This album has no replay value. I sold it years ago, but for some reason after seeing that theres 4 reviews here creaming over the album, I might buy it again/download to see what I was missing...

This is freackin awesome album!

Discovered this album purely by accident. Pretty fucking insane.

Just listened to this album for the first time in awhile, while drunk as fuck i may add. Super fucking epic ass the first time i head it. Not a Fanboy, just a fan

Some tracks are pretty awesome, but I find myself snoozing a bit as it goes on, maybe it's the each song longer than the last structure... With the exception of the epic and black metallish 'Beautiful Death', whose opening riff is a lot like Unanimated's 'Depths of a Black Sea', which is sweet.

Listening to this right now.......fuckin amazing album,really is

After I dug myself out of the fondue pot, I found this album to be very mediocre.

Written by Boxcar Willy on 26.01.2012 at 05:46

After I dug myself out of the fondue pot

Puh-lease. One person goes overexagerating in comparing this album to something sugar-coated (if melodies are sugar coated, which coats 90% of music in sugar) and all the cool kids suddenly follow him like blindmen. I'm not saying it's not possible not to like this, but saying it's sugar-coated? Gimme a break. That means every non-extreme metal band is sugar-coated.

Written by Milena on 26.01.2012 at 11:31

Puh-lease. One person goes overexagerating in comparing this album to something sugar-coated (if melodies are sugar coated, let's all go listen to grindcore!) and all the cool kids suddenly follow him like blindmen. I'm not saying it's not possible not to like this, but saying it's sugar-coated? Gimme a break. That means every non-extreme metal band is sugar-coated.

I'd rather say this is cheese-coated (thus, salty) rather than sugary.

And massively overrated to boot.

Written by Slayer666 on 26.01.2012 at 16:03

I'd rather say this is cheese-coated (thus, salty) rather than sugary.

And massively overrated to boot.

I believe the both camps are exaggerating. Really. If I listened to something hyped but not relevant to my interests, I'd pretty much say it's overrated too. Not that it isn't. But the amounts of both the people who hung onto this because someone told them it's the best shit in the world and now they believe it and the ones who saw the hype, put on their "huge critic" top hat and dissected this music without a trace of emotion to proclaim that it's pure bullshit are pretty much destroying every opportunity that somebody approaches this (or Time) with a clean slate in the future. Guess we have the first camp to blame for that. But it still makes me sick.

Ya, it's rated high. That means it's overrated. But I don't see what good does it bring to be the 57575757th person to criticize it. Except for the self-satisfaction of being a person who slanders something that a lot of other people like, which makes 57575757 special snowflakes.

I'm not targeting you personally with my speech, but I'm really tired of everyone in metal taking polar opposite sides over and over again and thinking they're so special for being critical/fan. Are we gonna make Lulu jokes until 2020? Are we gonna slander/worship Wintersun til the rest of eternity? When are we ever gonna stop being so goddamn boring? When are we gonna stop glorifying our opinions?

Written by Milena on 26.01.2012 at 16:22

Written by Slayer666 on 26.01.2012 at 16:03

I'd rather say this is cheese-coated (thus, salty) rather than sugary.

And massively overrated to boot.

I believe the both camps are exaggerating. Really. If I listened to something hyped but not relevant to my interests, I'd pretty much say it's overrated too. Not that it isn't. But the amounts of both the people who hung onto this because someone told them it's the best shit in the world and now they believe it and the ones who saw the hype, put on their "huge critic" top hat and dissected this music without a trace of emotion to proclaim that it's pure bullshit are pretty much destroying every opportunity that somebody approaches this (or Time) with a clean slate in the future. Guess we have the first camp to blame for that. But it still makes me sick.

Ya, it's rated high. That means it's overrated. But I don't see what good does it bring to be the 57575757th person to criticize it. Except for the self-satisfaction of being a person who slanders something that a lot of other people like, which makes 57575757 special snowflakes.

I'm not targeting you personally with my speech, but I'm really tired of everyone in metal taking polar opposite sides over and over again and thinking they're so special for being critical/fan. Are we gonna make Lulu jokes until 2020? Are we gonna slander/worship Wintersun til the rest of eternity? When are we ever gonna stop being so goddamn boring? When are we gonna stop glorifying our opinions?

That's a risky assumption to make, that those who don't like the album have to belong to the more negative of these two poles. Perhaps someone genuinely dislikes the album, their opinion might coincide with the 'Wintersun is overrated' camp but it isn't a fair generalisation to make that they have all donned those "huge critic" top hats.

But I completely agree with you about the two opinions of 'masterpiece' and 'shite' being repeatedly expressed, unneccessary if you ask me. But with the popularity of this album isn't it only expected that such ridiculously opposing opinions arise? I do think the whole polarization thing occurs in a ridiculous way with this album (at least on this website), so I can understand your frustration. I discovered this album myself from here, so I can say that the two poles were immediately obvious, despite the high rating.

Written by R'Vannith on 26.01.2012 at 17:15

That's a risky assumption to make, that those who don't like the album have to belong to the more negative of these two poles. Perhaps someone genuinely dislikes the album, their opinion might coincide with the 'Wintersun is overrated' camp but it isn't a fair generalisation to make that they have all donned those "huge critic" top hats.

But I completely agree with you about the two opinions of 'masterpiece' and 'shite' being repeatedly expressed, unneccessary if you ask me. But with the popularity of this album isn't it only expected that such ridiculously opposing opinions arise? I do think the whole polarization thing occurs in a ridiculous way with this album (at least on this website), so I can understand your frustration. I discovered this album myself from here, so I can say that the two poles were immediately obvious, despite the high rating.

Well, it is also assumed that everyone that gave a ten to this album is a blind fanboy who holds Jari as his God, and I can assure you not everyone is. But I didn't suggest that, it probably just came off like that. Maybe I'm just bitter about it because I only utter the word "overrated" when I judge something I usually like and something of value I'm familiar with. If the Metallica albums do nothing for me, I won't go around and claim they're overrated. I can say I dislike it, or I don't get it, but the idea that it is overrated just because the Joe Public likes it more than I do doesn't cut it for me. So the idea that black/doom/thrash metal fans who dislike this type of metal listen to this because of the hype, and, of course, dislike it, and then claim it's overrated is a bit crap to me. Music is only good if it matches your soul and if you invest yourself emotionally in it. You can't just cold-heartedly put an album on.

And of course there is the Captain Obvious argument. As a person who does like this album very much and who played it a lot since 2009, I do say it's overrated. How could it not be, when a lot of people claim it's close to perfect? Something so wildly acclaimed is overrated by definition; and everyone posts about expecting their arguments are pure discovery to the readers, while they actually are not. So is with everything here. Check out any Metallica news, full of those "Metallica sucks, Lulu sucks, Metallica sold out, Lars Ulrich sucks monkey balls"... no shit, Sherlocks? I admit taking part in it every once in a while, but I won't do it any more, because, honestly, if we can't get past spamming every thread with some redundant opinions, the metal community pretty much blows.

Edit: My posts come off as "whether you really like or dislike something, it's pointless to argue about it", and while it is to some extent true, I'd like to add something else: arguing about whether an album is awesomely good or awesomely bad, justified or not, based on judgements of the heart or judgements on the head, has a time and a place - in a single thread, in the year of its release. Not all over the forums 8 years after.

Written by Milena on 26.01.2012 at 17:48
I only utter the word "overrated" when I judge something I usually like and something of value I'm familiar with. If the Metallica albums do nothing for me, I won't go around and claim they're overrated. I can say I dislike it, or I don't get it, but the idea that it is overrated just because the Joe Public likes it more than I do doesn't cut it for me. So the idea that black/doom/thrash metal fans who dislike this type of metal listen to this because of the hype, and, of course, dislike it, and then claim it's overrated is a bit crap to me.

I call bullshit here. There's no wrong in saying that something is overrated and at the same time disliking the record. People tend to forget that overrated and underrated are supposed to be objective words... No matter your personal opinion of the album's quality. If you don't say those words for albums you don't like... that's only your call.

Written by X-Ray Rod on 26.01.2012 at 18:02

I call bullshit here. There's no wrong in saying that something is overrated and at the same time disliking the record. People tend to forget that overrated and underrated are supposed to be objective words... No matter your personal opinion of the album's quality.

Yeah, but if you don't see any positive side about anything, then you can't approach it from both angles in attempt to judge its quality (although you can only judge quality of music up to some extent). Furthermore, people who dislike something often do not wish to immerse themselves in it further and try to figure it out. I'm not saying this album in particular is some deep shit you have to study for years, but the more you invest your brain and heart into something, the more you understand. Then you can try and think of all the positives and the negatives.

But maybe that's just me. I'm beginning to think that overrated and underrated are silly words which should not be used as an argument, just like "good" and "bad". Because it is only natural that not everyone will find the same values in works of art, and that the fact that some minority likes/dislikes something automatically makes it overrated/underrated to that minority. Even the stuff I'm doing makes no sense, because, how can you value a work of art? Even if I like this to a certain extent, I can't claim that my opinion about an album is valid and that the people who claim this is perfect are wrong. I mean, they are wrong, because nothing is ever perfect... unless to an individual. Whether something is good or bad is entirely up to you.

Written by Milena on 26.01.2012 at 18:17

Written by X-Ray Rod on 26.01.2012 at 18:02

I call bullshit here. There's no wrong in saying that something is overrated and at the same time disliking the record. People tend to forget that overrated and underrated are supposed to be objective words... No matter your personal opinion of the album's quality.

Yeah, but if you don't see any positive side about anything, then you can't approach it from both angles in attempt to judge its quality (although you can only judge quality of music up to some extent). Furthermore, people who dislike something often do not wish to immerse themselves in it further and try to figure it out.

Meh, I think you can be very good at ignoring your own opinion in order to pass judgement if something has been way too hyped or not... It's not an herculean task to do, the problem is that most people think too high of themselves so if it's not of their liking it must be hyped.. Which is off course: Bullshit.

So I really don't agree with "then you can't approach it from both angles". This is what separates critics from just bashing because you CAN do that.

Written by X-Ray Rod on 26.01.2012 at 18:21

Meh, I think you can be very good at ignoring your own opinion in order to pass judgement if something has been way too hyped or not... It's not an herculean task to do, the problem is that most people think too high of themselves so if it's not of their liking it must be hyped.. Which is off course: Bullshit.

So I really don't agree with "then you can't approach it from both angles".

Well good job to you then, but I'm getting more and more skeptic about this, to the point that I refuse to say "this is good" or "this is bad" completely. Even in reviews, I will from now on just try to describe how something sounds like and whether it provoked an emotional response or not, which I sometimes fail in doing, but those are my best reviews because I'm 100% behind them.

A world where everyone would say "I like this because of *reasons*" is a world I'd very much like to live in, as absurd as it sounds. No good, no bad. Just like/dislike.

Written by Milena on 26.01.2012 at 18:25
Well good job to you then, but I'm getting more and more skeptic about this, to the point that I refuse to say "this is good" or "this is bad" completely.

Hhahahahha , I'll play once again the existencial card here Nah, just kidding.... You have to udnerstand that when you say this is good/bad, you are by default giving your opinion, nothign wrong with that. Refusing to tell your own opinion strikes me as... I dunno, kind of weak.

Written by Milena on 26.01.2012 at 17:48

Written by R'Vannith on 26.01.2012 at 17:15

That's a risky assumption to make, that those who don't like the album have to belong to the more negative of these two poles. Perhaps someone genuinely dislikes the album, their opinion might coincide with the 'Wintersun is overrated' camp but it isn't a fair generalisation to make that they have all donned those "huge critic" top hats.

But I completely agree with you about the two opinions of 'masterpiece' and 'shite' being repeatedly expressed, unneccessary if you ask me. But with the popularity of this album isn't it only expected that such ridiculously opposing opinions arise? I do think the whole polarization thing occurs in a ridiculous way with this album (at least on this website), so I can understand your frustration. I discovered this album myself from here, so I can say that the two poles were immediately obvious, despite the high rating.

Well, it is also assumed that everyone that gave a ten to this album is a blind fanboy who holds Jari as his God, and I can assure you not everyone is. But I didn't suggest that, it probably just came off like that. Maybe I'm just bitter about it because I only utter the word "overrated" when I judge something I usually like and something of value I'm familiar with. If the Metallica albums do nothing for me, I won't go around and claim they're overrated. I can say I dislike it, or I don't get it, but the idea that it is overrated just because the Joe Public likes it more than I do doesn't cut it for me. So the idea that black/doom/thrash metal fans who dislike this type of metal listen to this because of the hype, and, of course, dislike it, and then claim it's overrated is a bit crap to me. Music is only good if it matches your soul and if you invest yourself emotionally in it. You can't just cold-heartedly put an album on.

And of course there is the Captain Obvious argument. As a person who does like this album very much and who played it a lot since 2009, I do say it's overrated. How could it not be, when a lot of people claim it's close to perfect? Something so wildly acclaimed is overrated by definition; and everyone posts about expecting their arguments are pure discovery to the readers, while they actually are not. So is with everything here. Check out any Metallica news, full of those "Metallica sucks, Lulu sucks, Metallica sold out, Lars Ulrich sucks monkey balls"... no shit, Sherlocks? I admit taking part in it every once in a while, but I won't do it any more, because, honestly, if we can't get past spamming every thread with some redundant opinions, the metal community pretty much blows.

Edit: My posts come off as "whether you really like or dislike something, it's pointless to argue about it", and while it is to some extent true, I'd like to add something else: arguing about whether an album is awesomely good or awesomely bad, justified or not, based on judgements of the heart or judgements on the head, has a time and a place - in a single thread, in the year of its release. Not all over the forums 8 years after.

Hmm.. well to be honest I just ignore any talk of whether things are overrated or not and just listen to the music. People can bicker and bullshit all they like as far as I'm concerned, in the end it doesn't really have an impact on your listening experience does it? Even if it does it's their experience that they may be inhibiting, not your own. And while it might be painful to watch what appears to be a bunch of trend hopping idiots clutter up a thread we have to be careful not to make judgement on all posts, allocating them to the 'overrated' or 'godly masterpiece' sides of things. Some posts may have more to them than you might suspect. But simple comments like 'overrated album is overrated' and whatnot are obviously one thing, completely useless, especially, as you say, in a thread for an album as old as this one.

Written by Milena on 26.01.2012 at 18:17

Whether something is good or bad is entirely up to you.

It really isn't any more complicated than this.
If someone wants to use terms like 'overrated' to describe something that's up them. Personally its something I also stay well clear of, it holds little weight in my eyes when discussing music.

Written by X-Ray Rod on 26.01.2012 at 18:28

You have to udnerstand that when you say this is good/bad, you are by default giving your opinion, nothign wrong with that. Refusing to tell your own opinion strikes me as... I dunno, kind of weak.

Yeah, but "good/bad" are value judgements, and "like/dislike" are opinions. I see them as such. When I post my opinion about what something does for me, I'll say I like/dislike it.

This is more of a linguistic dispute if anything, I prefer using one term and some others prefer using other terms. And I'm angry at the fact that people won't do it my way, but both ways have their advantages; the "good/bad" world may lead to flame wars, but in "like/dislike" world would be hardly any discussion at all. Which makes the forums redundant.

Written by R'Vannith on 26.01.2012 at 18:30

And while it might be painful to watch what appears to be a bunch of trend hopping idiots clutter up a thread we have to be careful not to make judgement on all posts, allocating them to the 'overrated' or 'godly masterpiece' sides of things. Some posts may have more to them than you might suspect.

Point taken sir. I'll try not to generalize in the future.

Written by Milena on 26.01.2012 at 18:36

Written by X-Ray Rod on 26.01.2012 at 18:28

You have to udnerstand that when you say this is good/bad, you are by default giving your opinion, nothign wrong with that. Refusing to tell your own opinion strikes me as... I dunno, kind of weak.

Yeah, but "good/bad" are value judgements, and "like/dislike" are opinions. I see them as such. When I post my opinion about what something does for me, I'll say I like/dislike it.

I dunno... For me when I say "This is awful/brillant" it goes without saying that it's just me. To me that's basic conversation logic.

Written by X-Ray Rod on 26.01.2012 at 18:39

To me that's basic conversation logic.

Ah, but as many smart people said, common sense isn't so common and some people DO believe that they are judges of art when they talk about things like these, so that's when things get messy. I've updated my previous post.

Written by Milena on 26.01.2012 at 18:42
some people DO believe that they are judges of art when they talk about things like these, so that's when things get messy.

Well, I did mention that in one of my previous posts. I usually stay the fuck away from those people... If I can't do that, I just call them on their shit every time.

Written by X-Ray Rod on 26.01.2012 at 18:45

Well, I did mention that in one of my previous posts. I usually stay the fuck away from those people... If I can't do that, I just call them on their shit every time.

I can be like that for large periods of time but time and again I explode. Probably not a forum person.

Anyway, to conclude - newbies to Wintersun, stay the fuck away from threads like these where everyone is either hyp-praising it or slandering it without any explanation and form your own opinions.

Written by X-Ray Rod on 26.01.2012 at 18:28

Written by Milena on 26.01.2012 at 18:25
Well good job to you then, but I'm getting more and more skeptic about this, to the point that I refuse to say "this is good" or "this is bad" completely.

Hhahahahha , I'll play once again the existencial card here Nah, just kidding.... You have to udnerstand that when you say this is good/bad, you are by default giving your opinion, nothign wrong with that. Refusing to tell your own opinion strikes me as... I dunno, kind of weak.

Particular ways of expressing opinions also appear weak and redundant. Weaker in fact than not having voiced your opinion in the first place. When 500 people have already posted about this album in it's status as 'masterpiece' I'm hardly going to stop at post number 467 and say FUCK ME! Really! A Masterpiece you say?!

To be fair though it's a forum, your're bound to hear the same thing over and again for the popular stuff.

*looks at the fire he helped start, slowly and quietly backs away*

Written by Slayer666 on 26.01.2012 at 20:35

*looks at the fire he helped start, slowly and quietly backs away*

*Joins him*

Awesome album. I still enjoy listening to it while waiting for the new one.

Children of Bodom. on a LOT of steroids.