MetalManic
Posts: 650 |
21.09.2024 - 19:59Rating: 9
Well put
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Brutal Water
Posts: 103 |
22.09.2024 - 09:48Rating: 9
Heh, I was contemplating writing a review for this, but it looks like you already covered what I would have had to say.
I agree with 99.9% of this review (to me, "Waffenbrüder" is just okay, but a tad overproduced and -polished).
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That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.
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DarkWingedSoul
Posts: 1357 |
22.09.2024 - 12:16Rating: 8
Thanks for the reminder, forgot about this realease
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AndyMetalFreak A Nice Guy ContributorPosts: 5239 |
22.09.2024 - 12:42Rating: 9
Written by DarkWingedSoul on 22.09.2024 at 12:16
Thanks for the reminder, forgot about this realease
If you thought the debut was good then you should definitely give this is even better imo.
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DarkWingedSoul
Posts: 1357 |
22.09.2024 - 13:22Rating: 8
I guess i liked non est deus better, but will spin this for sure next week at work
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AndyMetalFreak A Nice Guy ContributorPosts: 5239 |
22.09.2024 - 13:24Rating: 9
Written by DarkWingedSoul on 22.09.2024 at 13:22
I guess i liked non est deus better, but will spin this for sure next week at work
I like Non Est Deus too, it's another great project of his, and the last album Legacy was fantastic.
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Fallen Ghost Craft Beer Geek
Posts: 723 |
Written by AndyMetalFreak on 22.09.2024 at 12:42
Written by DarkWingedSoul on 22.09.2024 at 12:16
Thanks for the reminder, forgot about this realease
If you thought the debut was good then you should definitely give this is even better imo.
Menschenmühle was the best album of 2021 for me, so this comment really makes me long for the special edition vinyl I pre-ordered!
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corrupt With a lowercase c AdminPosts: 3490 |
corruptWith a lowercase cAdminPosts: 3490
I don't know if it's my German upbringing or just a general fear of anything resembling nationalism, but whenever I hear those original propaganda recordings, I cringe. The German education system makes sure we know them and the terror they represent. I'm always suspicious of projects that play them just for effect, and I instinctively pay close attention to the message.
Menschenmühle worked for me in that regard, there were a few songs that bordered on glorification, but the overall message came across very clearly to me. I have more issues with this one, mostly because of how simple the lyrics are and how they often fail to contrast individual suffering with feelings of patriotism and ideology.
It's almost like the message is that both can coexist in some songs. "Menschenmühle" follows the message of the album it's named after, but "Sturmtrupp" lacks any contextualization. Same with "Lviv zu Lemberg". The lyrics of both songs blame the logistics of a war of attrition for the suffering described, rather than condemning the ideology that led to it. "Waffenbrüder" is a very subtle critique of the horrors of trench warfare, but ends with a chorus that glorifies the protagonist's friendship with his (now fallen) comrade as "brothers in arms".
It's hard to say how I feel about this. I understand what Noise is trying to do, but it fails to have the right effect on me.
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corrupt With a lowercase c AdminPosts: 3490 |
corruptWith a lowercase cAdminPosts: 3490
Written by A Real Mönkey on 24.09.2024 at 18:05 We’re sorry you’re ashamed of your heritage but you’re analyzing this far deeper than necessary. The message of the album is crystal clear: War sucks. Anything further is unnecessary speculation, especially for a german band who are probably very aware of their country’s reputation and have gone to great lengths to prove otherwise.
I don't know who you mean when you say "we", but I'm not sure you're getting the point. Shame has nothing to do with it. It's responsibility. Responsibility to ensure something like WW1 (and WW2) never happens again. And in that light it is extremely important to analyze any work dealing with war as a topic because it is very easy to glorify nationalism and the war it leads to.
"War sucks" is a pretty poor message when dealing with one that was the result of several generations of men growing up in a militaristic society, blindly and proudly marching to the front for their emperor who would sacrifice tens of thousands of men for a few hundred meters of dead land. That's not even the same concept of war as anything possible today. It is inhumane, brutal, and pointless, and only possible because generations of fascist indoctrination and propaganda made people blind to the political reality and proud to defend an authoritarian regime.
I'm far from accusing Noise of anything but good intentions here, but there is such a thing as unintentional dog whistling. And a few of these new songs put a lot of emphasis on patriotism with little context. And little of the contextualization that is provided deals with ideology. No matter how you feel about this album, that is legitimate criticism that anyone writing music about these wars must be ready to face. Because the historic context is there. And leaving it out is a deliberate decision.
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Starvynth i c deaf people StaffPosts: 3145 |
Honestly, I'm a bit torn.
On one hand, it's easy for me to agree with corrupt, as I come from a similar background and understand exactly what he means. Nationalism sucks, plain and simple.
On the other hand, I can also see where Mönkey is coming from. With the statement from Bandcamp in mind, any accusation against Noise regarding glorification of war vanishes into thin air.
Quote: Its intent is not to glorify, because there is no glory in war.
Everyone loses – their lives, their souls, their humanity.
For me personally, that clear and unambiguous message is enough.
However, I would prefer if the music – along with the lyrics – didn’t require additional explanation to take a definitive stance. What I miss is a clear condemnation of war in the lyrics, because even if one is inclined to interpret songs like "Sturmtrupp", "Gott Mit Der Kavallerie", and "Waffenbrüder" as neutral, historical reflections on the events, the overwhelming pathos and pseudo-religious glorification of war heroes starkly contrasts with what the artist supposedly aims to express. And that has nothing to do with over-interpretation, as the lyrics are so straightforward and unambiguous that no deep analysis is needed.
Musically, I actually think Die Urkatastrophe is pretty awesome, maybe even better than its predecessor, and I have absolutely no problem enjoying it. But that's not the point.
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signatures = SPAM
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Cynic Metalhead Ambrish Saxena
Posts: 7478 |
Oh boy, here we go again.
Can't we just rise above this and listen...music?!
As Monkey said about superfluous information, and to some extent I felt is overreaction.
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corrupt With a lowercase c AdminPosts: 3490 |
corruptWith a lowercase cAdminPosts: 3490
Written by Cynic Metalhead on 24.09.2024 at 22:33
Oh boy, here we go again.
Can't we just rise above this and listen...music?!
As Monkey said about superfluous information, and to some extent I felt is overreaction.
You know you can just not respond to a topic you're not interested in, right? This very much is a discussion about music and I've about had it with the constant whining of some people here when it comes to any kind of accountability. These are valid points to be made about art, and Metal Storm is not a place where this kind of discussion will be muted.
Sometimes I wonder if some people confuse this site with 4chan...
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A Real Mönkey
Posts: 1144 |
Written by Starvynth on 24.09.2024 at 21:13
However, I would prefer if the music – along with the lyrics – didn’t require additional explanation to take a definitive stance. I miss a clear condemnation of war in the lyrics, because even if one is inclined to interpret songs like "Sturmtrupp", "Gott Mit Der Kavallerie", and "Waffenbrüder" as neutral, historical reflections on the events, the overwhelming pathos and pseudo-religious glorification of war heroes starkly contrasts with what the artist supposedly aims to express. And that has nothing to do with over-interpretation, as the lyrics are so straightforward and unambiguous that no deep analysis is needed.
Admittedly I don’t speak German, so my scope is limited on this one. But I think If there is any nationalism, I feel like it’s being used within the historical context of the WWI themes presented by the band and non indicative of the band’s actual feelings. Something done by millions of metal bands, german or otherwise. I see no hint of nationalist sentiment and blind patriotism in the cover art, or the even the postcards printed in the mediabook. To me it portrays the universal tragedy of war, and the soldiers who were probably proud to fight for their country but perished all the same. I guess that’s the beauty of this kind of music tho; it’s open to all kinds of interpretations. Some more hostile than others.
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Starvynth i c deaf people StaffPosts: 3145 |
Written by A Real Mönkey on 25.09.2024 at 01:07
Admittedly I don’t speak German, so my scope is limited on this one.
I guess that’s the beauty of this kind of music tho; it’s open to all kinds of interpretations.
That is very true.
But if you're really convinced of your own statement, wouldn't it have been more consistent and also more logical to interpret corrupt's post as what it is - namely the very personal but easily comprehensible thoughts of a German guy who, unlike you, can understand every single word of the lyrics?
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signatures = SPAM
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A Real Mönkey
Posts: 1144 |
Written by Starvynth on 25.09.2024 at 13:25
Written by A Real Mönkey on 25.09.2024 at 01:07
Admittedly I don’t speak German, so my scope is limited on this one.
I guess that’s the beauty of this kind of music tho; it’s open to all kinds of interpretations.
That is very true.
But if you're really convinced of your own statement, wouldn't it have been more consistent and also more logical to interpret corrupt's post as what it is - namely the very personal but easily comprehensible thoughts of a German guy who, unlike you, can understand every single word of the lyrics?
Yeah I realized that not long after my first post, which went something like “Wait… I can’t read the lyrics, so I can’t properly understand the message. Whoopsie toodles.” I think I jumped the gun a bit on this debate, even if I stand by my historical context belief. Also probably could’ve replied to his post with a little more class. Id rather be thought wrong than thought an asshole.
Heed my warning future generations: Don’t post angry (That’s how you get issued a warning of permaban by the staff member you picked a fight with). Do what Cynic said and enjoy the music.
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corrupt With a lowercase c AdminPosts: 3490 |
corruptWith a lowercase cAdminPosts: 3490
Written by A Real Mönkey on 25.09.2024 at 13:54 Heed my warning future generations: Don’t post angry (That’s how you get issued a warning of permaban by the staff member you picked a fight with).
Are you serious?
You would have received the same warning if you had done this to a regular user and we noticed it. As I told you in said warning, we will ban you if you bully people or try to silence their voices. The same is true for anyone else attempting anything like that.
I also told you that I gave you a pass on the first time you tried this with me because I realized that I was partly responsible for the escalation. I'll have an actual discussion (as in, one not involving personal attacks) with you any day - I even replied to your post with further explanation, but responding to someone sharing their thoughts with a "could you like shut up" video and later complaining for being called out on it is a bit much don't you think?
I fully understand that a certain analysis of music or pop culture in general is not to everyone's liking. But there's a huge spectrum between just staying out of it, and being an asshole to other people. All I'm trying to tell you is that it's you who picks where you place yourself on that spectrum.
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A Real Mönkey
Posts: 1144 |
Written by corrupt on 25.09.2024 at 14:42
Written by A Real Mönkey on 25.09.2024 at 13:54 Heed my warning future generations: Don’t post angry (That’s how you get issued a warning of permaban by the staff member you picked a fight with).
Are you serious?
In my defense I wasn’t totally serious when I put that last part. I know the rules of name calling here, that’s why I led with don’t post angry. I just figured doing it to an actual staff member wasn’t helping my case.
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nikarg StaffPosts: 7281 |
I remember the lyrics of the first album being fully condemning of war, sharing factual stories, and being very interesting to read (of course, I put them through google translate, as I don't speak German). I have not translated the lyrics to this one yet, but it gives me the feeling that corrupt mentioned, because of the anthemic choruses and the overall mood of the album. Noise has clearly stated what his intentions are with this project, so I am not questioning that, but the sound is definitely more simplistic and "sing-along/go to war/kill the enemy/prevail". Which is ok for me; I really find the album super-enjoyable.
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ferice
Posts: 4
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Thanks for the reminder, i completely agree on what you said.
Tutuapp
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Nightmare^
Posts: 243 |
02.10.2024 - 00:13Rating: 8
Written by nikarg on 27.09.2024 at 13:20
,but the sound is definitely more simplistic and "sing-along/go to war/kill the enemy/prevail". Which is ok for me; I really find the album super-enjoyable.
Well, he's been touring extensively so I guess this somehow affected the songwriting process. This simplified sound structure might be in purpose, just to make the gigs more engaging.
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F3ynman Nocturnal Bro ContributorPosts: 2982 |
07.10.2024 - 15:48Rating: 9
F3ynmanNocturnal BroContributorPosts: 2982
Written by A Real Mönkey on 25.09.2024 at 01:07
Admittedly I don’t speak German, so my scope is limited on this one. But I think If there is any nationalism, I feel like it’s being used within the historical context of the WWI themes presented by the band and non indicative of the band’s actual feelings. Something done by millions of metal bands, german or otherwise. I see no hint of nationalist sentiment and blind patriotism in the cover art, or the even the postcards printed in the mediabook. To me it portrays the universal tragedy of war, and the soldiers who were probably proud to fight for their country but perished all the same. I guess that’s the beauty of this kind of music tho; it’s open to all kinds of interpretations. Some more hostile than others.
I agree with your assessment. Sure, one could make an album that more blatantly spells out "war bad - don't do this at home, kids". But, it looks like Noise doesn't think his audience is simple-minded and instead will be able to understand that the lyrics are told through a historically accurate POV. Whatever you do with these historical accounts is up to you.
Anyways, in case you haven't yet looked up the lyrics, I've now added them all here on MS. So, anyone who's interested, feel free to send them through your favorite translation tool and interpret for yourself!
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Brutal Water
Posts: 103 |
10.10.2024 - 20:45Rating: 9
I felt the whole point of the "motivational" war speech intros was that this is how people got lured into joining the war effort in the first place. I haven't read "All Quiet on the Western Front", but I read *about* it and watched the 30s and the recent adaptations. They both pretty much start with young, bright-eyed boys/men that know little about the world signing up just because everybody else is. There's quite some hype amongst these characters going into the war, only for them to be taught harsh lessons, to put it mildly.
I think these speeches peppered throughout the album are supposed to represent this kind of blind nationalism. After all, each country had its own share of these. You're only ever hearing the German speeches, because... well, the albums are in German. There is the Yankee Division EP which may not have a speech in English, but a wartime song intro. Same principle though.
(To elaborate, let me use an example: the German anthem used to be the Austrian anthem for about 120 years. Back in 1796 Napeleon was marching through Europe and Austrian Emperor Franz noted that both England and France already had national anthems, and that anthems are a good way to, as he put it, "strengthen the patriotism", especially during times of war. So he hired composer Joseph Haydn to specifically write an anthem [and not just a random song about how great our country is]. The lyrics were written by some contemporary poet whose name I've forgotten, but the lyrics changed over the years anyway, even before it became the German anthem. The melody alone makes you feel good and motivated.
Long story short, whether it's a speech, an anthem or a wartime song, they all have the same effect of keeping the gullible young soldiers motivated as they are marching to their doom.)
As for the individual lyrics (back to talking about actual Kanonenfieber), I don't think it's so much about glorification rather than about commemoration. A lot of Noise's lyrics were inspired by letters written by soldiers, or they are refering to specific battles or other events that people nowadays are not aware of anymore (WWI tends to get overshadowed by WWII). I mean, I never knew about the events that the Füsilier EP is talking about. I'm probably not the only one who's getting a fair share of interesting history lessons out of some of these songs. Sometimes the events are straightforward enough where you can easily imagine being one of those poor soldiers stuck in a shitty situation. Other times the songs are about specific battles where soldiers drop like flies and there is not much point in focussing on a single soldier's perspectice, but instead they're all about the sheer body count (which might come off as glorification even if it's not necessarily intended that way).
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That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.
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corrupt With a lowercase c AdminPosts: 3490 |
corruptWith a lowercase cAdminPosts: 3490
Written by Brutal Water on 10.10.2024 at 20:45 As for the individual lyrics (back to talking about actual Kanonenfieber), I don't think it's so much about glorification rather than about commemoration. A lot of Noise's lyrics were inspired by letters written by soldiers, or they are refering to specific battles or other events that people nowadays are not aware of anymore (WWI tends to get overshadowed by WWII). I mean, I never knew about the events that the Füsilier EP is talking about. I'm probably not the only one who's getting a fair share of interesting history lessons out of some of these songs. Sometimes the events are straightforward enough where you can easily imagine being one of those poor soldiers stuck in a shitty situation. Other times the songs are about specific battles where soldiers drop like flies and there is not much point in focussing on a single soldier's perspectice, but instead they're all about the sheer body count (which might come off as glorification even if it's not necessarily intended that way).
I understand all of that, although I can't necessarily say I agree with it. Pointing out the suffering of war from the perspective of soldiers is always a very fine line to walk. Sure, they are victims of a brutal, inhumane ideology, but they are also committing the very same acts of inhumane brutality that they are decrying. It's simply a one-sided picture of the horror of war to take this perspective and leave out the fact that these victims are also perpetrators. This is exacerbated by lyrics that dehumanize the enemy by giving them abstract names like "Tommys" or by speaking only of countries like Russia or France and not their people. Not to mention the portrayal of (ultimately futile) victories as acts of God. If this is someone's first contact with these events, and this is the narrative presented to them, I'm not sure how well that works as an education in historical events. I would argue that in order to fully understand these lyrics and put them in the proper context, you absolutely have to have prior knowledge of said context, and that's where they fail.
I never meant to dissect the lyrics word for word here, though, as there are certainly lines that can be read as an attempt to provide some context. But - going back to my original post - the overall feeling of glorification and victimhood dominates these songs for me and makes it hard to enjoy them in the same way I could his first album. That's also why I take issue with F3ynman's "simple-minded" frame. This is not a black and white issue. And it is not an attack on Noise as a person or an artist. But the change in atmosphere and message of these songs compared to Menschenmühle is there and it is salient. And I personally wish he had gone a different way on this one.
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Brutal Water
Posts: 103 |
11.10.2024 - 14:23Rating: 9
Written by corrupt on 10.10.2024 at 23:26
Pointing out the suffering of war from the perspective of soldiers is always a very fine line to walk. Sure, they are victims of a brutal, inhumane ideology, but they are also committing the very same acts of inhumane brutality that they are decrying. It's simply a one-sided picture of the horror of war to take this perspective and leave out the fact that these victims are also perpetrators. This is exacerbated by lyrics that dehumanize the enemy by giving them abstract names like "Tommys" or by speaking only of countries like Russia or France and not their people.
Doesn't that apply to most war movies/books/shows? Whenever I'm watching a war movie, I'm accepting that I'll be confronted with a good amount of racism amongst the characters and I know that in real life the other side, whoever it is, is more or less the same. I always felt like there is this unwritten rule to war stories that you're supposed to go into them unbiased and just witness a bunch of humans from all walks of life deal with everything in their own way. It's perfectly fine if you end up not liking any of the characters, just as long as you understand the overall point of the narrative.
Quote: If this is someone's first contact with these events, and this is the narrative presented to them, I'm not sure how well that works as an education in historical events. I would argue that in order to fully understand these lyrics and put them in the proper context, you absolutely have to have prior knowledge of said context, and that's where they fail.
When I was talking about learning about history from Kanonenfieber's music, I didn't mean that this should be anybody's first excursion into WWI; of course this would be a terrible idea. So yes, you are expected to have some prior knowledge about the basics of WWI before delving into Kanonenfieber. Only then can you appreciate individual stories about the more obscure events and battles that people wouldn't otherwise be talking about nowadays.
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That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.
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corrupt With a lowercase c AdminPosts: 3490 |
corruptWith a lowercase cAdminPosts: 3490
Written by Brutal Water on 11.10.2024 at 14:23
Doesn't that apply to most war movies/books/shows?
I mean, yes! That's why even "anti-war" movies are often criticized for inadvertently glorifying war. To the point where some people question whether there can even be such a thing as an anti-war movie. I said a few posts ago that this is simply the criticism you have to expect when you make a work about war. This discussion about Die Urkatastrophe is no different, and if Noise's motivation and reasoning are sound, so much the better. But there is merit to the argument that music, like film, is an inadequate medium for conveying the horror of war. Following this logic, the question of what it does convey becomes the core of its analysis.
We see people appropriating the work of other artists for their own purposes, or misinterpreting it (unintentionally or intentionally) to support a narrative of their own almost every day. Work like Die Urkatastrophe makes this easier, because the anthemic, melodic, and memorable parts of its songs are all glorification, and you have to make an effort to read critical analysis into them. And if you're just a casual listener, the glorifying parts may be the only thing you take away from it.
None of this is wrong per se, it just makes it harder for me, personally, to enjoy this album as much as I did the last one.
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