So much input in only a few days! But this whole mess is absurd... what are the numbers, 2,000 dead or so? In the War with Iraq the numbers have only reached around 4,000 American Soldiers and thats been going on for a few years now! A few days and they have that many dead?!

Bush won't bring the US in, they've already stated it, but Georgia wants to join NATO. It is true 'we' had forces in Georgia, don't know the reason, but US was definitely involved in training Georgian forces some time ago. My old Staff Sergeant was there in fact.

The last thing I heard is that Bush and Cheney called for the two countries to 'sit down and talk it out'. Good luck with that....

Medvedev just stated the following:

Based on your report I have taken a decision to stop the operation on forcing Georgian authorities to peace.The aim of the operation is reached, security of our peacekeepers and civil population is restored. The aggressot is punished , and bore major losses. Its military forces are demoralized. Nevertheless in case aggressive aspirations continue , take a decision of extermination it.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 12.08.2008 at 13:31

Medvedev just stated the following:

Based on your report I have taken a decision to stop the operation on forcing Georgian authorities to peace.The aim of the operation is reached, security of our peacekeepers and civil population is restored. The aggressot is punished , and bore major losses. Its military forces are demoralized. Nevertheless in case aggressive aspirations continue , take a decision of extermination it.

You lost me at the last part of this quote? MEANING: ExterminatiNG it?! What would they do, blow the whole damn country up, no freaking way!

Stalker, atacking to country it shood be before those forces against what wanna attack are week
Wanna get Tibet independnt shood attack to China i 50ties, wanna destroy Iran, attack before Homenhi was in rulle, or eliminate him when he was leader, same whit Nord Korea and such countries, wanna eliminate next enemy do it when he is week

Written by TheBigRossowski on 12.08.2008 at 13:33

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 12.08.2008 at 13:31

Medvedev just stated the following:

Based on your report I have taken a decision to stop the operation on forcing Georgian authorities to peace.The aim of the operation is reached, security of our peacekeepers and civil population is restored. The aggressot is punished , and bore major losses. Its military forces are demoralized. Nevertheless in case aggressive aspirations continue , take a decision of extermination it.

You lost me at the last part of this quote? MEANING: ExterminatiNG it?! What would they do, blow the whole damn country up, no freaking way!

Hahaha I just copy pasted this from AP... yes "exterminating it.""extreminating the aggressive aspirations" is what he said in Russian apparently.

Written by Bad English on 12.08.2008 at 13:34

Stalker, atacking to country it shood be before those forces against what wanna attack are week
Wanna get Tibet independnt shood attack to China i 50ties, wanna destroy Iran, attack before Homenhi was in rulle, or eliminate him when he was leader, same whit Nord Korea and such countries, wanna eliminate next enemy do it when he is week

This is off-topic, next time you go off-topic again I will delete your posts/

Incidentally, why the fuck is George Bush telling Russia what to do? And does he really think that Russia will give a damn? I mean, I know it would be desirable to have an immediate end to this conflict, but jeez, all Bush is doing is aggravating the Russians further.

Written by Bad English on 12.08.2008 at 12:26


Civil war un Yugo

it wasn't Civil WAR

Written by Judas on 12.08.2008 at 17:10

Incidentally, why the fuck is George Bush telling Russia what to do? And does he really think that Russia will give a damn? I mean, I know it would be desirable to have an immediate end to this conflict, but jeez, all Bush is doing is aggravating the Russians further.

It is not only Bush doing that, also Sarkozy and many more European leaders.

imo it was just a fine example of "test" - USA is testing, how will Russia react in such situations to discover the "borders" what they can afford and what will already be "to excess"...and they made certain of Russia isnt any cock-shot anymore

I think the one who is testing the other Is not USA, but Russia. Georgia is a good opportunity for Russia to test how EU, USA and other countries and organizations react to this kind of aggression. At the moment we have only seen words - words that haven't had any real result. So, Russia has a free pass to do what he likes. Yes Medvedev stated that he ordered to stop fighting, but I read that Russia still keeps bombing. And who really knows what is happening in the Georgian boarders - did or would Russia allow UN people there - I doubt that, and that is another point why there is something wrong. The whole Russian side talk has been very double-faced from the beginning. I saw it in Estonia a year ago and I see it now again. I guess there is only one thing to ask - who is next?

Written by UnholyMenace on 12.08.2008 at 22:07

I think the one who is testing the other Is not USA, but Russia. Georgia is a good opportunity for Russia to test how EU, USA and other countries and organizations react to this kind of aggression. At the moment we have only seen words - words that haven't had any real result. So, Russia has a free pass to do what he likes. Yes Medvedev stated that he ordered to stop fighting, but I read that Russia still keeps bombing. And who really knows what is happening in the Georgian boarders - did or would Russia allow UN people there - I doubt that, and that is another point why there is something wrong. The whole Russian side talk has been very double-faced from the beginning. I saw it in Estonia a year ago and I see it now again. I guess there is only one thing to ask - who is next?

You might have a point there, though remember that Georgia started the war, not Russia. But of course, it would be foolish of Russia not taking advantage of the situation.

I doubt Russians need such "tests", they know what they can do, and that they are one of 2 worlds major forces, and one of the few countries in the world actually capable of fighting war, so I doubt they need testing for such things...

I don't know who started the war, because there haven't been any real information about it. One side is saying one, the other one the other. Russia says that Georgia started the war by bombing Ossetian villages. Georgia in the other hand says that Russia started the war by triggering the attack. Who is right, I don't know. But the fact is that Russia has triggered something for a while now - remember the aircraft that Russian aircraft took down few moths ago - they basically took down a Georgian aircraft in Georgian airspace.

I think the actual thing at the moment isn't who started the war, but what are they willing to do to end it.

Like I said in my previous post, Russian dictators are very good at false propaganda. According to some of them, they aren't even really involved in any war- it's a genocide of Ossetians and they are the independent peace keepers.

Who started it is a hard question. Yes, the Georgian army moved in. Yes, they used heavy force. It might have been wrong. But did they do mass slaughter? Doubt it. I think that in the beginning of one of the Chechen wars, the Russians blew up some buildings and claimed that Chechen did it. A good cause of war. It is an old tactic.

The conflict in South Ossetia has been long. There is a reason, why the Georgians sent the army there, and let's not forget, though it is de facto independent, it is part of Georgia. The situation was getting out of hands. There are paramilitarist groups rebelling, battles between Ossetian and Georgian villages. Some time ago, Georgia offered a good autonomy deal. Ossetia refused. Why? Probably because the Russians had some other plans.

The full scale attack over all Georgia isn't just a peace operation. It was prepared. Why else are there special strike groups and north caucasian mercenaries? We can't tell who and how started it, but it is certain that Russian agents have heated the conflict for years.

I read that the Russian army officers are teached by the books of a man who publicly claims that Russia needs to take back
"what belongs to them". Russia has declared, that they will always control Caucasia. Their imperialistic plans include also Baltics and West-Ukraine, but we have moved too west to be so easily conquered.

Written by Bad English on 12.08.2008 at 13:34

Stalker, atacking to country it shood be before those forces against what wanna attack are week
Wanna get Tibet independnt shood attack to China i 50ties, wanna destroy Iran, attack before Homenhi was in rulle, or eliminate him when he was leader, same whit Nord Korea and such countries, wanna eliminate next enemy do it when he is week

hey k7, i've seen you before encouraging war against those countries and ignored 'em but again i see you here doing the same thing, well...i havent seen anyone from china or north korea here and i'm not going to talk about 'em BUT plz don't contiue that with iran!!!
i don't think the solution to the problem of iran's islamic regime is a war, i mean it can better be handled from the inside by irainians themselves and unfortunately it's much more complicated than just assassinating the leader or such things...
ok, i won't go further into iran's political issues cos i don't wanna be more off-topic.

Written by UnholyMenace on 12.08.2008 at 22:07

I guess there is only one thing to ask - who is next?

Seems that our politicians and our one-sided media and the poor lumpen are crying and begging for Estonia to be the next blossom to be plucked....even if that wouldn't happen, I fear that we'd choose all possible ways to invite Russia on us just to show that "We were right bout them being assholes!"

I personally believe that we should keep as calm and polite and positive relations with Russia as possible instead of wailing all the time "Russia is the reason of the loss of Estonian independence since the birth of Christ/Russia is the cause of shitty weather in Estonia/Russia is the cause of Estonian cows giving too little milk etc..." and pointing out most negative things wherever possible...

The media of the western Europe btw is more neutral....they do condemn Russia using force in such cruel way but they do reconsider and view things from another angle as well....of course here that's impossible...Once more, I see people gathering up and going to riot and cry "WE SUPPORT GEORGIA!" and stuff....

I ask WHERE were we when Kosovo was taken from Serbia? Serbia has total rights for Kosovo just like Georgia has the rights for S-Ossetia (and not Abkhazia btw because Abkhaz ethnicity is native to Abkhazia unlike Ossetians who emigrated from the Northern Osserian Republic)...Why not anyhow? Because our media never lit these issues...all our media expressed was that US supports Albanian muslims and what ever US does is right plus Serbians are Slavs which automatically causes the tsukhnas of Estonia to think that "Since all slavs are retarded apes, we'll clap hands whenever they're fucked!"

Now to continue with the topic....I'd be very glad seeing the big bear Russia quitting the violence in Georgia. I hope Georgia will be able to solve these problems and I seriously hope that everything will end up positively.
Also I think our pro-US attitude should be reduced a great deal. We're Europe after all and we must make our own internal ties stronger (after all this was what everyone wished...to get to the EU) and remember that EU and Russia are more important here than any US thingy...if we'll remain bitching bout Russia over and over again then mayb the Finns are right about us...that we'll burn in a decade (God make that not happen)....but it's hard for me to believe that our attitude's would become much positive....last time 'twas when Finland and Russia announced they'd team up for a sports event then all the Estonian lumpen started calling "All Finnish people are whores and Russia-loving sluts! US, come and save us!"...ha ha...so sad...

Overall situation depicts world's double standards....the US and NATO and Russia allow whatever they will for themselves....it's sad when people take one side and then believe that if one does a crime, then it's justified for one side and not for the other....

Written by Jg1 on 12.08.2008 at 22:47

Russian dictators are very good at false propaganda.

western mass media are very good at false propaganda and manipulation as well...i am not saying Russians are holy, but if this war fire wasn't torched by Georgia intensively supported by USA, i will eat my metal cd collection

It seems Russia is saying this whole conflict is Georgia's fault. And it seems from the reading I've done (from that news article and some other sources) that it's true.
link: http://www.themoscowtimes.com/article/600/42/369764.htm

if anyone cares to correct me and give me some more details, would be appreciated.

i agree that Saakashvili made mistake, he thought he have good relationship with USA, who gives weapon and who trained Georgian Army, they even were on of rare countrys that haved avenue named by Bush WTF they were enteringUSA ass on any way they can......

Written by Ernis on 12.08.2008 at 23:26

I personally believe that we should keep as calm and polite and positive relations with Russia as possible instead of wailing all the time "Russia is the reason of the loss of Estonian independence since the birth of Christ/Russia is the cause of shitty weather in Estonia/Russia is the cause of Estonian cows giving too little milk etc..." and pointing out most negative things wherever possible...

In any time, has Estonia intervened into Russian domestic policy - "no!" Lets ask the same question about Russia. Only stupid didn't see that the riots in Tallinn were partly financed and planned by Russia. And Russian media during that time - it was mostly full of crap. So why should we trust Russian media today. As I understand, most of the media is influenced.

Written by Ernis on 12.08.2008 at 23:26

The media of the western Europe btw is more neutral....they do condemn Russia using force in such cruel way but they do reconsider and view things from another angle as well....of course here that's impossible...Once more, I see people gathering up and going to riot and cry "WE SUPPORT GEORGIA!" and stuff....

Where were western countries when Soviet Union annexed Estonia after the WWII? It is very easy to turn your back than take some actions. And I haven't said that Russia is the only one who is guilty in that conflict. As I said earlier, I would be very very surpised if Russia would allow UN officials and observers into the conflict area.

Western countries are usually quiet if the event doesn't influence them directly. The other reason why they are quiet may be because they depend upon Russian gas. Does Germany really want to worsen his relationship with a country that supply them with gas? I doubt it. Of course I my be a exaggerating a bit, but the idea still remains.

Quote:

Written by UnholyMenace on 13.08.2008 at 16:52

Where were western countries when Soviet Union annexed Estonia after the WWII? It is very easy to turn your back than take some actions. And I haven't said that Russia is the only one who is guilty in that conflict. As I said earlier, I would be very very surpised if Russia would allow UN officials and observers into the conflict area.

Western countries are usually quiet if the event doesn't influence them directly. The other reason why they are quiet may be because they depend upon Russian gas. Does Germany really want to worsen his relationship with a country that supply them with gas? I doubt it. Of course I my be a exaggerating a bit, but the idea still remains.

Western countries was no guts to show iron fist, there was one man who can do it , when I psot his name and something Jester Eddie get nuts
Western are afraid stop conflict and say something specely in Russia case, thay can say soemthing to Serbia, whatever, but Russia can not and I doubt ewer will

@K7.....I will.....nah, I won't feed ya t'day....

@UnholyMenace....I agree that media is influenced...a lot...
Concerning the riots because of the statue of a particular Estonian sportsman I personally say that I wouldn't have touched it and all the riots would never have occurred but unfortunately it was highly irritating that some little voices dug out the topic that it was DEVIL ITSELF and made the people lose every drop of common sense...I am very glad that this issue has calmed down now and I deeply hope that some people such as Liim and others will cut the crap and stop making more trouble....

Written by Ernis on 13.08.2008 at 17:31

Concerning the riots because of the statue of a particular Estonian sportsman I personally say that I wouldn't have touched it and all the riots would never have occurred but unfortunately it was highly irritating that some little voices dug out the topic that it was DEVIL ITSELF and made the people lose every drop of common sense...I am very glad that this issue has calmed down now and I deeply hope that some people such as Liim and others will cut the crap and stop making more trouble....

I think the thing was inevitable - just the timing was really bad. Thats all I have to say about this OT subject.

Written by UnholyMenace on 13.08.2008 at 17:47

Written by Ernis on 13.08.2008 at 17:31

Concerning the riots because of the statue of a particular Estonian sportsman I personally say that I wouldn't have touched it and all the riots would never have occurred but unfortunately it was highly irritating that some little voices dug out the topic that it was DEVIL ITSELF and made the people lose every drop of common sense...I am very glad that this issue has calmed down now and I deeply hope that some people such as Liim and others will cut the crap and stop making more trouble....

I think the thing was inevitable - just the timing was really bad. Thats all I have to say about this OT subject.

I agree here....

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/russo_georgian_war_and_balance_power - This is probably the best article about the conflict so far. There are some arguments explained I wrote about in my previous posts.

Written by Ellrohir on 13.08.2008 at 00:41

Written by Jg1 on 12.08.2008 at 22:47

Russian dictators are very good at false propaganda.

western mass media are very good at false propaganda and manipulation as well...i am not saying Russians are holy, but if this war fire wasn't torched by Georgia intensively supported by USA, i will eat my metal cd collection

USA has a legitimate ally in Georgia, a country which government represents western interests in an area usually associated with the struggle between the west and the east, that's logical and, as I said before, legitimate, and doesn't necessarily has to lead to to think of another conspiration theory in which USA is behind. This conflict is not really difficult to understand. It started with with a devastating attack of the Georgian forces to South Ossetia's capital city, which was followed by an even more brutal by the Russian forces, and we all know that Russia have political and economical interests in all that zone, and that was their reason to act. But for one time, this is a conflict in which the USA has nothing to do with... at least indirectly, because they had armed and trained the Georgian army, their ally in the Caucasus, which had been constantly in danger because of Russia, and this, once again, had been completely legitimate.

Written by Judas on 12.08.2008 at 17:10

Incidentally, why the fuck is George Bush telling Russia what to do? And does he really think that Russia will give a damn? I mean, I know it would be desirable to have an immediate end to this conflict, but jeez, all Bush is doing is aggravating the Russians further.

His representing his interests, that's all, and that's logical... after all... what has to do Russia in this conflict? what had to do Georgia in South Ossetia, a land that although officially belongs to Georgia, had been de facto independent since the fall of the USSR, with Georgian's governent not directly messing in their "internal" affairs? The only difference is that while what Bush and Sarkozy are making is diplomacy, Georgia and Russia looking after their respective interests through bombing.

Written by [user id=5080] on 15.08.2008 at 01:40

This conflict is not really difficult to understand. It started with with a devastating attack of the Georgian forces to South Ossetia's capital city

ok...why they attacked?

Written by Ellrohir on 15.08.2008 at 21:30

Written by [user id=5080] on 15.08.2008 at 01:40

This conflict is not really difficult to understand. It started with with a devastating attack of the Georgian forces to South Ossetia's capital city

ok...why they attacked?

because of some isolated attacks in south ossetia to Georgian policemen, but there was not a proportion between the damage done and Georgia's answer.