Not only was Tragic Idol woefully bland on just about every level, it had the disadvantage of wanting to be nostalgic as well which basically resulted a feeble pastiche of old sounds from the band. Worthless.

PL is pretty much dead which can be noticed by the number of people attending their shows nowadays.
The number has steadily been on the decline ever since One Second. It hit an all-time low on their last tour in support of Tragic Idol. They couldn't even sell-out venues with a capacity of 500 people anymore and that in a coutnry that has Always been hugely into PL.
Here they now draw less people than they did when they had just released their debut album. Plus, live the band is totally woeful, even worse than on their newer albums.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 21.01.2014 at 12:00

PL is pretty much dead which can be noticed by the number of people attending their shows nowadays.
The number has steadily been on the decline ever since One Second. It hit an all-time low on their last tour in support of Tragic Idol. They couldn't even sell-out venues with a capacity of 500 people anymore and that in a coutnry that has Always been hugely into PL.
Here they now draw less people than they did when they had just released their debut album. Plus, live the band is totally woeful, even worse than on their newer albums.

Can't say I'm surprised. Even if I was a huge fan of them nowadays I probably wouldn't attend their gigs either. Terribly boring.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 21.01.2014 at 12:00

PL is pretty much dead which can be noticed by the number of people attending their shows nowadays.
The number has steadily been on the decline ever since One Second. It hit an all-time low on their last tour in support of Tragic Idol. They couldn't even sell-out venues with a capacity of 500 people anymore and that in a coutnry that has Always been hugely into PL.
Here they now draw less people than they did when they had just released their debut album. Plus, live the band is totally woeful, even worse than on their newer albums.

Maybe, but in Eastern Europe they retain their fan-base. I've seen them a couple of times in different countries, venues were sold-out. I had a hard time getting a ticket. Same thing with MDB or Anathema. They might've lost their fan-base in Western Europe, but they still have a loyal fan-base in Eastern Europe. For example, MDB in Romania always had sold-out venues and they've been a constant presence ever since 2006 or 2007. At Artmania Festival, MDB is the only band that came 3 times in just 7 years. There is a huge demand for this band and the same thing can be said about PL. Aside from Eastern Europe, I think that they're also popular in Latin America.

It depends on the region though.

"Plus, live the band is totally woeful, even worse than on their newer albums." Now this is just worthless exageration. I get it that you do not like the current PL, but you don't need to badmouth everything about them. I've seen them in the past 5-6 years a lot of times. I also have their Draconian Times MMXI DVD. They might not be as fresh and clear as in their prime time, but Nick still sings incredibly good even after all these years and the chemistry within the band is fantastic.

I have seen them loads of times as well over the past couple of years and especially the Draconian Times show was a disgrace. The dvd sounds great but that one has been tinkered with so immensely much it isn't even funny. Draconian Times they really did fuck up live, with loads of mistakes. The guitaring was totally off and Nick's vocals have been horrible live for years now.

Virtually all "live" music DVDs are altered in post-production. You can guarantee that what you're hearing on the DVD is not what you would have heard at the gig. All mistakes corrected, sound levels changed and balanced etc.

Written by [user id=4365] on 21.01.2014 at 13:46

Virtually all "live" music DVDs are altered in post-production. You can guarantee that what you're hearing on the DVD is not what you would have heard at the gig. All mistakes corrected, sound levels changed and balanced etc.

True, but in the case of the Draconian Times one it was extremely obvious.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 21.01.2014 at 13:34

I have seen them loads of times as well over the past couple of years and especially the Draconian Times show was a disgrace. The dvd sounds great but that one has been tinkered with so immensely much it isn't even funny. Draconian Times they really did fuck up live, with loads of mistakes. The guitaring was totally off and Nick's vocals have been horrible live for years now.

Every band has its good shows and bad shows. When I've seen them, I did not notice such differences and I liked Nick's voice. I do not know how it would've been like 10-15 years ago, but it complements the new records and it still nails the past ones too.

I've seen them live last year in Utrecht Tivoli Oude Gracht and like Marcel knows it's a pretty small venue, but it wasn't even sold out. I liked their show, but I'd say it was a good at best performance. It was the first time I saw them so I couldn't compare it to anything else. Suffice to say I wasn't blown away, nor was I disappointed. The only really disappointing show I recall right now was Lake of Tears in 2012 here in Tilburg (along with Moonspell, Swallow the Sun etc.). The vocals were absolutely terrible, as they sounded nothing what they should've sounded like. The vocalists apparently lost the ability to sing clearly (like is heard on Forever Autumn), which is a damn shame because that vocal style was great.

Written by Erik M. on 21.01.2014 at 22:30

I've seen them live last year in Utrecht Tivoli Oude Gracht and like Marcel knows it's a pretty small venue, but it wasn't even sold out. I liked their show, but I'd say it was a good at best performance. It was the first time I saw them so I couldn't compare it to anything else. Suffice to say I wasn't blown away, nor was I disappointed. The only really disappointing show I recall right now was Lake of Tears in 2012 here in Tilburg (along with Moonspell, Swallow the Sun etc.). The vocals were absolutely terrible, as they sounded nothing what they should've sounded like. The vocalists apparently lost the ability to sing clearly (like is heard on Forever Autumn), which is a damn shame because that vocal style was great.

Yeah, Lake of Tears is just lame nowadays. But PL still can make a decent live performance. Sure, nothing mind blowing, and definitely not as good and impressive as MDB (Aaron maintained his voice, both clean and harsh, cheers to him!) but decent. Still, Lake of Tears has an abnormal cult following in my country. I mean, I think I've seen them doing a gig here almost every year ever since 2005. A constant presence at festivals, even at club gigs, I don't get it why, since the guys definitely suck now... The former death/doom pioneers have a strong cult following in Eastern Europe for some reason.

Written by deadone on 22.01.2014 at 00:09

I don't go to shows in Europe (or even much in Australia any more due to kid).

But are they filling venues?

I read somewhere that concert attendances are down in Europe primarily due to the increased popularity of festivals.

Is this true?

Some anecdotal evidence is that bands don't seem to tour much on their own these days. It's not lie the 1980s or early 90s when abnds did years of touring.

In Australia they turn up for festivals only a lot of the time (Soundwave) and don't do indepdendent tours at all.

Festivals do draw away from a lot of club shows. But nowadays there are way more people going to concerts (festivals, stdiums,. clubs) than ever before.
And band do tour here as often as in the Eighties and Nineties, if not more so. Every weekend I can choose between loads of gigs i clubs and also during the week.

But non-Australian bands don't tour Australia because of the travelling expenses involved. And that has always been the case.

Written by TheMAGAmvm on 21.01.2014 at 23:18

Yeah, Lake of Tears is just lame nowadays. But PL still can make a decent live performance. Sure, nothing mind blowing, and definitely not as good and impressive as MDB (Aaron maintained his voice, both clean and harsh, cheers to him!) but decent. Still, Lake of Tears has an abnormal cult following in my country. I mean, I think I've seen them doing a gig here almost every year ever since 2005. A constant presence at festivals, even at club gigs, I don't get it why, since the guys definitely suck now... The former death/doom pioneers have a strong cult following in Eastern Europe for some reason.

I've only seen MDB twice and I was blown away the first time I saw them. What a great performance he gives... it seems he truly ignores the audience because he doesn't seem to care about them when crawling on the ground pathetically (not in a bad way of course). And yeah, he definitely still has great vocals, no doubt about that. Too bad musically they aren't that awesome as they used to be. And yeah, I agree about Lake of Tears. Their early albums are great so it's a shame we can't enjoy those in their full glory anymore. What former death doom pioneers? I hope you're talking about MDB, because Lake of Tears aren't death doom pioneers at all.

Written by Erik M. on 22.01.2014 at 00:45

Written by TheMAGAmvm on 21.01.2014 at 23:18

Yeah, Lake of Tears is just lame nowadays. But PL still can make a decent live performance. Sure, nothing mind blowing, and definitely not as good and impressive as MDB (Aaron maintained his voice, both clean and harsh, cheers to him!) but decent. Still, Lake of Tears has an abnormal cult following in my country. I mean, I think I've seen them doing a gig here almost every year ever since 2005. A constant presence at festivals, even at club gigs, I don't get it why, since the guys definitely suck now... The former death/doom pioneers have a strong cult following in Eastern Europe for some reason.

I've only seen MDB twice and I was blown away the first time I saw them. What a great performance he gives... it seems he truly ignores the audience because he doesn't seem to care about them when crawling on the ground pathetically (not in a bad way of course). And yeah, he definitely still has great vocals, no doubt about that. Too bad musically they aren't that awesome as they used to be. And yeah, I agree about Lake of Tears. Their early albums are great so it's a shame we can't enjoy those in their full glory anymore. What former death doom pioneers? I hope you're talking about MDB, because Lake of Tears aren't death doom pioneers at all.

Yeah, was talking about MDB and of course the other ones too, PL, Anathema, Katatonia...

Katatonia death doom pioneers?

They did play death doom but pioneers they weren't. That would be like calling Saturnus and Officium Triste pioneers of the death doom genre.

Written by TheMAGAmvm on 22.01.2014 at 01:43

Yeah, was talking about MDB and of course the other ones too, PL, Anathema, Katatonia...

MDB and PL, definitely. Anathema maybe, because of Serenades and especially The Silent Enigma. Those are the only two death doom albums they made, sadly. Katatonia only has Brave Murder Day and while it's a masterpiece it probably didn't have such a big influence on the death doom genre because it's from 1996, whereas the true pioneer albums in death doom were released between 1990 and 1994. MDB has two full length albums and three EP's before 1995 that were all death doom, so they were probably very influential. Then, with The Angel and the Dark River, the true gothic kicked in and they were pretty gothic doom for a couple of years, until the end of the decade when they released The Light at the End of the World. Since then, they've mostly been a mix of doom, death and gothic, just like Aaron himself stated in interviews. Lastly, PL were only truly death doom on their first two albums and Shades of God was death doom with gothic elements. Icon and everything after Icon are NOT death doom at all, despite MS labelling those albums death doom.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 22.01.2014 at 11:47

Katatonia death doom pioneers?

They did play death doom but pioneers they weren't. That would be like calling Saturnus and Officium Triste pioneers of the death doom genre.

Yep, too bad Paradise Belongs to You wasn't released 2-3 years earlier. Then it would've definitely been a true pioneer in the atmospheric death doom genre.

Btw, most people always considered Dance of December Souls to be blackened doom. But I think there's a fair share of death in there too. What do you think?

Written by Erik M. on 22.01.2014 at 21:20

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 22.01.2014 at 11:47

Katatonia death doom pioneers?

They did play death doom but pioneers they weren't. That would be like calling Saturnus and Officium Triste pioneers of the death doom genre.

Yep, too bad Paradise Belongs to You wasn't released 2-3 years earlier. Then it would've definitely been a true pioneer in the atmospheric death doom genre.

Btw, most people always considered Dance of December Souls to be blackened doom. But I think there's a fair share of death in there too. What do you think?

Dance Of December Souls primarily black doom. Wouldn't call it death doom at all.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 23.01.2014 at 14:47

Dance Of December Souls primarily black doom. Wouldn't call it death doom at all.

I meant that it's rather blackened doom with some death elements, but judging from your reply I figure that there aren't many (if any) death elements in that album. It's a while ago since I listened to it, so it's hard to say.

This could almost be my list - if you flip it upside down

Written by Aristarchos on 25.02.2014 at 10:44

This could almost be my list - if you flip it upside down

What do you mean? With Gothic at the bottom?

Written by TheMAGAmvm on 25.02.2014 at 11:06

Written by Aristarchos on 25.02.2014 at 10:44

This could almost be my list - if you flip it upside down

What do you mean? With Gothic at the bottom?

At least Believe In Nothing is my favourite, and then Lost Paradise and Host.

I wouldn't say Gothic is their worse album though, but none of my definitive favourites.

Written by Aristarchos on 25.02.2014 at 11:53

I wouldn't say Gothic is their worse album though, but none of my definitive favourites.

But which is your favorite though? Until now I only heard that LP is their best, though I find it odd since out of all death/doom records, this one is one of the weakest, maybe beaten only by Anathema's debut.

Edit: Sorry, I did not see the other post.

Believe in Nothing and Host are weak albums, quality wise. I placed Host over LP and the other one simply because I like Depeche Mode and this one resembled in several moments that band. But placing these three over Shades of God, Gothic, Draconian Times or even their latest ones, quality wise is just ridiculous.

Written by TheMAGAmvm on 25.02.2014 at 11:55

Believe in Nothing and Host are weak albums, quality wise. I placed Host over LP and the other one simply because I like Depeche Mode and this one resembled in several moments that band. But placing these three over Shades of God, Gothic, Draconian Times or even their latest ones, quality wise is just ridiculous.

I know not many people agree with me, but that is at least my opinion.