups that oppose the state of Israel named "Jews against Israel", and they believe that god's promise of Israel, the promised land, should be fulfilled in heaven not on earth, and that the 'earthly' state of Israel is heresy, and they'd rather go to the other 'heavenly' Israel.