Just realised I shouldn't have highlighted Dio as an example, as they/he aren't extreme metal...

Written by X-Ray Rod on 13.05.2012 at 20:44

Written by BitterCOld on 13.05.2012 at 20:05
any ism has asshats who want to condemn others for their belief in a different ism.

Well, yeah... That's indeed true. I guess my problem is that I don't understand how such a basic right is just considered a belief.
Also... about the vicious circle: Do people think there's another way to get such rights than opposing the groups of people that don't tolerate such rights? Because I don't.

What I mean by the vicious circle is that when Christians makes certain groups angry, those groups do something that makes the Christians angry, then the Christians do something that in turn makes those groups angry again. i.e. the cycle repeats itself.

Written by [user id=20536] on 13.05.2012 at 21:07
What I mean by the vicious circle is that when Christians makes certain groups angry, those groups do something that makes the Christians angry, then the Christians do something that in turn makes those groups angry again. i.e. the cycle repeats itself.

Sometimes it seems like the only things some groups such as gay people do to make some religious people get angry is getting married in another state or make parades in order to give awareness of their right to get married... Which is something that shouldn't affect them as it's not their business. What is the thing that some religious people do in order to make the gays go angry? They ban marriage... and that DOES affect gays.

Written by Darth Satanious on 13.05.2012 at 14:37

Written by [user id=5630] on 13.05.2012 at 00:44

Forgive me for derailing the thread like this, but Darth Satanious? I thought you were gone forever!

Hell no dude. XD I just took some break to focus in some things in my life but as long as I have hearing capacity I'll listen Metal and thus drop by in here once in a while. I am glad that someone recognized me back, Insineratehymn, right? :p

The one and the same. I changed my username in order to reflect my changing views of the world. Much has changed since you left. For example, I run a blog now. [/shamelesswhoring]

@Mr. Doctor: Again, agreed. Gay people make Christians angry by merely existing. And by wanting equal rights with straight people. They do not actively repress Christians. Many Christians, however do repress and persecute gay people. Fighting oppression doesn't make you as bad as the oppressor.

Written by Angelic Storm on 13.05.2012 at 22:19

@Mr. Doctor: Again, agreed. Gay people make Christians (the crazy kind) angry by merely existing.

Just fixing your post a little bit. But yeah, I agree with your post. Specially the last sentence.

Written by X-Ray Rod on 13.05.2012 at 22:34
Just fixing your post a little bit. But yeah, I agree with your post. Specially the last sentence.

Yep, I can see why you did that, though I was generalising rather than stating an absolute. lol Guess it's better to make that clear though just to prevent any misunderstandings.

Written by Angelic Storm on 13.05.2012 at 22:46
Guess it's better to make that clear though just to prevent any misunderstandings.

It's indeed very easy to create such misunderstandings... Specially on the internet

Written by X-Ray Rod on 13.05.2012 at 22:49
It's indeed very easy to create such misunderstandings... Specially on the internet

That is very true, as I know only too well...

Written by BitterCOld on 13.05.2012 at 20:05

safe target for sheep in wolf's clothing.

So what are better targets? A lot of metal comes from the West, where Christianity has played a huge role in history and continues to today. Perhaps it is the easiest target because it influences so much bigoted, ignorant legislation? Because so much of it dominates the media and half of the voting population in America? Which leads to the previous statement, where people are relegated to second class citizens (don't get the same rights because of sexual orientation) and the cycle of poverty is made worse by poor policy decisions (no contraception, no abortion, no welfare)? I understand not all Christians are against gay marriage, evolution, contraception, etc. but now that I live in Arizona I find it hard to simply ignore people who use religious convictions to create and pass legislation.

Written by X-Ray Rod on 13.05.2012 at 21:45

Sometimes it seems like the only things some groups such as gay people do to make some religious people get angry is getting married in another state or make parades in order to give awareness of their right to get married... Which is something that shouldn't affect them as it's not their business. What is the thing that some religious people do in order to make the gays go angry? They ban marriage... and that DOES affect gays.

You are kind of changing the topic of this discussion. We're talking about Christianity and Satanism here in reference to the vicious cycle.

Cormorant. Musically they kick ass, and lyrically they take a mature subtle path against religion.

"Wars keep the vultures fed.
Friends and foes, all extinguished:
Mother Nature can't distinguish
between a killer and a priest.

Heroes are the victor's butchers,
all their rapes and all their tortures
cleansed by rains of gold and years of rot.
The human God mirrors the human brain.
Pray for power and material gain,
so the rich die old, and the poor die shot."

Clint W. is right. Christianity is not a "safe" target, it is a legitimate target, when it is used to justify descriminatory legislation against oppressed minorities who are harming no-one by simply being themselves. Church and religion should be kept seperate from politics. If religion has a position of power where it's influence can be used to oppress and criminalise people, then it is perfectly legitimate to attack it. This goes for all religions, not just Christianity.

Well, for starters - to me christianity and church (catolic, lutherian whatever) are two separate things. Church does so much things, that they shoudn't do- according to bible I mean. Do they really follow the example of a person that they worship? Or his followers? They didn't carry signs on the streets, that gay people are wrong and should go to hell. They didn't try to build huge fancy buildings, where people should go to listen to them - instead, they went to places where common people meet. Jesus himself told his followers; 'You are not part of this world'. They didn't have to go to war no more, or carry weapons. Israel wasn't anymore god's land, or something to fight for. Their 'Israel' should be in heaven for now on. At the same time he told, that they should pay taxes and be good citizens. Jesus' followers at the first century didn't participate on Roman or Jewish politics.

Modern church is linked to politics and goverment -> and at the worst case scenario, this leads church being linked to violence, ethnic cleansings and war (as we have noticed throughout the centuries). Two christian countries goes to war against each other, and both homefront's priests are praying for same God, that if he could save their young soldiers, and help to kill others. In WW2, church and nazis where close friends, and church basically give their blessing to holocaust. Or at least closed their eyes. And, what comes to gay people's rights - for example in my country gay people have same rights as others, to register their partnership as official in civil wedding. That's the law, and they are legally treated as a married couple. But, now they also want church wedding, like everyone else. And now we have a debat on our hands, that should covernment force church to bless gay people's marriage by law - since lutherian church and covernment are both linked together as official instances which are guided by law, and covenment collects 'churchtaxes' for every registered lutherian citizen?

These things, that we see every day on church's actions has got nothing to do with basic meaning of being christian. Church is acting like those people and instances that put Jesus to cross in first century. They loved power, and wealth, and were extremely hypocrite. This doesn't of course mean, that individual that belongs to church could not be honest, loving, misjudging and good hearted person. But there's certainly something terrible wrong on that 'christian' instance called church as a whole - for bible point, and basic message of christianity point of view.

---------

Oh yes, the music. Yes, there are bands that deny god, critisize god, mock him and all that. So do these musicians believe him or not? How you can attack on someone, that doesn't exist? Or is it basically attacking the image, that somebody else has told you to be 'the truth about god'? If you don't agreed to that image, you should attack to these people - or instances. As for few things that i wrote about above, there's tons of reasons to attack, laugh or deny for example church itself. Music to me is more atmosphere than words. Instruments, groove, crushing kick ass riffs and all that. I don't have to 100% agree with every band's, or musicians opinions, so that I could enjoy their music. In most cases, many of their opinions are understandable for their point of view. Some of that cheesy stuff like in death metal is pure comic, like watching good bad 80' horror movie. I don't think, that all the stuff should be taken dead seriously, that are not ment to be.

I enjoy black metal, death metal, and many kinds of extreme metal - mostly for the musically reasons. Some bands attitude against god doesn't just suit for me - in cases if being against god is whole point of their music, the ONLY point. Gorgoroth, MayheM, and Deicide comes to mind. I just can't enjoy them - and it's not that they are too evil, or extreme for me. More like repulsive and boring. I like filosophical approach on Atheist and Death for example. They leave some questions open. And many doom bands also comes to mind, like Candlemass. But these are not necessity - hell, Bolt Thrower make songs about war. And they kick ass, and music is fantastic. I don't still any way fancy war. And I don't think that they dont' either.

Written by [user id=5630] on 13.05.2012 at 21:49

Written by Darth Satanious on 13.05.2012 at 14:37

Written by [user id=5630] on 13.05.2012 at 00:44

Forgive me for derailing the thread like this, but Darth Satanious? I thought you were gone forever!

Hell no dude. XD I just took some break to focus in some things in my life but as long as I have hearing capacity I'll listen Metal and thus drop by in here once in a while. I am glad that someone recognized me back, Insineratehymn, right? :p

The one and the same. I changed my username in order to reflect my changing views of the world. Much has changed since you left. For example, I run a blog now. [/shamelesswhoring]

Seems your kinda busy nowadays. I'll check your blog out when I get the chance.

@Everyone: Hey guys, I am loving the conversation and all but some of it is getting kind of offtopic. I wouldn't mind it but I bet wrathchild is considering right now whether or not to close the thread. lol Anyways, lets argue about whether the individual bands deserve respect or not, and let us settle the other differences the old fashioned way: burning each others' churches/houses.

I have no problem with someones religion, but at the same time i am not a big fan of organized religion be it christianity or whatever. the reason being organized religion takes on a cult like status of brainwashing that becomes kind a nutty IMO. so i have no problems with bands wanting to take pot shots at any religion, but sometimes it does come off as kinda silly IMO

Let Mr Nergal take the stage.

Written by Thyroid on 14.05.2012 at 02:48

I agree with you, sir! Except the Lutherian bits - I didn't completely understand that. I take it that's a Finnish specific? Not something I can grasp as a non-tither here in NZ.

I do think people should put less emphasis on "finding a target", and on making attacking words or actions. One of the best things I've read online, must be almost ten years ago now, was a short forum post about the nature of generalizations. Rarely are they very good. Just try not to use 'em so much, is all I wish. Why? The above posts about "vicious cycle", and the back-and-forth between Mr. Doctor and Angelic are a good demonstration, IMO.

Who knows, for example, just how "[anti-]Christian" the members of Trouble, Slayer, Dio, Deicide or Behemoth are? Black Sabbath or Jethro Tull, even? Believer and Forbidden? It's all entirely down to the individual. Not the band, not necessarily their fans, and not at all necessarily whichever church "claims" them, or to which they supposedly belong. No, it's all individual. I would say things only get worse (now talking outside of the world of music), when [non-]believers band together, but that's a generalization and so it's probably wrong.

To answer the original question: I like Immol and Anata. Last time I looked on M-A they were listed as DM bands with anti-C lyrics, and AFAIK their members are not convicted murderers or arsonists. Also Dãm, if this "pigeon-hole" is appropriate for them. I hope all three continue their legacy of great albums before 2016. On earth, in hell, or inside the hellish core of Earth after 2012 kills us all. Wherever. Good music shall reign!

Written by Syk on 14.05.2012 at 11:39

Believer

Extremely Christian. Met them a couple of times back in the day.

Written by Syk on 14.05.2012 at 11:39

Written by Thyroid on 14.05.2012 at 02:48

I agree with you, sir! Except the Lutherian bits - I didn't completely understand that. I take it that's a Finnish specific? Not something I can grasp as a non-tither here in NZ.

Yes, lutherian church is finnish official religion guided by church law. 77,2% of all citizens are lutherians.

Emperor of course. I don't think I need to start listing their musical geniousity, but Ihsahn's badass attitude, "You all are just too weak", is damn cool.

Kudos for all other Norwegian fellas, too. I'm not that much into Varg's music, for one, but it's great to see how some people don't only talk jibberish, but make drastical actions. Where they a little overtop, they're still something.

Written by Thyroid on 14.05.2012 at 14:08

Written by Syk on 14.05.2012 at 11:39

Written by Thyroid on 14.05.2012 at 02:48

I agree with you, sir! Except the Lutherian bits - I didn't completely understand that. I take it that's a Finnish specific? Not something I can grasp as a non-tither here in NZ.

Yes, lutherian church is finnish official religion guided by church law. 77,2% of all citizens are lutherians.

77% of ALL Finnish people are registered with a church? Wow, unbelievably high for a modern western country.
IN 2000 only 38% of all Dutch citizens were registered believers and the expectation is that by 2020 it will be down to 28%

And the percentage of people going to church/synagogue/mosque/temple/whatever was already at a low 17% in 2009

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 14.05.2012 at 14:26
77% of ALL Finnish people are registered with a church? Wow, unbelievably high for a modern western country.

If I'm not getting my facts wrong. Many swedes get registered almost automatically... While many still being atheist when they grow up. Some are just too lazy to get their name erased so to speak.

Written by X-Ray Rod on 14.05.2012 at 17:09

Some are just too lazy to get their name erased so to speak.

Same here. Of the 38% registered to a church/etc. only 17% attend church/etc. And I am sure that of 17% a couple % (2 or 3 or so) don't even believe in anything. They attend because they live in a small town where they run a business and can't afford to lose clients.

Somewhere Void mentioned how bands castigate religious groups incessantly in their lyrics, outfits or whatever.

Here is this Israeli Band ORPHANED LAND Unifying Religious Groups.

/offtopic

Let's keep it on topic.

I listen to a lot of Black Metal. And a lot of it has satanic lyrics. When it comes to interesting lyrics, I would pick Deathspell Omega over Deicide any day, but in general I agree with their anti-christian stand.

To mee Christianity is not just a legitimate target, but a necessary one. But then that applies to all organised religion. It seems to me, that a lot of people uses religion as a way to absolve themselves from responsibility.
Mind you, this doesn´t apply to everyone. But a lot of people use it as an excuse to not think for themselves and not take responsibility for their own actions, as you can always find a verse in the Bible/ the Quran / the Thora that will justify your opinions/actions.
In my opinion organised religion encourages herd mentality.

Something worth opposing, I think.

I much prefer "Do what thou wilt" as long as I can add "and take responsibility for it".
If you slap someone in the face, that someone should slap you back. And you should know, that you got what was coming to you. That is the way of the world, and at least it makes sense to me.

Written by BitterCOld on 14.05.2012 at 19:44

Let's keep it on topic.

The OP asked not only who we respect but why. I thinks there's a legitimate case that can be made that you can't separate the two (bands vs. reasons) and I don't believe the OP meant them to be separated. If the moderators don't want a discussion about values and reasons then I suggest taking ".., and why?" out of the topic title.

And I noticed you made this comment only after you made your own "off-topic" comment and then ignored mine. You little sneak! Cheers.

Written by Clintagräm on 15.05.2012 at 02:36

Written by BitterCOld on 14.05.2012 at 19:44

Let's keep it on topic.

The OP asked not only who we respect but why. I thinks there's a legitimate case that can be made that you can't separate the two (bands vs. reasons) and I don't believe the OP meant them to be separated. If the moderators don't want a discussion about values and reasons then I suggest taking ".., and why?" out of the topic title.

And I noticed you made this comment only after you made your own "off-topic" comment and then ignored mine. You little sneak! Cheers.

yeah, i did not anticipate a total thread derailment into NC voting patterns... band and reasons, great, but i believe there is a discussion in the serious part of the forum for longer discussions on Christian (or other ism) values. Let's keep to music in the music forum.

Written by BitterCOld on 15.05.2012 at 02:52

Written by Clintagräm on 15.05.2012 at 02:36

Written by BitterCOld on 14.05.2012 at 19:44

Let's keep it on topic.

The OP asked not only who we respect but why. I thinks there's a legitimate case that can be made that you can't separate the two (bands vs. reasons) and I don't believe the OP meant them to be separated. If the moderators don't want a discussion about values and reasons then I suggest taking ".., and why?" out of the topic title.

And I noticed you made this comment only after you made your own "off-topic" comment and then ignored mine. You little sneak! Cheers.

yeah, i did not anticipate a total thread derailment into NC voting patterns... band and reasons, great, but i believe there is a discussion in the serious part of the forum for longer discussions on Christian (or other ism) values. Let's keep to music in the music forum.

Agreed.

As for me, most likely Behemoth. I am biased yes, but the amount of time and effort they put into not only creating their music but touring is astounding. I really applaud them for being able to keep up the intensity, both physically and mentally. As for their message, it helped me to question a few things and find some interesting sources (Crowley and Magick) but its kind of the same rehashed message. Regardless, keep it up!