Yes, fashion is definetely an extremely common characteristic of sub-cultures. It is not a defining factor, and it can be misleading as sub-culture fashion becomes adopted into the mainstream (see: punk, hip-hop), but it's a clear tell-tale sign.

Written by Metalhead2 on 25.06.2009 at 10:55

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you did, but cannot back it up with anything, particularly anything that you have to write yourself...

Please explain why it is important to come with something written by yourself? It is just like saying: "you can't listen to this or that, you can only listen to the music made by yourself"

OK, let me make this very simple. I pose two questions to you which I would like you to define in your own words. You may quote a sentence or two from a legitimate source but need to cite it.

Question #1: What is a culture and sub-culture?

Question #2: Based on your answer to question #1, does Heavy Metal fit this, and why so?

Written by Metalhead2 on 25.06.2009 at 10:55

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you did, but cannot back it up with anything, particularly anything that you have to write yourself...

Please explain why it is important to come with something written by yourself? It is just like saying: "you can't listen to this or that, you can only listen to the music made by yourself"

I am asking you to prove you actually have the ability to think for yourself. cutting and pasting something someone else wrote shows absolutely zero critical thinking skills on your part. if you live a "metal lifestyle" you should sure as hell be able to put into words how you live your life and how it is different because of metal.

if you cannot grasp the simplicity of that request, i give up. you are a fucking moron who simply quotes someone else's stuff to make yourself seem more intelligent than you are.

a sheep in wolf's clothing, if you will.

Written by BitterCOld on 25.06.2009 at 20:14

if you cannot grasp the simplicity of that request, i give up. you are a fucking moron who simply quotes someone else's stuff to make yourself seem more intelligent than you are.

btw, if I was a mod I would immediately lock every thread that talks about this.

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you are a fucking moron who simply quotes someone else's stuff to make yourself seem more intelligent than you are.

People c/p ideas because they agree with them. You would do the same if you were mentally capable of understanding them (no offense, I am just saying something that is obvious to me)

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I am asking you to prove you actually have the ability to think for yourself.

No, you are trying to accuse me of lacking what you were lacking. To me, it is obvious that metal is a subculture and I have never spent any time explaining something obvious to anybody.

Written by Metalhead2 on 25.06.2009 at 21:38

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you are a fucking moron who simply quotes someone else's stuff to make yourself seem more intelligent than you are.

People c/p ideas because they agree with them. You would do the same if you were mentally capable of understanding them (no offense, I am just saying something that is obvious to me)

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I am asking you to prove you actually have the ability to think for yourself.

No, you are trying to accuse me of lacking what you were lacking. To me, it is obvious that metal is a subculture and I have never spent any time explaining something obvious to anybody.

people cut and paste them because they've read them... if they actually understand them, the individual should be capable of processing the information and re-submitting it in their own words as they they have internalized and processed it, and formulated their own further opinions and observances.

and as I have previously stated, i could not possibly care less if you think anything is lacking in my life. i asked for your description of your "metal lifestyle" because you indicated you had one. i want to know what it is not because i want to copy it, but because i honestly doubt you really do anything any different or better than anyone else. you are every bit as fucking boring and mundane as the rest of us.

"i have never spent any time explaining something obvious to anybody"

because you CANNOT explain it.

this thread has made it abundantly clear you are a poser. a sheep in wolf's clothing trying to act out all "elitist" and superior, but anyone reading this thread can clearly see the act for what it is... an act.

the only thing worse than a smug intellectual is an arrogant buffoon who thinks of themself as an intellectual.

go play your synth... because it pleases you.

lmfao.

Well, to be fair, it's fine to quote someone else if you think it's correct. But that means you actually have to think it's correct, and any criticism aimed at the original text will be aimed at your opinion as well: because they're supposedly identical. I think the whole individualism trend and thinking for yourself is a tad over-rated: there's nothing wrong with accepting other people's ideas or using some of their argumentation to support your own. That's how culture builds on itself and creates something new. And on the other hand, you don't have to re-invent the wheel. Who thought something doesn't matter as much as what it was that was thought of.

Metalhead2, can you please drop the catfight with Bitter and, if you continue to have the opinion you had a few posts back, explain your view more thoroughly to us? Dane's questions are rather simple, and I'm genuinely interested in what you have to say.

All I can see in the last few posts is jabs that avoid the issue back and forth, and that's pretty embarassing. When you want to humiliate someone and get back at him, nothing's more effective than staying on the matter at hand and showing your argument is superior. That's what us smug intellectuals do.

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f they actually understand them, the individual should be capable of processing the information and re-submitting it in their own words as they they have internalized and processed it,

I suck at explaining, when people IRL ask me to explain something I usually fail, that is why I am never going to be a teacher.

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Well, to be fair, it's fine to quote someone else if you think it's correct. But that means you actually have to think it's correct, and any criticism aimed at the original text will be aimed at your opinion as well: because they're supposedly identical. I think the whole individualism trend and thinking for yourself is a tad over-rated: there's nothing wrong with accepting other people's ideas or using some of their argumentation to support your own. That's how culture builds on itself and creates something new. And on the other hand, you don't have to re-invent the wheel. Who thought something doesn't matter as much as what it was that was thought of.

Agreed. For example, it is (relatively) easy to understand Beethoven's music but to be a Beethoven you must be a genius. It is (relatively, again) easy to understand Nietzsche's philosophy but in order to write such a books you can't be a random intelligent guy. This individualism is just like telling "every kid in school must discover all maths without using any books".

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All I can see in the last few posts is jabs that avoid the issue back and forth, and that's pretty embarassing.

More of a TV than a debate.

Would still be nice to actually see those quotes that elaborate your view. We've all wandered quite far from the subject, so it's probably best that we get back to discussing metal as a subculture and how it manifests as a lifestyle, before one of them angry mods come stomping us. Sooo.. what kind of a metal way of life do you lead? Have you noticed that others lead a similar way of life, too?

Written by Metalhead2 on 26.06.2009 at 09:54

I suck at explaining, when people IRL ask me to explain something I usually fail, that is why I am never going to be a teacher.

Even if you 'suck' at trying to explain it, would you at least try? For a very long time I was not skilled at writing but I kept on plugging away at it. My problem seemed to be similar to yours; transferring ideas from my head to the paper. Still I kept on trying and eventually learned tips and tricks to help me out. You can do the same thing as well. Remember there was a time period where I wouldn't have been able to write an intelligent and well thought out post for this forum but I worked hard and was able to produce The Tolkien-Zeppelin Connection article for Metal Storm.

So would you please at least try? Here is what I would suggest you do:

First, figure out what you want to say. In this case, explaining you view that Heavy Metal is more than just music but also a culture/sub culture.

Second make sure all your terms are being defined. What is a culture? What is a sub culture? If your definition is different than mine about what a culture is then we can never proceed to the query on Metal. It is fine for you to quote a scientist, historian, anthropologist, etc with a sentence or two to help get you started, but please don't post a page from Wikipedia.

Once you have explained your definition for culture you can then begin enlightening us as to why you think Metal fits with your meaning of culture. When you begin to write this, I'd recommend making a bunch of bullet points with all your ideas. Don't worry if they are not complete sentences, or even ideas, just jot down anything. Once you have all your ideas, begin to organize them and strengthen them.

After that you should have a bunch of sentences reflecting your own ideas, and hopefully have some good examples in there as well, which will allow you to put together a statement for us here.

I hope that makes things clearer and if you need any help, please, feel free to ask for it.

I'm going to start by quoting wikipedia which I think pretty much nails the idea of this "culture" that we are talking about here:

"the set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes an institution, organization or group"

Imo, this is pretty much the definition of both culture and sub-culture in the subject that we are talking here. The difference between them is that the sub-culture is smaller and a part of a determined culture.

In our culture (and I'm probably talking to all the people in this forum), we work to gain money so that we can pay for the things we think are necessary to live. We also live in a society with laws, governaments, politics, presidents, and most of our life live by their rules (many times trying to escape them or avoid them ^^'). Most of us go to school, learn something, leave, get work, get married, buy a house, have kids, work, retires, and dies (some people may skip some things I've said but it's pretty much that).

This is our culture.

The main differences are in what we wear, what we say, what we like and what we do, and that's why cultures change when you change country for example. But besides our obviously differences we are all a part of this culture.


Now, on-topic issue: is it metal really a sub-culture?

Is it? We are millions all over the globe, we listen to the same type of music, we wear similar clothes.. and what else? Do we have the same goals? Do we have the same attitudes? Do we even have the same values? I don't think so. We do not live under metal "rules", we simply are a bunch of many people who enjoys listening to it.

Let's make some stupid relations to prove my point:
if let's say 30% of the world loves to watch TV, would we say that TV is a subculture? No.
if 3% of the world plays World of Warcraft, would we say that WoW is a subculture? No.
if 10% of the world likes to listen do metal, would we say that metal is a subculture? My opinion is no.


To conclude, I'm making my point considering that a culture is so much more than a bunch of people who likes the same type of music or the same type of food. You may all consider this to be a bunch of bullshit, but it's just how I think and feel free to criticize it.

Written by Metalhead2 on 26.06.2009 at 09:54

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f they actually understand them, the individual should be capable of processing the information and re-submitting it in their own words as they they have internalized and processed it,

I suck at explaining, when people IRL ask me to explain something I usually fail, that is why I am never going to be a teacher.

i would think that you should still be able to explain the things you DO in your life - as part of your metal subculture and way of life.

i'm not asking you to define subcultures in general, the metal one specifically, and lay out a manifesto for me. i'm simply asking that since you tell us what you do.

Written by IronAngel on 24.06.2009 at 13:28

Not really. It is very much connected to the music. There's a statistical correlation, and some causality, but it's not inevitable.

Or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you've seen a long-haired guy, wearing a leather jacket and a Destruction T-shirt hanging out at a metal bar just for fun, not that he actually listens to the music?

Listening to metal doesn't require you to dress in a particular way. If you like metal and wear metal shirts and have long hair then that's a fashion choice based based on your music taste which is pretty stupid really.

Of course it's not a requirement - living in the western, Christian-influenced culture doesn't mean you have to celebrate Christmas and Easter, either. Or you could choose to celebrate Christmas but not give any presents. Does that mean it's not culture, and that these individual details are unrelated, because it's not compulsory to take part in all of them?

In fact, it's quite ironic that one would evaluate culture based on requirements. After all, is culture not something that you specifically don't have to do? It's something voluntary, a result of human creativity and free will.

The very fact that you can make the connection between long hair, band shirts and jeans, and metal music, is a testimony to the fact that there is a culture surrounding metal, that these things are connected. It's undeniable, and you just misunderstand the point, or the definition of culture, if you disagree. Phenomena which appear together and are somehow related, usually signify some kind of a cultural connection.

The idea of metal itself, the brutality and darkness, creates a society underground

Written by [user id=36287] on 19.07.2009 at 05:18

The idea of metal itself, the brutality and darkness, creates a society underground

Care to explain how and why this happens?

If metal is a subculture don't you think it would eventualy rise up to the culture in real form???If metal is a subculture what makes us "Meta guys and girls" diffrent from all other people???Metal is a great form od expressing yourself it's not functional as samo form of culture beacuse doesn't have anything related to any culture in whole world.By that i mean religion,economy,society,education etc.My point here is that Metal is great music and i will never stop listening it,but when it comes in real life how many people would stand and defend The Metal or for example its own country or language or religion if it would be attacked???

I dont think the term culture can be stretched this far. Its got nothing to do with culture. Most people here would still do normal things in life that the majority does (eg, get a career, girl/boy friend, have a family, etc). There is no 'religion' behind metal, so no-one is restricted from anything and there are no laws. Metal, just as any form of music is a hobby, and only that!
Gangsters arent like they are because of rap... its because its who they are from what they were brought up in. Other people who listen to rap are not gangsters, because they dont grow up the same. Same with metalheads, each group of metalheads is as different to the next because they are different in the culture they were brought up in, some treat it as if they are a whole different type of people, some (like me) live a normal lifestyle. Thats as far as cultures go as far as im concerned.

Im half-cut, so bear with me if it didnt make sense, hard to write in words.

Written by Dark Cornatus on 21.08.2009 at 13:49

I dont think the term culture can be stretched this far. Its got nothing to do with culture. Most people here would still do normal things in life that the majority does (eg, get a career, girl/boy friend, have a family, etc). There is no 'religion' behind metal, so no-one is restricted from anything and there are no laws. Metal, just as any form of music is a hobby, and only that!
Gangsters arent like they are because of rap... its because its who they are from what they were brought up in. Other people who listen to rap are not gangsters, because they dont grow up the same. Same with metalheads, each group of metalheads is as different to the next because they are different in the culture they were brought up in, some treat it as if they are a whole different type of people, some (like me) live a normal lifestyle. Thats as far as cultures go as far as im concerned.

Im half-cut, so bear with me if it didnt make sense, hard to write in words.

I think your definition more closely resembles a society, rather then a culture. According to my understanding, a society is defined by rules and laws, while a culture is defined by ideas and values, that are followed under free will. This would indeed make metal a culture. Further more, I believe that the metal culture, or sub-culture if you will has at least two 'levels'. The first level is emotional; people who listen to metal because the aggression, hate, etc. match and reflects their own emotions. The second level is intellectual, people who listen to metal because it causes them to think, and cross examine every idea that passes through their head. From my experience most people reside somewhere between the two. It seems to me that most Metalstormers lean closer to the latter, however.

Written by SerratedSyringe on 10.12.2009 at 15:57

Written by Dark Cornatus on 21.08.2009 at 13:49

I dont think the term culture can be stretched this far. Its got nothing to do with culture. Most people here would still do normal things in life that the majority does (eg, get a career, girl/boy friend, have a family, etc). There is no 'religion' behind metal, so no-one is restricted from anything and there are no laws. Metal, just as any form of music is a hobby, and only that!
Gangsters arent like they are because of rap... its because its who they are from what they were brought up in. Other people who listen to rap are not gangsters, because they dont grow up the same. Same with metalheads, each group of metalheads is as different to the next because they are different in the culture they were brought up in, some treat it as if they are a whole different type of people, some (like me) live a normal lifestyle. Thats as far as cultures go as far as im concerned.

Im half-cut, so bear with me if it didnt make sense, hard to write in words.

I think your definition more closely resembles a society, rather then a culture. According to my understanding, a society is defined by rules and laws, while a culture is defined by ideas and values, that are followed under free will. This would indeed make metal a culture. Further more, I believe that the metal culture, or sub-culture if you will has at least two 'levels'. The first level is emotional; people who listen to metal because the aggression, hate, etc. match and reflects their own emotions. The second level is intellectual, people who listen to metal because it causes them to think, and cross examine every idea that passes through their head. From my experience most people reside somewhere between the two. It seems to me that most Metalstormers lean closer to the latter, however.

Yes it would seem you are right. Thanks for clearing that up. You make some valid points.

Written by Dark Cornatus on 11.12.2009 at 01:14

Written by SerratedSyringe on 10.12.2009 at 15:57

Written by Dark Cornatus on 21.08.2009 at 13:49

I dont think the term culture can be stretched this far. Its got nothing to do with culture. Most people here would still do normal things in life that the majority does (eg, get a career, girl/boy friend, have a family, etc). There is no 'religion' behind metal, so no-one is restricted from anything and there are no laws. Metal, just as any form of music is a hobby, and only that!
Gangsters arent like they are because of rap... its because its who they are from what they were brought up in. Other people who listen to rap are not gangsters, because they dont grow up the same. Same with metalheads, each group of metalheads is as different to the next because they are different in the culture they were brought up in, some treat it as if they are a whole different type of people, some (like me) live a normal lifestyle. Thats as far as cultures go as far as im concerned.

Im half-cut, so bear with me if it didnt make sense, hard to write in words.

I think your definition more closely resembles a society, rather then a culture. According to my understanding, a society is defined by rules and laws, while a culture is defined by ideas and values, that are followed under free will. This would indeed make metal a culture. Further more, I believe that the metal culture, or sub-culture if you will has at least two 'levels'. The first level is emotional; people who listen to metal because the aggression, hate, etc. match and reflects their own emotions. The second level is intellectual, people who listen to metal because it causes them to think, and cross examine every idea that passes through their head. From my experience most people reside somewhere between the two. It seems to me that most Metalstormers lean closer to the latter, however.

Yes it would seem you are right. Thanks for clearing that up. You make some valid points.

No problem