Marcel Hubregtse Grumpy Old Fuck ElitePosts: 40071 |
Written by LeKiwi on 04.10.2013 at 17:31
Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 04.10.2013 at 17:29
Even what one deems talent is a highly subjective matter. For one it already varies a lot from genre to genre.
Not at all. If the style is easy to perform, it requires little talent. Simple as that
that would mean only avantgarde jazz has talent in it
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Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal
Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.)
05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996
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Written by LeKiwi on 04.10.2013 at 01:43
Too much reverb in the vocal mix to hear what he actually sounds like :S
Yet you have Uneven Structure's vocalist on the list. By most definitions a very normal vocalist layered with effects and reverb. I like Uneven Structure but I would not cite the vocalist is a standout talent in any way. This itself highlights the weakness in your argument about talent being an objective viewpoint.
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LeKiwi High Fist Prog
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LeKiwiHigh Fist ProgPosts: 4038
Written by Erik M. on 04.10.2013 at 17:32
Even though it's not specifically in your description, you have mentioned multiple times that a vocalist needs to be versatile. But now you're basically indirectly saying that you don't think Patrick Walker is superior at his particular vocal style?
I've never stated that have I? I've not made a proper update in a long time. I'm at university. I have things to do. Patrick may or not see his presence on this list. If someone thinks I'm doing this list wrong or untimely they can do it themselves in all honesty.
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LeKiwi High Fist Prog
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LeKiwiHigh Fist ProgPosts: 4038
Written by Guest on 04.10.2013 at 17:34
Yet you have Uneven Structure's vocalist on the list. By most definitions a very normal vocalist layered with effects and reverb. I like Uneven Structure but I would not cite the vocalist is a standout talent in any way. This itself highlights the weakness in your argument about talent being an objective viewpoint.
Check out the song I linked for Uneven Structure halfway through where there are hardly any effects used other than the normal reverb most vocalists use. Even if I am unable to objectively decide which vocalists are talented, the fact remains that talent is objective. That being said, it's very possible that some of my list is subjective. I can't help being human
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Erik M.
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Written by LeKiwi on 04.10.2013 at 17:37
I've never stated that have I? I've not made a proper update in a long time. I'm at university. I have things to do. Patrick may or not see his presence on this list. If someone thinks I'm doing this list wrong or untimely they can do it themselves in all honesty.
You said "If the vocalist clearly superior at a particular vocal style then I'll add him, i.e. Stefan from Wolverine". Seeing as you haven't added and might never add Patrick Walker, it means you don't think he is great at his particular vocal style. And that right there would be totally baffling to me, since whether you like his vocals or not, he's clearly doing a great job in the vocal department. And yes, you said you might add him, but since you haven't done that by now means you're not convinced (yet) that he should be here. In the end it's your own choice of course, but then just change the name of the list into: "My Favourite Vocalists In Metal" or something like that.
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LeKiwi High Fist Prog
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LeKiwiHigh Fist ProgPosts: 4038
Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 04.10.2013 at 17:33
that would mean only avantgarde jazz has talent in it
Only? I'm sure there are other genres difficult to perform
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Written by LeKiwi on 04.10.2013 at 17:46
Check out the song I linked for Uneven Structure halfway through where there are hardly any effects used other than the normal reverb most vocalists use. Even if I am unable to objectively decide which vocalists are talented, the fact remains that talent is objective. That being said, it's very possible that some of my list is subjective. I can't help being human
If "talent" truly is objective, then perhaps you could please explain the existence of Britain / America's Got Talent.
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LeKiwi High Fist Prog
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LeKiwiHigh Fist ProgPosts: 4038
Written by Erik M. on 04.10.2013 at 17:47
You said "If the vocalist clearly superior at a particular vocal style then I'll add him, i.e. Stefan from Wolverine". Seeing as you haven't added and might never add Patrick Walker, it means you don't think he is great at his particular vocal style. And that right there would be totally baffling to me, since whether you like his vocals or not, he's clearly doing a great job in the vocal department. And yes, you said you might add him, but since you haven't done that by now means you're not convinced (yet) that he should be here. In the end it's your own choice of course, but then just change the name of the list into: "My Favourite Vocalists In Metal" or something like that.
You're not understanding. If I want to add someone to this list, I want to do it correctly, with the perfect song at hand or obtainable in the foreseeable future. In the case of Patrick, I much enjoyed his vocals on Warning, honestly. So please discontinue with the argument of "you dislike him." I'm busy, however when the time comes I'll sit down and properly check out several of the vocalists you mentioned since I know what I'm looking for in the songs.
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LeKiwi High Fist Prog
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Written by Guest on 04.10.2013 at 17:48
If "talent" truly is objective, then perhaps you could please explain the existence of Britain / America's Got Talent.
I can't, I don't watch it since it's a joke
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Erik M.
Posts: 3104 |
Written by LeKiwi on 04.10.2013 at 17:53
You're not understanding. If I want to add someone to this list, I want to do it correctly, with the perfect song at hand or obtainable in the foreseeable future. In the case of Patrick, I much enjoyed his vocals on Warning, honestly. So please discontinue with the argument of "you dislike him." I'm busy, however when the time comes I'll sit down and properly check out several of the vocalists you mentioned since I know what I'm looking for in the songs.
Well, the song "Watching From a Distance" by Warning might be the best choice for this list. I know you're searching for the "perfect" song, but sometimes a song like that simply doesn't exist.
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LeKiwi High Fist Prog
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LeKiwiHigh Fist ProgPosts: 4038
Written by Erik M. on 04.10.2013 at 17:58
Well, the song "Watching From a Distance" by Warning might be the best choice for this list. I know you're searching for the "perfect" song, but sometimes a song like that simply doesn't exist.
I'm very meticulous, and that is not a blessing. I WILL find "that" song In due time of course.
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qlacs "The Quaker"
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qlacs"The Quaker"Posts: 1537
Nothing else comes to mind during a quick check, good one, also good example songs
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mz
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mzPosts: 4774
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Giving my ears a rest from music.
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mz
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mzPosts: 4774
Regarding the subjective VS objective thing, I thing any list which include words like "great, talented, heavy, favorites, crushing etc" are subjected. What you consider as talent might be an extremely ordinary ability in other's point of view. Only list like "all metal albums published in 2008", "all male guitarist","drummers who can play on 300 bpm" are objective (hell even "metal" could be a subjective word).
The other thing is that I do not think that the creator of list is an expert in singing field. No offence to his intentions but I think that he, like most of the others on this site including myself, is just an avid, yet casual metal listener and noting more. In the other words, he does not have any standard to measure the level of talent of vocalists ( I do not personally believe in such thing, but he seems so)
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Giving my ears a rest from music.
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LeKiwi High Fist Prog
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Written by mz on 05.10.2013 at 01:24
Regarding the subjective VS objective thing, I thing any list which include words like "great, talented, heavy, favorites, crushing etc" are subjected. What you consider as talent might be an extremely ordinary ability in other's point of view. Only list like "all metal albums published in 2008", "all male guitarist","drummers who can play on 300 bpm" are objective (hell even "metal" could be a subjective word).
The other thing is that I do not think that the creator of list is an expert in singing field. No offence to his intentions but I think that he, like most of the others on this site including myself, is just an avid, yet casual metal listener and noting more. In the other words, he does not have any standard to measure the level of talent of vocalists ( I do not personally believe in such thing, but he seems so)
Although human error is likely to have influenced the selection of vocalists, the premise of this list is purely objective.
Talent, as I stated before, refers to a level of aptitude or skill which in high levels enables a person to excel at a particular activity (or activities) which proves arduous to imitate for those who lack such talent. It's as simple as that. This means, that although talent cannot be accurately measured as a value, it can be gauged relative to other levels of talent. Continuing to imitate several of these vocalists' styles, I can appreciate which ones are difficult to perform. I am not making a claim to supremacy, any vocalist who endeavors to excel can conclude the same.
Having made this list I have already acknowledged some faults in the process. Firstly, there are some excluded factors of which their inclusion would have made this a rather laborious effort. This includes the vocalist's ability to write aurally appealing vocal lines and likelihood that they aren't displaying the complete set of their abilities. Secondly, my genre of preference is progressive metal. While this limits the scope of my search for talented vocalists, this does not influence my judgement of talent, which is why I'm still open to suggestions. I have several vocalists here who belong to bands that I hardly know, don't enjoy, or even dislike.
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mz
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mzPosts: 4774
Written by LeKiwi on 05.10.2013 at 18:37
Written by mz on 05.10.2013 at 01:24
my comment
your explanation
But the fact that I consider wintersun's vocals both in extreme and clean parts very generic and annoying at some parts and not especial at all and you have put that guy in your list indicates that "talent" is an subjective term. IMO term like "talented guitarist" is much vaguer " technical guitarist" . Also, by your description, you indirectly suggest that the number of talented vocalists in progressive/avantgarde genre is more than all other genres together, which I do not agree at all. Finally, one can not have the same standard for judging vocal talent in progressive metal and let's say, doom or black metal.
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Giving my ears a rest from music.
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Marcel Hubregtse Grumpy Old Fuck ElitePosts: 40071 |
Quote:
This includes the vocalist's ability to write aurally appealing vocal lines
if ever there was something subjective it's this.
What are aurally appealing vocals lines to one person can be total aural hell to another.
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Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal
Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.)
05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996
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LeKiwi High Fist Prog
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LeKiwiHigh Fist ProgPosts: 4038
Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 05.10.2013 at 19:03
if ever there was something subjective it's this.
What are aurally appealing vocals lines to one person can be total aural hell to another.
Exactly. That's why that factor is excluded from the selection criteria.
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LeKiwi High Fist Prog
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LeKiwiHigh Fist ProgPosts: 4038
Written by mz on 05.10.2013 at 18:57
But the fact that I consider wintersun's vocals both in extreme and clean parts very generic and annoying at some parts and not especial at all and you have put that guy in your list indicates that "talent" is an subjective term. IMO term like "talented guitarist" is much vaguer " technical guitarist" . Also, by your description, you indirectly suggest that the number of talented vocalists in progressive/avantgarde genre is more than all other genres together, which I do not agree at all. Finally, one can not have the same standard for judging vocal talent in progressive metal and let's say, doom or black metal.
Annoying has nothing to do with the criteria, must I repeat that so frequently? Sure, his screams aren't impressive, they are simply average. However, he has an insane range which alone is pretty talented, whether you enjoy it or not matters not. He has so many different tones between screams and cleans at his disposal that at times it seems as if two or more vocalists have performed on a particular track. I would specifically link parts of songs for the sake of argument, but I can't be bothered at the moment, just listen to the song I have linked for Jari above and save me the trouble.
Additionally, you are making misguided inferences. I just stated in my previous reply to you that this list is limited in scope. I will explain it simply. I enjoy progressive metal. Most of the music I listen to is progressive metal. When I look for music, I tend to look for progressive metal. I tend to avoid genres like doom and black. Due to this, I will never discover all the talented vocalists in metal. Hence, the existence of the suggestion "scheme."
I dislike playing this condescending game, if you would still like to discuss anything about this list, PM me and we can settle it over there.
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mz
Posts: 4774 |
mzPosts: 4774
Written by LeKiwi on 05.10.2013 at 19:46
Annoying has nothing to do with the criteria, must I repeat that so frequently? Sure, his screams aren't impressive, they are simply average. However, he has an insane range which alone is pretty talented, whether you enjoy it or not matters not. He has so many different tones between screams and cleans at his disposal that at times it seems as if two or more vocalists have performed on a particular track. I would specifically link parts of songs for the sake of argument, but I can't be bothered at the moment, just listen to the song I have linked for Jari above and save me the trouble.
Additionally, you are making misguided inferences. I just stated in my previous reply to you that this list is limited in scope. I will explain it simply. I enjoy progressive metal. Most of the music I listen to is progressive metal. When I look for music, I tend to look for progressive metal. I tend to avoid genres like doom and black. Due to this, I will never discover all the talented vocalists in metal. Hence, the existence of the suggestion "scheme."
I dislike playing this condescending game, if you would still like to discuss anything about this list, PM me and we can settle it over there.
I am not going to bother with a PM discussion and do not leave any more comments here as well. Let's agree to disagree.
BTW, I am more than familiar with wintersun and do not need to check that song you've posted
[/end discussion]
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Giving my ears a rest from music.
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LeKiwi High Fist Prog
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LeKiwiHigh Fist ProgPosts: 4038
Written by mz on 05.10.2013 at 20:28
I am not going to bother with a PM discussion and do not leave any more comments here as well. Let's agree to disagree.
BTW, I am more than familiar with wintersun and do not need to check that song you've posted
[/end discussion]
There is no disagreement, all I have stated has yet to be refuted and still stands.
I also forgot to address what you wrote before.
Written by mz on 05.10.2013 at 18:57
Finally, one can not have the same standard for judging vocal talent in progressive metal and let's say, doom or black metal.
I have already noted that some vocalists may opt to restrain their talent, perhaps to blend with the music. Progressive metal hardly suffers from such a repression, if it exists, owing to the erratic and eccentric style allows for greater expression.
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mz
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mzPosts: 4774
Written by LeKiwi on 05.10.2013 at 21:00
There is no disagreement, all I have stated has yet to be refuted and still stands.
you can think so, but no one else believes in what you've stated here
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Giving my ears a rest from music.
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LeKiwi High Fist Prog
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LeKiwiHigh Fist ProgPosts: 4038
Written by mz on 05.10.2013 at 21:06
you can think so, but no one else believes in what you've stated here
No one? Five people (those who have discussed with me on this page) do not constitute the entire MS population
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mz
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mzPosts: 4774
Written by LeKiwi on 05.10.2013 at 21:14
Written by mz on 05.10.2013 at 21:06
you can think so, but no one else believes in what you've stated here
No one? Five people (those who have discussed with me on this page) do not constitute the entire MS population
fair enough, but at least you can say that a great portion of users who contributed in this list and had suggestions for you are very disappointed by your lack of interest in understanding obvious facts
again, I hope that this would be my last comment on this list. I will try not to answer your (probable) reply to this post
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Giving my ears a rest from music.
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LeKiwi High Fist Prog
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LeKiwiHigh Fist ProgPosts: 4038
Written by mz on 05.10.2013 at 22:16
fair enough, but at least you can say that a great portion of users who contributed in this list and had suggestions for you are very disappointed by your lack of interest in understanding obvious facts
I wish you to clarify what you meant by obvious facts. I'm a realist, so truth and hence facts tend not to escape me given the chance I've added several suggestions already; perhaps you're not keeping track of such activity, which I don't blame you for. But now it's made apparent so no escaping it
Edit: Just to be clear, 25% of my list is made up of user suggestions; as time goes on, the proportion will clearly increase.
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Kuroboshi
Posts: 1168 |
Hey, I agree with many of your choices. Especially Devin. Methinks Mikael Akerfeldt and Dan Swano should have a star though.
Some vocalists I think should be on the list as well.
Tobias Netzell: "For You To Know"
Mortuus: "Cold Mouth Prayer" (Marduk) (Probably my favorite vocalist, awesome live to. "Baptism by Fire!!!")
Dani Filth: "Her Ghost in the Fog" (A lot of hate for this guy I guess, but his vocal span is amazing. Trying to do his high pitches at the karaoke is vocal chord suicide.)
Andy Schmidt: "Back to Times of Splendor" (Disillusion)
Burton Bell: "Final Exit" (Fear Factory)
Personally, I love Johannes Persson's screams (for example "Back to Chapel Town") and Lord K's growls ("At the Entrance to Hell's Unholy Fire"), but they're not that versatile I guess.
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Written by LeKiwi on 05.10.2013 at 21:00
There is no disagreement, all I have stated has yet to be refuted and still stands.
On the contrary, you've already made concessions regarding your choosing process, and that your mission of objectivity is marred by a subjective undertone (which it is, the result is subjective, no matter how much you try to refute it otherwise). The discordance between your title + opening line promising a "concise" list and the clearly one-sided area of music you have analysed does highlight this to a degree. You even said in a later comment that your list is "limited" in scope. If so how can this be a list of the greatest vocalists in metal, and how can this list then be considered "concise" if this is the premise of it? It's these inconsistencies which weaken your list, and is denigrated further by your showy attitude when challenged about legitimate complaints. Had this been a list of "My favourite vocalists in progressive metal" I doubt any issues would have arisen here.
As mz stated in some fashion, you can't claim an objective dominion when you aren't premising said inclusions with objective proof. You've included no description or analysis with any vocalists mentioned here so I'm afraid all that you have said IS instantly refutable simply by others' opinion because what you have stated here is not objective until proven so. That's the great thing about opinion: it requires no proof. That which is objective does though, and people get irritated by those that try to elevate their own opinions to "Objective" status with none of the required proving involved. It's arrogant and patently erroneous
Quote: Talent, as I stated before, refers to a level of aptitude or skill which in high levels enables a person to excel at a particular activity (or activities) which proves arduous to imitate for those who lack such talent. It's as simple as that. This means, that although talent cannot be accurately measured as a value, it can be gauged relative to other levels of talent. Continuing to imitate several of these vocalists' styles, I can appreciate which ones are difficult to perform. I am not making a claim to supremacy, any vocalist who endeavors to excel can conclude the same.
I don't think you realise just how subjective this list is. From my perspective a shockingly large number of these vocalists are simply good at what they do, and nothing more. Your theory on talent is sound, but it doesn't match up to your evidence, i.e. the vocalists you have submitted as paradigms of this. A perfect example of this is including Johan Längqvist over Messiah. Johan is the better vocalist for sure, but more "talented" under your rubric of the term? Quite clearly not. Calling oneself an arbiter of objectivity and having such a basic range of vocalists to highlight it, to me, makes me think you need to go back to drawing board and have a closer look at a larger pool of metal vocalists and a more concise outlook at each of them, not a dense focus on progressive metal. Either that or change the premise of the list to suit what it actually is, and just be a bit more forthcoming with it. Naturally this is my own opinion, but so is this list yours
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LeKiwi High Fist Prog
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LeKiwiHigh Fist ProgPosts: 4038
Written by Guest on 06.10.2013 at 12:46
You are correct in that I made concessions, as anyone who might attempt a list of this subject would do The premise is objective and thus, by definition, so is the end result. Realistically, this list will be an on-going process until metal ceases to exist as a genre which imposes the fact that it will never be complete. I don't believe I ever stated this was a concise list of the most talented vocalists in metal, read the description again It is a concise list of vocalists who I have had the opportunity to be exposed to and now admire for their talent, i.e. those vocalists who are unknown to me will not see their presence on this list until the circumstances change. Hence, the purpose of the suggestion scheme. Any such suggestion is accompanied by as thorough an investigation of their work as possible with the limited time I have to spare. Alternatively, the user who made the recommendation can find an apt track which suffices.
Any user who challenges the inclusion of any vocalist on this list will receive the precise reason for that decision. In the future I hope to have each vocalist's talents highlighted in a short description. That should sate the belligerent portion of this community, including yourself
I urge you to voice your gripes with this list, and I would be inclined to ease them, as much as I could for someone who seeks conflict. Better yet, wait until I provide the descriptions in due time, then do so. As I stated before, I don't have the time to go out and search for every talented vocalist in metal. I have named this list as I have because it is such an objective claim. People visit my list and either appreciate it or fervently insist that I'm missing essential vocalists. This is my means of discovering new vocalists who might qualify for this list; that and through my constant search for new music.
Also please state how Johan isn't talented. Barring the time I was introduced to Johan's vocals, I don't even listen to Candlemass. However, in that short session I was able to determine that he is indeed talented. He has an incredible range, very resonant lows, shrieking highs, and to top it off he applies vocal fry in a subtle manner which is no easy task.
Also, I advise you to discontinue the claims of subjectivity. Objectivity: not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts. Neither of those statements are applicable. When I receive a request, I take it seriously and objectively. As I have stated before, there are vocalists here I dislike the style of (i.e. do not listen to the music because the vocals are off-putting) yet they are still on this list. Please, explain again how subjective this list is. The fact that the list is incomplete does not constitute as an argument for such an assertion
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angel. Evil Butterfly
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angel.Evil ButterflyPosts: 2419
Written by LeKiwi on 06.10.2013 at 15:41
He has an incredible range, very resonant lows, shrieking highs, and to top it off he applies vocal fry in a subtle manner which is no easy task.
aha ! All of above applies to Sebastian too, I'm just saying
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The Fangirl.
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LeKiwi High Fist Prog
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LeKiwiHigh Fist ProgPosts: 4038
Written by Kuroboshi on 06.10.2013 at 10:28
Hey, I agree with many of your choices. Especially Devin. Methinks Mikael Akerfeldt and Dan Swano should have a star though.
Some vocalists I think should be on the list as well.
Tobias Netzell: "For You To Know"
Mortuus: "Cold Mouth Prayer" (Marduk) (Probably my favorite vocalist, awesome live to. "Baptism by Fire!!!")
Dani Filth: "Her Ghost in the Fog" (A lot of hate for this guy I guess, but his vocal span is amazing. Trying to do his high pitches at the karaoke is vocal chord suicide.)
Andy Schmidt: "Back to Times of Splendor" (Disillusion)
Burton Bell: "Final Exit" (Fear Factory)
Personally, I love Johannes Persson's screams (for example "Back to Chapel Town") and Lord K's growls ("At the Entrance to Hell's Unholy Fire"), but they're not that versatile I guess.
Thinking back on Dan's performance on Witherscape, he certain should. Mikael is one of my favourite vocalists but the stars in this case are awarded for versatility, where he lacks imo. I'll listen to a few tracks on the way to the library today; maybe I'll revise my decision
I love In Mourning, as you well know. I thought about adding the song "The Black Lodge", particularly focusing on the part at 3:18. While I think it's a great performance, I think too many vocalists can do that.
Thanks for the recommendations, Disillusion is a great suggestion, hadn't thought about them. I'll let you know how it goes.
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