Written by Norm on 17.06.2009 at 17:33

No, because I dress the same as all the non-metalheads around me...

Metal cannot just be music. Even when I put my strong passion toward Metal aside here for a second. I can feel the love and respect for Metal. Musically, it goes to a level that no other genre has been able to reach, but that's not important when it comes to the term of a Sub culture. Please don't compare Metal to pop, pop is music made for the sole purpose of gaining money and popularity, Tr00 Metal is about the love, respect, and passion for music.

You must be joking: If you do not believe Metal is a sub-culture, then burn all your albums. Burn all of your rare LPs. Don't even get excited for upcoming shows. You're not even allowed to have a favorite band anymore. Look at metalheads, they are the most passionate people.

If you go to a pop-artist's concert, you're going to be paying a ton of money- and the fans there don't get as crazy as at a metal show. Personally, my favorite band is playing a show about a hundred miles away, and I'm dropping everything to go. Cost doesn't matter. (Although you will notice that tr00 metal shows are a hell of a lot cheaper to get into than a pop-concert) Plans don't matter. Nothing else matters except the metal. Maybe you don't feel this way, maybe you're not a true metalhead.

But next time you're at a show, and the band comes on stage. Watch the crowd. See how the excitement is more than you'll ever see anywhere else. So many people love and respect the music, and we have, yes, invented a culture for it. Headbanging? Buying CD's and band shirts? Moshing, going to shows? That's all culture.

man relax... your first post was like a post of some metaleads who wear only black and then say: i am fucking great cause i wear black and so i am a metal head.

but believe me, i have a great passion for metal. i love it and really i wanna keep on listening to it for the rest of my life cause here i found what i was looking for. it's just that imo all music styles are most of all music. i dont care about the money or anyhting else. surely pop isn't that quallitative as metal i'd be crazy if i said that but in my ears it's all music. that's what i was trying to say. you know i listen 3 years to metal and have only 1 friend listening also to it. if i was a fucking pussy i couldn't stand. so just relax...

Metal has its own culture. But it is the way of living, not corpse paint, long hair, being dressed in black etc.

Subcultures are usually associated with a dress-style. Think about the hippies and the punks. So, it does make sense to think about what people are wearing as well. Although that's just a part of the big puzzle.

Written by Metalhead2 on 23.06.2009 at 17:10

Metal has its own culture. But it is the way of living, not corpse paint, long hair, being dressed in black etc.

Please do expand on this. describe this way of living and how it differs from the regular society. preferably in your own words, rather than cutting/pasting some article from the other website you frequent.

please cite examples from your life as well.

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preferably in your own words, rather than cutting/pasting some article from the other website you frequent.

Why? (sorry for the short post)

Written by Metalhead2 on 23.06.2009 at 21:56

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preferably in your own words, rather than cutting/pasting some article from the other website you frequent.

Why? (sorry for the short post)

Ahhh...'cause it if you don't cite your source it means you're stealing someone else's ideas. And that makes you a poser.

Dane pretty much nailed it.

any fool can vomit up opinions they've consumed elsewhere. the difference between one thinking one is smart and one actually being smart is the ability to process ideas and formulate their own opinions about said ideas.

i'm eager to hear YOUR ideas on this subject, seeing as YOU called it a way of living.

if you feel that way, YOU must have some original ideas of your own bouncing around that noggin of yours.

from my standpoint, outside of perhaps Wolves In The Throne Room, i really don't see metalheads differentiating too terribly much from the rest of society in how they go about things, only their choice in entertainment is different.

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i'm eager to hear YOUR ideas on this subject, seeing as YOU called it a way of living.

No, you just want to accuse me of lacking something you were lacking. If you can't understand something it doesn't mean that it sucks.

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i'm eager to hear YOUR ideas on this subject, seeing as YOU called it a way of living.

If I tell you that my way of living is rejecting everything negative, will it help? It just happens that most people do negative things. I don't reject them because they are popular and because I want to be diferent but because they suck. Watching TV, shopping 24/7, getting drunk, listening to Opeth...

I suck because I listen to Opeth? That's new

Written by Metalhead2 on 23.06.2009 at 22:31

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i'm eager to hear YOUR ideas on this subject, seeing as YOU called it a way of living.

No, you just want to accuse me of lacking something you were lacking. If you can't understand something it doesn't mean that it sucks.

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i'm eager to hear YOUR ideas on this subject, seeing as YOU called it a way of living.

If I tell you that my way of living is rejecting everything negative, will it help? It just happens that most people do negative things. I don't reject them because they are popular and because I want to be diferent but because they suck. Watching TV, shopping 24/7, getting drunk, listening to Opeth...

thanks for guessing my motives, however you were way off. i really could not possibly care less if you think something in my life is lacking. i just wanted to see if YOU actually had anything interesting to say yourself, rather than just shitting out ideas copied from ANUS.

And you "reject everything negative" - nice and vague.

in short, you really don't have an answer. listing all the stuff you don't do is not shedding any light on what you do do, or what truly makes you different. and, of course, that's just you... not some "metal" lifestyle."

Written by BloodTears on 23.06.2009 at 22:35

I suck because I listen to Opeth? That's new

HA! Well I suck even more than you since I listen to Opeth on vinyl!

Written by Metalhead2 on 23.06.2009 at 22:31

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i'm eager to hear YOUR ideas on this subject, seeing as YOU called it a way of living.

No, you just want to accuse me of lacking something you were lacking. If you can't understand something it doesn't mean that it sucks.

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i'm eager to hear YOUR ideas on this subject, seeing as YOU called it a way of living.

If I tell you that my way of living is rejecting everything negative, will it help? It just happens that most people do negative things. I don't reject them because they are popular and because I want to be diferent but because they suck. Watching TV, shopping 24/7, getting drunk, listening to Opeth...

so also you don't smoke, don't do drugs and don't sit infront of the pc for many hours right???

Earlier in this thread, I stated metal is obviously a sub-culture. Since then, I'v checked my facts on how a sub-culture is usually defined in anthropology, and I must say I was probably wrong. There is certainly a metal culture, but not all culture is sub-culture.

I assumed that choice of entertainment, and taking part in the metal culture would enough to make it a sub-culture. (I argued that by posting on MetalStorm, you're taking part in the metal sub-culture.) That doesn't meet the usual criteria, though. Metal isn't a distinct phenomenon seperate from mainstream culture. Musical trends rarely are. Punk was, perhaps, and so was hip-hop. Maybe, just maybe, there has been a localized metal subculture at some point in time (such as the Norwegian black metal scene in the 90s), but it's never been wide-spread before becoming part of mainstream culture.

There is no metal way of life, no common metal ideology, no mission statement, no political agenda, not even typical hobbies or activities outside the music itself.


Metalhead2, I don't think BitterCold had any unreasonable, hostile demands. If you think there is a metal way of life that makes it a sub-culture, do describe it. But remember that an individual person's ideology and way of life does not make it a sub-culture. Just because you avoid "negative things" and listen to metal, doesn't make metal a sub-culture. Especially so, because it's not an idea shared by other metalheads. If you want to prove that metal is a sub-culture of its own, you have to be able to point out activities, stylistic traits, ideology, mannerism or some social factors that all metalheads share.

It's easy to confuse metal for a subculture, because the things in common between metalheads are also things that members of a sub-culture share with eachother: particularly musical taste, fashion and some symbolism. These are just some visible signs of a sub-culture and not enough to define it.

In the end, metal is nothing but a musical style and, to a lesser extent, a fashion.

Written by IronAngel on 23.06.2009 at 23:55

There is no metal way of life, no common metal ideology, no mission statement, no political agenda, not even typical hobbies or activities outside the music itself.

That's both true and false, I think. Because there not one think of each of these, but many.
Examples
- Way of life: you can be a proponent of the sex drugs and rock'n roll lifestyle, be grim and necro and satanist and hating people (some of those who tried went to jail, strangely), or have no special lifestyle whatsoever.
- political agenda: You could globally say there are three (and that's debatable): extreme left wing (Napalm Death, Misery Index...), extreme right wing (NSBM), and 'don't care/fuck politics' (a lot).

I don't think metal is a subculture in itself, at least in a theoretical sense. But I do however think there is a 'metal culture'. It does have some sub-subcultures in it, genereally based on style), most of the metalheads are awesomely proud of the music they listen, and I found a common point between all metalheads: we do like to argument about bands, explaining, sometimes with tiny details, why band X is better than band Y and my tastes are better and this band sucks aso... It doesn't matter if we do it nicely or not, but we are proud and argumentative about metal.

Written by Darkside Momo on 24.06.2009 at 00:10

That's both true and false, I think. Because there not one think of each of these, but many.
Examples
- Way of life: you can be a proponent of the sex drugs and rock'n roll lifestyle, be grim and necro and satanist and hating people (some of those who tried went to jail, strangely), or have no special lifestyle whatsoever.
- political agenda: You could globally say there are three (and that's debatable): extreme left wing (Napalm Death, Misery Index...), extreme right wing (NSBM), and 'don't care/fuck politics' (a lot).

I don't think metal is a subculture in itself, at least in a theoretical sense. But I do however think there is a 'metal culture'. It does have some sub-subcultures in it, genereally based on style), most of the metalheads are awesomely proud of the music they listen, and I found a common point between all metalheads: we do like to argument about bands, explaining, sometimes with tiny details, why band X is better than band Y and my tastes are better and this band sucks aso... It doesn't matter if we do it nicely or not, but we are proud and argumentative about metal.

what we need are more libertarian metal bands!

i don't think it's a subculture - i think collectively we are fans of a form of entertainment which gives us a slightly different perspective than non-fans... the only really shared ideology is love of a form of musical expression. it's one commonality stretching over a wide variety of people with vastly different beliefs.

@Darkside: Well, what you said is true but a sub-culture needs to be distinct, unified and comprehensive.

There's metal culture, for sure. I use "culture" in a very loose sense of the word, as any kind of human social/creative activity. It is easy to identify certain activities, musical details or appearances as typical to metal. There are many traits that appear often in metal culture. Many of them are stereotypes that aren't actually shared by lots of fans, while others are quite common. (Long hair and a sense of superiority being two such things common among metalheads.) The fact that so many differing models exist, and not one of them is shared by -all- or even the majority of metalheads, though, means that it is not a sub-culture.


I, for one, am relatively interested in politics and I'm a level-headed leftish-centrist (as far as Finland's political map is concerned). My lifestyle is relatively normal, though I like to think of myself as somewhat intellectual and someone who has a fine taste for entertainment. I like to go shopping for clothes. I love reading books on history, philosophy, science as well as fiction. I go to the movies like anyone; though I prefer somewhat more serious drama like Wong-Kar Wai, I saw the blockbuster X-Men Origins: Wolverine most recently. I will soon go study theology for fun, and see where to go from there. I like to go to museums, parties and all kinds of concerts, from metal to electro-pop. I have a mixed bag of friends, from dancers to electricians. I love to write and role-play. I don't have a passion for going to metalhead gatherings or other metal events to mingle with the (supposedly) like-minded, apart from interesting concerts.

The above is an unlikely profile for a representative of a sub-culture. Hey, maybe there could be a sub-culture like that, but it certainly wouldn't be the metal sub-culture sketched above. Metal is such a large and diverse collection of musical styles, stereotypes, ridicilous ideologies and smart opinions, clothing fashions, political agendas, lyrical themes and visual symbolism that it's almost impossible to find any common nominator between all metal. And even if you find that nominator, it's not enough to define a sub-culture on its own.


If going to concerts and discussing music, or the lyrical themes and image of certain bands were enough to define a sub-culture, then we'd have sub-cultures all around us. Metal isn't unique in this regard, we just know it best. You will find just as much dedication and enthusiasm in indie circles, among die-hard hip-hoppers, or within the clubbing scene. And yes, there are even large quantities of pop fans like that, even if it's not visible in the media. So while I agree with what you said about metal (and you didn't even label it an actual sub-culture), I think it's important to emphasize that metal isn't so very special, as a phenomenon. Artistically it's special (to us) because we think it's amazing music, but anthropologically it's a relatively conformist, indistinct part of mainstream culture.

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i just wanted to see if YOU actually had anything interesting to say yourself, rather than just shitting out ideas copied from ANUS.

2+2=4. Those who agree are just copying the ideas from teachers. They don't think with their own head.

Logical and empiric facts are one thing, formulating comprehensive interpretations and opinions based on them is quite another. What if, instead of the sarcasm, you actually elaborated on your ideas of a metal way of life and such a sub-culture? That's the kind of argumentation a forum is meant for; nobody cares about other people's opinions, but rather the reasons behind those opinions.

Metal is music. Choosing to dress in a certain way and socialise at certain places is something completely separate.

METAL IS A FUCKING RELIGION ESPECIALLY BLACK METAL IF YOU DONT LISTEN TO BLACK METAL YOUR RETARTED11111111

ok now that that is cleared up, metal is mostly music.. it's just a little bit of a subculture, like a group of people who share similar interests and shit(like skaters, skinheads etc), but it's not a cult or something

Written by -tom- on 24.06.2009 at 12:11

Metal is music. Choosing to dress in a certain way and socialise at certain places is something completely separate.

Not really. It is very much connected to the music. There's a statistical correlation, and some causality, but it's not inevitable.

Or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you've seen a long-haired guy, wearing a leather jacket and a Destruction T-shirt hanging out at a metal bar just for fun, not that he actually listens to the music?

Written by Metalhead2 on 24.06.2009 at 09:26

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i just wanted to see if YOU actually had anything interesting to say yourself, rather than just shitting out ideas copied from ANUS.

2+2=4. Those who agree are just copying the ideas from teachers. They don't think with their own head.

in short, you have nothing.

oh wait, is your metal lifestyle "making music on synth sometimes when I am bored a bit just to please myself " ...

but thanks for showing up and trying to play uberelitist.

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in short, you have nothing.

And what do you have? Don't copy the ideas because I can not understand them? That is what you have?

Written by Metalhead2 on 24.06.2009 at 09:26

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i just wanted to see if YOU actually had anything interesting to say yourself, rather than just shitting out ideas copied from ANUS.

2+2=4. Those who agree are just copying the ideas from teachers. They don't think with their own head.

nope, sorry, that is as wrong as it gets.

Http://www.nationaldayofslayer.org/slayer/experts

The International Day of Slayer guys asked some academics and a journalist about this... interesting conclusions.

Written by Metalhead2 on 24.06.2009 at 22:16

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in short, you have nothing.

And what do you have? Don't copy the ideas because I can not understand them? That is what you have?

you have nothing. you have posted nothing. you only claim what you don't do.

i am not the one claiming that "metal is it's own lifestyle" nor am i the one saying that i live some lifestyle that defies convention.

you did, but cannot back it up with anything, particularly anything that you have to write yourself... i question if you have an original idea in your head. i don't think you do. i think you are an empty vessel with absolutely nothing to offer whatsoever.

when asked for your own ideas, showing you have the ability to rub two braincells together beyond "Cntl+C" and "Cntl+V" you have nothing to offer and instead just tapdance your way around the questions i pose and spout meaningless one line snippets. so either you cannot answer the question because you don't have an answer or you cannot answer the question because this entire front you've attempted to put up around yourself is completely fraudulent. My guess is it's a combo of both.

but hey, at least another anusite popped by to quote another article for you! how sweet.

in the mean time, i've hired Helga here to accompany your tapdancing with her accordion....

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you did, but cannot back it up with anything, particularly anything that you have to write yourself...

Please explain why it is important to come with something written by yourself? It is just like saying: "you can't listen to this or that, you can only listen to the music made by yourself"

Written by BloodTears on 23.06.2009 at 17:31
Subcultures are usually associated with a dress-style.

I don't agree. They're associated with a values system and a series of behaviors.

For example, hackers.

Written by Conservationist on 24.06.2009 at 23:17

Http://www.nationaldayofslayer.org/slayer/experts

The International Day of Slayer guys asked some academics and a journalist about this... interesting conclusions.

Meh. Mediocre reading. That Martin Popoff guy seems rather clueless. I particularly facepalmed at the following quote:

"-- and you'd have this weird little village of metalheads. Crazy idea. And then would that get into their genetics? How about the cats and dogs? Weird. I've got to have a quiet lie down." And his last reply is just priceless!

They had some bright ideas, but no groundbreaking observations, really.

As I have no books to offer you online, I guess Wikipedia's brief explanation of what a sub-culture is should help Metalhead2 and others clarify their view on metal as a sub-culture.


And Metalhead2, you don't have to provide your own research and examples of metal as a sub-culture, really. Let others whine. But if you make such a claim, it would be appropriate to provide some material to support it. Anything, be it your own or someone else's. The problem with quoting others, of course, is that you subscribe to their views that might actually be rather stupid.

Written by Conservationist on 25.06.2009 at 10:57

Written by BloodTears on 23.06.2009 at 17:31
Subcultures are usually associated with a dress-style.

I don't agree. They're associated with a values system and a series of behaviors.

For example, hackers.

When I think about subcultures I usually see a dress-code there. I gave examples of that. I didn't say it was just about that, but that's certainly a tendency.

There might be other subcultures who are not defined by that at all too.