This is a topic that fascinates me, both as a fan of metal and as a wannabe pseudo-musician. If you made it big in the metal world, how would sustain the quality of your releases or improve upon it, in order to avoid eventually turning into garbage? Very few bands (Enslaved are a good example) have never released a bad or mediocre album, most have released one or many. Some bands have nose-dived into permanent mediocrity. Suppose you were a successful solo artist or a band leader and you truly cared about your music, how would you go about avoiding such a fall from grace?

My potential solutions would be the following:

1. Quit while you're ahead. If you've released an x number of great albums, but you run out of ideas, simply call it quits. Easier said than done of course, especially when you truly love making music.
2. Slowly, but steadily continue to change your sound and progress in different directions. This once again is easier said than done and might be met with disapproval from fans.
3. Simply only release an album every 4-5 years, surely some good ideas will come to you in that long a time.

Which, if any, of these solutions do you think might work best? Do you have a solution of your own? Please discuss. As I said, this is a topic that is truly fascinating to me and I await everyone's thoughts on this.

Stay away from drugs, women, drink only craft beer and good whisky, live in Sweden, Luleå, or north place, stay more inside, avoid publicity, wild parties, wont go to wild parties, spend money on Florida and LA houses.... basically be me

Just don't give a damn and make music when you want to make it.

What Amorphis did to avoid autopilot after The Beginning of Times was changing working habits and staff. Especially their work with Jens Bogren is noteworthy.

Written by Risto on 17.09.2015 at 21:05

What Amorphis did to avoid autopilot after The Beginning of Times was changing working habits and staff. Especially their work with Jens Bogren is noteworthy.

they are Nordic people, even I should say Scandinavs, we should accept Finland in Scandinavia :p politically not geographically ...we are different people
Peter Forsberg can easily walk in O-vik non gives a fuck
Imag it in USA? UK, France?

Haha, what?

Written by Warman on 17.09.2015 at 23:55

Haha, what?

You're Stockholm lad, you wont get it
I mean Finland are same as Scandinavia in life style, something and we all are Nordic country
We don't bother super stars in a streets, I have seen Luleå players often, non in a street don bother as ppl do in USA , hookers around and wild part on ---

Written by Bad English on 18.09.2015 at 01:02

You're Stockholm lad, you wont get it
I mean Finland are same as Scandinavia in life style, something and we all are Nordic country
We don't bother super stars in a streets, I have seen Luleå players often, non in a street don bother as ppl do in USA , hookers around and wild part on ---

This is now going way off topic, but considering we in Stockholm are much more used to "super stars in the streets" (you see famous people here every week, at least famous swedes), I think we are the ones who don't bother those people.

Written by Warman on 18.09.2015 at 20:29

Written by Bad English on 18.09.2015 at 01:02

You're Stockholm lad, you wont get it
I mean Finland are same as Scandinavia in life style, something and we all are Nordic country
We don't bother super stars in a streets, I have seen Luleå players often, non in a street don bother as ppl do in USA , hookers around and wild part on ---

This is now going way off topic, but considering we in Stockholm are much more used to "super stars in the streets" (you see famous people here every week, at least famous swedes), I think we are the ones who don't bother those people.

I agree and we don't, same as Norwegians, Finns, Denes, Fareo islanders , Icelandians (or how I suppose spell it)
Its Nordic mentality I suppose

Written by Bad English on 17.09.2015 at 15:06

Stay away from drugs, women, drink only craft beer and good whisky, live in Sweden, Luleå, or north place, stay more inside, avoid publicity, wild parties, wont go to wild parties, spend money on Florida and LA houses.... basically be me

Sounds like the best possible plan... by this measure, I should be extremely successful, except that I'm so far north that I think moose outnumber people and so far, the moose are not really enjoying my music at all

You can never count on how people may view your music, but as long as you are good to others and stay out of trouble, you'll maintain a fair degree of respect.

Written by The Evergreen on 24.09.2015 at 00:58

Written by Bad English on 17.09.2015 at 15:06

Stay away from drugs, women, drink only craft beer and good whisky, live in Sweden, Luleå, or north place, stay more inside, avoid publicity, wild parties, wont go to wild parties, spend money on Florida and LA houses.... basically be me

Sounds like the best possible plan... by this measure, I should be extremely successful, except that I'm so far north that I think moose outnumber people and so far, the moose are not really enjoying my music at all

You can never count on how people may view your music, but as long as you are good to others and stay out of trouble, you'll maintain a fair degree of respect.

Are you from Alaska? I live close :p

None of those options in the OP are magic bullets to prevent a band/musician from "falling from grace." Even quitting while you're ahead might not work unless you just stopped making music all together. Staying away from drugs isn't an option either since even straight-edge bands can see a drop in the quality after a while. There is no surefire way to avoid seeing your material stagnate.

I say never do the same thing twice. In some ways this could make it more difficult for fans to latch onto a core, consistent sound from your band, but if one has enough of a personal identity and sound as a musician, it's easy to change things up while still sticking to a sound that is unquestionably "you" (see Devin Townsend, Mories, Quorthon, etc). Experimenting with different sounds album to album keeps your fanbase on its toes, it keeps you innovative, and it rather eliminates the possibility of even "falling from grace" if you ask me, because if you never stay in any particular songwriting approach for more than one album at a time, how could you ever "fall" from it if it's something you just did once and then moved on from?

Written by Bad English on 24.09.2015 at 01:06

Are you from Alaska? I live close :p

Bad English, yes, I live in Alaska. SO close, yet so far. I think I'd have to fly to Seattle, then Tokyo or Denver to get to anywhere in your fair country.


Back on topic, how about just making sure that you always give the music your best, then? The same is both good and bad. I like Amon Amarth because I always know what I'm getting, but some find them boring. Hammerfall IS boring to me now.

Change is both good and bad. I love Amorphis now but many do not since they changed their style. I like Nightwish less than I used to for sure.

What is never good is to half-ass a record. That will sink a career... sometimes. Metallica somehow kept going... of course I, at least, have no more love for them...
How about that?

Written by The Evergreen on 28.09.2015 at 22:15

Written by Bad English on 24.09.2015 at 01:06

Are you from Alaska? I live close :p

Bad English, yes, I live in Alaska. SO close, yet so far. I think I'd have to fly to Seattle, then Tokyo or Denver to get to anywhere in your fair country.


Back on topic, how about just making sure that you always give the music your best, then? The same is both good and bad. I like Amon Amarth because I always know what I'm getting, but some find them boring. Hammerfall IS boring to me now.

Change is both good and bad. I love Amorphis now but many do not since they changed their style. I like Nightwish less than I used to for sure.

What is never good is to half-ass a record. That will sink a career... sometimes. Metallica somehow kept going... of course I, at least, have no more love for them...
How about that?

I mean geographically and believe me east side would be closer
So you know what I mena when its dark at 13:00 and light all night in summer, when snow is 7 months and in winter minus 30¤C and son on

Written by Bad English on 28.09.2015 at 22:16

I mean geographically and believe me east side would be closer
So you know what I mena when its dark at 13:00 and light all night in summer, when snow is 7 months and in winter minus 30¤C and son on

Isn't it glorious?

Now I just gotta get some metal going up here, and, you know, not fall from grace. I'm probably not the right guy for the job.

FFS K7 back on/topic. Your question if The Evergreenis from Alaska has TOTALLY NOTHING to do with the topic.
Stop posting for the sake of your post count. Your question was a total SPAM post.

That's a very interesting subject and I think the answer is to simply not worry about falling from grace. To do music from the soul, without trying to please anyone other but yourself. You may not keep your current fanbase, but there surely will be someone to appreciate your dedication and authenticity.

Written by angel_heart on 16.11.2015 at 12:49

That's a very interesting subject and I think the answer is to simply not worry about falling from grace. To do music from the soul, without trying to please anyone other but yourself. You may not keep your current fanbase, but there surely will be someone to appreciate your dedication and authenticity.

As far as attitudes go, I agree, that is the best way to go, simply do what you like (perhaps while continuing to find new artists, who inspire you and give you new ideas and perspectives).

... unrelated material to follow...

There's something else that I have been thinking about that sort of relates to this topic too: if one was to create a new thing that is all their own (adding elements to your style, that no band in the same genre has ever added), how do you keep that from becoming a gimmick?

For example, as much as I love Opeth, before "Heritige", the three previous albums always had me with the feeling of: "oh, now here come the clean/harsh vocals as opposed to what came before" every time Akerfeldt switched singing styles. Even if it is not meant to be a gimmick, it sort of becomes one anyway. This is coming from someone, who loves Opeth and who also uses both clean vocals and growls in their own music.

Today I had the crazy (or maybe not so crazy) idea of mixing ambience with prog and black metal, not in the way it has been done before (maybe it has, I am not that familiar with ambient music at all), but in that Opethian arbitrary way of ambience and then full stop and metal, then once again full stop and ambience. In other words, the transitions would maybe work thematically and lyrically, but in no other way, they would be completely arbitrary.

I am not sure yet if that's what I am going to do, but I already fear, that it will become a gimmick.

Anyways, sorry about that little non sequitor rant and thanks for sharing Your thoughts on this topic!

P.S.

Thank You Marcel, for getting this back on topic. I was getting kind of annoyed with Bad English there going on about unrelated stuff. Thanks again

I think some people will always say innovation is a gimmick regardless of whether it actualy is or not.
The best is not to worry about it, I think.

Written by Karlabos on 22.01.2016 at 20:15

I think some people will always say innovation is a gimmick regardless of whether it actualy is or not.
The best is not to worry about it, I think.

True. My problem is, that while I am willing to give other artists the benefit of the doubt, I often do not extend the same generosity to myself. Perhaps that's one way to keep from selling out or falling from grace: being your own worst, most bashful, unforgiving critic.

I would die tragically in a vehicular accident after having recently spent a lot of time in personal solitude taking lessons from classical musicians and composing many of my own original classical works.

No one ever talks about that dreadful third Randy Rhoads album!

I say quit while your ahead and go out with a boom!

In this scenario you mentioned being "big in metal". I'm guessing you mean Iron Maiden level fame. In that case it really is impossible to sustain critical success no matter what you do. If you're lucky enough to have a career spanning decades then eventually you're going to produce something that fans and or critics do not like.

If you stay the course (Amon Amarth, Motorhead, AC/DC) they'll call you boring and repetitive. If you change your sound to keep up with current trends (Metallica and pretty much every other thrash metal band in the early 90's) they'll call you a sell out. And if you try and innovate you run the risk of failing spectacularly, and even if you manage to make something great and ground breaking you'll still likely alienate some sizable chunk of your original fan-base (Opeth or Mastodon are good examples here).

If you're in the business long enough eventually you're going to produce an album that is largely unliked. This is just the way it is.

That doesn't mean you can't make a great album after a couple of mediocre (or outright bad) albums. And once you hit those upper echelons of commercial success you'll continue to have financial success as long as you choose to keep touring and producing new music.

So called wash-ups that haven't produced anything meaningful in ten+ years (Metallica, AC/DC, KISS, Aerosmith, etc) continue to sell out arena shows and will continue to do so.

Written by Metren on 22.01.2016 at 20:10

There's something else that I have been thinking about that sort of relates to this topic too: if one was to create a new thing that is all their own (adding elements to your style, that no band in the same genre has ever added), how do you keep that from becoming a gimmick?

Being gimmicky or not is mostly a matter of perspective, so I wouldn't worry about it either. Even if it is a gimmick, I think it's the end result that matters. Does it sound good? If so, then who cares in what category it's placed?

And yes, sooner or later you'll become obsolete, too much of a visionary, a sell-out or any of the other etiquettes that the fans so graciously bestow on the artists, but since this is a "damned if you do, damned if you don't situation" and there are always people who will find something to criticise, again I wouldn't worry about it. If you care about sales, than I don't think metal (especially the more extreme genres) are the way to go anyway. And if you don't care about sales that much, I understand that critics hurt and disappoint, but it's just like with your personality - not everyone has to like it. If you're happy with who you are and if you have people who genuinely like you and care about you, it should be enough. In the end, (good) music is a reflection of your personality.

I always argue that Testament is an underrated band, but of all the thrashers they have made the wisest decisions in terms of stylistic changes, etc., since the mid-90's. They have been compared to Metallica and at one point they did sound quite similar, namely Practice What You Preach is kind of Metallica-y. Comparing albums:

Practice What You Preach vs And Justice for All...

Justice is the better record but seriously suffered from the production, obviously, and Lars' dipshit ideas really started to undermine Metallica's legacy at that point.

Low vs Black Album

As a metal album, Low is a far superior effort vs Black because it is arguable Black is not even metal (depending on your definition of metal and the track you choose.) Low was heavier and more progressive, and Chuck had started to bring in low death growls into his work while James was softening and bringing in other influences such as Country, which is definitely LESS METAL!!!

Moving on, Testament entered an interesting period where they experimented with death metal. There are three-four albums where basically Chuck just sang low growls. There is less soloing, but the music hits hard and it's an obvious attempt to move towards the gravitational center of the metal culture at the time - Death metal!!

What did Metallica do during this period?

"Until it Sleeps" ..der ner ner ner ner nah ner

Freaking joke!! My grandma is more metal.

More recently Testament has brought back the thrash that worked best for them in their heyday, and Skolnick returned to lead guitar duties, skunk-striped hair and all! I guess you can't play christmas carols forever, right Alex?

Anyway, each album by Testament is most definitely 100% metal, whether thrash or death types style, but their catalog features very different sounding records.

The New Order sounds completely different than Demonic. Period. Both are good records, but what other thrash band can claim that much diversity while maintaining the heavy?

Slayer has stayed true, but they fall victim to the Iron Maiden syndrome: you go to the show and what do you want to see?

WAR ENSEMBLE!!! (or Aces High if you're seeing Maiden)

30+ year-old songs...

That said, Testament is a lesser thrash band vs a Megadeth or a Slayer, so who knows? Maybe it's easier to maintain a more obscure presence in the scene where you're not expected double platinum on everything you release. How much pressure there is for a guy like Dave Mustaine to sell two million records is an unknown, and whether he gives a shit is an unknown (I'm sure he's ranted about it for three hours at some point like he rants about cold french fries a Wendy's or the fact that they took Friends off the air, or pretty much anything because that's what Dave does - bitch about every god damn thing in the universe.

Testament probably has day jobs. That's the difference, I think. To some extent they do it because they love it because they could make a lot more money doing pretty much anything else - truck driving, plumbing, who knows? I seriously doubt Chuck Billy is sitting pretty.

Lars probably drives a fking Rolls Royce. "A bird pooped on my car!! Someone call someone and have that bird killed. No, extinct the species!! You don't poop on my car!!!"

Good music just doesn't come out of spoiled rich brats.

Written by Bad English on 17.09.2015 at 15:06

Stay away from drugs

I don't think you fully understand just how influential drugs were/are to the music that we know today.

As for the topic, a fall from grace is inevitable in my opinion. I guess one way around it is just like the barrage of popular music that's being shoved down our faces today. Even when they're not making music, people like Kanye West and Beyonce are never two steps away from the public eye, and that in a way ensures their longevity and relevance. Of course, that's pretty hard for metal musicians since they are generally always consigned to the margins of the music industry.

I think that it's near inevitable that you will eventually have a fall from grace as an artist. If you keep making the same music then you will receive criticism for just making the same thing over and over again. If you change your sound, even in a gradual evolution, you alienate part of your fanbase. I'd say the best thing to do is to just make music that you, the artist, would want to listen to. People will come and go as fans, critical opinion may change, but you pick up new fans as you lose old ones. This has the potential to send you into a downward spiral of delusion equal to Otep, but it's better than making uninspired music. At least somebody will enjoy it.

You could also just go the Death or Emperor route and stop when you're reaching the end of your peak too. Or just form a million side projects Mories style.

Maybe drugs will help a band to make good music 'til the end of times.

Been thinking about this again, more specifically about how to improve with each release as a one-man project. I also realized that my original question of avoiding a fall was somewhat overly pessimistic, it shouldn't be about just avoiding becoming irrelevant or incapable as a musician, one should aim higher than that. Being the sole member of a musical project has its advantages, of course, you have complete creative control for example, but on the other hand, you have nobody to question or challenge your creative decisions, which can lead to a downfall. Sometimes success can get to you and make you think that you can do no wrong and at times like these, criticism is invaluable. Thus one of the best things an artist can do imo is to bounce ideas off of other artists and fans as often as possible. A good strategy might be to make videos giving fans small snippets of material that you're recording for a future album and then to really listen to all the feedback and at least consider the possibility that maybe your current ideas aren't working or aren't as great as you think they are and that you need to start over. When creating an album becomes almost a collaborative effort between a musician and their fans, improvement should follow.