Written by Mosquiller on 13.07.2007 at 12:22

Written by Black Winter on 13.07.2007 at 01:09

Ok, what's next, you are gonna come out of the screen and punch me??

we're not fighting; we're discussing.
this is FORUM, not court of justice !
good luck

I think you need to know that, not me, i always talk and discuss in peace,show me one thing that i said that is agressive, while you and your friend are just attacking,you attack Islam, and he attacks Arabs,and i can't even start replying,i can only talk, i can't fight through the Keyboard like you guys do

Written by Black Winter on 13.07.2007 at 12:54

Written by Mosquiller on 13.07.2007 at 12:22

Written by Black Winter on 13.07.2007 at 01:09

Ok, what's next, you are gonna come out of the screen and punch me??

we're not fighting; we're discussing.
this is FORUM, not court of justice !
good luck

I think you need to know that, not me, i always talk and discuss in peace,show me one thing that i said that is agressive, while you and your friend are just attacking,you attack Islam, and he attacks Arabs,and i can't even start replying,i can only talk, i can't fight through the Keyboard like you guys do

@ I don't like it either when you mock Muhammad over and over again => you lied ! i didnt mock muhammad.
@ just to know, mr arrasted fo long hair. => something like sarcasm.
@ but people like you with no reason no logic really piss me off. => insulting and a little agression.
@ Ok, what's next, you are gonna come out of the screen and punch me?? => agressive like an action movie. (<= just kidding)
i hope our discussion won't be ineffective.
and if it is ineffective, lets fight; i'm gonna come to your room through your monitor !!! ( kidding here too ) {these "kidding"s mean joking, not mocking}.

@DoOIViETAL: If you like kidding, walk away, this topic is supposed to be serious. Thanks.

Quote:
- What kind of action should different big nations and unions (UN, USA, EU, etc.) actually take in the different situations that are happening over there?

.
Interesting question, but alas, there's nothing to do, it's unfortunately beyond control. From first, the fact of invading Palestine wasn't justified. Plucking out the terrorist network, destroying the terrorist infrastructure, attacking terrorist nests (note the total dehumanisation involved in every one of these phrases): the words are repeated so often that they have therefore given Israel the right to do what it has wanted to do, which in fact is to destroy Palestine with as much damage, as much destruction, killing, humiliation, vandalism, purposeless but overwhelming technological violence as possible.

You want peace throughout the middle-east? Well, Israel has to do only one thing, ONLY ONE THING...LEAVE PALESTINE ALONE. For god's sake, leave them alone!!!!!!

Quote:
On who's side are you? Israel's or Palestine's? Why?

Well, Palestine is now let by a jerk, and that's also the case of Israel. I suppose that all of you agree with me Israel's government is the evil in this story, because they should'nt have from first invaded Palestine, now Palestinians have the right to defend their country, it's their duty to do that, so we can't blame them. Therefore, I'm with Palestine.

Quote:
What should be done on Iran? How could we be sure of the true intentions of Iran's nuclear plans?

The US accuses Iran of cynically pursuing nuclear weapons. Okay, maybe it's true, maybe it's not peaceful, but I think in my view that the US should not be so worried, because it's not the grave threat of Iran. for some illogical reasons, Iran hates everyone who says 'I'm Arab", why? I've already say why, for some illogical reasons. Iran's nulcear plans aren't peaceful, at least for the Arabs. Iran wants to dominate the middle-east, or should I say the Arabs, they are not planning to nuke the US or Israel, forget it.

Quote:
What do you think about Iraq's current situation? Was Saddams death penalty justified?

Here's the question I love the most, thank you. Are you going to Wacken Open Air? no? well you can go for another fest if you are so far away from Germany, it's Iraq's GOREFEST. No one could stop the fury of Iraq's Sunnites, it's merely worst than Israel/Palestine case. Sorry but there's absolutely nothing to do, except of course that the US leaves Iraq, it's the only and the best thing to do.

Now about The former president of Iraq, Saddam Hussein. Did he kill? yes, did he torture? yes, did he destroy? yes, but Is Saddam Hussein a man with weapons of mass destruction that endangered Americans? No, of course no. President Bush officially took the U.S. into the Iraq War on 3/19/03, citing Saddam Hussein as a grave threat, a man with weapons of mass destruction that endangered Americans. Within a few months, Americans began learning that this charge was false. Saddam possessed no significant weapons of mass destruction, or at least a corps of seekers found none anywhere they searched. Therefore the charge that he was a grave threat also was false. How fantastic that the President and many other of his officials could have made so many false statements!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Therefore, Saddam Hussein's execution wasn't justified at all.

Quote:
Would you consider peace in the Middle-East as a realistic dream?

The Middle-East is turning to a war field. A realistic dream? Hè hè, yeah why not, if it was a fairytale...It could possible.

@rivers dancing, my friend ...
this post that you have sent, shows that you didn't undersand anything. or didn't read our posts.
or maybe like your funny friend don't know IR. ...no, that is not InfraRed ... that is Islamic Republic ....
and all you told is about IR (ISLAMIC REPULIC) ... not about me? im not in israel ... my goverment is in there, and i do NOT beleave my goverment ... and also i do NOT have power to remove this goverment. no IRANIAN likes to make fight in israel.
about nuclear planns. agian, you cannot undrestand that ISLAMIC REPULIC OF IRAN's GOVERMENT is doing it ... not ARIYAN IRANIAN people.....
you do not know that Saddam killed Iranians about 8 years. and then AMERICA was helping him with his NUCLEAR BOMB ... motherfucker


THIS IS POLICITS ... you cannot undrestand. but what im sure that is many country like IRIRAN are puppets in Us' hands.

IR.....................................................................................................................................
reread my post, you and your funy friend, and if you were really funny,u would understand it was a joke.

the thing is THAT OMID SAID "I was talking about IR not Iran", i said that was the same.

Hmmm this topic is getting quite ridiculous and is very close to be closed for good if you people don't straighten up and start behave like adults.

@Black Winter
IR is not Iran, IR is the gov of Iran, Iran is the people of Iran. Especially in religious "dictatorship" like Iran the gov doesn't represent the people but the religious values and manners so Omid was correct when he said that IR is not Iran.

Written by Angelique on 13.07.2007 at 21:09

Hmmm this topic is getting quite ridiculous and is very close to be closed for good if you people don't straighten up and start behave like adults.

@Black Winter
IR is not Iran, IR is the gov of Iran, Iran is the people of Iran. Especially in religious "dictatorship" like Iran the gov doesn't represent the people but the religious values and manners so Omid was correct when he said that IR is not Iran.

thanks, finally someone realized my purpose.

@ Kariasakis7 : i dont like to see the day my country is under attack; but i said thats the only way "IR" becomes extinct.
no revolution is possible @ the moment.
@ Black Winter : i know you were joking funny bunny. Hamird was joking too.
as angelique said : start behave like adults.

=>If We All Die One By One, It Is Better Than Giving The Country To The Foreigners<=

@ Angelique and Omid:

I truly know what was written in Omid's post and i'm pretty sure that he edited it, he added this sentence"and don't name it Iran", but fortunately he still didn't earase this "IR can be destroyed just by military attack.", he earlier said that doesn't want to see his country under attack, like when US comes, it will do a surgery when IR gets destroyed and Iran stays for the people, yeah..quite possible, we have a shining example in Iraq.
Man take it from me, Revolution is always possible, if, like you say, The Gov is seperated from the people.

@ Angelique:
i hope you read omid's and Hamird posts, okay Omid said "shitty islam" in his very first post in AlQaeda topic, we can forgive him he was new, but, Hamird "motherfuckers (ARABS)", is clearly breathing hate out there, the problem with those people, is that they force you to answer even when it's sarcasm, off topic, or just hatered that you can't answer with slow and clear logic so i can't even start discussing the situation of Persia when arabs came there, or what Arabs brought to the whole world and every country that they got into, and from now on, i won't answer hatered.

i talked about Iran coz i just wanted to make sure that you know that you are talking about which country? i just gave you a little history of IRAN to know what was is it? and what have ARABS done to this country?
and now ARABS are our enemies. ...
WE DON'T WANT TO FIGHT ... WE ARE DISCUSSING ...
but untill you sit in Tunisia and watch the news you cannot understand the fact ... once you should come to IRAN and see what is the situation of people. then you will see that you was wrong. WE CANNOT REVOLT ...
are you beleave me when i say that US HELPS IRAN? so until when US doesn't want this GOV wont change ...
If America really was against Iran, and Bush really was worry about people's rights in Iran. he would do the same thing that he had done in AFGANISTAN and IRAQ.
and at last ... i told once. i ignore arabs. so i dont need you to forgive me.

@ Winter Night :i didnt edit that. "and dont name it iran" means dont call it(IR) iran.
i said that if there is a way to erase IR, thats the military attack of a powerful country like america.
also the commen people will die in war and i'm worried about that.
you don't know IR !!! i said revolution is not possible; come and see !!!
=> if i want to edit anything that i've written (exept for some solecism, ... errors), i would edit "Shitty Islam". i'm not afraid of what i've said. as you said, that was my first post.

Written by Hamird on 14.07.2007 at 20:22

i talked about Iran coz i just wanted to make sure that you know that you are talking about which country? i just gave you a little history of IRAN to know what was is it? and what have ARABS done to this country?
and now ARABS are our enemies. ...
WE DON'T WANT TO FIGHT ... WE ARE DISCUSSING ...
but untill you sit in Tunisia and watch the news you cannot understand the fact ... once you should come to IRAN and see what is the situation of people. then you will see that you was wrong. WE CANNOT REVOLT ...
are you beleave me when i say that US HELPS IRAN? so until when US doesn't want this GOV wont change ...
If America really was against Iran, and Bush really was worry about people's rights in Iran. he would do the same thing that he had done in AFGANISTAN and IRAQ.
and at last ... i told once. i ignore arabs. so i dont need you to forgive me.

Your posts, as always, are not clear, but i'll try to answer what i can:

-When the revolution happened in Iran, the IR said that they want to 'send' the revolution to their neighbours, that's what made Iran and Arabs 'enemies', and that's why Saddam started the fucking war.
-Revolution: i'm not in the middle east so i can't talk about it, is Tunisia really faaaar from the middle east??? Are people like you and Omid a majority or a minority in Iran?? if u are a majority, i don't see why u can't revolt.unless you're cowards (taught Arabs how to fight) or minority.
-"are you beleave me when i say that US HELPS IRAN": can't really understand your point
-"and at last ... i told once. i ignore arabs. so i dont need you to forgive me" : who told u that i will lol?? and by the way, i am not Arab(would be proud), i am from the Amazigh.
at last, keep fighting bro, fight IR fight US fight UK fight Arabs, you will definetly win

as I saw in omids(DoOIViETAL) profile... one of his most favor books is _Boof-E-Koor_

that means _the blind owl_ one of the most famous Iranian story books by _sadegh hedaiat_

the best and last Iranian writer who died something about 50 years ago(I don't know

exactly).he was filled with hate against Arabs and Islam.as you can read in the book,he

calls Iranian people "rejaleha" that is a Arabic word that means"guys".then in other part

of the book he explain them like the mouths that are connected to the guts that are

connected to penises!!!!.yes! he is definitely talking about Muslims,especially Iranian

Muslims.the saints that hides many satans.
as I have read in all of his books and review about him,he was extremely against

Islam,but it does not mean that he was against the god!!as I read in reviews about him he

was so interested in Zoroaster religion,an ancient religion in Sasanian age before Islam

in Iran that was based on three rules:1-good talking.2-good thinking.3-good acting.
if you cant exactly understand I explain you that he was something like a pagan(not

exactly pagan,because iranaians have already believed just one god trough all ages.)who

just believe the ancient religion of his ancestors.
however... if you like to know more about him you can easily find his most famous book

(the blind owl) translated to English.(i think thats the only Iranian story book

translated to English)
and in the end if you like to know middle-east(especial Iran) you must read sadegh

hedaiat books.because this people are the same as 100 years ago in sadeghs age,doesnt

matter what technology have done with them.
excuse me for bad English
I LOVE IRAN
I HATE ISLAM
I HATE MUSLIM

sorry didnt read your postes

of course im in the israeli side- im isreali
the palastins are right od the demand for their own state but their want too many big and important territoys that we just can give away and for our own safty
the islam and the arabs are so blind and dont care about anyone and do everything for preserve the islam and their faith
Iran is an extream country that wanna KILL like the NAZI(!) everyone that is no muslam and I mean everyone- USA, England,Israel,Japan,France,Germany and just anyone! and most of the muslim world are too!
and they supporting the palastins??how the fucking hell?? they Bomb us(and the whole western world) a NUCLEAR BOMB and like that to solv the problems with us and to help the palastins, DAMN IF THEY BOMB US WITH THE NUCLEAR BOMB THEY WILL KILL THE PALASTINS TOO!!!

The Arabs just blind and dont wanna to talk about the situation and dont wanna to get a compromise
they are gonna lead to the third world war!

!!WORLD OPEN YOUR EYES!!

what a dramatic post GothHorzon with THis KiND OF wriTING...
Palestinian territories are less than 10% of the whole historical land of palestine, you they want too much ? How? is it reasonnable to have a Palestinian country that is just two seperate pices of land, one in the west and the other in the east?
This land is palestine, jewish gangs led by that one eyed pirate came from everywhere around the world ,they killed palestinians and kicked them out of their homes, and created their country,and now we said Okey,Israel you are welcome to create a country on our land,just go back to the border of 67 and let refugees you kicked out go back to their homes, and peace with you will be eternal, and you refuse, thinking that maybe if you make them suffer long enough maybe they will give up their rights,well that is not gonna happen.The conclusion is that Israel is greedy as a pig,if we let go palestine they will move to lebanon,syria,jordan,egipy an iraq, to fully achieve their(so called) religious view of their full land, its in their flag, the two blue lines are the border of ISRAEL, from the Nile to the Furat in Iraq.

first of all we never killd them
were allways just defend ourself!
like in the "tarpat" and "tarpa" they allways just attcking us and most of times we didnt fight back!

2) were never killd them or kicked them out of their houses they staid in their vileges and in their houses but its now just called an Israeli territorry
and were will not give those territorys back because:
- if we will gove those territorys back the line of the terrorist will be much closer to the main citys and they will allways will bomb us like in "Sderot" that this is an Isreli city that the palastins bombing and no one cares and they are killing and destroying
-this is a territorys that we have won on a war that they attack first!
-our population is too big and were cant give thos territorys because it will be too crowded.

and by the way with Iran:
few days ago that was an a rock concert in Iran and their "police" was arrested thos people!

To all the Israelis here, while everyone here understands the predicament you're in, what with all your neighbouring nations wanting you to cease existing, one can hardly say that the Palestinians (and by extension, the Iranians, the Iraqis, the Lebanese, the Syrians and whoever else) are to blame for everything. Somehow, I get the feeling that Israel, while protecting itself, often makes rods for its own back. I'm not saying the Arabs and Iranians are right, but there are always two sides to the story.

Written by Judas on 12.08.2007 at 16:05

To all the Israelis here, while everyone here understands the predicament you're in, what with all your neighbouring nations wanting you to cease existing, one can hardly say that the Palestinians (and by extension, the Iranians, the Iraqis, the Lebanese, the Syrians and whoever else) are to blame for everything. Somehow, I get the feeling that Israel, while protecting itself, often makes rods for its own back. I'm not saying the Arabs and Iranians are right, but there are always two sides to the story.

sorry didnt understand your point..

Written by GothHorizon on 12.08.2007 at 16:58

Written by Judas on 12.08.2007 at 16:05

To all the Israelis here, while everyone here understands the predicament you're in, what with all your neighbouring nations wanting you to cease existing, one can hardly say that the Palestinians (and by extension, the Iranians, the Iraqis, the Lebanese, the Syrians and whoever else) are to blame for everything. Somehow, I get the feeling that Israel, while protecting itself, often makes rods for its own back. I'm not saying the Arabs and Iranians are right, but there are always two sides to the story.

sorry didnt understand your point..

What I mean is that your situation is not solely the fault of the Palestinians and their allies. Israel (and the United States) cannot be held totally blameless in the escalation of conflict over the years.

GothHorizon:
And why would they still attack you after you give back those lands?All arab countries,Palestinians(including Hamas) have agreed that if Israel gives back those land,and let the refugees back, there will be eternal peace and arabs will fully confess Israel.But the problem is that Israel still ignore all the arab,american,european proposals of peace...And i can't believe you say Israel didn't kick them out(the refugees),my doctor here is a palestinian refugee,atually most of palestinians were kicked out espatially to Lebanese and syrian camps,or maybe you didn't heard of that??

I, like Judas think that there is two sides of the story,but I am convicned that the Palestinian one is a just case.

Written by Black Winter on 12.08.2007 at 19:50

GothHorizon:
And why would they still attack you after you give back those lands?All arab countries,Palestinians(including Hamas) have agreed that if Israel gives back those land,and let the refugees back, there will be eternal peace and arabs will fully confess Israel.But the problem is that Israel still ignore all the arab,american,european proposals of peace...And i can't believe you say Israel didn't kick them out(the refugees),my doctor here is a palestinian refugee,atually most of palestinians were kicked out espatially to Lebanese and syrian camps,or maybe you didn't heard of that??

I, like Judas think that there is two sides of the story,but I am convicned that the Palestinian one is a just case.

ther is allways will be a problem with that even if we returne those land because it will be allways a argument on the land of Jerusalem.
and yes we kick some of them out
but ther are arabian villages like "Kfar Kasem" and much more and they do have places

Written by Black Winter on 12.08.2007 at 19:50

GothHorizon:
And why would they still attack you after you give back those lands?All arab countries,Palestinians(including Hamas) have agreed that if Israel gives back those land,and let the refugees back, there will be eternal peace and arabs will fully confess Israel.But the problem is that Israel still ignore all the arab,american,european proposals of peace...And i can't believe you say Israel didn't kick them out(the refugees),my doctor here is a palestinian refugee,atually most of palestinians were kicked out espatially to Lebanese and syrian camps,or maybe you didn't heard of that??

Hah, I see what you mean, but Hamas is the most stubborn and adamently anti Israel party and they don't even identify Israel as a country...when Israel committed the disengagement plan ( which you never hear about because the media is unintrested ) the first thing that Hamas did was set Kassams and fire at places that were closer to them since they had successfullly ( and the international community ) pressured Israel into withdrawing their citizens; which harvested ( literally, a desert, into a town, there was NOTHING there before ) and you say they are willing to have peace when Israel gives back land? Did you forget about the disengagement?

...they are incapable of any proggessive thinking or negotiations, and you cannot negotiate with a party that wants to annihilate your country, its unheard of. Think about WWII, and all the land lost over in that conflict? The Korean war? In all of these examples you see countries attacking each other, and when they lose, they retreat and their country loses land, and you dont see those European countries sending suicide bombers and using religion to entice hate...I agree with you ( judas ) that the side is not black and white. But I want you guys to look at these examples because its a cycle of violence; hence ITS NOT JUST ISRAEL that is ignoring peace proposals. Its so aggravating and IMO unrealistic when people say that Israel is stubborn and aggressive when Arafat is on the radio telling people to march to Jerusalem to take the Aqsa by FORCE. Jerusalem should be wiped off the map so none of the religions can fight and spill blood over it.

And the arab countries are not without Palestinian blood either on their hands, think how much Palestinian refugees died in Jordan in black september...and saudi arabia gives palestine 2,000,000 dollars as a donation? That is an insult....Everyone should be ashamed of themselves. All in all, the arab countires dont care about the Palestinians..

Arabs don't care for Palestine,yes I agree,espatially the gulf countries they actually don't want any thing to disturb their easy money coming,other arab countries are afraid of the US beause they still have debts,and why not admit it.there's no good on relying on arabs because there is no arabs today,there is the middle east and north africa, which can't be more devided,and they have a history of wrong decisions..

Yes Hamas agreed on the american Road Map,and they saaid they wouldn't confess Israel and recvieve nothing back because it's not right,and please don't say the disengagement because while Israel did that there is that wall eating the west bank and by the way Hamas doesn't talk about wiping Israel at all..And nobody asked Israel to give Gaza coz there's no agreement on that there's only about the 67 lands so that's why the Kassams continue according to Hamas oz they still did't get what they want, Do you think that what is left as palestinian territories are fit for an independent country?

Finally about Jerusalem, Palestinians said clearly that they want it devided,they only want the east jerusalem,no?

Nice map...but I still stand by what I say. You can't attack another country, lose, retreat, lose land, and then expect the country to give that land back. Especially after towns and cities were established and built on that land. Its completely absurd, and using terrorrism is not going to make things any better for them....yeah, Hamas is still shooting Kassams, because obviously they want as much as they can get and have oather JIHAD against Israel. So you admitted that Hamas are a bunch of primates because they obviously are self destructive in the most idiotic way...what kind of cause burns down humanitarian aid buildings and expect the world to listen to them? So Hamas never talked about wiping Israel off the map? Hmmm...such quotes like "drive the jews into the sea" or sheikhs saying that "when we take jerusalem, every tree and rock will say 'there is a jew hiding here' so that we may slay them".

The wall was only put there after how much suicide bombings? Lets see...Israel is about 6 million people, not including the territories, and about 1,000 something civilians are confirmed dead..and thats not including thousands and thousands maimed with their legs blown off, or missing an eye..paralyzed etc. and that ratio is 6000/1....which would probably make any country build a multi billion dollar wall around areas that terrorrists are pouring out of. You don't hear about the number of people being arrested for conspiring or trying to get into Israel with a suicide belt...I don't want the wall to be there, but when I think about it, the wall is the best thing that ever happenned. I mean, there hasn't been ONE suicide attack in jerusalem since the wall was built.

Of course I want Palestine to have their own country...but its impossible, they rely too much on Israel...I mean Israel supplies water, electricity, moniters aid, and the economy is also reliant on Israeli currency.

There's no question about it, the Palestinians do need lands of their own, but they're going down the totally wrong path to get what they want. While I respect the courage that Hamas shows in repeatedly defying the USA and Israel (both of which are infinitely more powerful), I feel terrible about respecting them every time I see some Israeli marketplace blown to shreds by a suicide attack.

About those maps, well, even if Palestine becomes a proper state, I don't think it will function all that well due to the division between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank territories. To me, it brings back shades of the Partition of India in 1947, when they created East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) and West Pakistan. I know in that example the ethnicity, language and culture of the two groups was very different whereas here it's the same, but I still can't see effective communication between the two regions happening. Knowing the Palestinians (not meaning to be demeaning to anyone here, but jeez, they fight each other way too much!) there will be another war because one side of Palestine will want to be more important than the other!

Putting the things this way is not right
here is the thing, Israel is country that based its existance on taking lands from other people by force, yet, the war you talked about, doesn't justify a damn thing, because it was Israel, a country, and a popular struggle to regain their taken lands,and because they failed, you don't just take more land,and if we use Hellraizer's reasonning,that means that Syria, Jordan and Lebanon must wage a war to take their lands back, while we are trying to do is figuring out a diplomatic peaceful way out.. and even if those countries do, Palestine can't, because it's not a country that can wage war, there's only popular struggle, and here I remind that Israel was created of nothing, and when you become a neighbour or a guest, you respect the good neighbourhooding,and that definetly means no greedy taking of land and ressources or destroying the palestinian agriculture and infra-structure.

if you want to build a wall,you're free,but build on your own land not in middle of palestinian lands, man even the Lahay court found it injust.

Palestinian struggle to free their land and that is all that is left for them after the failure of diplomatic ways and wrong relying on arabs, suicide bombing is a very high way of self sacrifice, I wonder how many Israeelis would sacrifice their lives for their country, Palestinian don't have guns or arms or a unlimited american support like Israel does, what else can they do but sacrificing theirselves?
I don't know if I said it enough but Israel should be grateful that it exists in first place.

Written by Black Winter on 14.08.2007 at 20:54

Putting the things this way is not right
here is the thing, Israel is country that based its existance on taking lands from other people by force, yet, the war you talked about, doesn't justify a damn thing, because it was Israel, a country, and a popular struggle to regain their taken lands,and because they failed, you don't just take more land,and if we use Hellraizer's reasonning,that means that Syria, Jordan and Lebanon must wage a war to take their lands back, while we are trying to do is figuring out a diplomatic peaceful way out.. and even if those countries do, Palestine can't, because it's not a country that can wage war, there's only popular struggle, and here I remind that Israel was created of nothing, and when you become a neighbour or a guest, you respect the good neighbourhooding,and that definetly means no greedy taking of land and ressources or destroying the palestinian agriculture and infra-structure.

if you want to build a wall,you're free,but build on your own land not in middle of palestinian lands, man even the Lahay court found it injust.

Palestinian struggle to free their land and that is all that is left for them after the failure of diplomatic ways and wrong relying on arabs, suicide bombing is a very high way of self sacrifice, I wonder how many Israeelis would sacrifice their lives for their country, Palestinian don't have guns or arms or a unlimited american support like Israel does, what else can they do but sacrificing theirselves?
I don't know if I said it enough but Israel should be grateful that it exists in first place.

Im not saying that a country should or should not take land in a time of war or through other means...but in a situation of war, many, many countries have done the exact same in the past. That land then became living area...its not right to uproot those families who have been told they can live there by their government with all the right words, what do they ( the families ) have to do with conquering land? he just rents a shitty little apartment! Also know that alot of land was sold to israelis, christian, and diplomatic nationals since the beginning.

This is what I find contradictory of outright pro palestinians, they continue about how they want their land back when their are entirely indifferrent to the Israeli situation. The whole of the Middle have very primitive, cunning, and savage pasts...so there is no 'good neighbors'

You are talking about suicide bombings as a sacrifice, but the fact is the most common target for a recruit is the arab teenager. He is undereducated, isolated from outside ideology, and he wants to do all he can to please his family,his country, because thats all he has. That doesn't sound like a sacrifice, it sounds like the epitemy of evil. Israeli soldiers are indeed sacrificed, and most of them that die just came highschool such as the situation in lebanon. I knew the people that went there..they didn't not want to leave their family and fight in lebanon or to be sent into jenin to dismantle bombs in palestinians homes set by terrorrists. This is also a tiny country and many family men are reservists in time of war because the IDF is understaffed...big time.

Me and many like me support peace and a palestine state or solution...but the fact is, from where we are sitting, it seems that Palestine cannot exist without Israel...I have been on the Palestinian side too, IMO its all too true...supplying utilities,currency,education, and work...these are things that are scarce on the Palestinian side. Why? Because the terrorrists up above pocket all the change...( Arafat, Barghouti, Yassin )

Written by Sunioj on 25.08.2007 at 22:06


Im not saying that a country should or should not take land in a time of war or through other means...but in a situation of war, many, many countries have done the exact same in the past. That land then became living area...its not right to uproot those families who have been told they can live there by their government with all the right words, what do they ( the families ) have to do with conquering land? he just rents a shitty little apartment! Also know that alot of land was sold to israelis, christian, and diplomatic nationals since the beginning.

This is what I find contradictory of outright pro palestinians, they continue about how they want their land back when their are entirely indifferrent to the Israeli situation. The whole of the Middle have very primitive, cunning, and savage pasts...so there is no 'good neighbors'

You are talking about suicide bombings as a sacrifice, but the fact is the most common target for a recruit is the arab teenager. He is undereducated, isolated from outside ideology, and he wants to do all he can to please his family,his country, because thats all he has. That doesn't sound like a sacrifice, it sounds like the epitemy of evil. Israeli soldiers are indeed sacrificed, and most of them that die just came highschool such as the situation in lebanon. I knew the people that went there..they didn't not want to leave their family and fight in lebanon or to be sent into jenin to dismantle bombs in palestinians homes set by terrorrists. This is also a tiny country and many family men are reservists in time of war because the IDF is understaffed...big time.

Me and many like me support peace and a palestine state or solution...but the fact is, from where we are sitting, it seems that Palestine cannot exist without Israel...I have been on the Palestinian side too, IMO its all too true...supplying utilities,currency,education, and work...these are things that are scarce on the Palestinian side. Why? Because the terrorrists up above pocket all the change...( Arafat, Barghouti, Yassin )

Hellraizer I'm starting to have a feeling that you are purposely answering parts of my posts and leaving other parts,read them again you'll see.(Look I watched an interview with the Israeli president last day, I watched also the CNN's documentary on "God's Warriors" which i find by the way quite satisfying)

Palestine can exist without Israel, it did before, the saying that Palestinians depend on Israel misses explanation, as you said earlier,most of israeli infra structure was set by Palestinian workers, so Palestinians got the human basis, now still they need natural ressources,
-Palestinians usually plant olives, those olives, when the "IDF" gets into palestinian lands as a part of their daily calender, they cut them out,that's something that destroys the poor people's life as well as the national agriculture
-Investers are afraid of investing in Palestine because their investments will be under the mercy of the IDF's military machine
-Water is a very real concern for palestinians, Abu Mazen sent a protesting document to the Israeli government a couple of weeks ago about Israeli industrial dirty water getting thrown into the main water sources that go to Palestinians.

Suicide bombing is the last resort those guys have to defend theirselves and their families, don't you think that it's a human tragedy what they are doing?Do you think really people are willing to give their lives away just like that? they are zombies you say? when a person is unemployed,gets less than a dolar a day, Israeli war machine kills his brother or friend or father or baby,there's a person killed by the IDF in every Palestinian family,there is a big wall and several burrycades that seperate him from his nephews and other family members,and they feel so powerless they can't fight back they have either weak or no tools, that's when they are recruted by palestinian resistance orginizations to do attack using their bodies.Man if you really don't get that I don't understand how you ever lived in the west bank and saw what Palestinians get through daily.

It's known that some land was bought by jews and it's more clear that Palestinians in the shelters of the arab countries are way more than those who stayed in Israel or in Palestine, watch the videos about the creation of Israel and you will know what I am talking about,hell yeah they were uprooted,the Israeli government doesn't want Palestinians back even if they buy their own homes because it will make a demographic problem for them.

I know Israelis supporting peace,I know Rabin was willing to make a difference if his people didn't assassinate him,I know Israelis protesting with Palestinians and other people around the world in face of the barricades and the IDF and having a having a hard time about it,I know Israelis protesting for peace inside Israel, and everywhere around the world. But I also know that Israeli Government doesn't look at things in the right way.

most of the world Jews used to live in Arabia before Islam and after islam, many Israelis are originally from arab countries, so doesn't that say that they must live as neighbours?Do you know why there is Palestinian organizations that are out of the government, it's because Arafat when he went to Camp David and gave compromises for words from Israel,Israel didn't keep its word and was not going on the way of letting Palestinians have their country,then started Hamas,Islamic Jihad,and the Intifadas after the diplomatic ways came to a dead line.

I believe in the goodness of people you know, I believe that what everyone in this world wants at the end of the day, is to live in peace, and be happy and be around people who care about him,and that applies on Israelis, I understand the jews desire to have a country,while I don't understand why they make it this ugly bloody way.

Dude, I think you misunderstood me...I said the concept of leaders recruiting teenagers and bribing their families into sending their children to blow themselves up is the epitemy of evil. Hence the teenager, is innocent. Who is to blame for this? From a law abiding standpoint, its the leaders of the group. The people that never get their hands dirty. People do get manipulated by mixing politics and religion in the name of patriotism...there is no room for a differrent opinion, all that Palestinian society knows ( in its most isolated form i.e. refugee camps ) is what they see, and what they read. See what Im getting at?

I didn't say Israel shouldn't be good neighbors, Im saying that it is impossible that tension will deflate given the current state of politics in the middle east in relation to Israel and its neighbors, ya feel me??

Wether its a demographic problem or not, the point is that you ( not you specifically ) can't be a poser and say that you are peaceworthy and beg that Israel gives the land it seized, and shrink its population into a much smaller space, dude, that is very 'unpeaceworthy'. That doesn't make any sense, its hypocrisy...that is the point! And if you support the idea of peace, you would not wish for another family to be uprooted.

Thats not what good 'neighbors want'. I support disengagement, and giving back of land ( to a reasonable extent ) but I still stand by what I say...Palestine cannot exist without Israel, purely because Palestine as a country cannot supply certain neccessities that allow growth of the community. And that still applies till this day wether we agree with it or not.

And the people that killed Rabin...were definetly not his people, the people that killed him are yet another group of people falling victim to the euphoria of abrahamic extremism...these are jews, who compared Rabin to Hitler...because he wanted peace with Palestine. Dude, those terrorrist groups started before that...suicide bombings did not start with camp david.

A dollar a day? I could've sworn that I had a job where I received $20, but less than fortunate people in like west bank would make like...$5? That is mainly for construction..or some sort of labor. The very last sentence you wrote...that what Im saying...but for both sides. I don't believe peace is possible. Human nature is self destructive and we are reaching an even more complicated time of culture clashes, opposing ideologies and whatnot.

For the record, before the third aliyah, (In the late 30's,) the Arabs living in Palestine lived in worse conditions than most African tribes. The standards of living were the poorest in all of Asia. This is partially true because all the Palestinian landowners lived in Cairo, Damascus, Baghdad, Istanbul, etc. Almost nobody that actually lived in Palestine owned their own land.

The Jews that came in the third aliyah brought with them the working spirit that forced itself upon unwanted Palestinian marshlands and deserts. All of the land that the Jews lived on was legally bought from Arab landowners, who sold it to them because it was the meanest, crudest, hardest-to-work land in Palestine. The Jews turned that same land into farmland and vineyards and orchards.

This was all done using a mix of ingenuity, European technology, (which had been forbidden the Arabs by their Turkish overlords for many hundreds of years,) and visionary idealism. Palestinians who fraternized with Jews were disowned and abandoned. Despite this, Palestinian leaders could not entirely prevent the western technology, which they so feared their people would use to rise up against them, from being absorbed by their populace.

It was declared that Jews were evil and must be exterminated.

Haredi Jews were massacred in such places as Tzfat, Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. Secular Jews formed the Hagana to protect Jews from Arab attacks. By 1946, thousands of Jews, almost all Haredim, women and children were killed. In comparison, a few hundred Arabs had been killed, only about two score of which were the result of collateral damage.

The British consistently took the Arab side in the conflicts, declaring ceasefires when Arabs were retreating and ignoring everything when 300+ Jews died in one day. This is despite a commando Jewish Palestinian brigade that did severe damage to Rommel's Afrika corps. and Arabs all over the world declaring their support for Hitler. Arab states, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, etc. threatened to stop the oil flow to Britain if they did otherwise.

Britain still controlled around a quarter of the globe at this point. During the League of Nations council to determine whether Israel should be given over to Jewish statehood, more than two thirds of said council was British and/or Arab.

The only reason it won, was because America was quick to show popular support for the Jewish cause. That caused the USSR, which was decidedly anti-Semite, to reverse it's decision against. It wanted to get on America's good side and distance itself with Britain at the time. Then India (I think, can't recall too well, might've been Australia), still British, decided to vote against it's master. Seems Pakistan was a sore point. This caused a landslide of British colonies to start thinking for themselves and reject Britain's vote of nay.

In the end Israel scraped out a win. In the meantime, an intifada had been called. Thousands more dead. Just about every Arab country that had any influence declared that an Israeli declaration of independence would mean war. All of them proclaimed long and loud how Israel would, and I quote: "run red with rivers of the blood of the bloodthirsty Zionist propagators of Satanism".

Ben Gurion declared that any Arabs that fled would not be allowed back in and that anyone who stayed and did not draw arms would not be killed. Israel signed its declaration of independence. The war commenced. Almost all of the Arab intellectuals left the country. Much of the rest of the populace, who looked to them for guidance, fled as well. More than 70% of the war refugees never came within miles of Hagana troops.

And there's your crash course in how Israel formed. I could bring you lists and lists of pages of proofs and sources, but why bother. There's one book that goes into the history of Palestine --> Israel in depth. Read The Haj by Leon Uris.