Written by [user id=5766] on 23.06.2006 at 02:18

Written by LethargyMan on 22.06.2006 at 16:55

Minor Threat are hardcore because they played hardcore punk. They were very VERY influential with the punk scene in the 80's... To say Minor Threat aren't hardcore is like saying that Obituary plays power metal... Also, listening to Norma Jean right now... It really isn't hardcore in any traditional sense. It sounds like alternative.

Exactly, Thats exactly how I think of bands like Norma Jean as well. They don't sound anything remotely close to the bands that started hardcore. And hardcore was much more punkish, now adays its more in league with indie/alternative. It reminds me of alot of stuff you might have seen on MTV during the 90's, but more experimental/ edgier I suppose. But bands like Norma Jean that people call hardcore don't resemble the hardcore of old. Does Black Flag or Minor Threat really relate to the new hardcore in anything at all?

By "new hardcore," you don't mean bands like Norma Jean do you? They aren't hardcore at all. I would say bands like Madball are some of the newer hardcore bands.

Written by Dangerboner on 23.06.2006 at 03:12

By "new hardcore," you don't mean bands like Norma Jean do you? They aren't hardcore at all. I would say bands like Madball are some of the newer hardcore bands.

Thats what i'm trying to get across. How is Norma Jean hardcore? It's not. All I hear is that bands like Norma Jean are the new hardcore, but I don't understand how they are even considered hardcore. I'll have to check out Madball.

Written by [user id=5766] on 23.06.2006 at 20:48

Written by Dangerboner on 23.06.2006 at 03:12

By "new hardcore," you don't mean bands like Norma Jean do you? They aren't hardcore at all. I would say bands like Madball are some of the newer hardcore bands.

Thats what i'm trying to get across. How is Norma Jean hardcore? It's not. All I hear is that bands like Norma Jean are the new hardcore, but I don't understand how they are even considered hardcore. I'll have to check out Madball.

haha don't! Madball sucks. lol

Yeah, I don't understand either. People just don't know what else to call it I guess.

What's up? If youd like to get into more hardcore stuff you should check out Helmet ! I just got the new Helmet album, MONOCHROME' an advanced copy from my work UMGD. Its OUT JULY 18th, if your into Metal -Hardcore/Punk genre, you need to check it out! You can listen to some songs on MP3.com and should definitely check out their website http://www.helmetmusic.com/ Have you heard any Metals bands lately? Been to any rocking shows? I hear they are going to be headlining the Vans Warp Tour ! Is anyone else going to go! AFI is going to be there, I can't wait to go, see you there!

Helmet is not hardcore at all, they are alternative metal...

How do you guys like Body Count? I haven't heard much at all, but from what I understand they're supposed to be one of the better hardcore bands around.

They're not a hardcore band at all, they are a rap-metal or debatably a rap-core band. Basically, they mix thrash with gangsta rap. Musically they are usually pure crap but they deserve respect for being one of the pioneers of mixing rap and metal...

they have a couple decent songs - when they don't fall into the trappings of tired rock and roll cliche's (everyone gets a solo per song)...

yeah, I wasn't too sure what the hell they are lol. I really haven't heard much, but my friend who's obsessed with hardcore music loves this band, so I kinda assumed.

Hatebreed maybe?

amazing band!

two very good hardcore bands would be biohazard and madball.

If you´re looking for something agressive, there´s nothing like Slipknot, excellent band I really recommend it being a huge fan myself.

@tulkas: Unfortunately, Slipknot ain't hardcore.

Once again, the genre "hardcore" refers to "hardcore punk" (or hardcore electronica... but, from the first post, this isn't the one we're talking about). Slipknot is nu-metal (or alternative), and definately not hardcore.

Hardcore is like this, this, and this.

Hardcore is not this, this, or even this.

Check out the mix of Hardcore Punk and Metal, the crossover.. bands like S.O.D, DRI, Municipal Waste, Nuclear Assault etc.. if you want hardcore you should check out Good Clean Fun, Rise and Fall, Gorilla Biscuits and some more..

full blown chaos are cool

and footclan is too ( [url]www.myspace.com/footclan[/url] )

oh and raised fist is also amazing !

Written by jupitreas on 28.06.2006 at 23:52

Helmet is not hardcore at all, they are alternative metal...

actually Sir ,Helmet did come from the NY Hardcore scene...and have elements of Post Hardcore in their music.....they also have Post/alternative Metal elements...Either way.....Helmet is Just Helmet

Written by Dangerboner on 23.06.2006 at 03:12

Written by [user id=5766] on 23.06.2006 at 02:18

Written by LethargyMan on 22.06.2006 at 16:55



Minor Threat are hardcore because they played hardcore punk. They were very VERY influential with the punk scene in the 80's... To say Minor Threat aren't hardcore is like saying that Obituary plays power metal... Also, listening to Norma Jean right now... It really isn't hardcore in any traditional sense. It sounds like alternative.

Exactly, Thats exactly how I think of bands like Norma Jean as well. They don't sound anything remotely close to the bands that started hardcore. And hardcore was much more punkish, now adays its more in league with indie/alternative. It reminds me of alot of stuff you might have seen on MTV during the 90's, but more experimental/ edgier I suppose. But bands like Norma Jean that people call hardcore don't resemble the hardcore of old. Does Black Flag or Minor Threat really relate to the new hardcore in anything at all?

By "new hardcore," you don't mean bands like Norma Jean do you? They aren't hardcore at all. I would say bands like Madball are some of the newer hardcore bands.

Yes and No...If You Listen to Latter day Black Flag albums like "Loose Nut"....or Anything put out By Fugazi (Not Minor Threat,But Still Ian's Music), you'll hear the Experimental and Jazzy time changes...that you see bands like DEP,Converge,Burnt by The Sun,Botch,Cave in doing later on.People seem to forget in The Mid/ Late 80's...Hardcore bands were experimenting and throwing alternative /Jazz elements into their music..this makes bands like Black Flag, Fugazi,Rites of Spring,Jawbox soo ahead of Their time...BTW...i'm surprised No one Mentioned Jawbreaker, Dag Nasty,Kill Your Idols,Or Negative Approach...check em out,they'll rule Your Face off


And Pyro...Norma Jean is Sludgy Metalcore...and Metalcore is a subgenre of Hardcore...This Makes Norma Jean hardcore..Trendy mediocre Hardcore...but still Hardcore

Written by [user id=14754] on 29.07.2006 at 09:10

Written by Dangerboner on 23.06.2006 at 03:12

Written by [user id=5766] on 23.06.2006 at 02:18

Written by LethargyMan on 22.06.2006 at 16:55



Minor Threat are hardcore because they played hardcore punk. They were very VERY influential with the punk scene in the 80's... To say Minor Threat aren't hardcore is like saying that Obituary plays power metal... Also, listening to Norma Jean right now... It really isn't hardcore in any traditional sense. It sounds like alternative.

Exactly, Thats exactly how I think of bands like Norma Jean as well. They don't sound anything remotely close to the bands that started hardcore. And hardcore was much more punkish, now adays its more in league with indie/alternative. It reminds me of alot of stuff you might have seen on MTV during the 90's, but more experimental/ edgier I suppose. But bands like Norma Jean that people call hardcore don't resemble the hardcore of old. Does Black Flag or Minor Threat really relate to the new hardcore in anything at all?

By "new hardcore," you don't mean bands like Norma Jean do you? They aren't hardcore at all. I would say bands like Madball are some of the newer hardcore bands.

Yes and No...If You Listen to Latter day Black Flag albums like "Loose Nut"....or Anything put out By Fugazi (Not Minor Threat,But Still Ian's Music), you'll hear the Experimental and Jazzy time changes...that you see bands like DEP,Converge,Burnt by The Sun,Botch,Cave in doing later on.People seem to forget in The Mid/ Late 80's...Hardcore bands were experimenting and throwing alternative /Jazz elements into their music..this makes bands like Black Flag, Fugazi,Rites of Spring,Jawbox soo ahead of Their time...BTW...i'm surprised No one Mentioned Jawbreaker, Dag Nasty,Kill Your Idols,Or Negative Approach...check em out,they'll rule Your Face off


And Pyro...Norma Jean is Sludgy Metalcore...and Metalcore is a subgenre of Hardcore...This Makes Norma Jean hardcore..Trendy mediocre Hardcore...but still Hardcore

Oh I know about later day Black Flag and Fugazi. And yes they do have those jazzy, or blues, or more experimental sounds. But they were trying to remove themselves from the hardcore movement. I've been reading American Hardcore: A tribal history, and everyone pretty much agrees that by the end of their runs they weren't playing hardcore punk, they wanted to be different. Rollins writes about how he hates going to shows in Get in the Van because he just hates the punks there. They didn't like it that they were trying to change their sound. Personally I like both Fugazi and the more experimental Black Flag. The later Black Flag material influenced alot of people in the sludge movement like The Melvins and EyeHateGod. The thing was though that Black Flag didn't want to be hardcore punk anymore, and Ian Mackaye states here:

There were 'Drunk Punks' and gay-bashing -- suddenly it was all stupid. It drove us crazy --we'd talk about what we were going to do. Some people were like, 'Fuck this. i'm out.' But for a lot of us, this was all we had; we decided that October '84 was gonna be 'Good Food October' which meant we were all gonna form new bands in October and create our own scene. Instead of trying to take back the scene, we were just gonna let them go on, form a new community and start again.

They weren't playing hardcore anymore, they were playing something new altogether. And yes they still retained parts of their older sound, but they had all grown as musicians. Most of the bands lost their audiences because of this. People didn't want Black Flag changing, so new types of people showed up at their shows later. The thing is hardcore punk kills itself off. It was at core all about not being able to play and just being angry and fast. Once your not that anymore are you still hardcore?

"And Pyro...Norma Jean is Sludgy Metalcore...and Metalcore is a subgenre of Hardcore...This Makes Norma Jean hardcore..Trendy mediocre Hardcore...but still Hardcore"

That might seem a logical conclusion, but you leave out the fact that: Metalcore was formed by hardcore punk bands adding metal into the mix like Black Sabbath for Black Flag. Metalcore was simple metalized punk. With Sludge being a mix of Doom metal like Sabbath (from the 60's) then being added with hardcore punk from the 80's and then add maybe a little bit of thrash or black or death metal that makes it metalcore as well as hardcore doesn't it by how I took your logic? I could say that Norma Jean is a blues group with that by saying that since they have the metal connection to the sludge influenced by Sabbath, and Sabbath was influenced by Blues artists, Norma Jean is a blues band. Does Norma Jean resemble B.B King? You could take that even further and say Blues was influenced by African Tribal music. Does Norma Jean resemble that? Doom was the first metal genre, yet does Death metal or Black sound like Doom? I just don't see how you can say something like Norma Jean can be related to Minor Threat. Fugazi yes, but Fugazi wasn't a hardcore punk band. Black Flag wasn't a hardcore punk band when they were doing the sludgier more experimental stuff. Hardcore is anti-experimental, it was a reaction to the experimental stuff. Once you stop playing the 2 note chord you weren't hardcore punk you were against it.

Was hardcore ever suppose to be trendy either?

Written by [user id=5766] on 30.07.2006 at 01:47

Written by [user id=14754] on 29.07.2006 at 09:10

Written by Dangerboner on 23.06.2006 at 03:12

Written by [user id=5766] on 23.06.2006 at 02:18

Written by LethargyMan on 22.06.2006 at 16:55



Minor Threat are hardcore because they played hardcore punk. They were very VERY influential with the punk scene in the 80's... To say Minor Threat aren't hardcore is like saying that Obituary plays power metal... Also, listening to Norma Jean right now... It really isn't hardcore in any traditional sense. It sounds like alternative.

Exactly, Thats exactly how I think of bands like Norma Jean as well. They don't sound anything remotely close to the bands that started hardcore. And hardcore was much more punkish, now adays its more in league with indie/alternative. It reminds me of alot of stuff you might have seen on MTV during the 90's, but more experimental/ edgier I suppose. But bands like Norma Jean that people call hardcore don't resemble the hardcore of old. Does Black Flag or Minor Threat really relate to the new hardcore in anything at all?

By "new hardcore," you don't mean bands like Norma Jean do you? They aren't hardcore at all. I would say bands like Madball are some of the newer hardcore bands.

Yes and No...If You Listen to Latter day Black Flag albums like "Loose Nut"....or Anything put out By Fugazi (Not Minor Threat,But Still Ian's Music), you'll hear the Experimental and Jazzy time changes...that you see bands like DEP,Converge,Burnt by The Sun,Botch,Cave in doing later on.People seem to forget in The Mid/ Late 80's...Hardcore bands were experimenting and throwing alternative /Jazz elements into their music..this makes bands like Black Flag, Fugazi,Rites of Spring,Jawbox soo ahead of Their time...BTW...i'm surprised No one Mentioned Jawbreaker, Dag Nasty,Kill Your Idols,Or Negative Approach...check em out,they'll rule Your Face off


And Pyro...Norma Jean is Sludgy Metalcore...and Metalcore is a subgenre of Hardcore...This Makes Norma Jean hardcore..Trendy mediocre Hardcore...but still Hardcore

Oh I know about later day Black Flag and Fugazi. And yes they do have those jazzy, or blues, or more experimental sounds. But they were trying to remove themselves from the hardcore movement. I've been reading American Hardcore: A tribal history, and everyone pretty much agrees that by the end of their runs they weren't playing hardcore punk, they wanted to be different. Rollins writes about how he hates going to shows in Get in the Van because he just hates the punks there. They didn't like it that they were trying to change their sound. Personally I like both Fugazi and the more experimental Black Flag. The later Black Flag material influenced alot of people in the sludge movement like The Melvins and EyeHateGod. The thing was though that Black Flag didn't want to be hardcore punk anymore, and Ian Mackaye states here:

There were 'Drunk Punks' and gay-bashing -- suddenly it was all stupid. It drove us crazy --we'd talk about what we were going to do. Some people were like, 'Fuck this. i'm out.' But for a lot of us, this was all we had; we decided that October '84 was gonna be 'Good Food October' which meant we were all gonna form new bands in October and create our own scene. Instead of trying to take back the scene, we were just gonna let them go on, form a new community and start again.

They weren't playing hardcore anymore, they were playing something new altogether. And yes they still retained parts of their older sound, but they had all grown as musicians. Most of the bands lost their audiences because of this. People didn't want Black Flag changing, so new types of people showed up at their shows later. The thing is hardcore punk kills itself off. It was at core all about not being able to play and just being angry and fast. Once your not that anymore are you still hardcore?

"And Pyro...Norma Jean is Sludgy Metalcore...and Metalcore is a subgenre of Hardcore...This Makes Norma Jean hardcore..Trendy mediocre Hardcore...but still Hardcore"

That might seem a logical conclusion, but you leave out the fact that: Metalcore was formed by hardcore punk bands adding metal into the mix like Black Sabbath for Black Flag. Metalcore was simple metalized punk. With Sludge being a mix of Doom metal like Sabbath (from the 60's) then being added with hardcore punk from the 80's and then add maybe a little bit of thrash or black or death metal that makes it metalcore as well as hardcore doesn't it by how I took your logic? I could say that Norma Jean is a blues group with that by saying that since they have the metal connection to the sludge influenced by Sabbath, and Sabbath was influenced by Blues artists, Norma Jean is a blues band. Does Norma Jean resemble B.B King? You could take that even further and say Blues was influenced by African Tribal music. Does Norma Jean resemble that? Doom was the first metal genre, yet does Death metal or Black sound like Doom? I just don't see how you can say something like Norma Jean can be related to Minor Threat. Fugazi yes, but Fugazi wasn't a hardcore punk band. Black Flag wasn't a hardcore punk band when they were doing the sludgier more experimental stuff. Hardcore is anti-experimental, it was a reaction to the experimental stuff. Once you stop playing the 2 note chord you weren't hardcore punk you were against it.

Was hardcore ever suppose to be trendy either?

Henry and Ian didnt want to be associated with hardcore Punk anymore but they still couldnt strip completely away from it...if you listen ...you still hear the Punk aspects....thats what made it soo amazing and unique.was the hybrid of Hardcore Punk/Progressive Rock/Jazz/Experimental/Doom and yes they inspired bands like Melvins,Eyehategod,Converge,Today is the Day,Neurosis,Cave in



and no its not supposed to be Trendy...but it has become trendy...and its sad because the sole purpose of hardcore in the beginning was to americanize Punk and Take out all that sex drugs and rock & roll rockstar bullshit...and focus on The DIY ethics and Raw Agression...its very sad you see all this fashioncore shit nowadays like Eighteen Visions and as i lay dying...Irony or Oxymoron Perhaps? but what can you do Really?..just listen to the sincere bands and ignore the mediocre trendy shit is pretty much the only thing you can do...and i see your point about Norma Jean...but you're making it out to be that i said they were Pure sludge or doom haha i nearly spit out my cereal when you compared them to BB King..thats absurd...when i said sludgy..i was referring to that fact they throw in elements of sludge. The "My War" album by Black Flag is sludgy and doomy..would you compare that with BB King?..double edged sword my friend...Also,No Norma Jean is not a Pure Hardcore Band by Oldschool Standards...but they're a hybrid of Metal/Hardcore/Noise/Punk....Personally i dont like Norma Jean all that much...they're mediocre and only care about cashing in on The Metalcore Trend...not to mention a total rip off of a good ol band called Coalesce (RIP)...but i'll be unbiased and say Norma Jean DID come from the hardcore scene but sold out...and btw about metalcore as a whole...i think its obvious that it spawned from Punk and Metal (crossover) anyone that knows anything about Punk and Metal music....already knows this...hence why i left it out..

...sorry to interrupt but I've always wondered this- Is Pennywise hardcore? Their older stuff...

Oh yeah I knew that they still had the hardcore punk elements, its just they we're moving away from the stagnant pool of things and adding to their previous sounds. I agree as well that what they did with the music is very amazing and unique, as well as highly influential in the grand scheme of things.

And you were right that was a pretty double edge sword I put there, cause in the end that was a pretty absurd thing I was throwing out. So I'll give it to you. I've only listened to a few Norma Jean songs, I personally didn't hear the sludge elements, but it might just be the stuff I heard. Its just all I hear is how they are the new "hardcore". I just don't see how you can compare what they are with the old stuff. Atleast you showed some valid proof for it. And you know what sludge is so atleast that shows you know something about music. I would just like to throw out though that people I've listened to think metalcore is like something new. Some people don't know its suppose to be an amalgamation of punk and metal. Then again check out old metalcore acts like D.R.I and compare that to what people call metalcore now adays (Trivium or As I Lay Dying). People just lump it all together and think it sucks as you can see throughout these forums. I just don't like the new stuff. Being trendy isn't what hardcore punk or metal is about. Niether of these genres should be mainstream, since they were founded on being anti-society and/or anti-coporate. I wish that people would still try to make music the way Black Flag did, not looking for a quick buck, but wanting to do it for just doing it. And to me that mentality is lost, and is barely resurrected. You have to be into the very underground to find that. Or you could just be into the stuff that no one even knows about anymore like Buzzoven or as you listed for hardcore: Mentioned Jawbreaker, Dag Nasty, Kill Your Idols, Or Negative Approach. I only know two of those bands you listed, if you asked the "hardcore" kids of today who that was would they have a clue?

By the way, I'm content for a second time knowing somone else in the world listens to and knows the same music I do. And that can actually talk/ debate it.

pennywise is punk.

I feel stupid now...

I guess they were mentioned, but try Sick Of It All

deuce...likewise man...you aside from a few people that post on MS (mainly tHE alternative metal forums) are probably the only people on MS that dont annoy the shit out of me with their Tr00 shit...i totally agree with your opinions on the Modern hardcore/metalcore scene...however you just gotta dig deeper...there's good metalcore bands...like Drowningman...Lickgoldensky.Cavity...and pyroprechaun, Bitter cold is right..Pennywise is Punk....but dont feel stupid,because they do have some melodic hardcore elements in alot of their songs

Love your signature dude ha ha

Written by [user id=14603] on 02.08.2006 at 16:00

Love your signature dude ha ha

haha what can i say?, Me and Those Good Ol "Kvlt" Boys that Post on The Extreme Metal Threads are Trading off Vices...and these vices are i dont know what brand of Toilet Paper Windir uses to wipe their asses with ,and the true metalheads think G -Spot is a "shitty Poser Nu Metal Band"

Currently listening to AFI (giving a try to my boyfriend's musical tastes). I am not really familiar with the genre but I have the feeling they were rather hardcore, at least iin their ealier works. Or is it mere punk?? Anyway I enjoyed what I've heard, in particular the old stuff (their latest material sounds too mellow IMO).

Their first album could maybe be consider hardcore if you were very leniant when I think of hardcore I think of a band named the Circle Jerks if you don't knwo them you should check them out they're like an old school hardcore supergroup. Another great hardcore band is the Exploited. I'm not much of a fan of that shit they try to pass off as hardcore these days because it's not the same as it used to be.